Both decks need specific cards. So you need to mulligan a little more.
VS jeskai you need your caverns and vial + the disruptive part of the deck (lock down bolt if possible).
VS tron you need all the disruption you can get. Both Thalias, Freebooter and Meddling Mage. Keep them from casting Karn and All is dust. Wurmcoil can be a pain though. Bounce it if possible.
I actually feel both matches are 50/50 but my friend who plays jeskai feels unfavored. You just need the right cards from the deck to win.
I need a source of protection against spot removal. Best sources (since we don't have Mother of Runes and kabira evangel only effects allies) are, by my estimation, spellskite, kira, the great glass spinner, or shapers sanctuary. Any thoughts on which serves us best until we get our own version printed?
Skite is playable in Vials, the other ones are not. In Coco versions, usually you will enjoy your blue counterspells (and Coco is decent VS spot removal to begin with). Mark of Asylum isn't played but does the same kind of job. Same goes for Selfless Spirit and a few others.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
have you guys thought about a playset of dark confidants? I know there are some decks out there that have dabbled 1 or 2, but actually committed a play set. I've been goldfishing and testing internally, but haven't taken it to an event yet; however, testing has proven its value.
Hrm, prophetic flamespeaker seems like it would be decent in the deck, better than confidant and with all the counter triggers on it doublestrike + card advantage. Kind of a forgotten card in Journey to nowhere (nyx). Casting cost is a negative though
I think it will be wise to bring back some Ethersworn Canonists for our sideboards. It helps with Snapcaster decks (which are Jace decks also) and helps with BBE's Cascade. You can flash it in with Vial in response to the Cascade to not expose it before it is relevant.
Creatures with RR, BB, etc. in their casting cost are likely to be uncastable in the absence of a Vial. GW and especially WW creatures have many more mana sources available in a typical list.
By the same token, running Path or really any non-creature spell in the side, with as few as five(!) lands to cast it, seems objectively wrong.
re: Bob and other creature ideas: The performing builds of this deck are all-in on creatures that cast a spell as they ETB. The only exceptions to this are Hierarch and Champion, which are notably only good in very early turns. Creatures that we have to untap with to see value are, generally speaking, not going to do what we need. (I played for a few weeks with 2x Bob main and two SB, FWIW.)
Vialing in an Ethersworn Canonist does work against Snapcaster and Cascade triggers and seems potentially quite good, but that requires two cards to enact, which isn't optimal. I don't think we need Canonist for the Storm match as we are already so favored there, but maybe BBE and the coming Rise of the Blue Menace means they make more sense than previously.
I've been toying with something similar but instead of adding temples, just keep everything the same and add only Eldrazi Displacer to abuse cards like Reflector Mage, Thalia's Lieutenant, Kessig Malcontents and many more. The manabase can support it, but the move feels clunky and too slow.
Regarding Dark Confidant, with a vial-in EOT you always draw a card if i'm not mistaken. I'm still on two maindeck and it helps me grind against the removal heavy control decks I facce regularly. I'ts in no way a preferred two drop on T2, that's for sure.
Putting Eldrazi in a Humans deck that is entirely based on sinergy and creating a critical mass of HUMAN creatures is not something that I consider wise.
The deck has serious constraints on colors for casting our better creatures and stuffing lands like Eldrazi Temple seems pretty crazy.
Mantis Rider isn't a card one should cut. It's been the best 3-drop since the birth of the archetype, period. It makes Smasher hard to fit already.
Thought-Knot Seer is the most appealing option to me because it synergizes with what we already do : disrupt the opponent. Noble into TKS on turn 2 is what makes Bant Eldrazi playable after all, and we can reproduce such openings. It would take Ref Mage's slots, so our aggro MUs would be worse G1 (Affinity in mind, even though TKS can block Etched Champ, which is big upside), but would improve our combo and control G1s.
Reality Smasher is more like Champion (or Mantis) #5-8, so it can be appealing. But Canopies won't be cracked as often, and it's a 5-drop, in all fairness I already see all these games we lose with 1 or 2 Smashers stuck in hand, and an increase of mulligans. We never go up to 5 with a Vial either. It's easy to find 4-5 cmc humans that are also appealing, although we don't play any (even though a very few are considered from time to time, at 1-2 copies max). To me it's a sign Smasher is just above the curve (I consider Temple turns it into a 4-drop here) and not playable in the current lists structure.
No mantis riders, no reflector mages, thought knot seers and reality smashers instead?
Turn 2 mantis is sweet, but so is t2 thought knot, and reality smasher is a good hasty threat too. small disruptive creatures and ramp works well with eldrazi, etc.
I will test it a bit and get back to you with results.
