Keranos is good mostly against decks that don't really exist anymore, and only in certain board states. If thats not the definition of bad, I'm not sure what else is.
I like Young Pyromancer, which can be very good in builds now possible with 4 Serum visions + 4 Opt. Tapping out turn 2 for pyro is not as scary as tapping out turn 3 for geist against some punishing decks, like Storm. In value matchups pyro can be played later turns with mana up to generate tokens with some 1 mana spells before it's killed. Against decks with little removal, like company, elves etc. it can often take over the game competely.
I can't believe this. Peter Ingram took Nahiri control to a top 8 finish at SCG Classic Charlotte. I watched that guy flub wins away against aggro decks, but somehow he's making Nahiri control work. WTF?!
Are SCG events really that bad as far as the level of competition or is something else going on?
Obvious to say one results means absolutely nothing, but I'm always excited to see results with Nahiri because honestly it's my favourite version of the deck to play. 4 colonnades, cryptics over wraths and 4 sv no opt is interesting
I like Young Pyromancer, which can be very good in builds now possible with 4 Serum visions + 4 Opt. Tapping out turn 2 for pyro is not as scary as tapping out turn 3 for geist against some punishing decks, like Storm. In value matchups pyro can be played later turns with mana up to generate tokens with some 1 mana spells before it's killed. Against decks with little removal, like company, elves etc. it can often take over the game competely.
Just to add, now that most of us play 4 Spell Quellers that are vulnerable to removal, playing other vulnerable creatures (like pyromancers)to draw away the removal might not be such a bad idea. Before the time of Quellers, the deck was more resistant to removal, but that is no longer the case.
Delver Peezy Queller as the creature base of a jeskai tempo list actually does sound really fun. Your curve kind of has to end at 4 quellers after that though
Looks like all the Jeskai lists that made results at that SCG run only SV apart from the pure control draw go list. I am still puzzled by the right number but probably I will give the original list another try. I have seen Rosum playing only SV i think this weekend at SCG.
Interesting to see that no queller/geist midrange lists made it to top 32 in the SCG Open, despite it's popularity (~8% jeskai decks day 2). Brandon Dollaway ended 46th and Jonathan Rosum ended 65th. Only one jeskai in top 32 and that is a 4 snapcaster/1 Gearhulk list. The turning point for Rosum was when he tapped out for Pia and Kiran against Todd Stevens' GW Company, only to be punished by a six mana Elspeth on the other side of the table...
I'm gonna try make a build like that, more tempo and faster list. 4x Delvers, 4 pyros and 4 quellers, maybe 1 or 2 Geists anyway. I'll try it and get back to this thread with a list.
Looks like all the Jeskai lists that made results at that SCG run only SV apart from the pure control draw go list. I am still puzzled by the right number but probably I will give the original list another try. I have seen Rosum playing only SV i think this weekend at SCG.
Interesting to see that no queller/geist midrange lists made it to top 32 in the SCG Open, despite it's popularity (~8% jeskai decks day 2). Brandon Dollaway ended 46th and Jonathan Rosum ended 65th. Only one jeskai in top 32 and that is a 4 snapcaster/1 Gearhulk list. The turning point for Rosum was when he tapped out for Pia and Kiran against Todd Stevens' GW Company, only to be punished by a six mana Elspeth on the other side of the table...
Yes but I dont think it means the deck is not good anymore. There are no ETron lists as well but the deck is still a tier 1. I did not finish to watch Rosum's match against Stevens but I think GW Company is quite a bad match up for us unless we dont see mass removal to provide some advantage.
Rosum also lost to Storm (Paul Muller, the winner of the tournament) and Joshua Smith on Affinity. Brandon Dollaway lost to Ryan Webster on GR Ponza.
Storm is also what stopped Greatnate from 5-0'ing his last MTGO League, with a 0-2 loss: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSnrJ84i7K8&t=41s
Our clocks and Cryptic Commands are often too slow and clunky against storm.
