Hi. I haven't posted for a while. Did we decide yet if the vial version or coco is better? I feel with all the midrange decks (mardu)..and Jace coming up that coco might be the better choice. Opinions?
Not too sure about 4-drops in general, but the fella did take 22nd with zero byes at a GP, beating Sam Pardee in round 15 and going 12-3 through an absolute gauntlet of UW and Jeskai control.
Baby Thalia is Definitely a keep in the mb, i understand where you're coming from about feeling useless at times; however, the meta is wide open right now and what makes humans so good is that it can change its gameplay from aggro to control/tempo or both at the same time. There are very popular decks out in the wild that HATE thalia, i.e. storm, griselbrand, burn, etc. Although YOUR meta may not be spell heavy, in general it is a good card that taxes the opponent.
if its really bothering you, you can go down to 3 such as I did to squeeze something else. but i really don't think you should bring it down any lower
Some replies (unquoted, because I am too lazy) and loose thoughts:
Right at the moment 5c Humans including Aether Vial is supposedly the strongest variant of 5c Humans and I don't see how Collected Company will be able to keep pace with fixing mana, instant speed tricks for zero mana and bringing creatures into play that cannot be countered. But I might be wrong.
Including a four drop in our deck is not a good idea to my mind. As we only play 18 lands, with 4 of them basically used as a draw engine, we will rarely have enough mana to cast it. Some players include Hostage Taker, a while ago people expecting to play the mirror included Riders of Gavony. But at the moment there is no equivalent for BBE or JtMS in the human tribe.
Quite recently people thought about including more one drops in 5c Humans to increase synergy with Kessig Malcontents. Most common was Thraben Inspector but I prefer Sage of Epityr (until Lantern comes around to laugh at the card choice). I additionally find the idea of a single Kytheon, Hero of Akros appealing but wonder how often we will be able to flip him.
Does anyone include Chalice of the Void as a one or two of in the sideboard to be played turn two in order to make life harder for all those 1 cmc spell casters?
Yes I do run Chalice of the Void and have upped to two copies in the sideboard recently. I face a lot of Grixis and Jeskai control decks and chalice on one is absolutely vital for especially Grixis for several reasons. 1) It stops 1cmc removal and disruption, 2) It gets picked by hand disruption before any of our threats, 3) It deflects Kolaghan's Command from Vial, or at least causes confusion. That card is straight up busted vs our deck.
It has another upside vs decks that use free spells (when on the play) against affinity and living end type decks.
To me the card is very important and with Jace coming back, I expect a lot more of these decks.
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is truely awesome. Gains an extra turn usually against the same decks where Chalice shines, pushing trough more damage and draw more cards/disruption.
I always ran only 3 Thalias in the main. It's comparable to running 3 or 4 Reflector Mages : it doesn't truly matter in such a wide meta. It's a meta call at best and as far as I know, it's impossible to predict a metagame perfectly right now, since the format is in constant mutation. If one cuts the fourth copy of a card, one can balance it thanks to subtle SB choices.
Vs something like lantern, thalia is ok. Kambal can actually win the game on its own.
As long as you don't try to replace one for the other, you'll be fine. Thalia is needed in the main among the 2-cmc slots, while Kambal often fits in Ref Mage slot and belongs to the SB until the format shifts heavily.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
Well, why not test the deck with Thalia for a whole bunch of matches, and then without for a whole bunch of matches, and tell us what you find? There may be a reason that nobody else is questioning running multiple copies of this card in the main, or maybe you've had a powerful insight.
For my part, I don't agree that Thalia isn't good against a lot of decks.
Well why would it be needed in the main if it isnt that good vs a lot of decks? That makes it a SB card.
This is a wrong statement and it's gonnna be even more wrong now BBE and Jace will make non-creature based decks rise in popularity. It's actually a great spot for Thalia MB right now.
So is thalia being evaluated on its own merit in the human deck? Or is it just that it is good with wasteland, good with leonin arbiter, used to be the best option for humans, and now is just kept out of habit, not because it is the best option in this meta, but because it was the best option for other decks in other metas?
You missed Thalia is good in a deck that plays only 4 non-creature spells, and that our bad MUs include decks that run few creatures. Get some more reps with the deck, you'll eventually come to your own conclusion.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
What about Ratchet Bomb? Or is it too slow compared to Enginnered Explosives? It can be cast with Cavern and Territory if they're the only lands available, only costs 2 mana (not 3 like EE) and is definitely more budget...
Ratchet Bomb is also useful vs Lantern, Pyromancer and Affinity.
I'd play Bomb over Scorn (that card is so clunky) anytime. Others like Chalice of the Void as well. Anyway, Human cards and artifacts are always a better approach than colored spells in a Vial list SB.
Bomb has the upside of being able to break a Blood Moon lock as well.
Edit : on a side note, Crusader is really working wonders along with Image in this field full of BBE. But Jace decks are another story. UWx control was already a tough MU but now it's worse. I don't see a good card in the SB to improve the MUs. I'm currently with 2 Sin Collector + 2 Xathrid Necromancer, but I still have 2 flexible slots to fill.
Well, not in my experience so far. Jace isn't a problem alone, but the decks that play it are (and have always been).
URx Moon can lock us with Blood Moon and Spreading Seas. UWx play a million removal spells (a mix of Bolt/Push, Path, Helix, Cryptic, etc...), including Terminus (fancy brews inb4) or Supreme Verdict. UB Tezz plays Ensnaring Bridge and possibly black wraths.
It's no debate that decks who play wraths & prison elements are bad MUs for Humans. The rise of popularity of these decks has to be anticipated, let's face we're going to encounter more unfavorable MUs than before.
