checking their 2 drop threat and landing a t3 geist then just tempoing them and keeping them on the back foot is usually a pretty good game winner for me. that said just try to play with value in mind. Junk/Jund doesn't really have any actual ways to really draw cards aside from bob. Most of their threats are just designed to be 2 for 1s. so if you can avoid spending 2 cards on 1 of their cards then you should be able to wreck them pretty easily.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Big thanks to DarkNightCavalier from heroes of the planes studios for the sig!
@TheAller, I know how to play against them. The problem is that we're not setup to play the long game even after sideboard unless you convert to a full on control deck. For instance, I don't know why you have 3 Supreme Verdict in your sideboard. What else are they good against? That's why I'm thinking about better offensive options.
As much as I love singing eyebrows I must say Abzan is a MU where we do have to grind through rather than go all-in on your opponents face. I agree with most of Aller's views on the MU. I believe our deck, even a geist or midrange style list, has all the tools to go long. We are a snap-cryptic deck with 3-4 collonades after all, we shouldn't be afraid to grind. I've noticed an uptick in Abzan recently too and this, combined with a continued high representation of E-Tron in my meta, has led me to run the following list for the past few weeks;
Spell Quellers come out due to the inevitability of their removal (3x Fatal Push, 3x Path to Exile, 2x Abrupt Decay, 1x Maelstrom Pulse are in most main-decks). I also aim to win games 2 and 3 long rather than with tempo beats. Geist gets trimmed for a similar reason but hexproof and the free win factor always make me retain 1 or 2 copies post-board. Burn gets shaved because in long games you don't want to be sitting on a bolt while facing down Lingering Souls, Tarmogoyf or even a delirium-fueled Grim Flayer. Detention Sphere deals with Liliana and Lingering Souls (better against souls than lili since if they decay it the tokens will not return).
I have really been appreciating the ability to reverse into a go-long control deck by replacing Geists with Gideons and P&K out of the sideboard. Combined with Supreme Verdict, Detention Sphere, and Engineered Explosives, I have been finding Abzan much more favourable than I used to. If I ever board out Geists or Quellers then my post-board threat package looks like 1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant, 1x Gideon of the Trials, 1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, Pia and Kiran Nalaar. Basically I swap out tempo threats for grind/value threats, it's been working a treat. I must admit that others may want to dedicate sideboard space to other MU's but my meta has been getting more and more grindy.
I also know that I am running the mana-base tightly by adding a 4-drop and sticking with 23 lands and 4 cantrips. I have also tested and liked Shadow of Doubt in and out of the slots taken by Spell Snare.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks
------------ URW Jeskai Control GUWRB Amulet Titan GR Ponza
No problem, always happy to share what I do. If I didn't do that then I wouldn't get the opportunity for people to point out mistakes I might make!
We technically haven't found an answer to the original question though... an aggressive sideboard bullet / hoser for us against Abzan. I don't think there truly is one card that fits the bill here, after all, Abzan is the epitome of a fair midrange deck, and has it's eggs in a lot of different baskets. If one card exists that hoses fair midrange it probably would or should be banned.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks
------------ URW Jeskai Control GUWRB Amulet Titan GR Ponza
Ajani is nice if you want to add some percentage against burn on top of your lategame bombs but is kind of meh otherwise, I don't think he is worth it in the side. Sunny Elspeth is gg against any grind deck but is so hard to resolve in blue matchups it is almost exclusively an anti-BGx card (with a nod to eldrazi I suppose). Elspeth KE has cool synergy with Geist but is otherwise completely overshadowed by Gideon AoZ. Gideon AoZ and jace AoT are my bombs of choice because of this
Hey folks! Since we are on the topic of specific matches...I have been having issues with a dude that plays WB Tokens. It's hard to manage all of his tokens and sorin/bitterblossom/anthems. In addition hand disruption tears away my sweepers and counter magic. Is this just a poor matchup? Do I just play more sweepers...go back to the old thundermaw hellkite plan? Does anyone have any suggestions?
