Right, but alot of the times when you run that land count you are forced to loam on turn 2 in order to hit the 3rd land on turn 3 (or loam on turn 3, but that deprives you from looting on turn 3.) Do you still hit your land drops? Yes, are you basically shooting yourself in the foot to do so tempo wise? Totally. I'm not saying it doesnt work, but realistically, I dont mind giving up 2 land slots to let me do better turn 2/3 plays if its worth more powerwise than having those two slots.
Especially one one land hands, which spells doom for the deck.
I play regularly in my local game store, from 3 tournaments I made 3-1, 3-0-1 and 3-0-1. I fell like I'm cheating, with Catharic Reunion deck is much more consistent and waaaay more powerful. Prepare for a lot of grave hate in next 2-3 months
Whats everyones thoughts on thoughseize, natures claim, collective brutality, and enginered explosives? Tryin to pin down the board
right now im playing a list very similar to yours (21 lands, 3 conflag, 3 loam, 1 haunted dead) with this side
2 darkblast
3 ancient grudge
2 gnaw to the bone
2 collective brutality
2 ancient grudge
4 leyline of the void (maybe 3 journey 1 bojuka bog its better?)
darkblast, grudge and gnaw are the usual suspects
brutality its great against burn/infect and grudge against affinity, so the bad pairings are covered
brutality and decay also work against common hate like rest in peace, ooze, anger, etc and are well rounded answers against other combos like nauseam or shadow zoo etc. they are not the top of the list cards against all those pairings, but they are more scared of us than we are of them
4 leyline of the void (maybe 3 journey 1 bojuka bog its better?)
The point of not running leyline is because it requires 4 sideboard slots to be effective, if you're willing to commit 4 sideboard slots for grave hate, there is no better option than leyline.
Whats everyones thoughts on thoughseize, natures claim, collective brutality, and enginered explosives? Tryin to pin down the board
Nature's Claim is the bee's knees. Hits everything we hate other than creatures and makes our affinity game super good. Thoughtsieze is the ideal option for the hand disruption slot, even though I'm running Duress instead. Best thing to side in a blind matchup. Collective Brutality is a good card that gets so much value, but sometimes I only get 2/3 of the options and at turn 2, I'd rather hug mom. Engineered Explosives is also a great option vs tribal decks, but when it comes to fighting hate, I'd rather stick to Decay.
Collective brutality doesnt hit rip, One of the reasons im debating it for more stuff like natures claim (though the 4 life annoys the aggro in me. Id run fragmitize if I ever use full rainbow lands. I know people hate it for being sorcery speed, but most things Id kill with it would be sorcery speed anyways, honestly. I tested it in zoo and its seriously good.)
Overall I think brutality does a good job doing what explosives can do... like I dont ever side explosives in as anti grave hate, i side it in to be anti aggro with the option to hit grave. Brutality sorta does the same thing, just if it hit rip id be all for it.
Im pretty damn weak to rip. Without decay its just over. So id like to have some more hate... maybe cutting the 3rd grudge. I really only use grudge against affinity and 2 is probably enough between mom hug getting me 2 grudge, 2 conflag, 1 darkblast (read, a million darkblasts), and 2 axes... i just really like winning against affinity and natures claim is alot worse then grudge there but makes me less soft to alot else.
If someone is willing to use layline im good with losing that round. I dont care to prep for that auto lose once in every like...30 games.
Oh and RAVANOUS TRAP. Holy crap that card is insane vs us. Hugging mom and getting eaten by that thing was so sad.
My sideboard is:
2x thoughtseize
1x Vengeful Pharaoh
1x Collective Brutality
2x engineered explosives
2x nature's claim
1x ancient grudge
2x bojuka bog
1x raven's crime
3x flex spots, usually 2x lightning axe and 1 more brutality
I really don't think the 4 life is a huge drawback to nature's claim. If we're using it to get rid of an RIP then it's only marginally worse than abrupt decay (although cheaper). I don't like auto-losing to leyline, as there are 2 folks at my lgs who play a playset of leylines to deal with GY decks.
Nature's Claim also hits Platinum Emperion. Not super relevant at the moment but the madcap combo just needs a solid shell to become a decent deck which we would definitely have trouble with.