All in all, even considering other eldrazis, I feel it leans the player towards what is usually a mistake : try to meld 2 different decks into 1. If I add 4 Temples and 4 TKS, do I improve the deck overall ? I'd be curious to have feedback, so I'll give it some reps myself too.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
I've found Dark Confidant and Xathrid Necromancer are very powerful in grindier versions of the deck. Dropping them instant speed with aether vial helps get around some of the clunkiness.
Been meaning to try out Alesha, who smiles at death. I ran her a while back when she was printed; and had some success. I think a grindy-reanimator focus mardu humans build could be good
What about an energy package in the Humans deck? Aether Hub, Glint-Sleeve Siphoner and Voltaic Brawler could make sense. Siphoner is less punishing than Bob, and it has some evasion with Menace. It's a bit harder to trigger, but with the other energy cards, it should be possible. Brawler can provide a very strong body and evasion too : 6/5 Trample on turn 3 with Hierarch and Lieutenant. With more rainbow lands, Reflecting Pool could be good, and then maybe splash non-Human colored spells in the SB. There's not much room in the deck for all these cards, but I wanted to at least have this conversation with the community...
A question rises on the side...
If one would run Reflecting Pool alongside Aether Hub, could it then produce mana of any color all the time, or only when the player has energy reserve.
sorry for the deviation, but i've played with energy a lot in standard but have never given the option in modern a thought.
A question rises on the side...
If one would run Reflecting Pool alongside Aether Hub, could it then produce mana of any color all the time, or only when the player has energy reserve.
sorry for the deviation, but i've played with energy a lot in standard but have never given the option in modern a thought.
Any color all the time. Reflecting Pool only checks for the type of mana your lands can produce, not their restrictions.
I dig the creativity and the ideas the forum generates. But there are some real constraints to the mana for this deck (referring to the Vial version here, with the now-standard 12/4/2/1 land package).
We probably cannot afford any non-creature spells that have colored mana demands--even a single W--in their cost. Even high-impact SB bullets like Stony Silence or Rest in Peace are likely to be hugely inconsistent, since there are only seven lands plus four dorks (which for this purpose function as Bolt-able taplands) available to cast these spells.
The same holds true for activated abilities--this deck simply can't get WW reliably (let alone any other two colors) for anything other than creature spells.
It's even tough to get dual-color non-Human creature spells out reliably on curve, if they have any other combination than UW, GW, or (by far the easiest of these) WW. Vial is only a four-of and it has to stick around--if you've had dead copies of Phantasmal Image or Mantis Rider in a hand with no Vial then you know what I mean. And this deck is so lean that it can't really afford to have uncastable creatures in-hand.
By trying out Temple along with Mantis, I noticed that it was a liability almost every game. After a few matches it already leads me to the conclusion Eldrazi + Humans isn't doable or worth it.
My feeling is that both Vial and Coco versions have eventually figured out their best approaches, and that it's easier to wait for a new human to be printed rather than trying to merge other synergies. With one more new staple, the main deck will reach its full potential. Patience guys.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
Mana Confluence is only there because Ancient Ziggurat #4 is still in the mail. I was happy with Reflecting Pool, and it didn’t failed me (yet). I didn’t dare play the full set of Meddling Mage, but that's only because I feel I don't know the format well enough to name the right cards with it. Four Thalia, Guardian of Thraben has always seemed to me quite ambitious, because of the legendary rule. I swapped these two for Kytheon, Hero of Akros, and one Reflector Mage for Thalia, Heretic Cathar. They don't serve the same purpose, but I felt big Thalia could somewhat do the job of removing blockers (just like Reflector Mage), with the upside of disrupting opponent’s tempo and be seriously good against Tokens (Lingering Souls and/or Young Pyromancer) and Bloodbraid Elf.
I'm not sure if Kytheon was the right call, but I was happy with big Thalia.
The first two matchups were against Eldrazi Hatebear. I won each 2-0. Kitesail Freebooter on T2 allowed me to cast well informed Meddling Mage on T3, 3 out of these 4 games. I learned that Restoration Angel and Eldrazi Displacer cannot prevent Phantasmal Image from copying anything, and opponent probably learned that copies would have died to Displacer, if only he tried to.
I won the « final » vs UW Jace Miracles (my LGS always stops after 3 rounds, sadly ; there were enough players to warrant a 4th round).
Game 1, on the draw, I mulliganed to 6 because I had no 1-drop. Even then, my hand was very awkward : Vial, Hierarch and 4 lands. I top decked a Lieutenant, and played Vial on T1. T2 with Lieutenant and Hierarch from Vial (both with a counter). T3, I played another Hierarch and attacked with Lieutenant for 5. I then played cautiously, keeping Mantis Rider in my hand and repeatedly attacked for 5 until opponent conceded without top decking a Miracle.