Honestly I'm thinking of bringing sexy back with spellskite...great against bogles, burn, and JTMS's bounce ability.
I actually have been thinking about adding spellskite into sb as a 2 of, but from the top of my head it only helps against bogles and burn, can't really think of anything else it answers for. With the meta as it is right now, our sb tech needs to be flexible and able to answer a wide variety of decks, not just 2-3
On a side note what do you guys think of Harsh Mentor? Answers, affinity, lantern, devoted druid combo
Direfleet Daredevil just won a BG match for me today.
First one Pushed his Goyf so I could kill his Lili, second one Decayed his Lili Last Hope.
I want to try 3 next time
I went 2-2 at a 32 player tournament last week - my losses were to Jeskai control and GB Tron, I beat a budget burn build and a BW Planewalker control deck.
Anyone got any tips vs Jeskai control or GB tron? both decks run a whole bunch of removal and go over us pretty easily. I am thinking Gaddock Teeg maybe for tron but in general I feel like i need to be faster. Adding Kytheon seems like a good start but anyone got any other additions?
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WGUBR 5c Humans
GWR Naya Zoo
Legacy:
GW GW Maverick
R Goblins
Not too sure about 4-drops in general, but the fella did take 22nd with zero byes at a GP, beating Sam Pardee in round 15 and going 12-3 through an absolute gauntlet of UW and Jeskai control.
He's also a big fan of SB slots devoted to Gaddock Teeg, Hostage Taker, Gut Shot, and even Dire Fleet Daredevil. I definitely recommend reading the OP, it seems very well considered IMO.
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
Humans is trying to win on T4 or maybe T5, so she doesn't have to stick around for too long to have an outsized tempo impact on the game state.
if its really bothering you, you can go down to 3 such as I did to squeeze something else. but i really don't think you should bring it down any lower
Yes I do run Chalice of the Void and have upped to two copies in the sideboard recently. I face a lot of Grixis and Jeskai control decks and chalice on one is absolutely vital for especially Grixis for several reasons. 1) It stops 1cmc removal and disruption, 2) It gets picked by hand disruption before any of our threats, 3) It deflects Kolaghan's Command from Vial, or at least causes confusion. That card is straight up busted vs our deck.
It has another upside vs decks that use free spells (when on the play) against affinity and living end type decks.
To me the card is very important and with Jace coming back, I expect a lot more of these decks.
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is truely awesome. Gains an extra turn usually against the same decks where Chalice shines, pushing trough more damage and draw more cards/disruption.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
As long as you don't try to replace one for the other, you'll be fine. Thalia is needed in the main among the 2-cmc slots, while Kambal often fits in Ref Mage slot and belongs to the SB until the format shifts heavily.
For my part, I don't agree that Thalia isn't good against a lot of decks.
This is a wrong statement and it's gonnna be even more wrong now BBE and Jace will make non-creature based decks rise in popularity. It's actually a great spot for Thalia MB right now.
You missed Thalia is good in a deck that plays only 4 non-creature spells, and that our bad MUs include decks that run few creatures. Get some more reps with the deck, you'll eventually come to your own conclusion.
What about Ratchet Bomb? Or is it too slow compared to Enginnered Explosives? It can be cast with Cavern and Territory if they're the only lands available, only costs 2 mana (not 3 like EE) and is definitely more budget...
Ratchet Bomb is also useful vs Lantern, Pyromancer and Affinity.
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
Bomb has the upside of being able to break a Blood Moon lock as well.
Edit : on a side note, Crusader is really working wonders along with Image in this field full of BBE. But Jace decks are another story. UWx control was already a tough MU but now it's worse. I don't see a good card in the SB to improve the MUs. I'm currently with 2 Sin Collector + 2 Xathrid Necromancer, but I still have 2 flexible slots to fill.
—Radha, Keldon warlord
URx Moon can lock us with Blood Moon and Spreading Seas.
UWx play a million removal spells (a mix of Bolt/Push, Path, Helix, Cryptic, etc...), including Terminus (fancy brews inb4) or Supreme Verdict.
UB Tezz plays Ensnaring Bridge and possibly black wraths.
It's no debate that decks who play wraths & prison elements are bad MUs for Humans. The rise of popularity of these decks has to be anticipated, let's face we're going to encounter more unfavorable MUs than before.
The issue is that we don't have sthg like a Mirran crusader for Ux control decks. In comparison, Bant Spirits and Merfolk are better positionned, AND Coco Humans. A human Geist of Saint Traft or a Kira, Great Glass-Spinner would help, or a human Reclamation Sage. It makes me scratch my head a bit.
I actually have been thinking about adding spellskite into sb as a 2 of, but from the top of my head it only helps against bogles and burn, can't really think of anything else it answers for. With the meta as it is right now, our sb tech needs to be flexible and able to answer a wide variety of decks, not just 2-3
On a side note what do you guys think of Harsh Mentor? Answers, affinity, lantern, devoted druid combo
Harsh Mentor is appealing. How many copies though, 2 or 3 ?
Ethersworn Canonist is on my watchlist too. BBE, Jace decks, Storm...
First one Pushed his Goyf so I could kill his Lili, second one Decayed his Lili Last Hope.
I want to try 3 next time
WGUBR 5c Humans
GWR Naya Zoo
Legacy:
GW GW Maverick
R Goblins
Anyone got any tips vs Jeskai control or GB tron? both decks run a whole bunch of removal and go over us pretty easily. I am thinking Gaddock Teeg maybe for tron but in general I feel like i need to be faster. Adding Kytheon seems like a good start but anyone got any other additions?