I talked to both Firer and Rosum in Charlotte, and they said that both the Storm and Burn matchups are very hard to pilot. Once you know how to pilot the Burn matchup, you do great, but the Storm matchup is going back to every game and remembering where you screwed up, and then not doing that again. After you do that a lot then you get good
Burn should be an easy matchup if you play correctly, both spell queller and lightning helix are busted against them. Just keep fast hands, respect skullcrack effects and think carefully about how you plan your land drops
affinity should generally be a bye especially now most lists run electrolyze but sometimes you just get etched champion'd; it's kind of the only relevant card in their deck vs us
Storm is really tough as they essentially present lethal starting from turn 3 onward and gifts makes it hard to get a clock down even at instant speed. I'm fairly certain it is often correct to just slam some threat as early as possible and let them have it because otherwise they can just spend their time sculpting their hand and gather resources. You also have to actively practice gift piles because even though it tends to look like you're boned no matter what you give, there are a lot of percentages to gain there
Keranos and Elspeth aren't comparable. Keranos is good on board control aspects when Lightning Bolts are good. Otherwise, there are just better draw engines. Elspeth dominates a board that isn't completely out of control while protecting you.
Also, when I cast Keranos back in the day, I did not want to be behind on the board. That only complicates the math on whether you can take a turn off to do so.
Theyre not exactly similar but if youre closing out a game they do so in similar fashion altho keranos id argue is a bit faster... elspeth is a lot better at stabilizing though...
Keranos is good mostly against decks that don't really exist anymore, and only in certain board states. If thats not the definition of bad, I'm not sure what else is.
I wouldnt say that midrange/control decks dont exist.. they are actually quite prevalant... against bgx or uwx they wont have an answer for it once it resolves... if you play geist which is a similar card it's only good in certain board states also but ppl play it...
I use it every now and then.. and i favor it over elspeth but like ajani more now... it's not a mainstay or anything but it is one of the better cards you'd want in the relevant matchups..
Storm shouldnt be all that tough altho it really all depends on how much counter magic you have and if they have blood moon altho recent lists have foregone it... dispel is your best card here...
This is where leyline is much better than halo since it shuts off both gifts and grapeshot.. and having a plan against the tokens because they will empty for 3 or 4 whenever possible...
If you lean on cryptic they can punish you tho since they will eot gifts to get an opening...
Keranos is only faster if you're drawing non-lands for every trigger. In any case, good luck to you if you're running Keranos. I'm with CodyX on this one. It's straight up bad.
Keranos is only faster if you're drawing non-lands for every trigger. In any case, good luck to you if you're running Keranos. I'm with CodyX on this one. It's straight up bad.
And even that's not true lol, Sunny Elspeth's soldiers outrace Keranos easily even if you get a bolt every turn
Keranos saw play because UR decks saw play and used it, jeskai took over their tech
Keranos is only faster if you're drawing non-lands for every trigger. In any case, good luck to you if you're running Keranos. I'm with CodyX on this one. It's straight up bad.
And even that's not true lol, Sunny Elspeth's soldiers outrace Keranos easily even if you get a bolt every turn
Keranos saw play because UR decks saw play and used it, jeskai took over their tech
True. I was thinking of scenarios where you flip direct damage and then get to sling some direct damage and/or Snap it back.
Play Runed Halo guys - is very good against Storm (naming grapeshot; I play wreckage and EE that clean up goblins) - Halo also good against Valakut, GDS and ok against E-Tron and not terrible naming Etched Champion against Affinity.
ok well... elspeth vs keranos directly is a little faster but taking into account the casting cost keranos can come down sooner and overall you will probably do more damage...
more importantly it's much harder to interact with... which is important against the decks you bring it in against...
in any case... it's marginal either way and i don't even play it anymore... but it isn't bad by any stretch...
For keranos: G/B/X and U/W/X do still exist. UW also plays cards like detention sphere or celestial purge. GB plays discard. If they expect keranos, they have answers for it.
Also note that keranos is still an incredibly slow wincon. A 2/4 pretty much outraces him. As you may or may not be aware, pretty much every threat in the format is better than a 2/4. Gideons, colonnades, geists, etc. Goyfs, flayers, huntmaster, rhino, lingering souls, etc. are all pretty much just going to beat keranos. In some of the older jeskai decks, that were more controlling and less tempo, keranos worked a little better because every other card you had was an answer to some of these cards. In the current version, this isn't really the case.
Geist is distinctly different in that it comes down t3 vs t5, and deals 6 damage a turn, instead of ~2 (on average).
