So I am always looking for a fun deck to play and human deck have my attention right now and I am looking a naya version, but I am looking to go wide, exploit burning-tree emissary, manamorphose to get free creatures and draw cards. I have not played this deck yet but I will try to playtest it in the next day or so. It looks very powerful and interesting. I think it be fun to exploit kessig Malcontents like the elf decks do with shaman in a way. So if I can go wide with humans and collected company a kessig, no complaints here.
Kari Zev, just adds pressure by getting 2 creatures with one and menace just helps. I am for suggestions but this is my take for on humans for a naya version.
Kessig Malcontents and Shaman of the Pack are textbook win-more cards that can be good if you're ahead on board and might even secure you an otherwise impossible victory via direct damage through a locked board stall but otherwise will do very little for you when you're behind. Most Elf players currently feel that GW Elves is objectively a more competitive deck than GB Elves with Shaman.
With that said, GB Elves can make Shaman work because they go incredibly wide faster than almost any other deck and on top of that they'll run 4x Chord of Calling to tutor Shaman for a quick kill. With your Human list here you will have maybe.. 4-5 creatures down on turn 4. Malcontents could come in and deal 4-6 damage, yeah, but that's all it's going to do. A grounded 3/1 body is too fragile to reliably push any damage through so after its ETB trigger it won't do much of anything to fix your locked board state if that wasn't enough. Since humans don't have to go as "all in" as Elves and you're already in Red I think you could just run Lightning Bolt and some other burn spells and get the same game-closing reach that you want from Malcontents but with a lot more flexibility in terms of interaction and also utility when you're behind.
Hanweir Militia Captain is pretty win-more, too, and personally I would trim her but at least the value floor is a 2/2 for 2 instead of a 3/1 for 3.
Overall I'd recommend shaving your curve down a bit. You have a lot of cards that work better with more bodies on the field but don't have the token generators or 1-drop-centric curve to accomplish that quickly. Naya lists "work" because they're explosive enough to push early damage through on the the ground and then finish off with burn. Here you have some good value plays and tremendous synergy, and when you win you'll really win lol, but any disruptive midrange, control, or token deck is going to give you a lot of problems. If you want to keep the curve higher I would at least swap Hanweir Garrison in over Malcontents.
Kessig Malcontents and Shaman of the Pack are textbook win-more cards that can be good if you're ahead on board and might even secure you an otherwise impossible victory via direct damage through a locked board stall but otherwise will do very little for you when you're behind. Most Elf players currently feel that GW Elves is objectively a more competitive deck than GB Elves with Shaman.
With that said, GB Elves can make Shaman work because they go incredibly wide faster than almost any other deck and on top of that they'll run 4x Chord of Calling to tutor Shaman for a quick kill. With your Human list here you will have maybe.. 4-5 creatures down on turn 4. Malcontents could come in and deal 4-6 damage, yeah, but that's all it's going to do. A grounded 3/1 body is too fragile to reliably push any damage through so after its ETB trigger it won't do much of anything to fix your locked board state if that wasn't enough. Since humans don't have to go as "all in" as Elves and you're already in Red I think you could just run Lightning Bolt and some other burn spells and get the same game-closing reach that you want from Malcontents but with a lot more flexibility in terms of interaction and also utility when you're behind.
Hanweir Militia Captain is pretty win-more, too, and personally I would trim her but at least the value floor is a 2/2 for 2 instead of a 3/1 for 3.
Overall I'd recommend shaving your curve down a bit. You have a lot of cards that work better with more bodies on the field but don't have the token generators or 1-drop-centric curve to accomplish that quickly. Naya lists "work" because they're explosive enough to push early damage through on the the ground and then finish off with burn. Here you have some good value plays and tremendous synergy, and when you win you'll really win lol, but any disruptive midrange, control, or token deck is going to give you a lot of problems. If you want to keep the curve higher I would at least swap Hanweir Garrison in over Malcontents.
Hope that's useful, take care.
Alright I took you advice, made some changes and did some play testing. Oh my gosh this deck hits hard and it fast, give I didn't really play any decks with disruptions but I did beat Ad nausaum, bant eldrazi, some kind of affinity concept and elves. Here is the list I am working with now and I really like it so far, I haven't built a sideboard yet but so far I like what I got.