Game 3 was just perfect. I kept a hand with Coast, Vial, Champion, 2 Lieutenants and 2 Riders. After T1 Vial, and Champion EOT on T2, I luckily top decked a land on T3. Lieutenant got Remand, but I played it again with Vial, and attacked for 3. Detention Sphere removed Champion, and on my T4 I played Thalia, Guardian of Thraben (top decked) + Rider with Vial, and attacked for 6. He passed the turn with 4 untapped lands, and I top decked my 3rd land on T5. I figured opponent couldn’t do anything to prevent me from winning this turn (because of Thalia, even Cryptic Command wasn't possible), and I didn’t dare play cautious because Supreme Verdict could hit me next turn if he land dropped. So I played 2 more Riders (in case one got removed) and attacked for 16. Win!
What I haven't considered is that opponent had enough mana to cast Opt (for 2) and Miracle Terminus (for 2) to sweep my board at instant speed. It didn't happened, luckily. I could have attacked with what I had (for 8) to get him down to 2 life, take Supreme Verdict next turn, and follow up with the two Riders next turn.
A few things about Miracles : while the Miracle trigger is on the stack, the card itself (Terminus, Entreat the Angels, etc.) is in opponent's hand. So with Vial set on 2, if opponent lets you resolve the ability, you can put Kitesail Freebooter, Meddling Mage or Gaddock Teeg and probably disrupt the spell.
I didn’t get to play with Kytheon enough to have a firm opinion. I guess I’m just too careful with him around, and fear attacking with him if I don't have the mana to make him indestructible. Still learning the card within this deck... We'll see in a week or two if I keep Kytheon in the deck, or not.
T2 with Lieutenant and Hierarch from Vial (both with a counter).
...While the Miracle trigger is on the stack, the card itself (Terminus, Entreat the Angels, etc.) is in opponent's hand. So with Vial set on 2, if opponent lets you resolve the ability, you can put Kitesail Freebooter, Meddling Mage or Gaddock Teeg and probably disrupt the spell.
Great play report!
Do I understand that you cast Lieutenant, then respond to her ETB trigger by Vialing in Hierarch, and that way both creatures get +1/+1 counters? Does Lieutenant trigger on an empty board? I did not know about this interaction, seems pretty relevant.
Didn't see the Miracle in-hand steal or block move either. Seems to me you've got a pretty firm grasp of the mechanics of this deck, my thanks for sharing your insight.
VS jeskai you need your caverns and vial + the disruptive part of the deck (lock down bolt if possible).
VS tron you need all the disruption you can get. Both Thalias, Freebooter and Meddling Mage. Keep them from casting Karn and All is dust. Wurmcoil can be a pain though. Bounce it if possible.
I actually feel both matches are 50/50 but my friend who plays jeskai feels unfavored. You just need the right cards from the deck to win.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
Grim Haruspex
Xathrid Necromancer
Liliana, Heretical Healer
Basically, anything that either makes killing 3-4 creatures sound like a really bad idea or at least mitigates the damage done when it happens.
WGUBR 5c Humans
GWR Naya Zoo
Legacy:
GW GW Maverick
R Goblins
Regarding Dark Confidant, with a vial-in EOT you always draw a card if i'm not mistaken. I'm still on two maindeck and it helps me grind against the removal heavy control decks I facce regularly. I'ts in no way a preferred two drop on T2, that's for sure.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
The deck has serious constraints on colors for casting our better creatures and stuffing lands like Eldrazi Temple seems pretty crazy.
WGUBR 5c Humans
GWR Naya Zoo
Legacy:
GW GW Maverick
R Goblins
Thought-Knot Seer is the most appealing option to me because it synergizes with what we already do : disrupt the opponent. Noble into TKS on turn 2 is what makes Bant Eldrazi playable after all, and we can reproduce such openings. It would take Ref Mage's slots, so our aggro MUs would be worse G1 (Affinity in mind, even though TKS can block Etched Champ, which is big upside), but would improve our combo and control G1s.
Reality Smasher is more like Champion (or Mantis) #5-8, so it can be appealing. But Canopies won't be cracked as often, and it's a 5-drop, in all fairness I already see all these games we lose with 1 or 2 Smashers stuck in hand, and an increase of mulligans. We never go up to 5 with a Vial either. It's easy to find 4-5 cmc humans that are also appealing, although we don't play any (even though a very few are considered from time to time, at 1-2 copies max). To me it's a sign Smasher is just above the curve (I consider Temple turns it into a 4-drop here) and not playable in the current lists structure.
All in all, even considering other eldrazis, I feel it leans the player towards what is usually a mistake : try to meld 2 different decks into 1. If I add 4 Temples and 4 TKS, do I improve the deck overall ? I'd be curious to have feedback, so I'll give it some reps myself too.
