I thought about cutting a land and adding another Mind Stone or two, posted about it some pages back.
But there are people who test this deck like crazy and settled on 24 lands and 2 Mind Stone. I personally think that setup works, don't see any reason to change it.
Interestingly Dredge is at a really low ebb right now. It's under 2% on Goldfish. Certainly a symptom of us and Titan Shift playing maindeck Relics. Storm has reacted to it better by maindecking Empty the Warrens, but Dredge doesn't really have a plan B like that.
Titan Shift is over 6%. That's the highest I can remember seeing it in this incarnation of the deck. I'm seeing it more than 6% of the time, for sure. Feels just like Affinity in that there doesn't seem to be any good cards to side for it that aren't very situational. Any ideas?
Interestingly Dredge is at a really low ebb right now. It's under 2% on Goldfish. Certainly a symptom of us and Titan Shift playing maindeck Relics. Storm has reacted to it better by maindecking Empty the Warrens, but Dredge doesn't really have a plan B like that.
Titan Shift is over 6%. That's the highest I can remember seeing it in this incarnation of the deck. I'm seeing it more than 6% of the time, for sure. Feels just like Affinity in that there doesn't seem to be any good cards to side for it that aren't very situational. Any ideas?
I realize you're a more experienced player with the deck than me, but these are my thoughts...
One of the regulars at my shop plays this deck, and I struggle to beat it. Actually don't think I've ever beaten him in 3-4 matches. I was up something like 36-5 one game with Lifelink gains, and he dropped 36 on me.
The best strategy I can come up with is running 2 Warping Wail main in place of the Relics and 2 more Wails in the side. They are going to have a very hard time beating us without Scapeshift. A Wail in hand and 2 open mana is practically an "I win" button for us.
Wail can also help against Crumble to Dust, which can be devastating. The guy I play against sides it in against me, and it's lost me games.
Also, I'd run some extra removal (Spatial Contortion) to keep the Sakura-Tribe Elder from chump blocking and slowing us down before being sacrificed. We need to kill as fast as possible.
Titanshift is an interesting deck to have to deal with, but I mostly agree with what TCH said, with a small addendum.
Warping Wail is great against Titanshift because it's your counterspell to Scapeshift. With that in mind, bringing in Surgical Extraction makes it so that once you deal with one Scapeshift, you've dealt with all their Scapeshifts.
Then there's Chalice of the Void. Chalice is interesting because while it isn't the greatest card in the matchup (CMC's are all over the place) it still has some good applications. Chalice on 0 means they can't use Summoner's Pact to find Primeval Titan, which drops the number of Titans in their deck from 8 to 4. Chalice on 2 cuts off a bunch of their ramp cards like Sakura-Tribe Elder, and Farseek, or Khalni Heart Expedition for the decks still running it. While I know Chalice on 2 costs 4 mana, if we're on the play, we may be able to line up a turn 3 Tron which only gives them the opportunity to cast one of their ramp spells. Obviously if we get enough mana we just play Chalice on 4 to stop them from casting Shapeshift, but that also turns off our TKS's
Some days I wish Dismember was -6/-6 to deal with Titan, but sadly it isn't.
Basilisk Collar is a way for us to gain life but you have to be able to gain a LOT of life to survive Scapeshift. Remember the land to damage count. 7 lands is 18 damage, 8 lands is 36 damage, 9 lands is 54 damage. Valakut is one hell of a land (BTW if they are running Prismatic Omen then they can do 54/72 damage on 6 lands)
Finally there's Karn Liberated which I would make liberal use of to just exile their lands to keep their land count down.
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Actually, Scapeshift has a real easy time beating us without Scapeshift. They just ramp with their other spells (the best ramp spell being Primeval Titan) and kill us with Valakut triggers, no Scapeshift needed. Warping Wail is still good against them, it just won't win us the game. The best cards against Scapeshift from my experience are TKS, Smasher, Karn and Ulamog. TKS into Smasher is the best thing to be doing, because it disrupts them and presents a huge clock. Pithing Needle is good to name their fetches or their sakura tribe guys.
When Gx Tron was really big, you could run 4 Ghost Quarters in the main and 3 Surgicals in the side, and that plan was great against Tron and not bad against Valakut either, because if you Surgicaled their Valakut their only out is to win with titan beats. But I wouldn't run that many surgicals in the side just for the Valakut matchup. I used to run Witchbane Orb, but that too wasn't stellar against valakut.
I agree with this assessment. TKS and Smasher are almost always a key part of the games I win, and Karn is good too if it comes down quickly.