I know this is a tribal deck but it has some major synergy, with both the kari zev, skyship raider and Hanweir Garrison making tokens adds alot of power mixed with atarka's command. The one card that seems awkward is burning-tree emissary but it is pretty nice to string it together with manamorphoros then to either another creature or atarka's command. So far I think 3 collected company is pretty good. I am starting to think black would be fun with dark confident and zulaport cuthroat. Also I think some kind of spot removal might be needed like lightning bolt for the naya version. I am up for suggestions but this deck has some potential
So I've had a love of meddling mage since forever and I brewed up a mono-white humans deck that splashes for sideboard mage and counters. I just liked the idea of an aggro deck being able to prevent combo decks from racing them and control decks from casting sweepers on curve (hmm, kinda like thalia, except more precise). It just seemed like meddling mage and some counters filled in some holes that the deck had. As for the main deck, I made this deck to go as wide as possible as early as possible to take advantage of thalia's lieutenant. I'll talk about individual cards after the jump and would love any suggestions or comments.
After the obvious champion and lieutenant, the core of the deck is kytheon, boros elite, gather the townsfolk attacking synergy. There is nothing like attacking for 3 on turn 2 into a lot on turn 3. You are trying to race decks that won't interact. Apart from thalia (who is always worth it) and lieutenant, every creature is on a 1 to 1 mana basis (including gather the townsfolk).
Firstly, to address the skeptics, thalia/gather disynergy is hyped and not a big deal in this deck, at least. Let's put it this way, you'll be playing gather before thalia almost always, unless of course thalia is better against the deck. oh well, can't be sad i have a thalia in play against them!
that being said, i do only run 3 copies, but because of its legendary status only actually. this deck wants to flood the board too much to have blanks. Since i run 2 legends, eiganjo castle is a no brainer.
speaking of lands, can't run basic island, and don't need it. You can go under blood moon with both blue spells, so it shouldn't be a problem. 2 mutavault is nice, but it definitely is a spell more than it is a land in opening hands, so keep that in mind. horizon canopy is a no brainer.
I tested 2 of basically every 1 drop in my inital lists to see which ones i liked the most. Icatian javelineers are just too good. When i first started with the deck, it was just such a clean answer to infect. It may not be as needed as before the bans, but it's still important to have interaction. thraben inspector is just too good not to have. white decks never had access to a card like this.
This is chess, this ain't checkers.
These creatures allow you to pull out edges you need to go one more turn and are just the best. the last creature slot i felt did not warrant a full 4 of, so that's why mardu woe reaper and soldier of the pantheon are split. they are both good and make a noticeable impact, but they just wouldn't be good as 4 of (too niche). Woe-reaper was just HI-larious against dredge, and gave you that extra turn. Nowadays, it's still good and does something the main deck needs. Soldier is great against BG decks as it dodges a lot of their removal.
Honor of the pure as a bow to tie it all together when the lieutenant doesn't show up for duty
Sideboard: Meddling mage is great against scapeshift, ad nauseam, living end, grapeshot and spells based combos in general. It's also nice against control, though it's just an annoyance. It's great against tron's eldrazi cast triggers! which leads to my next card.
Negate is just there because you actually want to be able to hard counter something on turn 3. I started with 4 mage, moved to 1 negate, and it just felt that the split was optimal. Tron was where negate really shined and meddling mage felt like a crap-shoot, naming karn when they played ugin, etc. Mage and negate actually work best together.
Knight of the white orchid is another one of those cards that I felt gave you the edge you need on the draw. I would fit more in if i could, but the first is very impactful anyway. remember, chess, not checkers.
martyr of sands is a beating against burn
ranger of eos is great against attrition decks
obligatory set of path
obligatory stony silence/rest in peace if you play white in modern
patrician's scorn because !@#$ bogles. but honestly, !@#$ bogles. ok, ok, really though, it's a free spell like almost always.
I've been waffling back and forth on where Thalia, Guardian of Thraben belongs in the 75.
She's incredibly solid against decks that rely on free spells, pump spells, cantrips, deck manipulation, counterspells, and expensive haymaker noncreature finishers – which suddenly become a lot clunkier if they cost one more mana – but she becomes unreliable when you're facing decks with more than 4 pieces of spot removal, especially one-mana removal like Bolt or Push.