Nature's Claim works well with Mom hug too. They turn 2 RIP, you respond with turn 3 claim into mom hug and you're back in business.
Biggest personal choice in there is raven's crime. It's there for combo decks and I'm open to replacing it.
Ive been using 2 mystic retrieval,they work good with SB to play the cards getting sided in so I'm not stuck trying to get my hate in my opening hand.This way I can continue dredging normally and dredge decay and the like without worry.
I'm playing the bridge version but sadly I'm a few ghasts short of the full deck,they are the last ones I need.
Just my two cents.Love the deck.
Ive been using 2 mystic retrieval,they work good with SB to play the cards getting sided in so I'm not stuck trying to get my hate in my opening hand.This way I can continue dredging normally and dredge decay and the like without worry.
But unless you draw Mystic Retrieval, you can't cast it from the grave against the main hates: Turn 0 Leyline, RiP and Cage. (If you can cast spells from the grave, it means that the hate is not being effective anyway).
Living End is easy. Just follow the normal gameplan and dredge away. When they cast living end, they get their *****ty cycle creatures and you get a squad of grave trolls and stinkweed imps. Try to keep some ghasts and stuff in the gy too, ignore the may triggers on landfall. What I usually do is try to get like 4-6 power on the board to clock them, and then ignore all of the may triggers on narcomoeba and blooghasts, keeping my amalgams
If we are super worried about enchantments, then why not try and play ray of revelation as well? It hoses worship fairly easily, and doesn't take up much space.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern UWUW ControlUW UGWSpiritsUGW GHardened ScalesG WGRUKiki PodWGRU [RIP]
I'm going to a couple 2k's in a couple weekends and I'm going to try Destructive Revelry in the side. In the past I was constantly siding in Nature's Claim and if my opponents didn't see any hate cards Nature's Claim seemed to rot in my hand while we raced each other, and the 4 points always seemed to be relevant. At least with Destructive Revelry you use it to turn a 2 turn race into a 1 turn race or potentially finish them off.
Also Destructive Revelry is pretty good against Worship.
I tested out affinity with only 2 grudges in the side, and I had no issues. Between conglag, lightning axe, decay, explosives, gnaw, darkblast, and grudge I might have lost 2% of my game 2/3 winrate... which drops like a 75% my favor to 73... totally ok.
It opened up enough room that I added and switched a few card numbers I have can side 5 cards in to pretty much every matchup... which is where I wanted to be. So my main is the same and I use this board:
I'm still right now on journey because Id rather have fast grave interaction than slow better one. In my testing, a turn 3 bog (at best) is not super great at the graveyard dependent decks like the mirror. To be real, most of the time it involves dredging bog AND loam, then loaming bog, and using it as the land drop. It's too many dependent variables for me to want to use it against dredge or goryo's decks, even storm. Its better as utlity against long games against stuff like mel pod or like... UW control. Both of which I'm less worried about than the grave decks (remember, we are tier 1, gotta meta against ourselves too.
I'm on natural state because I run into more affinity than bant eldrazi. truthfully the 1 of worship (60% useage, of a 5% meta game) isnt something I'm willing to warp the side board around. If Dredge, pretty much the only deck running leyline, uses it, or mills for it, I'll take it. Journey is the better side for me. Natural state will get the nod.
Right now I still have 5 cards to side in that feel either super powerful, with maybe 1-2 pretty good cards. Id rather be at that, since Im the threat deck, not the answer one.
Im usually siding out on curve, so I side out mom hugs, at least 2 when brutality comes in. Im not racing those decks anyways, ill get turned 3 by infect.
Keeping in mind that in general we want to side on curve, what do you guys usually take out? I find myself skimming rather than cutting playsets, like 1 ghast, 1 haunted dead, 1 conflag, 1 loam for 4 cards from board.
I usually go for basically the weakest of each type of card we have. Ghast as weakest payoff, conflag as weakest enabler, loam/blast as weakest dredgers, etc.