Been meaning to try out Alesha, who smiles at death. I ran her a while back when she was printed; and had some success. I think a grindy-reanimator focus mardu humans build could be good
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
If one would run Reflecting Pool alongside Aether Hub, could it then produce mana of any color all the time, or only when the player has energy reserve.
sorry for the deviation, but i've played with energy a lot in standard but have never given the option in modern a thought.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
Any color all the time. Reflecting Pool only checks for the type of mana your lands can produce, not their restrictions.
WGUBR 5c Humans
GWR Naya Zoo
Legacy:
GW GW Maverick
R Goblins
We probably cannot afford any non-creature spells that have colored mana demands--even a single W--in their cost. Even high-impact SB bullets like Stony Silence or Rest in Peace are likely to be hugely inconsistent, since there are only seven lands plus four dorks (which for this purpose function as Bolt-able taplands) available to cast these spells.
The same holds true for activated abilities--this deck simply can't get WW reliably (let alone any other two colors) for anything other than creature spells.
It's even tough to get dual-color non-Human creature spells out reliably on curve, if they have any other combination than UW, GW, or (by far the easiest of these) WW. Vial is only a four-of and it has to stick around--if you've had dead copies of Phantasmal Image or Mantis Rider in a hand with no Vial then you know what I mean. And this deck is so lean that it can't really afford to have uncastable creatures in-hand.
It's not an accident that the only usual non-creature inclusions in the side are castable with generic mana. With respect, the ideas in these two articles by Frank Karsten should really be addressed by anyone who is trying to make a case for the kinds of out-of-the-box suggestions that are coming up lately in this thread, especially when arguing for non-creature spells with colored mana requirements:
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/how-many-lands-do-you-need-to-consistently-hit-your-land-drops/
My feeling is that both Vial and Coco versions have eventually figured out their best approaches, and that it's easier to wait for a new human to be printed rather than trying to merge other synergies. With one more new staple, the main deck will reach its full potential. Patience guys.
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Unclaimed Territory
3 Ancient Ziggurat
1 Mana Confluence
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Seachrome Coast
1 Plains
Creatures (37)
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Champion of the Parish
2 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Kitesail Freebooter
4 Phantasmal Image
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Meddling Mage
3 Reflector Mage
4 Mantis Rider
1 Kessig Malcontents
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Aether Vial
2 Gut Shot
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Dire Fleet Daredevil
2 Vithian Renegades
2 Izzet Staticaster
2 Anafenza, the Foremost
1 Heron's Grace Champion
1 Hostage Taker
1 Notion Thief
Mana Confluence is only there because Ancient Ziggurat #4 is still in the mail. I was happy with Reflecting Pool, and it didn’t failed me (yet). I didn’t dare play the full set of Meddling Mage, but that's only because I feel I don't know the format well enough to name the right cards with it. Four Thalia, Guardian of Thraben has always seemed to me quite ambitious, because of the legendary rule. I swapped these two for Kytheon, Hero of Akros, and one Reflector Mage for Thalia, Heretic Cathar. They don't serve the same purpose, but I felt big Thalia could somewhat do the job of removing blockers (just like Reflector Mage), with the upside of disrupting opponent’s tempo and be seriously good against Tokens (Lingering Souls and/or Young Pyromancer) and Bloodbraid Elf.
I'm not sure if Kytheon was the right call, but I was happy with big Thalia.
The first two matchups were against Eldrazi Hatebear. I won each 2-0. Kitesail Freebooter on T2 allowed me to cast well informed Meddling Mage on T3, 3 out of these 4 games. I learned that Restoration Angel and Eldrazi Displacer cannot prevent Phantasmal Image from copying anything, and opponent probably learned that copies would have died to Displacer, if only he tried to.
I won the « final » vs UW Jace Miracles (my LGS always stops after 3 rounds, sadly ; there were enough players to warrant a 4th round).
A few things about Miracles : while the Miracle trigger is on the stack, the card itself (Terminus, Entreat the Angels, etc.) is in opponent's hand. So with Vial set on 2, if opponent lets you resolve the ability, you can put Kitesail Freebooter, Meddling Mage or Gaddock Teeg and probably disrupt the spell.
I didn’t get to play with Kytheon enough to have a firm opinion. I guess I’m just too careful with him around, and fear attacking with him if I don't have the mana to make him indestructible. Still learning the card within this deck... We'll see in a week or two if I keep Kytheon in the deck, or not.
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
Do I understand that you cast Lieutenant, then respond to her ETB trigger by Vialing in Hierarch, and that way both creatures get +1/+1 counters? Does Lieutenant trigger on an empty board? I did not know about this interaction, seems pretty relevant.
Didn't see the Miracle in-hand steal or block move either. Seems to me you've got a pretty firm grasp of the mechanics of this deck, my thanks for sharing your insight.