For these reasons she's great against Tron, decent against Infect, Ad Nauseum, maybe ok vs Valakut variants.. any others? I've found her to be useless against Affinity, and unreliable or mediocre against interactive decks like BGx Midrange, Eldrazi Midrange, Ux Control. I haven't gotten to test her against Burn, my guess is that she'd get a one-time tax on the next burn spell (aimed at her) but I'm not sure whether that slows them down enough to be useful.
Overall I acknowledge that she has the potential to make a very large impact in some matchups, I'm just haven't figured out whether she belongs in the Main or Side given how prominent Eldrazi and BGx are right now.
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With that said I've also been working on "White-ish" humans, going so far as to add a red splash to squeeze Mantis Rider and Bolt in there:
Even with the Red and Blue splashes (I call the deck "Wru-mans") all the creatures are white so we still get the full benefits from Brave the Elements and Honor of the Pure. Here we have Bolt over Javelineer. I've started to run it through a gauntlet to compare its matchups to my 4c list. I will report back when I have more data.
I had been going back and forth on her for my build for a long time. What I realized is that I definitely want her in the 75. She is too good at slowing down unfair spell-based decks that could potentially goldfish faster than you.
That being said, I really thought the side would be the best place, because of the disynergy with gather the townsfolk and honor of the pure, but everything I replaced her with was just not on the same power level. Her first strike is also not irrelevant when you start pumping with the two aforementioned spells.
Even against fair decks, dropping a thalia when they have passed with 1 mana up is a huge tempo swing. Either they use their bolt or push on a 1 mana creature, thus making them trade at parity, or you make them take their next turn off killing her.
I really thought the side would be the best place, because of the disynergy with gather the townsfolk and honor of the pure, but everything I replaced her with was just not on the same power level.
Yeah I definitely feel you there. Tried her in the side but couldn't find a great two-drop in white to replace her with. I was thinking maybe Knight of the Holy Nimbus since he really shines against Midrange & Control strategies. For now Thalia's staying in the Main.
She's incredibly solid against decks that rely on free spells, pump spells, cantrips, deck manipulation, counterspells, and expensive haymaker noncreature finishers – which suddenly become a lot clunkier if they cost one more mana – but she becomes unreliable when you're facing decks with more than 4 pieces of spot removal, especially one-mana removal like Bolt or Push.
...and unreliable or mediocre against interactive decks like BGx Midrange, Eldrazi Midrange, Ux Control. I haven't gotten to test her against Burn, my guess is that she'd get a one-time tax on the next burn spell (aimed at her) but I'm not sure whether that slows them down enough to be useful.
I found her to be quite solid against spot removal decks. In a human deck, almost all of your creatures die to most spot removal anyway, and she's practically a lightning rod to them. Then, when she does get hit by something, she's one of the few humans that trades evenly with Bolt and Push (2 mana for 2 mana, 1 card for 1 card) and then that's one push/bolt that wont be aimed at a Champion of the Parish, Thalia's Lieutenant or Mantis Rider down the road, and path to exile on Thalia is great since it costs them 2 mana (an even trade already) and ramps you.
The only real alternative that does better than her against those decks is Knight of the Holy Nimbus and possibly Auriok Champion.
I'm currently trying out Kari Zev, Skyship Raider in the Thalia, Guardian of Thraben slot of my 4C Company deck. Initial results are pretty promising. 3 toughness (bolt proof with a single lord out), menace, first strike and generates an extra attacker. Not much to dislike here. She's generally good in a lot of the same matchups as Thalia (not AS good, but certainly above average) and she's better in all of the matchups in which Thalia is bad; not only that, but you avoid the awkward situations with Collected Company. Oh, and she's best friends with Reflector Mage
It probably has to do with the menace thing, perhaps making it easier to take advantage of that?
Precisely. The evasion is extra relevant when Mage is able to keep the board relatively clear. They either can't block her or have to dedicate all of their blockers to her, allowing everyone else to get through.