Warping Wail is obviously really solid. Countering Scapeshift that will kill us 100% of the time is great, but a resolved Titan kills us probably 85-90% of the time as well, and we have no good answer to it. For the past few weeks I was actually playing 2 Wail main, much to the chagrin of several opponents, but again, no answer to titan.
Surgical on Scapeshift is decent or GQ + Surgical on Valakut is nice, but it requires a lot to go right - ie them playing out the Valakut, and you having both Surgical and GQ. I've died many times in this matchup with a Surgical rotting in my hand.
I keep in the Chalices as well, and commonly put it on 0. 2, 4 and 6 are obviously possible too, but in most cases you don't have that much time.
Removal for Sakura is fine, but they have to have Sakura to target, AND you have to have pressure on board for it to matter.
All these things are just very situational, to my point.
In the past I was playing a 2 Tec Edge main/2 Crucible of Worlds side package, which was nice in this matchup, Control, Tron, and the mirror, but that was before the rise of Grixis Shadow, which necessitates playing Caverns. Not much room now.
Witchbane Orb actually seems like a reasonable option. It's non-situationally good. If you have it in play, they can't target you and can only win by beats. That's a lot easier to deal with. The issue would be finding sideboard space for it. It's also good against Burn and Storm but I don't think we need much additional help there. Ad Naus too but it's not very common right now. So it seems a bit hard to justify the inclusion. Maybe I'll try 1.
I think saying TKS and Smasher are key in this matchup is kinda redundant because they are the core of the deck and always key ...
Spatial Contortion can also pump a TKS or Smasher to trade with a Titan. Not ideal, but it's still a good option because we have more threats than they do.
I wouldn't say it's as simple as TKS and Smasher are "always key". TKS is pretty bad against Affinity and Dredge, and Smasher comes out a lot. They may be the best cards in the deck in general, but their impact varies from matchup to matchup and you have to assess it in each case when mulliganing to maximize your edges.
Good point on them still being able to kill the creatures with Orb in play. It would still buy a lot of time to find answers to Valakut.
Yeah I actually used to run Mindslaver before. It's good if you can crack it, but it basically requires that you have tron in order to do so, so it's pretty unreliable.
But yeah, I love mind stone as a 4 of. It makes blood moon even less good against us, ramps us for more consistent turn 3 TKS and Smasher, and can trips later on.
I got pretty lucky to dodge the multiple Affinity players, and to have even or favorable matchups every round except BW tokens which isn't good but was able to win. Only losses were to the mirror which is just a coinflip. Whoever has the most mana wins and it wasn't me. Happy with the result anyway, bagged a nice amount of store credit. List I played:
I got pretty lucky to dodge the multiple Affinity players, and to have even or favorable matchups every round except BW tokens which isn't good but was able to win. Only losses were to the mirror which is just a coinflip. Whoever has the most mana wins and it wasn't me. Happy with the result anyway, bagged a nice amount of store credit. List I played:
Out of curiosity, did you get to see your E-Tron opponents whole decklists? In other words what were they running different than you? Thanks.
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Yep, G1 in the finals my opponent had turn 3 tron into Karn on the play, which is really the best possible draw. Had no chance.
@WarMachine I didn't get to see their lists, but I didn't see anything out of the ordinary during the matches.
Thanks. Could you tell if either were running Ulamog in their main?
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STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Yep, G1 in the finals my opponent had turn 3 tron into Karn on the play, which is really the best possible draw. Had no chance.
@WarMachine I didn't get to see their lists, but I didn't see anything out of the ordinary during the matches.
Thanks. Could you tell if either were running Ulamog in their main?
Nope, never saw an Ulamog on my opponents' side in any of the 5 games.
Hey thanks for the reply. To follow up did you side in your Ulamog in any of those game 2 or 3's? Wondered if it got stuck in your hand or not.
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STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Yep, G1 in the finals my opponent had turn 3 tron into Karn on the play, which is really the best possible draw. Had no chance.
@WarMachine I didn't get to see their lists, but I didn't see anything out of the ordinary during the matches.
Thanks. Could you tell if either were running Ulamog in their main?
Nope, never saw an Ulamog on my opponents' side in any of the 5 games.
Hey thanks for the reply. To follow up did you side in your Ulamog in any of those game 2 or 3's? Wondered if it got stuck in your hand or not.
Yep, I definitely brought it in, it's basically the ultimate trump card in the mirror. I think it was only in my hand once though, and my opponent took it with Thought-Knot. I probably would have been able to cast it had he not taken it.
