Yeah, 2 dredge top 8ed, 1 was in the top 2. So were still doing good. I heard that meta was not prepped for grave hate, so it was a bit soft. that also explains why living end did well. I still think the haunted dead over devil is probably "margenally right depending on the meta." 21 probaly is also margonally right. I know Ive been fustrated with lands. And that ties into loams as well I'm sure. Loam diff IS the better spell than thug, though thug is the better dredger.
For what its worth, unless we see dredge destroy this gp streaming now, as said before. were like affinity. Good when were good, bad when were bad, which is a GOOD spot for us.
With several Modern Pro Tour Top 8's to his name, Lee Shi Tian is no stranger to figuring out this format, but where he went with it this time I don't think anyone expected.
"I figured with Golgari Grave-Troll banned, people wouldn't sideboard against Dredge anymore," Lee explained, "and it turned out that it's still very good, even without Grave-Troll."
Lee entered the Top 8 in first place this weekend, and Takahashi wasn't far behind in fourth place. The pair faced off in the Semifinals and Takahashi emerged victorious to advance to the Finals, where he succumbed to Oliver Oks' Lantern Control deck, which did include at least some sideboard cards against Dredge.
I think I'll be using his exact list and decide about the -1 thug, 4 loams and 21 lands for my self. His sideboard is probably perfect, however. Looks like we were all right about going heavy on discard lately/
His sideboard is only perfect moving forward if people ignore Brisbane and focus on vancouver in the coming weeks. Two dredge lists in the top 4 of a gp tends to remind people to pack hate.
Mainboard Collective Brutality is interesting. Keeps the discard outlet up to compensate having no Haunted Dead and only two Conflagrate in the main, while giving the deck a bit more interaction in Game 1.
I am still confused by Lee's reasoning to his choices. I totally understand wanting 4 loam. But what really weirds me out is that he is saying he wants loam more than thug. I get wanting Thug more, and I get wanting them an equal amount, but cutting thug down to 3 and announcing that the extra dig doesn't matter as much to you is just odd. From his mainboard configuration I think I'd have opted for the fouth thug over the extra land. Speaking of the land, it wasn't even a utility land. He just added an extra fetch. Pretty confusing... looking forward to the testing in weeks to come. For now, I'll be testing this:
Having 3 lands in the first few turns of the game is also really important, so that you can go turn 3 flashback looting, turn 4 dredge loam, play loam, make your fourth land drop and flashback you conflagrate for like 4 to 8 damage. (pretty much how it goes in half of my games)
This is a really interesting point, and seems to lend itself to having the 4th Loam. Even without the 3rd conflagrate, Loam is the easiest thing to Dredge, then use, in the same turn. Which puts it right nack into the graveyard for the next turn. In a way, this may increase consistency lost from not using Thug.
At the end of the day, swapping 4th loam for 4th Thug doesn't seem like it would negatively affect consistency mostly because its 1 card that dredges for 1 less. In the course of a game, this seems less important perhaps than having a easily reusable dredge card in Loam instead of Thug.
TL;DR; Lee Shi Tian plays way more MTG than I do. Its certainly worth trying this list before I say dropping to 3 thug is wrong.
Anyway. I agree pharaoh is one of the best answers for the deaths shadow we got. Further more, the difference here is a minor one, but it has a big impact. Loam is the worst dredger, but better spell than thug is. You rarely want to cast thug. Loam, closer to the end of the game, gets casted alot, sometimes you actually hold one so you can turn 6 cast, cast, then conflag for 10.
Other times you dredge loam for lands on turn 2 so you can flash back looting turn 3, even with a thug in the grave.
Pretty happy with the performance of the deck, though I would take out the Memory's Journey for an abrupt decay or destructive rev.
Matchups:
Round 1 - Jund
Game 1
Mulled to 6 and kept a 2 lander with a faithless looting on the draw, scryed mom-hug to the top. He fetch-shocks thoughtsiezes and takes faithless, then plays a t2 bob. I turn 2 mom-hug and hit some jellys and amalgams and a conflagrate, and after he takes 2 off bob and terminates and bolts 2 amalgams, I make a land drop, return a ghast and the zombies, and conflagrate him below 10 and kill the bob.
Boarded in lightning axe for goyfs/scooze and collective brutality for angers
Game 2
Kept an alright 7 card hand, he leads with inquisition into bob into goyf, then just burns me out before I can get the engine going
Game 3
Mulled to 6 and kept a gooder with faithless and 2 reunions. Start off strong and get the dredge engine going, but hit only conflagrates and amalgams for a few turns. I just kept dredging until he played a scooze with 2 green open and ate some amalgams. After loaming and killing his scooze, he plays 2 goyfs and I continue to whiff on jellyfish. After bolting me to death, I look and see all 4 narcomoebas in the last 10 cards of the deck!
0-1
Round 2 - Abzan Coco
Game 1
Lost the die roll and we both mull to 6. He starts on breeding pool into heirarch, and I think infect. When i go copperline into looting he lets out an exasperated sigh. T2 he plays more dorks and a tapped godless shrine so, and I realize he's on Abzan. I conflagrate his dorks, make some ghasts, and he never hits his 2nd land before getting dredged out.
Boarded in lightning axe assuming infinite combo, darkblasts for dorks, and memory's journey because I wanted to justify having that card in my board...
Game 2
Kept a sketchy 1 lander on a mull to 6 and just never got there. He shows me the infinite life combo and I scoop and we go to G3
Game 3
Mull to 6 again, this time with plenty of land and gas. He stumbles on land and plays out a noble on t1 and 2 more on t2, and I hit a conflagrate on my turn 3 and blow him out of the water, then get there with ghasts and jellys. He says that he wasn't expected dredge at all, and we had a talk about how hopefully graveyard hate stays away for awhile.
