I also brought in EE almost every game post board at the GP. I would like to find room in the sideboard for a second one but I'm not considering main-decking it.
edit for explanation: It would have significantly fewer targets in game one. I bring it in prophalaxically in G2 against hate cards for Nahiri but it just happens to also hit other things which are relevant.
Token strategies are a pain. I lost to both UB Thopter-Sword-Tezzeret and Esper Mentor/Gifts the last time I played, and am strongly considering moving Timely Reinforcements to the sideboard and bringing a second sweeper to the main. I was thinking to add a second Anger of the Gods, but Engineered Explosives is an interesting idea. Especially for those of us not playing Cryptic Command, it offers a main-deck answer to some off-beat cards (like the T1 Relic I faced in two of the three games vs. Thopter-Sword!?), and provides a more permanent answer to strategies that go wide than Timely Reinforcements does.
I agree. I've been having a lot of the same thoughts about tokens being sucky to play against in my Grixis deck. In particular, Lingering Souls and Bitterblossom. Sweepers are good, yes, but you need more I think. Sweepers fix the symptoms, but not the cause. Jace, Architect of Thought is a good card that can be in the sideboard against tokens. Izzet Staticaster too. Even Runed Halo type cards that get played in Esper can stone wall tokens. As for thopter/sword combo, I find Surgical Extraction on the thopter is GG. Gifts decks can play cards like Academy Ruins, Crucible of worlds so you're gonna have to permanently get rid of it (exile.)
If Thopter Foundry is your main problem card, you could always play a maindeck Blinkmoth Well in a utility land slot so you can permanently get rid of it with Nahiri if you're looking for something amazing.
Sweepers is the solution to the symptoms (tokens) and buys you time but I think you're going to need a solution to the cause (token generator) as the attrition game is better for the tokens deck. Or you could win (Nahiri/Emmy) before they assemble the combo, but I usually don't like my chances with that option but I'll take the free win when I can get it. It's not all bad though, tokens decks usually lack the raw card draw that we have but make up for it by the card advantage one token card can provide. So there is the ability to out attrition them, you're just gonna have to bring grindier cards like Izzet Staticaster, Jace, Architect of Thought etc and you should win on the card draw front.
I'm a tokens player. Izzet Staticaster and Engineered Explosives is quite good against us. Probably better than Anger of the Gods. However, my discard spells give me a lot of ways to get around hate cards. Plus, all my threats (bitterblossom, lingering souls, midnight haunting) are very good against sweepers in general.
I've found that having helixes just as extra ways to kill t1 mana dorks or t2 bob from jund is very valuable, not just vs burn/aggro. Not always going to draw one of the bolts, and pathing a creature that early in the game just feels bad. Having said that, helix is one of the cards I side out the most(that and remand, I think), as most of the time there's just better stuff in the sideboard.
Helix is good against Burn, good against Suicide Zoo and regular Zoo. It can also stop you from getting burned out against the mirror or against another UR/x deck. Sweepers are better against Zoo but bad against Suicide Zoo and Burn and Timely is sorcery speed.
All 3 are good cards though. Just for different situations.
And what about other MUs?
It looks like good against a low % of the meta. Don't you have any other better tool?
I think Helix is an automatic 2-of in any jeskai list, and the 3rd and or 4th copy are more of a metagame decision.
To be honest most of the time Helix just acts as a poor mans Lightning Bolt. The lifegain is good and all, but it doesn't balance out the lack of efficiency compared to other option.
I mean Helix is super good against burn and zoo variants, but is also decent in plenty of other places.
Aside from Bolts and Paths, almost everything we run is decent most of the time and situationally good in others.
I think a matchup people often overlook is bant eldrazi. The deck does a lot to make Anger, EE, spot removal, and permission fairly poor. We really need to be running a suite of 4 CMC sweepers (ideally Verdict to fight post board Stubborn Denial) to bring the matchup closer to even.
If you want a nice hedge card instead of a 3rd of 4th helix; then I would seriously consider Izzet Charm. The card is a workhorse across pretty much the spectrum of all matchups.
Also Electrolyze has fallen out of favor, but the card is still palatable even if you have to pair it with a bolt to take out a 4-5 toughness creature. It also buys time against token strategies, for instance it makes Lingering Souls feel much less punishing when you can trade favorably with the front or back half.
Edit: Also if you want a card that is good against bant eldrazi AND burn (but worse against most zoo draws) then Blessed Alliance is sweet. Bant is only typically attacking with 1-2 big threats and it gets around Reality Smasher.
I've found that having helixes just as extra ways to kill t1 mana dorks or t2 bob from jund is very valuable, not just vs burn/aggro. Not always going to draw one of the bolts, and pathing a creature that early in the game just feels bad. Having said that, helix is one of the cards I side out the most(that and remand, I think), as most of the time there's just better stuff in the sideboard.