Sure, keranos is obviously not so bad as to have never been worth playing at all, but I will stand by my statement that any deck playing keranos is far better off reconfiguring its board such that it doesn't have to play keranos. Outside of jeskai, this is slightly less true, but I feel it still stands.
Counterflux isn't that good vs storm. They still have remands.
PiF gets boarded out sometimes. The deck can win with no reducers and a RiP in play a lot earlier than you might think (around t6 I believe?)
i don't want to belabor this argument too much since this is a bit silly... but just want to address your points:
a)UW will def not leave in dsphere or bring in celestial purge unless they see it in game 2... i know because i've played it in the past... there aren't too many players who will sideboard in purge blind with potentially zero targets.. and those that will you will probably beat them regardless of your 75...
b)keranos was one of the best sb cards against jund and gbx in general because they have exactly zero ways to remove it once it's on the board... it becomes a permanent race that doesn't get stonewalled by a single creature... or just one colonnade activation away from being gone...
elspeth has the problem of coming on later and being vulnerable... not that much more vulnerable but more vulnerable nevertheless because of pulse, direct damage or souls/colonnade/queller/geist...
c)yes when facing tons of creatures keranos is bad... any planeswalker including geist the mini-pw is really really bad... that's why you don't want to cast keranos unless it's really your last card but preferably when you have the board under control... if you're facing a single goyf you might be able to race it or even remove it with drawing a single bolt...
with keranos.. the game will end in some fashion in 5 or less turns... you might lose that race if they topdeck well or if you're behind on board but on even or better you are heavily favored and you will be in that situation A LOT against midrange mirrors since the removal and threat ratios are basically even... what tilts the matchup for diff decks are the hard to answer threats... gbx has liliana, UW has their gideons and jeskai has geists.. but if you don't use geist then you'll probably need something like keranos or ajani or gideon or gearhulk or whoever to tilt those games back in your favor...
again... i think this is a silly discussion.. it's way too many words for a single sb slot... the deck that hit top 12 in this weekend's open had a keranos in the board so you obviously can have some success with it... and i obviously agree with you somewhat since i'm not actively playing it but i am just contesting what you said about it being terrible... it definitely is not that but we can respectfully disagree...
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I like Young Pyromancer, which can be very good in builds now possible with 4 Serum visions + 4 Opt. Tapping out turn 2 for pyro is not as scary as tapping out turn 3 for geist against some punishing decks, like Storm. In value matchups pyro can be played later turns with mana up to generate tokens with some 1 mana spells before it's killed. Against decks with little removal, like company, elves etc. it can often take over the game competely.
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
Here is the list if people are interested;
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/794645#paper
Obvious to say one results means absolutely nothing, but I'm always excited to see results with Nahiri because honestly it's my favourite version of the deck to play. 4 colonnades, cryptics over wraths and 4 sv no opt is interesting
Just to add, now that most of us play 4 Spell Quellers that are vulnerable to removal, playing other vulnerable creatures (like pyromancers)to draw away the removal might not be such a bad idea. Before the time of Quellers, the deck was more resistant to removal, but that is no longer the case.
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
Interesting to see that no queller/geist midrange lists made it to top 32 in the SCG Open, despite it's popularity (~8% jeskai decks day 2). Brandon Dollaway ended 46th and Jonathan Rosum ended 65th. Only one jeskai in top 32 and that is a 4 snapcaster/1 Gearhulk list. The turning point for Rosum was when he tapped out for Pia and Kiran against Todd Stevens' GW Company, only to be punished by a six mana Elspeth on the other side of the table...
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
Rosum also lost to Storm (Paul Muller, the winner of the tournament) and Joshua Smith on Affinity. Brandon Dollaway lost to Ryan Webster on GR Ponza.
Storm is also what stopped Greatnate from 5-0'ing his last MTGO League, with a 0-2 loss: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSnrJ84i7K8&t=41s
Our clocks and Cryptic Commands are often too slow and clunky against storm.
