You need to race them, but conservatively. Depending on their board they will run 4 relics, 4 angers, 2 cage. Its allota hate. But seize will do work, so will 1 cmc naturalize effects. I'm pretty immune to blood moon thanks to the basic forest, and I think a smart skred play sides moon out against us.
Realistically I like seize here because I can scope their hand. If they didnt keep a grave hate hand, or you snag out their 1 peice of hate, you can turn full burners on to see if you can simply out race them. otherwise you have to do like I did. Pull out 1 ghast, amalgam, get them to anger, repeat, try to get them in a smallish conflag range. conflag.
Extraction snap is already stuff exists in sideboards, and we still lose to good sideboard hate. angers and extraction snap are the same as theyve been. I dont think twins exists changes that. I win combo is a problem for sure, but it ironically fits under the same hate Id board in vs them, thoughtseize and naturalize effects.
Twin actually has problems with rush aggro, so I dont think it would be all that bad. As a deck, we can crush them so long as they dont have the win combo.
For everyone playing Fatal Push, Thoughtseize, Abrupt Decay, etc. what is your black mana looking like? I don't have the 13 black, 13 green, 13 red sources that I want with the fetchland manabase. I'll try this with 21 lands
This is more than enough to support the sideboard Thoughtseizes, Abrupt Decays, and Collective Brutalities that I want, even if I will be taking a bit of damage from fetches and a bit of damage from Mana Confluence. It is really depressing to side in Thoughtseizes against cheerios, ad nauseam, etc. and struggle to find the mana to cast them.
I may even drop 1 fetch for a third basic.
I'll have 25 creatures and be dropping the Shriekhorn/Haunted Dead/Darkblast/Tormenting Voice extra slot for a 21st land.
I'm not liking Lightning Axe as much as I thought I would against Cheerios. I will probably go back down to 1-2 of these and add in Fatal Pushes and Abrupt Decays. I do like Ancient Grudges in games 2 and 3 against Cheerios, to target the Mox Opal in response to Retract.
This is a discussion more for Modern in general than Dredge, but I've tried a few oddball things in my side against Cheerios: Root Maze, Thorn of Amethyst, Chalice of the Void (Faitless Looting with these things is pretty good), Stony Silence (5c manabase). I still just like killing the Sram/Paladin when I can, but it just sucks when I'm playing 4 removal against their 8 enablers and my deck doesn't like to draw cards.
Someone whos better at math than me (I openly admit to not knowing how to do this.) Whats the best land count for a turn 1 black or red or green source? Its some amount of fetches, with some amount of fast lands, right?
Medvedev has posted links from Frank Karsten on channelfireball that shows how many lands counts if you want access to a certain color by turns 1-3. The magic number is 13.*
*more on this - with 13 lands of a particular color, you have a 91% chance of seeing one in your opening 9 cards, not even accounting for mulligans into disruption + land.
Fatal Push is a really good card for Dredge. Scooze, Cheerios, Goblin Electromancer/Baral, Death's Shadow/Infect/Kiln Fiend Bloo - these are all either hateful or create faster kills than we can race. Some of them invalidate sorcery speed removal. Some of them also dodge toughness-based removal (Puresteel Paladin, Scavenging Ooze if it gets enough out of hand). It's way more relevant than Nature's Claim, which I haven't played since the ban. I didn't think about Push until I read PVDDR write that it would be a shot in the arm for Dredge at the same time as the ban, and now I agree with him, at least for 2-4 in the sideboard (none main).
According to Modern nexus, which is a good read, check it out, we are still. Again, barely. But the power of the deck is still clearly there. Our useage is diff down. probably banphobia. Wait until we get another grave tool. I'm sure well be right back on top.
Hey lantern, just wanted to ask a quick question. I'm just now adding thoughtsiezes to my board, as they have become accepted and I totally agree with them, it's the only thing that catches trap and rip and scooze and anything else you need to deal with. But having trouble looking what to cut. I will make edits for my specific meta, but I just want to be sure I have a good starting point. My maindeck is basically yours before you decided to try 19 lands but with a mana confluence over the second mountain
So I know I can cut a bog, and swap the claims for states. But not sure what else to let go of, as well as whether 2 sieze or 3 is correct.(Again, first looking at this for an overall meta, then will edit for local meta after. Basically, what would your side be if you were to go to a GP or something of the sorts)
I think your best bet is a claim, a brutality and a bog in that order. Grave decks have gone dow. I useage (us) sucide zoo isnt all in anymore and infect has died down too so bruality is less useful. Claim does the same thing seize does, counter hate
Thanks! A friend also had a suggestion: cutting the grudge. Our affinity matchup is spectacular anyway, and lantern has mostly died (tho we probably weren't beating them with just a single grudge anyway). The other artifacts that we care about usually pop themselves (Relic, EE, Ostone) anyway, so why is it still needed here?
So I'm thinking of something like this. I'd cut a brutality for a seize if not for the uptick in burn and the fact that I don't actually know how many seizes we want for them to be effective (So how many is that?)
Do you think that Vengeful Pharaoh is still vaiable? Without Temur Battle Rage decks in metagame I don't think there are any math ups I would want it in sideboard. Maybe against Bant Eldrazi or BGx but match ups are already favorable so we should focus on improving bad match ups. What's your opinion?