1-1
Round 3 - Bant Eldrazi
Game 1
Lose the die roll, he mulls to 6 and I mull to 5. He starts on fetch into temple garden and plays an ancient stirrings, finding eldrazi temple. I go copperline gorge into looting, and he laughs and says 'really? dredge?'. I draw some lands off the looting, discard some dredgers and get ready to go to eldrazi town. He plays a skyspawner off his temple and temple, which we realized later he couldn't had done, and I make a bunch of dudes on t2. He plays a wastes, sacs his scion and plays a smasher, putting me to 15 while a narcomoeba keeps the skyspawner at bay. Next turn he plays a land, paths an amalgam, swings for 5. Next turn he plays displacer, hits for 5 and passes. Meanwhile I've been growing my jelly/ghast/amalgam army and chipping away with ghasts. I untap, conflagrate him to 10 and blow up his blockers, then swing for lethal.
Boarded in lightning axe and pharaoh, and gnaw to the bone
Game 2
We both mull to 6, he plays a shock tapped and passes. I do dredge things for a couple turns while he plays his eldrazi temple and does nothing. Turns out he kept a 2 lander with explosives and thoughtknots, hoping to hit the 3rd land but never did. I crush him easily and we chat about how much eldrazi and tron are in the room.
2-1
Round 4 - GR Tron
Game 1
Won the die roll, kept a sick hand with neonate, 2 faithless, 2 land, thug and loam. Killed him on t4 with scourge devil before he could do a thing.
Boarded in grudges and thoughtseize.
Game 2
Kept a not terrible hand with a looting and a thoughtsieze in it. He mulls to 6 and starts on grove into grafdiggers cage. I cast looting on t1, find a neonate and a steam vents, and go to work on the bad beatdown plan. T2 he plays another grove, casts a stirrings and finds a chromatic sphere, then plays it and passes. I play the neonate, and thoughtsieze to see what he kept. He shows me karn, ugin, and another sphere. Well, I guess mulling to gravyard hate works. I take the sphere and hope that I can get there before he casts either walker. I slowly beatdown for a few turns as he chains spheres into stars and stirrings, and then finds a firespout and wipes my board. Eventually he gets tron, casts ugin, and I accept defeat.
Game 3
He mulls to 5, and I keep a solid 7 card hand. I do dredge things, he doesn't play a cage turn 1, and I kill him swiftly. We chatted after about his japanese antiquities urza lands and altered foil karns (they had sombreros and maracas!)
3-1
Round 5 - Rug delver with hooting mandrills
Game 1
Mull to 6, kept an okay hand and lost the die roll. He starts with misty and passes. I figure he has spell pierce up and so I opt to play a neonate instead of looting. He fetch-shocks and plays stubborn denial!. Next turn he plays a thoughtscour on himself, fetches for a forest and then plays a hooting mandrills, seems good. I proceed to do dredge things after drawing another looting, and then we race between 2 ghasts and a 4/4 trample. The game ended when he attacked and I brought out haunted dead to block an extra damage of the hooting mandrills so he couldn't snap tarfire me to death, and then kill him on the crackback while sitting at 3 life.
Boarded in lightning axe, memory's journey, pharaoh, and some brutalities since I figured that he had delver of secrets and angers.
Game 2
He mulls to 5 and starts with land delver of secrets. I go for the t1 looting into t2 brutality, discarding his anger of the gods, killing his unflipped delver, and draining some life. That was pretty well the game, and he was a little salty about having to face dredge.
4-1
Round 6 - Mono-white death and taxes
Game 1
This is not a deck I expected. He wins the die roll, we both keep 7, and he leads with ghost quarter into aether vial. I do dredge things, he vials a throbbing inspector and cracks his clue, I do more dredge things, he vials in a leonin arbiter, plays another GQ, and then double strip mines me and paths an amalgam. Holy value batman. I manage to stem the bleeding with dakmor salvage, and stall the board out while he tries to topdeck gas. I start drawing normally, and it takes 3 turns before I hit a land, then conflagrate his board and that was the game.
Boarded - Grudge, collective brutality, explosives, and thoughtsieze.
Game 2
Mulled to 6, he kept his 7. He didn't have the GQ/arbiter combo, but he had a fast beatdown start with thalia, which is surprisingly good against us. I was stuck on 2 lands and couldn't find a loam for a while, but I conflagrate his board and we both just topdeck for a bit. I finally hit a loam, but it's off of a faithless looting so I pass the turn. He topdecks grafdiggers cage, slams it and passes. I start drawing normally, but his beatdown plan is much better so he gets there while I stare at the 2 grudges already in my graveyard...
Game 3
Kept a good 7, knowing he could have Rip. I go neonate on t1, make sure there's no cage, then dredge a stinky. Hit 5 lands, untap draw a looting, then go double looting to try hit amalgams and jellys, but don't. He plays t2 rip, and that was game over. The guy was really nice, and shows me 2 cage, 3 rips, and 2 surgicals that he boarded in xD.
4-2
Round 7 - Eldrazi Tron
Game 1
This is where I realized I was exhausted. I accidentally drew 8 cards while we waited for the round to start, so we call the judge over and he says I can either let my opponent select a card and put it on the bottom of my deck or I can immediately mull to 6. I opt to mull, keep a good 6 and hoped he wasn't on jund. He starts with tower into map, so I'm hopeful. T2 he plays an eldrazi temple and cracks map to find another eldrazi temple, and I quickly realize what the scoop is. He plays a chalice on 1, then dismembers an amalgam and warping wails a bloodghast, but I killed him while at 4 with a scourge devil from 14.