I'm still struggling with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Smuggler's Copter in White-ish lists... I think the biggest draw to White is having an explosive start that can interact or sneak damage through with Brave the Elements:
Turn 1) Champion
Turn 2) Kytheon + 2/1, Champ attacks for 3
Turn 3) Lieutenant or Honor of the Pure, attack for 9-11, hold one mana open for Brave the Elements / Path / Bolt / Spell Pierce
Obviously that's an ideal curve but with enough redundancy in the deck there are a lot of variations that are only slightly less powerful.
The problem I have is that both Thalia GoT and Smuggler's Copter don't fit into this curve well:
Playing Thalia turn 2 slows down your clock relative to playing two 2/1s and forces you to hold 2 mana open instead of 1 if you want to be ready to interact.
Playing Copter turn 2 puts your Champ under curve and unable to safely attack. Getting your first 3 damage in on Turn 3 isn't very aggressive.
Yes you can hold both of these cards back and play them on T4 or something, but you get the most benefit out the Thalia's tax and Copter's looting when you start reaping their benefits as early as possible.
Where do these cards fit into the ideal curve of a White-ish list? Is it worth diluting the consistency of strong starts to run these cards in the main? I would love get more data on this.
While I wholeheartedly agree with you, Shelldell, I think that just running 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is not going to affect that gameplan much, if at all. For example, in the mono white list in the primer, there are 17 1 drops, 4 Gather the Townsfolk and 11 2cmc "lord effects" - there is mountains of redundancy for such a curve. The two Thalias serve as pre-board help against decks that the mono white list naturally struggles against and needs some help with.
Eternal Witness1GG
+Re-buying Collected Company can be back-breaking in grindy matchups
+Can target any card in your graveyard
-1/2 body is not very aggressive Play Note: Don't be afraid to grab a fetchland back if you're in need of mana
Minor correction. Eternal Witness is a 2/1, not a 1/2.
I'm liking that GW list - I've considered making a similar one myself. However, the issue I've had with CoCo Humans decks that don't run the Reflector Mage/Mantis Rider 3 drop package is that they have a hard time pushing through damage, so that would be my primary concern. Also, I think you can run 2 Duskwatch Recruiter and 3 Mayor of Avabruck. I've been very happy with that split in my lists.
If you're really against splashing blue for reflector mages/flying humans for evasion, have you considered Abzan Falconer?
Your heavy hitters (Champion of the Parish, Thalia's Lieutenant, and Knight of the Reliquary) have +1/+1 counters built into them, and Thalia's Lieutenant can give counters to every other creature in the deck, so the Falconer's flying requirement isn't exactly absurdly conditional, and its outlast is fairly priced to the point where it's quite usable.
I agree that the g/w list has trouble pushing damage through. It is better at playing an attrition game on the other hand. In that I think it is similar to your abzan list
Yeah, exactly. The Abzan list can grind with the best of 'em, but it struggles at getting/staying ahead on board and pushing through damage.
Not sure if it is worth to splash blue for 3 reflector mages. The manabase together with noble hierarch can support it easily though. Reflector mage does solve a lot of problems. Alternatively this could be lyev skynight.
I like the idea of cutting a mayor of avabruck. I haven't played with duskwatch recruiter yet but he looks powerful.
If you're going to splash blue for Reflector Mage, you can make the blue splash more useful and run some counter magic in the sideboard to help out against a lot of GW's worst matchups. As for Duskwatch Recruiter, he's been great for me. I had a game recently where I got triple Path'd in one turn, leaving just a Duskwatch alone on board. A couple of turns and activations later, I'm way ahead on board with tons of gas in hand and cruise to victory. Even just 1 activation is usually enough. I also have a feeling that he will make a fantastic Renegade Rallier target. Either way, I'm definitely interested to see how a Mantis Rider-less list performs.
If you're going to splash blue for Reflector Mage, you can make the blue splash more useful and run some counter magic in the sideboard to help out against a lot of GW's worst matchups.
I can definitely see counter magic being good in the sideboard. Which one do you think is the best for this type of deck? Negate is a good hard counter against most of the problematic cards for humans. We play a lot of creatures though so unified will might just be better.
I'm personally running 4x Negate in my list because I'm always hesitant to run situational counter spells in a format like Modern where there are so many ways to kill small creatures. I've tried other options like Mana Leak and Disdainful Stroke, but in the end I just want a non-situational hard counter for the stuff I care most about.