Yep, I definitely brought it in, it's basically the ultimate trump card in the mirror. I think it was only in my hand once though, and my opponent took it with Thought-Knot. I probably would have been able to cast it had he not taken it.
That was my question as well, but I was also curious about how Ugin has been working out for you. I'm also running both Ulamog and Ugin. I like have the extra bombs to bring in when needed. I kind of feel like why play Tron if we don't have bombs available.
Yep, I definitely brought it in, it's basically the ultimate trump card in the mirror. I think it was only in my hand once though, and my opponent took it with Thought-Knot. I probably would have been able to cast it had he not taken it.
That was my question as well, but I was also curious about how Ugin has been working out for you. I'm also running both Ulamog and Ugin. I like have the extra bombs to bring in when needed. I kind of feel like why play Tron if we don't have bombs available.
Ugin's nice. Right now I'm seeing control a lot and I'll bring him in there for sure. The mirror too. Doesn't come in against Grixis because of Stubborn Denial and it just costs way too much in a matchup where I'm trying to assemble Eldrazi Temples + Cavern of Souls. Not good against Tasigur/Angler either. Interestingly, Jund Shadow looks to be seeing an uptick though, and Ugin is great there for basically every opposite reason to the Grixis matchup.
Wide decks like Humans and Elves seem to be on a downswing, thankfully, but there's still enough of them and random decks that Ugin single-handedly beats that I like having access to one.
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But there are people who test this deck like crazy and settled on 24 lands and 2 Mind Stone. I personally think that setup works, don't see any reason to change it.
Titan Shift is over 6%. That's the highest I can remember seeing it in this incarnation of the deck. I'm seeing it more than 6% of the time, for sure. Feels just like Affinity in that there doesn't seem to be any good cards to side for it that aren't very situational. Any ideas?
I realize you're a more experienced player with the deck than me, but these are my thoughts...
One of the regulars at my shop plays this deck, and I struggle to beat it. Actually don't think I've ever beaten him in 3-4 matches. I was up something like 36-5 one game with Lifelink gains, and he dropped 36 on me.
The best strategy I can come up with is running 2 Warping Wail main in place of the Relics and 2 more Wails in the side. They are going to have a very hard time beating us without Scapeshift. A Wail in hand and 2 open mana is practically an "I win" button for us.
Wail can also help against Crumble to Dust, which can be devastating. The guy I play against sides it in against me, and it's lost me games.
Also, I'd run some extra removal (Spatial Contortion) to keep the Sakura-Tribe Elder from chump blocking and slowing us down before being sacrificed. We need to kill as fast as possible.
Warping Wail is great against Titanshift because it's your counterspell to Scapeshift. With that in mind, bringing in Surgical Extraction makes it so that once you deal with one Scapeshift, you've dealt with all their Scapeshifts.
Then there's Chalice of the Void. Chalice is interesting because while it isn't the greatest card in the matchup (CMC's are all over the place) it still has some good applications. Chalice on 0 means they can't use Summoner's Pact to find Primeval Titan, which drops the number of Titans in their deck from 8 to 4. Chalice on 2 cuts off a bunch of their ramp cards like Sakura-Tribe Elder, and Farseek, or Khalni Heart Expedition for the decks still running it. While I know Chalice on 2 costs 4 mana, if we're on the play, we may be able to line up a turn 3 Tron which only gives them the opportunity to cast one of their ramp spells. Obviously if we get enough mana we just play Chalice on 4 to stop them from casting Shapeshift, but that also turns off our TKS's
Some days I wish Dismember was -6/-6 to deal with Titan, but sadly it isn't.
Basilisk Collar is a way for us to gain life but you have to be able to gain a LOT of life to survive Scapeshift. Remember the land to damage count. 7 lands is 18 damage, 8 lands is 36 damage, 9 lands is 54 damage. Valakut is one hell of a land (BTW if they are running Prismatic Omen then they can do 54/72 damage on 6 lands)
Finally there's Karn Liberated which I would make liberal use of to just exile their lands to keep their land count down.
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I agree with this assessment. TKS and Smasher are almost always a key part of the games I win, and Karn is good too if it comes down quickly.
Warping Wail is obviously really solid. Countering Scapeshift that will kill us 100% of the time is great, but a resolved Titan kills us probably 85-90% of the time as well, and we have no good answer to it. For the past few weeks I was actually playing 2 Wail main, much to the chagrin of several opponents, but again, no answer to titan.