Boarded in grudge, explosives, thoughtsieze, and pharaoh. I think I may have over boarded this game, probably didn't need to put in explosives or pharaoh but after 7 rounds of magic I was ready for a break.
Game 2
He has a good start with t2 thoughtknot, t3 smasher, t4 walking ballista, t5 nulamog. Yea, can't beat that.
Game 3
He mulls to 6 but once again has a good start, set up to have tron on t3. I do dredge things and make some ghasts and amalgams and start to try getting in there. T3 he dismembers an amalgam, plays a chalice on 1 and a smasher, seems good. I dredge into pharaoh and grudge, grudge the chalice and he calls a judge saying it should be countered. We move on, he hits for 5 and plays a pithing needle naming stinkweed imp. I proceed to dredge stinkweed imp and we have another chat with the judge, who is now watching the game. I cast stinkweed imp to try and stop his smasher, then realize that I missed the pharaoh trigger, and play the explosives on 0 and keep up 2 in case he plays a ballista. He topdecks another smasher, and I take 8, go to 4 and kill both of them, and he rereads smasher to understand that I don't need to discard for the pharaoh ability. I put him to 6 with ghasts and a conflagrate, then pass. He topdecks walking ballista, casts it for 4 and I extend the hand. Had I not missed the trigger, I would've won! Always remember your triggers folks.
4-3
Overall I was just happy to be playing modern, and not seeing as much graveyard hate anymore for the most part. I figured I had to win out to make prizing, so I dropped and played legacy side events instead (didn't do so hot there either, but I picked up some tix and helped my friend get a box for profit). Maindeck felt solid, haunted dead and scourge devil typically get sided out but are sick in the main for the surprise kill or blocker. Memory's journey was useless, and I didn't see much to use darkblast for now that infect is no longer at the top tables. All day all around me was delver, eldrazi, tron, and valakut decks. Looking around day 2 I saw lots of eldrazi, death shadow jund, and valakut. I only talked with one other guy playing dredge, not sure if he was the one who top 32d but I saw him playing day 2.
Yeah. It seems like dredge is on a balancing act. Its good, but might not be good enough. I think anything like a scrapheap scrounger that is slightly more pushed will put us back into solid tier 1. We are CLEARLY good enough to put 3 top results with grave hate getting light. So basically affinity, but slightly worse RNG it seems.
When AMONKHET comes out I will be constantly feeling like this:
Hey guys top 16'd GP Van with Dredge, was mostly good. Collective Brutality was nice, I liked being able to kill scooze with it and rip an anger of the gods or something like that depending on the matchup. Memory's Journey literally never got sided in and not playing Darkblast in the 75 was a huge mistake. Still, was 11-2 going into round 14 and lost to Bant Eldrazi 1-2 after the deck just didn't function in games two and three.
Pretty close to a top 8, felt relatively unlucky to lose game two in particular where his hand was not great by any stretch. Think dredge is fine, but wouldn't necessarily be looking to play it again in the near future as I'm really ambivalent about the newer versions ability to beat hate if people start actually playing it again. Death's Shadow Jund matchup is also a little sketchy, although the lower TBR count makes it probably passable.
Losses were to Bant in 14, Abzan in 6, and Infect in 9. Any questions ask away, happy to see Dredge put up some #s this weekend!
Hey guys top 16'd GP Van with Dredge, was mostly good. Collective Brutality was nice, I liked being able to kill scooze with it and rip an anger of the gods or something like that depending on the matchup. Memory's Journey literally never got sided in and not playing Darkblast in the 75 was a huge mistake. Still, was 11-2 going into round 14 and lost to Bant Eldrazi 1-2 after the deck just didn't function in games two and three.
Pretty close to a top 8, felt relatively unlucky to lose game two in particular where his hand was not great by any stretch. Think dredge is fine, but wouldn't necessarily be looking to play it again in the near future as I'm really ambivalent about the newer versions ability to beat hate if people start actually playing it again. Death's Shadow Jund matchup is also a little sketchy, although the lower TBR count makes it probably passable.
Losses were to Bant in 14, Abzan in 6, and Infect in 9. Any questions ask away, happy to see Dredge put up some #s this weekend!
First off, thanks for coming by. I cant stress enough how much I love seeing people from GPs or Protours dropping in to share some info. Helps everyone and the archtype as a whole. Also, congrats! Thanks for pushing dredge forward!
Now I'll ask a laundry list of questions if its cool. I just wanna make sure I and anyone who reads this can keep pushing dredge to the highest it can go (But not too much, I dont want another ban.)
1. Devil or Haunted dead? The japanese opted for haunted for blocking, stalling, extra repeat bodies, and the discard. Did you feel like Devil pushed in enough damage he was always the better option than haunted? Are there times Haunted's discard and/or chump bodies would have served better? With all that info, which was likely the better card?
2. Im of the opinion right now we are more like legacy dredge than ever. Really soft to sideboard hate, but when its cut, were great. Do you feel that this is the decks future right now?
3. You are running 2 conflag, and 1 in the side. How often was that thing coming into the main? Would it have been better to run it main?
4. Like above, brutality in the main. I'm generally against non grave stuffs in the main, but is it good enough that realistically its got too many uses NOT to run main rather than side? For example, I run lightning axe main when the meta is all creatures, and it just acts as another enabler like neonate or looting. Is the meta currently in that way that the discard/2 life/disfigure is just worth the main inclusion?
5. As far as the darkblast not in the 75, I agree with you, but for everyone else, why exactly is that a point that sticks out for you in the deck?
6. Just for spoilers comin' up, what exactly are you looking for in amonket to make the deck stronger? Go ahead and give us the dream cards on your short list. What would make you pick the deck up again.