As for Duskwatch Recruiter, he's been great for me. I had a game recently where I got triple Path'd in one turn, leaving just a Duskwatch alone on board. A couple of turns and activations later, I'm way ahead on board with tons of gas in hand and cruise to victory. Even just 1 activation is usually enough. I also have a feeling that he will make a fantastic Renegade Rallier target. Either way, I'm definitely interested to see how a Mantis Rider-less list performs.
Yes I think Duskwatch recruiter can really shine in a deck with renegade rallier. I have never played with the card before but I imagine you are always kind of reluctant to attack/block with it in the early game because you like to have it stick around in the late game to do its card advantage thing. If you have 4 ralliers in your deck this becomes less of a concern, since you can always reanimate it in the late game where it is at it's best.
Luckily he's one of the better 2cmc attackers due to the 2 toughess, but yeah, he's usually not a very expendable creature. But at that point, he brings friends along and you have no shortage of attackers and blockers
Speaking of blue humans, has anyone tried using Trophy Mage along with 1 copy of a few swords?
That's a cool interaction I didn't think of, even a bad stoneforge mystic can still be a playable card. I fear trophy mage is just a bit too slow though. My main worry is that if you run trophy mages you probably have to run at least two swords. This means your deck has less creatures which makes collected company worse. Ofcourse you can play it in a deck without collected company but those decks tend to be more aggressive, not sure if they want swords. You also really clog up your 3 drop slots which means you can play less mantis rider/reflector mage/renegade rallier/anafenza/etc.
Yeah, I don't think Trophy Mage has a spot in a traditional Humans list; there's too much competition at 3cmc and the existing options are just generally better. However, I have messed around with a Puresteel Paladin Humans list before, and she can possibly find a slot there:
This deck is a lot of fun and pulls wins out of nowhere. Thraben Inspector's clue token plays really nicely with Puresteel Paladin and allows for some quick draws with lots of things being equipped. The downside is that it is open to Affinity hate cards, but the good thing is that it can still win without the equipment strategy. Also, I think this deck has some room to grow by utilizing cards like Auriok Steelshaper and Ardent Recruit.
What do you guys think about running one or two phantasmal image in a deck with 4 renegade rallier? Reanimating a phantasmal image with renegade rallier is amazing. Play rallier --> reanimate phantasmal image --> copy the rallier --> get back another creature or land. If you reanimate a thalia's lieutenant or mayor in the last step you now have 9 power on board, just by playing one rallier. Maybe I'm in magical christmas land but you really don't have to go through many hoops in order for this to happen, just play magic.
The main question here is is phantasmal image good enough on the curve? I think it is. Copying a champion of the parish, noble hierarch or thraben inspectors is not the worst you can do. Copying thalia's lieutenant or mayor of avabruck is good. Copying 3 drops like Knight of the reliquary or reflector mage is really good. The only card that is actively bad to copy is thalia, guardian of thraben.
If everything goes wrong there is also always the possibility of copying your opponents creature.
Phantasmal Image is an interesting idea, but its biggest problem would be the same problem I've had with Thalia's Lieutenant and Mayor of Avabruck - they're bad on an empty board. Yes, there are some awesome Christmas Land scenarios to be had, but it really comes down to how often that works out vs how often it's just not good enough.
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Just wanted to put up a quick update in regards to my Kari Zev, Skyship Raider experiment. She continues to perform very well. She's a great blocker against aggro decks, she's a great attacker against control decks and also doesn't slow down Collected Company. While there aren't any matchups where she's a total bomb, like with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, she seems to be more consistently good in all matchups; I haven't been sideboarding her out in any of them. I plan to do a full MTGO league with her in the list to see how it works out.
Kari Zev, just adds pressure by getting 2 creatures with one and menace just helps. I am for suggestions but this is my take for on humans for a naya version.
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Hamlet Captain
3 Hanweir Militia Captain
4 Kessig Malcontents
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
2 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
3 Atarka's Command
4 Collected Company
4 Manamorphose
Land
3 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
4 Wooded Foothills
Kessig Malcontents and Shaman of the Pack are textbook win-more cards that can be good if you're ahead on board and might even secure you an otherwise impossible victory via direct damage through a locked board stall but otherwise will do very little for you when you're behind. Most Elf players currently feel that GW Elves is objectively a more competitive deck than GB Elves with Shaman.