Yeah, Helix is just an awesome card. We can think of a million reasons why it's good in this meta but some of the reasons you can't think of are also some of the best. I won lots of races against the like of Jund and hexproof by Helix, snapcaster, helix and then untapp attack. It's a 14 point life swing (You deal 8 and gain 6). It also finishes off planeswalkers. Sometimes it buys you an extra draw step.
I realize a lot of people ar enewer onto the deck, but I've played Jeskai for years and years and this is one of the best times to play Helix that I can recall. The correct number feels like three.
1UR
Planeswalker - Saheeli
+1: Scry 1. Saheeli Rai deals 1 damage to each opponent.
-2: Create a token that's a copy of target artifact or creature you control, except it's an artifact in addition to its other types. That token gains haste. Exile is at the beginning of the next end step.
-7: Search your library for up to three artifact cards with different names, put them onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library.
Maybe move jeskai towards thopter-sword combo?
Either way it'll be cool to theorycraft where this card fits in the puzzle.
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Hmm. Well, I'm thinking of taking this to a small tournament. Trying to decide between a couple of decks and a favourable Jund matchup is a big incentive. Any feedback is appreciated:
I would probably want 2 stony silence instead of 1 kataki and 1 shatterstorm in the sideboard, since it's just as backbreaking for affinity and is good vs tron/ad nauseum as well, and has cryptic been hard to cast with 23 lands? I plsy 24 lands, so not sure if the 23 land versions normally play cryptic or not.
Saheeli may have a useful -2 in a heavy artifact deck (giving legitimacy to UR artifact based decks, instead of UB being defacto the best), but her +1 is actually bad.
Saheeli may have a useful -2 in a heavy artifact deck (giving legitimacy to UR artifact based decks, instead of UB being defacto the best), but her +1 is actually bad.
Gonna have to disagree with you here.
I admit it could be better, but just saying it is bad in general is disingenuous. Scry 1 is always decent, and pinging players or PWs for 1 when we already run a lot of burn isn't nothing.
I expect some powerful UR/Grixis/jeskai artifact shells to be built around this card.
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I'm going to have to see it to believe it because I also believe her +1 is bad. I'm not really excited by the -2 either but I can see some uses for that.
Saheeli may have a useful -2 in a heavy artifact deck (giving legitimacy to UR artifact based decks, instead of UB being defacto the best), but her +1 is actually bad.
Gonna have to disagree with you here.
I admit it could be better, but just saying it is bad in general is disingenuous. Scry 1 is always decent, and pinging players or PWs for 1 when we already run a lot of burn isn't nothing.
I expect some powerful UR/Grixis/jeskai artifact shells to be built around this card.
For a +1, scrying is terrible. It doesn't draw you a card. It doesn't protect itself. It doesn't kill creatures. It pings for 1, which is really mediocre. If it were draw a card and ping for 1, it would be alright, or scry 1, draw 1, ping 1. But as it is, it does nothing to advance the board state unless they have a PW on 1 loyalty. Very unimpressive. Nahiri's +2 is infinitely better. You get to dig, or toss an Emrakul in your hand. You also don't have to dig, and it gives you 2 loyalty counters, starting her at 6 loyalty. It does things.
Saheeli's +1 doesn't do anything. You have no more card than if you didn't use it. 1 damage is inconsequential. Even if they do nothing, you'll ult her to just win the game with a Sundering Titan or what have you.
I think any build playing nahiri should not be playing any, as 4 mana is too important to hit.
For more flash/snapcaster - bolt based builds, the U/R one is likely going to see play.
You would have to cut both falls if you're adding these as they don't play well with each other. 2 is possible, not entirely sure it affects turn 4 Nahiri much as colonnade is in essentially the same situation and we still play 3
I forget if this has been discussed before, but what do we take out vs burn? I know it should be a good matchup but somehow lost against it twice today at a pptq (no mainboard timely though).
Is the nahiri/emrakul combo just too clunky? or do we need the clock? is AV too slow? Remand is bad, wraths are bad (well anger is good if they play wild nacatl I guess), electrolyze is meh, AV is bad unless you have it opening hand, nahiri/emrakul is clunky.
Just not sure which mediocre cards I should be keeping in. Again I know this should be a good matchup but I'm probably just salty from losing to it twice today.
Honestly geist seems like a great clock against burn, cheaper than nahiri and they fetch-shock all the time, haven't tested it out a lot though.
I've been playing Seachrome Coast since Ancestral Vision came off the ban list. Gives me another untapped U/W land with no shock. I think Seachrome coast is a very good card and under used.
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edit for explanation: It would have significantly fewer targets in game one. I bring it in prophalaxically in G2 against hate cards for Nahiri but it just happens to also hit other things which are relevant.