7. Looking at the japanese lists, what do you think of them going forward?
Again, Thank you so much for running the archetype, and coming by to talk with us!
First off, thanks for coming by. I cant stress enough how much I love seeing people from GPs or Protours dropping in to share some info. Helps everyone and the archtype as a whole. Also, congrats! Thanks for pushing dredge forward!
Now I'll ask a laundry list of questions if its cool. I just wanna make sure I and anyone who reads this can keep pushing dredge to the highest it can go (But not too much, I dont want another ban.)
1. Devil or Haunted dead? The japanese opted for haunted for blocking, stalling, extra repeat bodies, and the discard. Did you feel like Devil pushed in enough damage he was always the better option than haunted? Are there times Haunted's discard and/or chump bodies would have served better? With all that info, which was likely the better card?
I did a little bit of testing with both and generally liked Scourge Devil a little bit more, felt like it shored up some of the big mana matchups a little bit more which I felt like were not as good as they had been in the past. Specifically felt like this helped vs both Tron and RG Shift/Breach decks. Dead is much better versus Infect and Affinity, but Affinity is already a pretty good matchup and Infect is likely still a bad one. Considered Rally the Peasants but found that in testing Rally rarely actually dealt more than Devil as you get the additional 4 power attacker as well. Having one extra way to trigger Amalgam is obviously nice as well.
2. Im of the opinion right now we are more like legacy dredge than ever. Really soft to sideboard hate, but when its cut, were great. Do you feel that this is the decks future right now?
Yes - graveyard hate is harder to beat, but it also makes a lot less sense to be running a ton of it unlike in Legacy where it is almost a no brainer. So I guess I would say sort of? I think this deck is positioned better going forward in Modern than it is in Legacy.
3. You are running 2 conflag, and 1 in the side. How often was that thing coming into the main? Would it have been better to run it main?
Felt like two was the number needed to see it in most matchups. Rarely able to cast double effectively in the same game. Third was for stuff like Affinity and Abzan Company where you really need one quickly. In a lot of the other matchups was more often using it as reach to end the game as opposed to killing memnites and mana dorks.
4. Like above, brutality in the main. I'm generally against non grave stuffs in the main, but is it good enough that realistically its got too many uses NOT to run main rather than side? For example, I run lightning axe main when the meta is all creatures, and it just acts as another enabler like neonate or looting. Is the meta currently in that way that the discard/2 life/disfigure is just worth the main inclusion?
Thought burn would be the aggro deck of choice, and generally feel like Dredge has a slightly shakier fast aggro matchup than you would think, especially versus a lot of reach. I really liked that I could play a maindeck "hate" card, that also could take anger of the gods and sometimes kill ooze. Pretty solid game one performer, although it generally is sided out for a more specific card.
5. As far as the darkblast not in the 75, I agree with you, but for everyone else, why exactly is that a point that sticks out for you in the deck?
Still don't think I would maindeck it, but I really like having access to more effects. Darkblast is an insane sideboard card because it is really the only card with Dredge that is also interaction. If you are actually killing things with it, it can almost singlehandedly win you a game. That is too powerful not to play.
6. Just for spoilers comin' up, what exactly are you looking for in amonket to make the deck stronger? Go ahead and give us the dream cards on your short list. What would make you pick the deck up again.
Oddly enough something that strengthened one of the other archetypes that require a sideboard tax so to speak would probably make me lean more towards playing this as opposed to something actually good for dredge. If Affinity (or another linear deck that we match up decently against) got a nice piece it makes Dredge much stronger, I think. Especially at the GP level.
7. Looking at the japanese lists, what do you think of them going forward?
Look pretty similar to mine but probably better. Not 100% sold on 21st land, but 4th loam seems better than 4th thug if we are sticking on that exact # of dredgers. I still like collective brutality, but can certainly understand why others might not.
Again, Thank you so much for running the archetype, and coming by to talk with us!
What is your sideboard plan against Tron-Decks? In my opinion it is a very tough matchup. I thought about a couple of Ghost Quarters in the sideboard and reccur them with life from the loam could be a decent plan.
Any thoughts?
I assume you mean the big mana tron decks and not the eldrazi-tron hybrids that are popping up these days. My preference is something like this:
Moving away from the 5c manabase to a manabase with 7 fetches improves this matchup quite a bit in game one - you really just have to fade their absolute best draws and set up Bloodghast -> Amalgams on end step.
Post board Tron getting more graveyard hate in addition to the whole Ugin/O-stone thing can be pretty rough. Like pretty much every matchup you have to lean on winning game one and then hoping they mulligan a little too much or simply keep a hand that is good but not hateful.
I'm not 100% on Thoughtseize against Tron, but generally like it against all the big mana decks. Knowing exactly what you are playing around can be a big help in getting there and avoiding catastrophe.
Not sure exactly how everyone else boards, but I cut one Dakmor Salvage in every matchup that isn't primarily about longer games and Bloodghast recursion.
Against Eldrazi-Tron I think you are heaaaaaaavily favored in game one and likely still favored in boarded games.
I figured burn would be a little more popular than it seemed to be, but I like Gnaw to the Bone quite well against zoo style decks as well. I think with only one you are a little too unlikely to find it in time, it is also even more powerful if you actually draw one as it is mostly unbeatable if you are even sort of functioning.
Darkblast is either a 10 or a 1, which is sort of awkward as a maindeck card, but I think it is foolish not to give yourself the chance to draw one at least in sideboarded games. Against both Infect and Affinity it is an enabler and removal spell wrapped up in one.
To be totally honest, I don't know that my input on dredge is especially effective, it's not like I play it a ton just try to find the best positioned deck for whatever GP I happen to be attending each month or so.