With that said, GB Elves can make Shaman work because they go incredibly wide faster than almost any other deck and on top of that they'll run 4x Chord of Calling to tutor Shaman for a quick kill. With your Human list here you will have maybe.. 4-5 creatures down on turn 4. Malcontents could come in and deal 4-6 damage, yeah, but that's all it's going to do. A grounded 3/1 body is too fragile to reliably push any damage through so after its ETB trigger it won't do much of anything to fix your locked board state if that wasn't enough. Since humans don't have to go as "all in" as Elves and you're already in Red I think you could just run Lightning Bolt and some other burn spells and get the same game-closing reach that you want from Malcontents but with a lot more flexibility in terms of interaction and also utility when you're behind.
Hanweir Militia Captain is pretty win-more, too, and personally I would trim her but at least the value floor is a 2/2 for 2 instead of a 3/1 for 3.
Overall I'd recommend shaving your curve down a bit. You have a lot of cards that work better with more bodies on the field but don't have the token generators or 1-drop-centric curve to accomplish that quickly. Naya lists "work" because they're explosive enough to push early damage through on the the ground and then finish off with burn. Here you have some good value plays and tremendous synergy, and when you win you'll really win lol, but any disruptive midrange, control, or token deck is going to give you a lot of problems. If you want to keep the curve higher I would at least swap Hanweir Garrison in over Malcontents.
Hope that's useful, take care.
Alright I took you advice, made some changes and did some play testing. Oh my gosh this deck hits hard and it fast, give I didn't really play any decks with disruptions but I did beat Ad nausaum, bant eldrazi, some kind of affinity concept and elves. Here is the list I am working with now and I really like it so far, I haven't built a sideboard yet but so far I like what I got.
I know this is a tribal deck but it has some major synergy, with both the kari zev, skyship raider and Hanweir Garrison making tokens adds alot of power mixed with atarka's command. The one card that seems awkward is burning-tree emissary but it is pretty nice to string it together with manamorphoros then to either another creature or atarka's command. So far I think 3 collected company is pretty good. I am starting to think black would be fun with dark confident and zulaport cuthroat. Also I think some kind of spot removal might be needed like lightning bolt for the naya version. I am up for suggestions but this deck has some potential
2 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Hamlet Captain
3 Hanweir Garrison
3 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Thraben Inspector
3 Atarka's Command
4 Collected Company
4 Manamorphose
Land (17)
3 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
4 Wooded Foothills
So I've had a love of meddling mage since forever and I brewed up a mono-white humans deck that splashes for sideboard mage and counters. I just liked the idea of an aggro deck being able to prevent combo decks from racing them and control decks from casting sweepers on curve (hmm, kinda like thalia, except more precise). It just seemed like meddling mage and some counters filled in some holes that the deck had. As for the main deck, I made this deck to go as wide as possible as early as possible to take advantage of thalia's lieutenant. I'll talk about individual cards after the jump and would love any suggestions or comments.
3 kytheon, hero of akros
4 boros elite
4 thraben inspector
4 icatian javelineers
2 soldier of the pantheon
2 mardu woe-reaper
3 thalia, guardian of thraben
4 thalia's lieutenant
4 gather the townsfolk
4 honor of the pure
2 brave the elements
2 path to exile
2 horizon canopy
1 eiganjo castle
5 plains
2 hallowed fountain
2 arid mesa
2 marsh flats
2 windswept heath
2 meddling mage
2 negate
2 path to exile
2 martyr of sands
2 ranger of eos
1 knight of the white orchid
1 rest in peace
1 stony silence
1 patrician's scorn
1 disenchant
After the obvious champion and lieutenant, the core of the deck is kytheon, boros elite, gather the townsfolk attacking synergy. There is nothing like attacking for 3 on turn 2 into a lot on turn 3. You are trying to race decks that won't interact. Apart from thalia (who is always worth it) and lieutenant, every creature is on a 1 to 1 mana basis (including gather the townsfolk).