Since you lost 2 games due to goblins I would bring in, in addition, mass removal, izzet staticaster and a negate also. I would cut those ancestral vision. The match up is favoured for us if we play conservatively, especially post sideboard we have tons of cards against them! I really love runed halo against them. Is super good, naming Grapeshot or also Goblin token
You cannot name goblin token with rune halo since it’s not a card name
Ajani is nice if you want to add some percentage against burn on top of your lategame bombs but is kind of meh otherwise, I don't think he is worth it in the side. Sunny Elspeth is gg against any grind deck but is so hard to resolve in blue matchups it is almost exclusively an anti-BGx card (with a nod to eldrazi I suppose). Elspeth KE has cool synergy with Geist but is otherwise completely overshadowed by Gideon AoZ. Gideon AoZ and jace AoT are my bombs of choice because of this
I suspect Ajani Vengeant sees play also because of his ability to lock a big dude, be it an Eldrazi or a Prime Time. It's a sweet ability, but not enough to convince me to play him, let alone in the maindeck (people usually play him maindeck).
You guys have touched on some reasons why Ajani Vengeant is just a really solid walker in so many non-combo MU's. His presence is Jeskai Draw-Go / Control lists can be explained by how his +1 plays out against creature threats. It fulfills a similar role to Gideon of the Trials, forcing an over-extension into a board wipe. This is one reason why he is main-decked in Draw-G0 / Control lists. But his +1 is so much more versatile - starving an opponent of a land can sometimes time walk them multiple times!
He is actually amazing Vs. GDS, where his -2 is often just the extra reach you need to close out a game in time. He's worthwhile against e-Tron (I'm looking at you, Reality Smasher), and most decks that are chasing your life total aggressively.
His ultimate is one of the most satisfying, and also one of the most sure, ways to win a game.
Hi, played this list yesterday night in a small tournament.
I've lost in top8 vs Storm
In G1 i had a t3 geist followed by some burn spells.
My sideboarding choices : -1 cryptic command -2 path to exile -2 electrolyze +2 relics +2 dispel +1 vendilion
In G2 i faced 8 goblins in t3/t4.
In G3 i kept 2 dispel + 1 logic knot + 4 lands, i was unsure about this hand, i think we need at least a threat to drop.
I drew a spell queller and i tried to keep my opponent at bay countering his mana acceleration hoping to draw something else but i saw only lands and lost to 8 goblins again. I was somehow disappointed by the result and started to think i took a bad decision. Would you keep that hand or not?
I would have mulled that hand, your right, you ideally want an early threat and a hate piece, or at least one of the two. 4 lands is a bit flooded with no threat, to boot. Planning to logic knot their mana reducer and then sit on 2 dispels is kind of like praying to the gods of your topdeck.
I think the main place to start here is your sideboard. Firstly, I would have brought in your singleton Supreme Verdict. You are soft to lingering souls and tokens in general. Supreme Verdict is effective but also the most awkward of answers, and you're only playing the 1 copy. I would start by trying to fit in one of Engineered Explosives, Izzet Staticaster or another Verdict. Another option is Detention Sphere. Your singletons of Stony Silence or Celestial Purge could be the possible cuts to make room here.
This is all assuming you want to keep your Ancestral Vision package in the board. An ancestral visions package in the sideboard is fine if you are playing control or BGx in 50% of your games, but this will limit your sideboard in other ways.
On another note, I would drop one cantrip and go up one land in your main-deck. 22 may work for you, but I would feel uncomfortable.
In any case, don't forget to account for goblins when facing storm!
I’ve been having fun/luck with the flash jeskai version. Most of the top decks feel very manageable. I realize my build is rather abnormal but a lot of the cards actually play well right now.
Not sure spellstutter sprite makes a whole lot of sense to me here.
Nimble obstructionist and spell queller both being non-faeries really hurts it.
Barring death's shadow, most of the things sprite hits are things jeskai already have a lot of answers for. Sprite being a really weak body, being weak on the draw, and offering nearly nothing in our bad matchups feels like too much to me. In actual faeries, where you can much more consistently use it as a spell snare, it still gets real awkward sometimes.
Not sure spellstutter sprite makes a whole lot of sense to me here.
Nimble obstructionist and spell queller both being non-faeries really hurts it.
Barring death's shadow, most of the things sprite hits are things jeskai already have a lot of answers for. Sprite being a really weak body, being weak on the draw, and offering nearly nothing in our bad matchups feels like too much to me. In actual faeries, where you can much more consistently use it as a spell snare, it still gets real awkward sometimes.