I'm generally looking at cutting a Dakmor Salvage and an Insolent Neonate, then look at Brutality, then look at cutting conf/loam next, then sometimes a narco or bloodghast if either seems especially ineffective. If more than that is coming out I can't help but feel like you are oversideboarding. I really liked thoughtseize as a 3 of, and Nature's Claim was fine at 3 as well. Unsure if it is better than Natural State/Decay in a more defined metagame but didn't want to be 100% cold to Leyline.
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Bye
2-0 vs RW Prison
1-2 vs Mono-U Turns
2-1 vs Bant Eldrazi
1-2 vs BW D&T (no Eldrazi)
2-0 vs Jeskai Control
Not as good as Team MtgMintCard but I'm satisfied with the result for my first GP
Dredge (117-70 W/L in games) (Pre-GGT ban: 103-70 W/L in games)
Looks like they were right.
Way to keep the faith, everyone!
Modern: Bogles // 8-Whack/Goblins // UW Titan // Hollow One // Affinity // Dredge
EDH: Nissa, Vastwood Seer // Atraxa, Praetor's Voice // Meren of Clan Nel Toth
For what its worth, unless we see dredge destroy this gp streaming now, as said before. were like affinity. Good when were good, bad when were bad, which is a GOOD spot for us.
Unless they break something in the next set.
3 Golgari Thug
1 Haunted Dead
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Cathartic Reunion
3 Conflagrate
4 Faithless Looting
4 Life from the Loam
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Copperline Gorge
2 Dakmor Salvage
2 Mountain
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Gemstone Mine
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Darkblast
1 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Lightning Axe
3 Collective Brutality
3 Thoughtseize
With several Modern Pro Tour Top 8's to his name, Lee Shi Tian is no stranger to figuring out this format, but where he went with it this time I don't think anyone expected.
"I figured with Golgari Grave-Troll banned, people wouldn't sideboard against Dredge anymore," Lee explained, "and it turned out that it's still very good, even without Grave-Troll."
Lee entered the Top 8 in first place this weekend, and Takahashi wasn't far behind in fourth place. The pair faced off in the Semifinals and Takahashi emerged victorious to advance to the Finals, where he succumbed to Oliver Oks' Lantern Control deck, which did include at least some sideboard cards against Dredge.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpbri17/grand-prix-brisbane-finals-2017-02-19
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
1 Scourge Devil
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Insolent Neonate
Sorcery (15)
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cathartic Reunion
3 Life from the Loam
2 Collective Brutality
2 Conflagrate
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Dakmor Salvage
2 Mountain
4 Copperline Gorge
2 Blood Crypt
2 Stomping Ground
1 Steam Vents
1 Conflagrate
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Nature's Claim
3 Thoughtseize
2 Memory's Journey
2 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Lightning Axe
Mainboard Collective Brutality is interesting. Keeps the discard outlet up to compensate having no Haunted Dead and only two Conflagrate in the main, while giving the deck a bit more interaction in Game 1.
Modern:
Dredge | Restore Balance | Titanshift
My [360][Unpowered][Modern-Frame] Cube
2x Blackcleave Cliffs
2x Blood Crypt
2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Copperline Gorge
2x Dakmor Salvage
1x Forest
1x Mana Confluence
1x Mountain
1x Steam Vents
2x Stomping Ground
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Bloodghast
4x Golgari Thug
4x Insolent Neonate
4x Narcomoeba
4x Prized Amalgam
1x Scourge Devil
4x Stinkweed Imp
Sorcery (14)
4x Cathartic Reunion
3x Conflagrate
4x Faithless Looting
4x Life from the Loam
1x Bojuka Bog
3x Collective Brutality
1x Darkblast
1x Gnaw to the Bone
2x Lightning Axe
4x Natural State
2x Thoughtseize
1x Vengeful Pharaoh
Pharoah seems like the best option to respond to all the Death's Shadow. As does push or decay, but I'm less sure of those options
GB Graveyard(Rip Copter)Modern:
Dredge RBGU (AND WE BACK)
Suicide BlooUR(WotC Why )Living End RBG
Bloo MoonUR
Legacy:
Aluren BGU
This is a really interesting point, and seems to lend itself to having the 4th Loam. Even without the 3rd conflagrate, Loam is the easiest thing to Dredge, then use, in the same turn. Which puts it right nack into the graveyard for the next turn. In a way, this may increase consistency lost from not using Thug.
At the end of the day, swapping 4th loam for 4th Thug doesn't seem like it would negatively affect consistency mostly because its 1 card that dredges for 1 less. In the course of a game, this seems less important perhaps than having a easily reusable dredge card in Loam instead of Thug.
TL;DR; Lee Shi Tian plays way more MTG than I do. Its certainly worth trying this list before I say dropping to 3 thug is wrong.
Modern: Bogles // 8-Whack/Goblins // UW Titan // Hollow One // Affinity // Dredge
EDH: Nissa, Vastwood Seer // Atraxa, Praetor's Voice // Meren of Clan Nel Toth
Anyway. I agree pharaoh is one of the best answers for the deaths shadow we got. Further more, the difference here is a minor one, but it has a big impact. Loam is the worst dredger, but better spell than thug is. You rarely want to cast thug. Loam, closer to the end of the game, gets casted alot, sometimes you actually hold one so you can turn 6 cast, cast, then conflag for 10.
Other times you dredge loam for lands on turn 2 so you can flash back looting turn 3, even with a thug in the grave.
I can see why he likes it better.
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Faithless Looting
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Cathartic Reunion
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
3 Life from the Loam
3 Conflagrate
1 Scourge Devil
1 Haunted Dead
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Copperline Gorge
3 Stomping Ground
2 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
3 Mountain
2 Dakmor Salvage
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Collective Brutality
2 Darkblast
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Lightning Axe
1 Memory's Journey
2 Thoughtsieze
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
Pretty happy with the performance of the deck, though I would take out the Memory's Journey for an abrupt decay or destructive rev.