Firstly, to address the skeptics, thalia/gather disynergy is hyped and not a big deal in this deck, at least. Let's put it this way, you'll be playing gather before thalia almost always, unless of course thalia is better against the deck. oh well, can't be sad i have a thalia in play against them!
that being said, i do only run 3 copies, but because of its legendary status only actually. this deck wants to flood the board too much to have blanks. Since i run 2 legends, eiganjo castle is a no brainer.
speaking of lands, can't run basic island, and don't need it. You can go under blood moon with both blue spells, so it shouldn't be a problem. 2 mutavault is nice, but it definitely is a spell more than it is a land in opening hands, so keep that in mind. horizon canopy is a no brainer.
I tested 2 of basically every 1 drop in my inital lists to see which ones i liked the most. Icatian javelineers are just too good. When i first started with the deck, it was just such a clean answer to infect. It may not be as needed as before the bans, but it's still important to have interaction. thraben inspector is just too good not to have. white decks never had access to a card like this.
This is chess, this ain't checkers.
These creatures allow you to pull out edges you need to go one more turn and are just the best. the last creature slot i felt did not warrant a full 4 of, so that's why mardu woe reaper and soldier of the pantheon are split. they are both good and make a noticeable impact, but they just wouldn't be good as 4 of (too niche). Woe-reaper was just HI-larious against dredge, and gave you that extra turn. Nowadays, it's still good and does something the main deck needs. Soldier is great against BG decks as it dodges a lot of their removal.
Honor of the pure as a bow to tie it all together when the lieutenant doesn't show up for duty
Sideboard: Meddling mage is great against scapeshift, ad nauseam, living end, grapeshot and spells based combos in general. It's also nice against control, though it's just an annoyance. It's great against tron's eldrazi cast triggers! which leads to my next card.
Negate is just there because you actually want to be able to hard counter something on turn 3. I started with 4 mage, moved to 1 negate, and it just felt that the split was optimal. Tron was where negate really shined and meddling mage felt like a crap-shoot, naming karn when they played ugin, etc. Mage and negate actually work best together.
Knight of the white orchid is another one of those cards that I felt gave you the edge you need on the draw. I would fit more in if i could, but the first is very impactful anyway. remember, chess, not checkers.
martyr of sands is a beating against burn
ranger of eos is great against attrition decks
obligatory set of path
obligatory stony silence/rest in peace if you play white in modern
patrician's scorn because !@#$ bogles. but honestly, !@#$ bogles. ok, ok, really though, it's a free spell like almost always.
Disenchant for everything in between.
She's incredibly solid against decks that rely on free spells, pump spells, cantrips, deck manipulation, counterspells, and expensive haymaker noncreature finishers – which suddenly become a lot clunkier if they cost one more mana – but she becomes unreliable when you're facing decks with more than 4 pieces of spot removal, especially one-mana removal like Bolt or Push.
For these reasons she's great against Tron, decent against Infect, Ad Nauseum, maybe ok vs Valakut variants.. any others? I've found her to be useless against Affinity, and unreliable or mediocre against interactive decks like BGx Midrange, Eldrazi Midrange, Ux Control. I haven't gotten to test her against Burn, my guess is that she'd get a one-time tax on the next burn spell (aimed at her) but I'm not sure whether that slows them down enough to be useful.
Overall I acknowledge that she has the potential to make a very large impact in some matchups, I'm just haven't figured out whether she belongs in the Main or Side given how prominent Eldrazi and BGx are right now.
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With that said I've also been working on "White-ish" humans, going so far as to add a red splash to squeeze Mantis Rider and Bolt in there:
4x Champion of the Parish
3x Kytheon, Hero of Akros
3x Soldier of the Pantheon
4x Thraben Inspector
4x Thalia's Lieutenant
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Mantis Rider
Instant (10)
4x Brave the Elements
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Path to Exile
4x Honor of the Pure
Land (21)
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Inspiring Vantage
4x Flooded Strand
4x Windswept Heath
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Sacred Foundry
3x Plains
1x Martyr of Sands
2x Path to Exile
2x Auriok Champion
1x Blessed Alliance
2x Meddling Mage
2x Spell Pierce
2x Stony Silence
1x Wear / Tear
1x Ranger of Eos
1x Riders of Gavony
That being said, I really thought the side would be the best place, because of the disynergy with gather the townsfolk and honor of the pure, but everything I replaced her with was just not on the same power level. Her first strike is also not irrelevant when you start pumping with the two aforementioned spells.