I’ve been feeling like it’s amazing. Almost everything is cmc 1-2 and it helps protect my quellers from removal very often while providing flying damage stil. It’s also just a great chump blocker.
You also stated in the state of the meta page that there are too many times jeskai just can’t win, what are those matchups out of couriosity?
I’ve been having fun/luck with the flash jeskai version. Most of the top decks feel very manageable. I realize my build is rather abnormal but a lot of the cards actually play well right now.
I’ve been having fun/luck with the flash jeskai version. Most of the top decks feel very manageable. I realize my build is rather abnormal but a lot of the cards actually play well right now.
It looks interesting, but how do you usually win games?
What have you tested this list against?
Also, maybe a restorarion angel would be nice here, blinking lot's of etb value creatures.
Oh and 3 ghost quarter looks a bit too greedy here.
I win by attacking and dealing 3 to the face. Don’t want 4 drops so that’s why no resto. I’ve played against all sorts or t1 and t2. Tron being the hardest to deal with.
Not sure spellstutter sprite makes a whole lot of sense to me here.
Nimble obstructionist and spell queller both being non-faeries really hurts it.
Barring death's shadow, most of the things sprite hits are things jeskai already have a lot of answers for. Sprite being a really weak body, being weak on the draw, and offering nearly nothing in our bad matchups feels like too much to me. In actual faeries, where you can much more consistently use it as a spell snare, it still gets real awkward sometimes.
I’ve been feeling like it’s amazing. Almost everything is cmc 1-2 and it helps protect my quellers from removal very often while providing flying damage stil. It’s also just a great chump blocker.
You also stated in the state of the meta page that there are too many times jeskai just can’t win, what are those matchups out of couriosity?
Its not exactly about matchups, but more about draws.
Dredge, for example, is basically an auto-loss a majority of the time. Sure, sometimes you'll draw your sideboard cards and it seems fine, but thats not going to happen every time.
For those who are still on Nahiri, anyone have any lists? (and I know that the geist build/traditional is performing better right now but I want to play nahiri)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
For those who are still on Nahiri, anyone have any lists? (and I know that the geist build/traditional is performing better right now but I want to play nahiri)
Yeap, same for me, but I can't seem to end up with a list I feel confident with.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
1x Desolate Lighthouse
3x Celestial Colonnade
4x Flooded Strand
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Hallowed Fountain
1x Steam Vents
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Spirebluff Canal
1x Steam Vents
3x Island
1x Plains
1x Mountain
4x Serum Visions
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Path to Exile
3x Lightning Helix
2x Mana Leak
1x Logic Knot
2x Spell Snare
2x Electrolyze
3x Cryptic Command
Creatures and Planeswalkers (12)
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Spell Queller
3x Geist of Saint Traft
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2x Dispel
1x Counterflux
2x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Wear // Tear
2x Rest in Peace
1x Gideon of the Trials
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2x Supreme Verdict
1x Detention Sphere
1x Engineered Explosives
Vs. Abzan
-4 Spell Queller
-1 Geist of Saint Traft
-1 Lightning Bolt
-1 Lightning Helix
-------------------------------
+1 Gideon of the Trials
+1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
+1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
+2 Supreme Verdict
+1 Detention Sphere
+1 Engineered Explosives
Spell Quellers come out due to the inevitability of their removal (3x Fatal Push, 3x Path to Exile, 2x Abrupt Decay, 1x Maelstrom Pulse are in most main-decks). I also aim to win games 2 and 3 long rather than with tempo beats. Geist gets trimmed for a similar reason but hexproof and the free win factor always make me retain 1 or 2 copies post-board. Burn gets shaved because in long games you don't want to be sitting on a bolt while facing down Lingering Souls, Tarmogoyf or even a delirium-fueled Grim Flayer. Detention Sphere deals with Liliana and Lingering Souls (better against souls than lili since if they decay it the tokens will not return).
I have really been appreciating the ability to reverse into a go-long control deck by replacing Geists with Gideons and P&K out of the sideboard. Combined with Supreme Verdict, Detention Sphere, and Engineered Explosives, I have been finding Abzan much more favourable than I used to. If I ever board out Geists or Quellers then my post-board threat package looks like 1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant, 1x Gideon of the Trials, 1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, Pia and Kiran Nalaar. Basically I swap out tempo threats for grind/value threats, it's been working a treat. I must admit that others may want to dedicate sideboard space to other MU's but my meta has been getting more and more grindy.