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
UWR Control
BR Hollow One
affinity should generally be a bye especially now most lists run electrolyze but sometimes you just get etched champion'd; it's kind of the only relevant card in their deck vs us
Storm is really tough as they essentially present lethal starting from turn 3 onward and gifts makes it hard to get a clock down even at instant speed. I'm fairly certain it is often correct to just slam some threat as early as possible and let them have it because otherwise they can just spend their time sculpting their hand and gather resources. You also have to actively practice gift piles because even though it tends to look like you're boned no matter what you give, there are a lot of percentages to gain there
Theyre not exactly similar but if youre closing out a game they do so in similar fashion altho keranos id argue is a bit faster... elspeth is a lot better at stabilizing though...
I wouldnt say that midrange/control decks dont exist.. they are actually quite prevalant... against bgx or uwx they wont have an answer for it once it resolves... if you play geist which is a similar card it's only good in certain board states also but ppl play it...
I use it every now and then.. and i favor it over elspeth but like ajani more now... it's not a mainstay or anything but it is one of the better cards you'd want in the relevant matchups..
This is where leyline is much better than halo since it shuts off both gifts and grapeshot.. and having a plan against the tokens because they will empty for 3 or 4 whenever possible...
If you lean on cryptic they can punish you tho since they will eot gifts to get an opening...
And even that's not true lol, Sunny Elspeth's soldiers outrace Keranos easily even if you get a bolt every turn
Keranos saw play because UR decks saw play and used it, jeskai took over their tech
True. I was thinking of scenarios where you flip direct damage and then get to sling some direct damage and/or Snap it back.
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
more importantly it's much harder to interact with... which is important against the decks you bring it in against...
in any case... it's marginal either way and i don't even play it anymore... but it isn't bad by any stretch...
Also note that keranos is still an incredibly slow wincon. A 2/4 pretty much outraces him. As you may or may not be aware, pretty much every threat in the format is better than a 2/4. Gideons, colonnades, geists, etc. Goyfs, flayers, huntmaster, rhino, lingering souls, etc. are all pretty much just going to beat keranos. In some of the older jeskai decks, that were more controlling and less tempo, keranos worked a little better because every other card you had was an answer to some of these cards. In the current version, this isn't really the case.
Geist is distinctly different in that it comes down t3 vs t5, and deals 6 damage a turn, instead of ~2 (on average).
Sure, keranos is obviously not so bad as to have never been worth playing at all, but I will stand by my statement that any deck playing keranos is far better off reconfiguring its board such that it doesn't have to play keranos. Outside of jeskai, this is slightly less true, but I feel it still stands.
Counterflux isn't that good vs storm. They still have remands.
PiF gets boarded out sometimes. The deck can win with no reducers and a RiP in play a lot earlier than you might think (around t6 I believe?)
I haven't been overly impressed with pia though.
Kinda debating on if Gideon or Elspeth is better for the grindier matchups.
a)UW will def not leave in dsphere or bring in celestial purge unless they see it in game 2... i know because i've played it in the past... there aren't too many players who will sideboard in purge blind with potentially zero targets.. and those that will you will probably beat them regardless of your 75...
b)keranos was one of the best sb cards against jund and gbx in general because they have exactly zero ways to remove it once it's on the board... it becomes a permanent race that doesn't get stonewalled by a single creature... or just one colonnade activation away from being gone...
elspeth has the problem of coming on later and being vulnerable... not that much more vulnerable but more vulnerable nevertheless because of pulse, direct damage or souls/colonnade/queller/geist...
c)yes when facing tons of creatures keranos is bad... any planeswalker including geist the mini-pw is really really bad... that's why you don't want to cast keranos unless it's really your last card but preferably when you have the board under control... if you're facing a single goyf you might be able to race it or even remove it with drawing a single bolt...
with keranos.. the game will end in some fashion in 5 or less turns... you might lose that race if they topdeck well or if you're behind on board but on even or better you are heavily favored and you will be in that situation A LOT against midrange mirrors since the removal and threat ratios are basically even... what tilts the matchup for diff decks are the hard to answer threats... gbx has liliana, UW has their gideons and jeskai has geists.. but if you don't use geist then you'll probably need something like keranos or ajani or gideon or gearhulk or whoever to tilt those games back in your favor...
again... i think this is a silly discussion.. it's way too many words for a single sb slot... the deck that hit top 12 in this weekend's open had a keranos in the board so you obviously can have some success with it... and i obviously agree with you somewhat since i'm not actively playing it but i am just contesting what you said about it being terrible... it definitely is not that but we can respectfully disagree...