Even against fair decks, dropping a thalia when they have passed with 1 mana up is a huge tempo swing. Either they use their bolt or push on a 1 mana creature, thus making them trade at parity, or you make them take their next turn off killing her.
I found her to be quite solid against spot removal decks. In a human deck, almost all of your creatures die to most spot removal anyway, and she's practically a lightning rod to them. Then, when she does get hit by something, she's one of the few humans that trades evenly with Bolt and Push (2 mana for 2 mana, 1 card for 1 card) and then that's one push/bolt that wont be aimed at a Champion of the Parish, Thalia's Lieutenant or Mantis Rider down the road, and path to exile on Thalia is great since it costs them 2 mana (an even trade already) and ramps you.
The only real alternative that does better than her against those decks is Knight of the Holy Nimbus and possibly Auriok Champion.
Precisely. The evasion is extra relevant when Mage is able to keep the board relatively clear. They either can't block her or have to dedicate all of their blockers to her, allowing everyone else to get through.
I'm still struggling with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Smuggler's Copter in White-ish lists... I think the biggest draw to White is having an explosive start that can interact or sneak damage through with Brave the Elements:
Turn 1) Champion
Turn 2) Kytheon + 2/1, Champ attacks for 3
Turn 3) Lieutenant or Honor of the Pure, attack for 9-11, hold one mana open for Brave the Elements / Path / Bolt / Spell Pierce
Obviously that's an ideal curve but with enough redundancy in the deck there are a lot of variations that are only slightly less powerful.
The problem I have is that both Thalia GoT and Smuggler's Copter don't fit into this curve well:
Where do these cards fit into the ideal curve of a White-ish list? Is it worth diluting the consistency of strong starts to run these cards in the main? I would love get more data on this.
Minor correction. Eternal Witness is a 2/1, not a 1/2.
Your heavy hitters (Champion of the Parish, Thalia's Lieutenant, and Knight of the Reliquary) have +1/+1 counters built into them, and Thalia's Lieutenant can give counters to every other creature in the deck, so the Falconer's flying requirement isn't exactly absurdly conditional, and its outlast is fairly priced to the point where it's quite usable.
Yeah, exactly. The Abzan list can grind with the best of 'em, but it struggles at getting/staying ahead on board and pushing through damage.
If you're going to splash blue for Reflector Mage, you can make the blue splash more useful and run some counter magic in the sideboard to help out against a lot of GW's worst matchups. As for Duskwatch Recruiter, he's been great for me. I had a game recently where I got triple Path'd in one turn, leaving just a Duskwatch alone on board. A couple of turns and activations later, I'm way ahead on board with tons of gas in hand and cruise to victory. Even just 1 activation is usually enough. I also have a feeling that he will make a fantastic Renegade Rallier target. Either way, I'm definitely interested to see how a Mantis Rider-less list performs.
I'm personally running 4x Negate in my list because I'm always hesitant to run situational counter spells in a format like Modern where there are so many ways to kill small creatures. I've tried other options like Mana Leak and Disdainful Stroke, but in the end I just want a non-situational hard counter for the stuff I care most about.
Luckily he's one of the better 2cmc attackers due to the 2 toughess, but yeah, he's usually not a very expendable creature. But at that point, he brings friends along and you have no shortage of attackers and blockers
Yeah, I don't think Trophy Mage has a spot in a traditional Humans list; there's too much competition at 3cmc and the existing options are just generally better. However, I have messed around with a Puresteel Paladin Humans list before, and she can possibly find a slot there:
Phantasmal Image is an interesting idea, but its biggest problem would be the same problem I've had with Thalia's Lieutenant and Mayor of Avabruck - they're bad on an empty board. Yes, there are some awesome Christmas Land scenarios to be had, but it really comes down to how often that works out vs how often it's just not good enough.
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Just wanted to put up a quick update in regards to my Kari Zev, Skyship Raider experiment. She continues to perform very well. She's a great blocker against aggro decks, she's a great attacker against control decks and also doesn't slow down Collected Company. While there aren't any matchups where she's a total bomb, like with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, she seems to be more consistently good in all matchups; I haven't been sideboarding her out in any of them. I plan to do a full MTGO league with her in the list to see how it works out.