I'm a tokens player. Izzet Staticaster and Engineered Explosives is quite good against us. Probably better than Anger of the Gods. However, my discard spells give me a lot of ways to get around hate cards. Plus, all my threats (bitterblossom, lingering souls, midnight haunting) are very good against sweepers in general.
I think Helix is an automatic 2-of in any jeskai list, and the 3rd and or 4th copy are more of a metagame decision.
To be honest most of the time Helix just acts as a poor mans Lightning Bolt. The lifegain is good and all, but it doesn't balance out the lack of efficiency compared to other option.
I mean Helix is super good against burn and zoo variants, but is also decent in plenty of other places.
Aside from Bolts and Paths, almost everything we run is decent most of the time and situationally good in others.
I think a matchup people often overlook is bant eldrazi. The deck does a lot to make Anger, EE, spot removal, and permission fairly poor. We really need to be running a suite of 4 CMC sweepers (ideally Verdict to fight post board Stubborn Denial) to bring the matchup closer to even.
If you want a nice hedge card instead of a 3rd of 4th helix; then I would seriously consider Izzet Charm. The card is a workhorse across pretty much the spectrum of all matchups.
Also Electrolyze has fallen out of favor, but the card is still palatable even if you have to pair it with a bolt to take out a 4-5 toughness creature. It also buys time against token strategies, for instance it makes Lingering Souls feel much less punishing when you can trade favorably with the front or back half.
Edit: Also if you want a card that is good against bant eldrazi AND burn (but worse against most zoo draws) then Blessed Alliance is sweet. Bant is only typically attacking with 1-2 big threats and it gets around Reality Smasher.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Yeah, Helix is just an awesome card. We can think of a million reasons why it's good in this meta but some of the reasons you can't think of are also some of the best. I won lots of races against the like of Jund and hexproof by Helix, snapcaster, helix and then untapp attack. It's a 14 point life swing (You deal 8 and gain 6). It also finishes off planeswalkers. Sometimes it buys you an extra draw step.
I realize a lot of people ar enewer onto the deck, but I've played Jeskai for years and years and this is one of the best times to play Helix that I can recall. The correct number feels like three.
http://mythicspoiler.com/kld/cards/saheelirai.html
Saheeli Rai
1UR
Planeswalker - Saheeli
+1: Scry 1. Saheeli Rai deals 1 damage to each opponent.
-2: Create a token that's a copy of target artifact or creature you control, except it's an artifact in addition to its other types. That token gains haste. Exile is at the beginning of the next end step.
-7: Search your library for up to three artifact cards with different names, put them onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library.
Maybe move jeskai towards thopter-sword combo?
Either way it'll be cool to theorycraft where this card fits in the puzzle.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)(Probably not really.)
Or the PW might be best in some odd UR artifact tempo deck.
Either way cool to know we have some new toys coming down the pipeline.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Anyone?
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Saheeli may have a useful -2 in a heavy artifact deck (giving legitimacy to UR artifact based decks, instead of UB being defacto the best), but her +1 is actually bad.
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
Gonna have to disagree with you here.
I admit it could be better, but just saying it is bad in general is disingenuous. Scry 1 is always decent, and pinging players or PWs for 1 when we already run a lot of burn isn't nothing.
I expect some powerful UR/Grixis/jeskai artifact shells to be built around this card.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
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For a +1, scrying is terrible. It doesn't draw you a card. It doesn't protect itself. It doesn't kill creatures. It pings for 1, which is really mediocre. If it were draw a card and ping for 1, it would be alright, or scry 1, draw 1, ping 1. But as it is, it does nothing to advance the board state unless they have a PW on 1 loyalty. Very unimpressive. Nahiri's +2 is infinitely better. You get to dig, or toss an Emrakul in your hand. You also don't have to dig, and it gives you 2 loyalty counters, starting her at 6 loyalty. It does things.
Saheeli's +1 doesn't do anything. You have no more card than if you didn't use it. 1 damage is inconsequential. Even if they do nothing, you'll ult her to just win the game with a Sundering Titan or what have you.
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
For more flash/snapcaster - bolt based builds, the U/R one is likely going to see play.
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
URBURB
Is the nahiri/emrakul combo just too clunky? or do we need the clock? is AV too slow? Remand is bad, wraths are bad (well anger is good if they play wild nacatl I guess), electrolyze is meh, AV is bad unless you have it opening hand, nahiri/emrakul is clunky.
Just not sure which mediocre cards I should be keeping in. Again I know this should be a good matchup but I'm probably just salty from losing to it twice today.
Honestly geist seems like a great clock against burn, cheaper than nahiri and they fetch-shock all the time, haven't tested it out a lot though.