Matchups:
Round 1 - Jund
Game 1
Mulled to 6 and kept a 2 lander with a faithless looting on the draw, scryed mom-hug to the top. He fetch-shocks thoughtsiezes and takes faithless, then plays a t2 bob. I turn 2 mom-hug and hit some jellys and amalgams and a conflagrate, and after he takes 2 off bob and terminates and bolts 2 amalgams, I make a land drop, return a ghast and the zombies, and conflagrate him below 10 and kill the bob.
Boarded in lightning axe for goyfs/scooze and collective brutality for angers
Game 2
Kept an alright 7 card hand, he leads with inquisition into bob into goyf, then just burns me out before I can get the engine going
Game 3
Mulled to 6 and kept a gooder with faithless and 2 reunions. Start off strong and get the dredge engine going, but hit only conflagrates and amalgams for a few turns. I just kept dredging until he played a scooze with 2 green open and ate some amalgams. After loaming and killing his scooze, he plays 2 goyfs and I continue to whiff on jellyfish. After bolting me to death, I look and see all 4 narcomoebas in the last 10 cards of the deck!
0-1
Round 2 - Abzan Coco
Game 1
Lost the die roll and we both mull to 6. He starts on breeding pool into heirarch, and I think infect. When i go copperline into looting he lets out an exasperated sigh. T2 he plays more dorks and a tapped godless shrine so, and I realize he's on Abzan. I conflagrate his dorks, make some ghasts, and he never hits his 2nd land before getting dredged out.
Boarded in lightning axe assuming infinite combo, darkblasts for dorks, and memory's journey because I wanted to justify having that card in my board...
Game 2
Kept a sketchy 1 lander on a mull to 6 and just never got there. He shows me the infinite life combo and I scoop and we go to G3
Game 3
Mull to 6 again, this time with plenty of land and gas. He stumbles on land and plays out a noble on t1 and 2 more on t2, and I hit a conflagrate on my turn 3 and blow him out of the water, then get there with ghasts and jellys. He says that he wasn't expected dredge at all, and we had a talk about how hopefully graveyard hate stays away for awhile.
1-1
Round 3 - Bant Eldrazi
Game 1
Lose the die roll, he mulls to 6 and I mull to 5. He starts on fetch into temple garden and plays an ancient stirrings, finding eldrazi temple. I go copperline gorge into looting, and he laughs and says 'really? dredge?'. I draw some lands off the looting, discard some dredgers and get ready to go to eldrazi town. He plays a skyspawner off his temple and temple, which we realized later he couldn't had done, and I make a bunch of dudes on t2. He plays a wastes, sacs his scion and plays a smasher, putting me to 15 while a narcomoeba keeps the skyspawner at bay. Next turn he plays a land, paths an amalgam, swings for 5. Next turn he plays displacer, hits for 5 and passes. Meanwhile I've been growing my jelly/ghast/amalgam army and chipping away with ghasts. I untap, conflagrate him to 10 and blow up his blockers, then swing for lethal.
Boarded in lightning axe and pharaoh, and gnaw to the bone
Game 2
We both mull to 6, he plays a shock tapped and passes. I do dredge things for a couple turns while he plays his eldrazi temple and does nothing. Turns out he kept a 2 lander with explosives and thoughtknots, hoping to hit the 3rd land but never did. I crush him easily and we chat about how much eldrazi and tron are in the room.
2-1
Round 4 - GR Tron
Game 1
Won the die roll, kept a sick hand with neonate, 2 faithless, 2 land, thug and loam. Killed him on t4 with scourge devil before he could do a thing.
Boarded in grudges and thoughtseize.
Game 2
Kept a not terrible hand with a looting and a thoughtsieze in it. He mulls to 6 and starts on grove into grafdiggers cage. I cast looting on t1, find a neonate and a steam vents, and go to work on the bad beatdown plan. T2 he plays another grove, casts a stirrings and finds a chromatic sphere, then plays it and passes. I play the neonate, and thoughtsieze to see what he kept. He shows me karn, ugin, and another sphere. Well, I guess mulling to gravyard hate works. I take the sphere and hope that I can get there before he casts either walker. I slowly beatdown for a few turns as he chains spheres into stars and stirrings, and then finds a firespout and wipes my board. Eventually he gets tron, casts ugin, and I accept defeat.
Game 3
He mulls to 5, and I keep a solid 7 card hand. I do dredge things, he doesn't play a cage turn 1, and I kill him swiftly. We chatted after about his japanese antiquities urza lands and altered foil karns (they had sombreros and maracas!)
3-1
Round 5 - Rug delver with hooting mandrills
Game 1
Mull to 6, kept an okay hand and lost the die roll. He starts with misty and passes. I figure he has spell pierce up and so I opt to play a neonate instead of looting. He fetch-shocks and plays stubborn denial!. Next turn he plays a thoughtscour on himself, fetches for a forest and then plays a hooting mandrills, seems good. I proceed to do dredge things after drawing another looting, and then we race between 2 ghasts and a 4/4 trample. The game ended when he attacked and I brought out haunted dead to block an extra damage of the hooting mandrills so he couldn't snap tarfire me to death, and then kill him on the crackback while sitting at 3 life.
Boarded in lightning axe, memory's journey, pharaoh, and some brutalities since I figured that he had delver of secrets and angers.
Game 2
He mulls to 5 and starts with land delver of secrets. I go for the t1 looting into t2 brutality, discarding his anger of the gods, killing his unflipped delver, and draining some life. That was pretty well the game, and he was a little salty about having to face dredge.