I also know that I am running the mana-base tightly by adding a 4-drop and sticking with 23 lands and 4 cantrips. I have also tested and liked Shadow of Doubt in and out of the slots taken by Spell Snare.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
We technically haven't found an answer to the original question though... an aggressive sideboard bullet / hoser for us against Abzan. I don't think there truly is one card that fits the bill here, after all, Abzan is the epitome of a fair midrange deck, and has it's eggs in a lot of different baskets. If one card exists that hoses fair midrange it probably would or should be banned.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
You cannot name goblin token with rune halo since it’s not a card name
22 lands? How does that work for you?
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
I'd forgotten about AOT... yes, he is the beez neez against Abzan!
You guys have touched on some reasons why Ajani Vengeant is just a really solid walker in so many non-combo MU's. His presence is Jeskai Draw-Go / Control lists can be explained by how his +1 plays out against creature threats. It fulfills a similar role to Gideon of the Trials, forcing an over-extension into a board wipe. This is one reason why he is main-decked in Draw-G0 / Control lists. But his +1 is so much more versatile - starving an opponent of a land can sometimes time walk them multiple times!
He is actually amazing Vs. GDS, where his -2 is often just the extra reach you need to close out a game in time. He's worthwhile against e-Tron (I'm looking at you, Reality Smasher), and most decks that are chasing your life total aggressively.
His ultimate is one of the most satisfying, and also one of the most sure, ways to win a game.
I would have mulled that hand, your right, you ideally want an early threat and a hate piece, or at least one of the two. 4 lands is a bit flooded with no threat, to boot. Planning to logic knot their mana reducer and then sit on 2 dispels is kind of like praying to the gods of your topdeck.
I think the main place to start here is your sideboard. Firstly, I would have brought in your singleton Supreme Verdict. You are soft to lingering souls and tokens in general. Supreme Verdict is effective but also the most awkward of answers, and you're only playing the 1 copy. I would start by trying to fit in one of Engineered Explosives, Izzet Staticaster or another Verdict. Another option is Detention Sphere. Your singletons of Stony Silence or Celestial Purge could be the possible cuts to make room here.
This is all assuming you want to keep your Ancestral Vision package in the board. An ancestral visions package in the sideboard is fine if you are playing control or BGx in 50% of your games, but this will limit your sideboard in other ways.
On another note, I would drop one cantrip and go up one land in your main-deck. 22 may work for you, but I would feel uncomfortable.
In any case, don't forget to account for goblins when facing storm!
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Nimble Obstructionist
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Spell Queller
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Vendilion Clique
Instant (20)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Mana Leak
4 Path to Exile
4 Remand
1 Spell Pierce
4 Flooded Strand
3 Ghost Quarter
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Spirebluff Canal
2 Steam Vents
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Celestial Purge
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Spell Snare
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Wear // Tear
Nimble obstructionist and spell queller both being non-faeries really hurts it.
Barring death's shadow, most of the things sprite hits are things jeskai already have a lot of answers for. Sprite being a really weak body, being weak on the draw, and offering nearly nothing in our bad matchups feels like too much to me. In actual faeries, where you can much more consistently use it as a spell snare, it still gets real awkward sometimes.
I’ve been feeling like it’s amazing. Almost everything is cmc 1-2 and it helps protect my quellers from removal very often while providing flying damage stil. It’s also just a great chump blocker.
You also stated in the state of the meta page that there are too many times jeskai just can’t win, what are those matchups out of couriosity?
It looks interesting, but how do you usually win games?
What have you tested this list against?
Also, maybe a restorarion angel would be nice here, blinking lot's of etb value creatures.
Oh and 3 ghost quarter looks a bit too greedy here.
I win by attacking and dealing 3 to the face. Don’t want 4 drops so that’s why no resto. I’ve played against all sorts or t1 and t2. Tron being the hardest to deal with.
Its not exactly about matchups, but more about draws.
Dredge, for example, is basically an auto-loss a majority of the time. Sure, sometimes you'll draw your sideboard cards and it seems fine, but thats not going to happen every time.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past