Realistically I like seize here because I can scope their hand. If they didnt keep a grave hate hand, or you snag out their 1 peice of hate, you can turn full burners on to see if you can simply out race them. otherwise you have to do like I did. Pull out 1 ghast, amalgam, get them to anger, repeat, try to get them in a smallish conflag range. conflag.
Twin actually has problems with rush aggro, so I dont think it would be all that bad. As a deck, we can crush them so long as they dont have the win combo.
2 Dakmor Salvage
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Blood Crypt
2 Stomping Ground
2 Mountain
1 Steam Vents
2 Mana Confluence
2 Copperline Gorge
Red-19
Green - 14
Black - 14
This is more than enough to support the sideboard Thoughtseizes, Abrupt Decays, and Collective Brutalities that I want, even if I will be taking a bit of damage from fetches and a bit of damage from Mana Confluence. It is really depressing to side in Thoughtseizes against cheerios, ad nauseam, etc. and struggle to find the mana to cast them.
I may even drop 1 fetch for a third basic.
I'll have 25 creatures and be dropping the Shriekhorn/Haunted Dead/Darkblast/Tormenting Voice extra slot for a 21st land.
I'm not liking Lightning Axe as much as I thought I would against Cheerios. I will probably go back down to 1-2 of these and add in Fatal Pushes and Abrupt Decays. I do like Ancient Grudges in games 2 and 3 against Cheerios, to target the Mox Opal in response to Retract.
This is a discussion more for Modern in general than Dredge, but I've tried a few oddball things in my side against Cheerios: Root Maze, Thorn of Amethyst, Chalice of the Void (Faitless Looting with these things is pretty good), Stony Silence (5c manabase). I still just like killing the Sram/Paladin when I can, but it just sucks when I'm playing 4 removal against their 8 enablers and my deck doesn't like to draw cards.
*more on this - with 13 lands of a particular color, you have a 91% chance of seeing one in your opening 9 cards, not even accounting for mulligans into disruption + land.
Fatal Push is a really good card for Dredge. Scooze, Cheerios, Goblin Electromancer/Baral, Death's Shadow/Infect/Kiln Fiend Bloo - these are all either hateful or create faster kills than we can race. Some of them invalidate sorcery speed removal. Some of them also dodge toughness-based removal (Puresteel Paladin, Scavenging Ooze if it gets enough out of hand). It's way more relevant than Nature's Claim, which I haven't played since the ban. I didn't think about Push until I read PVDDR write that it would be a shot in the arm for Dredge at the same time as the ban, and now I agree with him, at least for 2-4 in the sideboard (none main).
Modern:
Dredge | Restore Balance | Titanshift
My [360][Unpowered][Modern-Frame] Cube
I have to say im surprised. Ppl I know stopped playing the deck - is this actually a true reflection of the decks popularity right now?
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
1x Ancient Grudge
2x Bojuka Bog
3x Collective Brutality
1x Darkblast
1x Gnaw to the Bone
2x Lightning Axe
4x Nature's Claim
1x Vengeful Pharaoh
So I know I can cut a bog, and swap the claims for states. But not sure what else to let go of, as well as whether 2 sieze or 3 is correct.(Again, first looking at this for an overall meta, then will edit for local meta after. Basically, what would your side be if you were to go to a GP or something of the sorts)
Thanks
GB Graveyard(Rip Copter)Modern:
Dredge RBGU (AND WE BACK)
Suicide BlooUR(WotC Why )Living End RBG
Bloo MoonUR
Legacy:
Aluren BGU
1x Bojuka Bog
3x Collective Brutality
1x Darkblast
1x Gnaw to the Bone
2x Lightning Axe
4x Natural State
2x Thoughtseize
1x Vengeful Pharaoh
So I'm thinking of something like this. I'd cut a brutality for a seize if not for the uptick in burn and the fact that I don't actually know how many seizes we want for them to be effective (So how many is that?)
GB Graveyard(Rip Copter)Modern:
Dredge RBGU (AND WE BACK)
Suicide BlooUR(WotC Why )Living End RBG
Bloo MoonUR
Legacy:
Aluren BGU
That being said, lightning axe, abrupt decay, and, yes, fatal push are good against those decks.
GB Graveyard(Rip Copter)Modern:
Dredge RBGU (AND WE BACK)
Suicide BlooUR(WotC Why )Living End RBG
Bloo MoonUR
Legacy:
Aluren BGU
2x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Copperline Gorge
2x Dakmor Salvage
1x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Steam Vents
2x Stomping Ground
3x Wooded Foothills
Instant (1)
1x Darkblast
4x Bloodghast
4x Golgari Thug
4x Insolent Neonate
4x Narcomoeba
4x Prized Amalgam
1x Scourge Devil
4x Stinkweed Imp
Sorcery (14)
4x Cathartic Reunion
3x Conflagrate
4x Faithless Looting
3x Life from the Loam
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Collective Brutality
1x Darkblast
1x Ghost Quarter
2x Gnaw to the Bone
2x Lightning Axe
2x Nature's Claim
2-0 vs Jund
1-2 vs Bant Eldrazi
2-1 vs Grixis Control
1-2 vs RG Tron
1-2 vs RW Prison
2-0 vs Elves
2-1 vs RG Aggro
2-1 vs RG Tron
2-0 vs Kiki-Chord
Can post a more detailed tournament report once day 2 is finished if anyone is interested
Dredge (117-70 W/L in games) (Pre-GGT ban: 103-70 W/L in games)