4-1
Round 6 - Mono-white death and taxes
Game 1
This is not a deck I expected. He wins the die roll, we both keep 7, and he leads with ghost quarter into aether vial. I do dredge things, he vials a throbbing inspector and cracks his clue, I do more dredge things, he vials in a leonin arbiter, plays another GQ, and then double strip mines me and paths an amalgam. Holy value batman. I manage to stem the bleeding with dakmor salvage, and stall the board out while he tries to topdeck gas. I start drawing normally, and it takes 3 turns before I hit a land, then conflagrate his board and that was the game.
Boarded - Grudge, collective brutality, explosives, and thoughtsieze.
Game 2
Mulled to 6, he kept his 7. He didn't have the GQ/arbiter combo, but he had a fast beatdown start with thalia, which is surprisingly good against us. I was stuck on 2 lands and couldn't find a loam for a while, but I conflagrate his board and we both just topdeck for a bit. I finally hit a loam, but it's off of a faithless looting so I pass the turn. He topdecks grafdiggers cage, slams it and passes. I start drawing normally, but his beatdown plan is much better so he gets there while I stare at the 2 grudges already in my graveyard...
Game 3
Kept a good 7, knowing he could have Rip. I go neonate on t1, make sure there's no cage, then dredge a stinky. Hit 5 lands, untap draw a looting, then go double looting to try hit amalgams and jellys, but don't. He plays t2 rip, and that was game over. The guy was really nice, and shows me 2 cage, 3 rips, and 2 surgicals that he boarded in xD.
4-2
Round 7 - Eldrazi Tron
Game 1
This is where I realized I was exhausted. I accidentally drew 8 cards while we waited for the round to start, so we call the judge over and he says I can either let my opponent select a card and put it on the bottom of my deck or I can immediately mull to 6. I opt to mull, keep a good 6 and hoped he wasn't on jund. He starts with tower into map, so I'm hopeful. T2 he plays an eldrazi temple and cracks map to find another eldrazi temple, and I quickly realize what the scoop is. He plays a chalice on 1, then dismembers an amalgam and warping wails a bloodghast, but I killed him while at 4 with a scourge devil from 14.
Boarded in grudge, explosives, thoughtsieze, and pharaoh. I think I may have over boarded this game, probably didn't need to put in explosives or pharaoh but after 7 rounds of magic I was ready for a break.
Game 2
He has a good start with t2 thoughtknot, t3 smasher, t4 walking ballista, t5 nulamog. Yea, can't beat that.
Game 3
He mulls to 6 but once again has a good start, set up to have tron on t3. I do dredge things and make some ghasts and amalgams and start to try getting in there. T3 he dismembers an amalgam, plays a chalice on 1 and a smasher, seems good. I dredge into pharaoh and grudge, grudge the chalice and he calls a judge saying it should be countered. We move on, he hits for 5 and plays a pithing needle naming stinkweed imp. I proceed to dredge stinkweed imp and we have another chat with the judge, who is now watching the game. I cast stinkweed imp to try and stop his smasher, then realize that I missed the pharaoh trigger, and play the explosives on 0 and keep up 2 in case he plays a ballista. He topdecks another smasher, and I take 8, go to 4 and kill both of them, and he rereads smasher to understand that I don't need to discard for the pharaoh ability. I put him to 6 with ghasts and a conflagrate, then pass. He topdecks walking ballista, casts it for 4 and I extend the hand. Had I not missed the trigger, I would've won! Always remember your triggers folks.
4-3
Overall I was just happy to be playing modern, and not seeing as much graveyard hate anymore for the most part. I figured I had to win out to make prizing, so I dropped and played legacy side events instead (didn't do so hot there either, but I picked up some tix and helped my friend get a box for profit). Maindeck felt solid, haunted dead and scourge devil typically get sided out but are sick in the main for the surprise kill or blocker. Memory's journey was useless, and I didn't see much to use darkblast for now that infect is no longer at the top tables. All day all around me was delver, eldrazi, tron, and valakut decks. Looking around day 2 I saw lots of eldrazi, death shadow jund, and valakut. I only talked with one other guy playing dredge, not sure if he was the one who top 32d but I saw him playing day 2.
Yeah. It seems like dredge is on a balancing act. Its good, but might not be good enough. I think anything like a scrapheap scrounger that is slightly more pushed will put us back into solid tier 1. We are CLEARLY good enough to put 3 top results with grave hate getting light. So basically affinity, but slightly worse RNG it seems.
When AMONKHET comes out I will be constantly feeling like this:
Pretty close to a top 8, felt relatively unlucky to lose game two in particular where his hand was not great by any stretch. Think dredge is fine, but wouldn't necessarily be looking to play it again in the near future as I'm really ambivalent about the newer versions ability to beat hate if people start actually playing it again. Death's Shadow Jund matchup is also a little sketchy, although the lower TBR count makes it probably passable.
Losses were to Bant in 14, Abzan in 6, and Infect in 9. Any questions ask away, happy to see Dredge put up some #s this weekend!
First off, thanks for coming by. I cant stress enough how much I love seeing people from GPs or Protours dropping in to share some info. Helps everyone and the archtype as a whole. Also, congrats! Thanks for pushing dredge forward!
Now I'll ask a laundry list of questions if its cool. I just wanna make sure I and anyone who reads this can keep pushing dredge to the highest it can go (But not too much, I dont want another ban.)
1. Devil or Haunted dead? The japanese opted for haunted for blocking, stalling, extra repeat bodies, and the discard. Did you feel like Devil pushed in enough damage he was always the better option than haunted? Are there times Haunted's discard and/or chump bodies would have served better? With all that info, which was likely the better card?