Surgical on Scapeshift is decent or GQ + Surgical on Valakut is nice, but it requires a lot to go right - ie them playing out the Valakut, and you having both Surgical and GQ. I've died many times in this matchup with a Surgical rotting in my hand.
I keep in the Chalices as well, and commonly put it on 0. 2, 4 and 6 are obviously possible too, but in most cases you don't have that much time.
Removal for Sakura is fine, but they have to have Sakura to target, AND you have to have pressure on board for it to matter.
All these things are just very situational, to my point.
In the past I was playing a 2 Tec Edge main/2 Crucible of Worlds side package, which was nice in this matchup, Control, Tron, and the mirror, but that was before the rise of Grixis Shadow, which necessitates playing Caverns. Not much room now.
Witchbane Orb actually seems like a reasonable option. It's non-situationally good. If you have it in play, they can't target you and can only win by beats. That's a lot easier to deal with. The issue would be finding sideboard space for it. It's also good against Burn and Storm but I don't think we need much additional help there. Ad Naus too but it's not very common right now. So it seems a bit hard to justify the inclusion. Maybe I'll try 1.
Spatial Contortion can also pump a TKS or Smasher to trade with a Titan. Not ideal, but it's still a good option because we have more threats than they do.
Good point on them still being able to kill the creatures with Orb in play. It would still buy a lot of time to find answers to Valakut.
Yeah I actually used to run Mindslaver before. It's good if you can crack it, but it basically requires that you have tron in order to do so, so it's pretty unreliable.
Game 1: 2-1 vs Gifts
Game 2: 2-1 vs As Foretold Living End/Reanimator/Kiki Jiki
Game 3: 2-0 vs Junk
Game 4: 2-0 vs Collected Humans
Here is my decklist.
What is "Gifts"? Assuming it's not Storm.
But yeah, I love mind stone as a 4 of. It makes blood moon even less good against us, ramps us for more consistent turn 3 TKS and Smasher, and can trips later on.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
R1: Eldrazi Tron (0-2)
R2: Abzan Delirum (2-0)
R3: Storm (2-0)
R4: BW Tokens (2-1)
R5: Grixis Shadow (2-1)
R6 draw into top 8
Quarters: Mardu Burn (2-0)
Semis: Grixis Shadow (2-0)
Finals: Eldrazi Tron (1-2)
I got pretty lucky to dodge the multiple Affinity players, and to have even or favorable matchups every round except BW tokens which isn't good but was able to win. Only losses were to the mirror which is just a coinflip. Whoever has the most mana wins and it wasn't me. Happy with the result anyway, bagged a nice amount of store credit. List I played:
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
2 Endbringer
4 Walking Ballista
2 Karn Liberated
3 Mind Stone
1 Relic of Progenitus
4 Expedition Map
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Tower
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Ghost Quarter
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
2 Wastes
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Warping Wail
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Spatial Contortion
1 Hangarback Walker
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Ulamog, the Caeseless Hunger
Congrats.
Out of curiosity, did you get to see your E-Tron opponents whole decklists? In other words what were they running different than you? Thanks.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
@WarMachine I didn't get to see their lists, but I didn't see anything out of the ordinary during the matches.
Thanks. Could you tell if either were running Ulamog in their main?
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Nope, never saw an Ulamog on my opponents' side in any of the 5 games.
Hey thanks for the reply. To follow up did you side in your Ulamog in any of those game 2 or 3's? Wondered if it got stuck in your hand or not.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Yep, I definitely brought it in, it's basically the ultimate trump card in the mirror. I think it was only in my hand once though, and my opponent took it with Thought-Knot. I probably would have been able to cast it had he not taken it.
That was my question as well, but I was also curious about how Ugin has been working out for you. I'm also running both Ulamog and Ugin. I like have the extra bombs to bring in when needed. I kind of feel like why play Tron if we don't have bombs available.
Ugin's nice. Right now I'm seeing control a lot and I'll bring him in there for sure. The mirror too. Doesn't come in against Grixis because of Stubborn Denial and it just costs way too much in a matchup where I'm trying to assemble Eldrazi Temples + Cavern of Souls. Not good against Tasigur/Angler either. Interestingly, Jund Shadow looks to be seeing an uptick though, and Ugin is great there for basically every opposite reason to the Grixis matchup.
Wide decks like Humans and Elves seem to be on a downswing, thankfully, but there's still enough of them and random decks that Ugin single-handedly beats that I like having access to one.