2. Im of the opinion right now we are more like legacy dredge than ever. Really soft to sideboard hate, but when its cut, were great. Do you feel that this is the decks future right now?
3. You are running 2 conflag, and 1 in the side. How often was that thing coming into the main? Would it have been better to run it main?
4. Like above, brutality in the main. I'm generally against non grave stuffs in the main, but is it good enough that realistically its got too many uses NOT to run main rather than side? For example, I run lightning axe main when the meta is all creatures, and it just acts as another enabler like neonate or looting. Is the meta currently in that way that the discard/2 life/disfigure is just worth the main inclusion?
5. As far as the darkblast not in the 75, I agree with you, but for everyone else, why exactly is that a point that sticks out for you in the deck?
6. Just for spoilers comin' up, what exactly are you looking for in amonket to make the deck stronger? Go ahead and give us the dream cards on your short list. What would make you pick the deck up again.
7. Looking at the japanese lists, what do you think of them going forward?
Again, Thank you so much for running the archetype, and coming by to talk with us!
I did a little bit of testing with both and generally liked Scourge Devil a little bit more, felt like it shored up some of the big mana matchups a little bit more which I felt like were not as good as they had been in the past. Specifically felt like this helped vs both Tron and RG Shift/Breach decks. Dead is much better versus Infect and Affinity, but Affinity is already a pretty good matchup and Infect is likely still a bad one. Considered Rally the Peasants but found that in testing Rally rarely actually dealt more than Devil as you get the additional 4 power attacker as well. Having one extra way to trigger Amalgam is obviously nice as well.
Yes - graveyard hate is harder to beat, but it also makes a lot less sense to be running a ton of it unlike in Legacy where it is almost a no brainer. So I guess I would say sort of? I think this deck is positioned better going forward in Modern than it is in Legacy.
Felt like two was the number needed to see it in most matchups. Rarely able to cast double effectively in the same game. Third was for stuff like Affinity and Abzan Company where you really need one quickly. In a lot of the other matchups was more often using it as reach to end the game as opposed to killing memnites and mana dorks.
Thought burn would be the aggro deck of choice, and generally feel like Dredge has a slightly shakier fast aggro matchup than you would think, especially versus a lot of reach. I really liked that I could play a maindeck "hate" card, that also could take anger of the gods and sometimes kill ooze. Pretty solid game one performer, although it generally is sided out for a more specific card.
Still don't think I would maindeck it, but I really like having access to more effects. Darkblast is an insane sideboard card because it is really the only card with Dredge that is also interaction. If you are actually killing things with it, it can almost singlehandedly win you a game. That is too powerful not to play.
Oddly enough something that strengthened one of the other archetypes that require a sideboard tax so to speak would probably make me lean more towards playing this as opposed to something actually good for dredge. If Affinity (or another linear deck that we match up decently against) got a nice piece it makes Dredge much stronger, I think. Especially at the GP level.
Look pretty similar to mine but probably better. Not 100% sold on 21st land, but 4th loam seems better than 4th thug if we are sticking on that exact # of dredgers. I still like collective brutality, but can certainly understand why others might not.
NP, any other questions just ask.
I assume you mean the big mana tron decks and not the eldrazi-tron hybrids that are popping up these days. My preference is something like this:
-2 Collective Brutality
-1 Dakmor Salvage
-1 Insolent Neonate
+2 Ancient Grudge
+2 Thoughtseize
Moving away from the 5c manabase to a manabase with 7 fetches improves this matchup quite a bit in game one - you really just have to fade their absolute best draws and set up Bloodghast -> Amalgams on end step.
Post board Tron getting more graveyard hate in addition to the whole Ugin/O-stone thing can be pretty rough. Like pretty much every matchup you have to lean on winning game one and then hoping they mulligan a little too much or simply keep a hand that is good but not hateful.
I'm not 100% on Thoughtseize against Tron, but generally like it against all the big mana decks. Knowing exactly what you are playing around can be a big help in getting there and avoiding catastrophe.
Not sure exactly how everyone else boards, but I cut one Dakmor Salvage in every matchup that isn't primarily about longer games and Bloodghast recursion.
Against Eldrazi-Tron I think you are heaaaaaaavily favored in game one and likely still favored in boarded games.
r3 - cheerios
r4 - ad nauseum
r5 - titanshift
r6 - abzan (first loss)
r7 - eldrazi tron
r8 - uw control
r9 - infect (second loss)
r10 - bushwhacker zoo
r11 - death's shadow jund
r12 - eldrazi tron
r13 - blue moon
r14 - bant eldrazi (third loss)
r15 - jund
I figured burn would be a little more popular than it seemed to be, but I like Gnaw to the Bone quite well against zoo style decks as well. I think with only one you are a little too unlikely to find it in time, it is also even more powerful if you actually draw one as it is mostly unbeatable if you are even sort of functioning.
Darkblast is either a 10 or a 1, which is sort of awkward as a maindeck card, but I think it is foolish not to give yourself the chance to draw one at least in sideboarded games. Against both Infect and Affinity it is an enabler and removal spell wrapped up in one.
To be totally honest, I don't know that my input on dredge is especially effective, it's not like I play it a ton just try to find the best positioned deck for whatever GP I happen to be attending each month or so.
I'm generally looking at cutting a Dakmor Salvage and an Insolent Neonate, then look at Brutality, then look at cutting conf/loam next, then sometimes a narco or bloodghast if either seems especially ineffective. If more than that is coming out I can't help but feel like you are oversideboarding. I really liked thoughtseize as a 3 of, and Nature's Claim was fine at 3 as well. Unsure if it is better than Natural State/Decay in a more defined metagame but didn't want to be 100% cold to Leyline.