In terms of power rankings, here's how I see things (ranked in order):
Dredge:
Grave Troll
Stinkweed Imp
Loam/Darkblast
Dakmor (which only comes out for Bogs)
Flex:
Rally the Peasants
Haunted Dead
And so when boarding I go for the ones lowest on their individual lists that best match function and cost of the sideboard cards. Like Haunted Dead goes out for Brutality since both cost 1B and put 2 cards from hand in GY, etc.
Skimming is correct, but not in terms of power. Because power changes on the matchup. Bloodghast is terrible against burn. Its amazing against nahiri control. I cut mom hug when I'm against a deck I have to race, like combo or control. against a deck where I know the game will go long like against midrange or something I cut Neonate. Its not about power overall, its about what the matchup requires. I mean, I do have a short list of what I cut. Neonate, momhug, ghast, narc, darkblast, rally, haunted dead.
Especially one one land hands, which spells doom for the deck.
right now im playing a list very similar to yours (21 lands, 3 conflag, 3 loam, 1 haunted dead) with this side
2 darkblast
3 ancient grudge
2 gnaw to the bone
2 collective brutality
2 ancient grudge
4 leyline of the void (maybe 3 journey 1 bojuka bog its better?)
darkblast, grudge and gnaw are the usual suspects
brutality its great against burn/infect and grudge against affinity, so the bad pairings are covered
brutality and decay also work against common hate like rest in peace, ooze, anger, etc and are well rounded answers against other combos like nauseam or shadow zoo etc. they are not the top of the list cards against all those pairings, but they are more scared of us than we are of them
Nature's Claim is the bee's knees. Hits everything we hate other than creatures and makes our affinity game super good. Thoughtsieze is the ideal option for the hand disruption slot, even though I'm running Duress instead. Best thing to side in a blind matchup. Collective Brutality is a good card that gets so much value, but sometimes I only get 2/3 of the options and at turn 2, I'd rather hug mom. Engineered Explosives is also a great option vs tribal decks, but when it comes to fighting hate, I'd rather stick to Decay.
Overall I think brutality does a good job doing what explosives can do... like I dont ever side explosives in as anti grave hate, i side it in to be anti aggro with the option to hit grave. Brutality sorta does the same thing, just if it hit rip id be all for it.
Im pretty damn weak to rip. Without decay its just over. So id like to have some more hate... maybe cutting the 3rd grudge. I really only use grudge against affinity and 2 is probably enough between mom hug getting me 2 grudge, 2 conflag, 1 darkblast (read, a million darkblasts), and 2 axes... i just really like winning against affinity and natures claim is alot worse then grudge there but makes me less soft to alot else.
If someone is willing to use layline im good with losing that round. I dont care to prep for that auto lose once in every like...30 games.
Oh and RAVANOUS TRAP. Holy crap that card is insane vs us. Hugging mom and getting eaten by that thing was so sad.
2x thoughtseize
1x Vengeful Pharaoh
1x Collective Brutality
2x engineered explosives
2x nature's claim
1x ancient grudge
2x bojuka bog
1x raven's crime
3x flex spots, usually 2x lightning axe and 1 more brutality
I really don't think the 4 life is a huge drawback to nature's claim. If we're using it to get rid of an RIP then it's only marginally worse than abrupt decay (although cheaper). I don't like auto-losing to leyline, as there are 2 folks at my lgs who play a playset of leylines to deal with GY decks.
Nature's Claim also hits Platinum Emperion. Not super relevant at the moment but the madcap combo just needs a solid shell to become a decent deck which we would definitely have trouble with.
Nature's Claim works well with Mom hug too. They turn 2 RIP, you respond with turn 3 claim into mom hug and you're back in business.
Biggest personal choice in there is raven's crime. It's there for combo decks and I'm open to replacing it.
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
I'm playing the bridge version but sadly I'm a few ghasts short of the full deck,they are the last ones I need.
Just my two cents.Love the deck.
Dredge (117-70 W/L in games) (Pre-GGT ban: 103-70 W/L in games)
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
UWUW ControlUW
UGWSpiritsUGW
GHardened ScalesG
WGRUKiki PodWGRU [RIP]
I'm going to a couple 2k's in a couple weekends and I'm going to try Destructive Revelry in the side. In the past I was constantly siding in Nature's Claim and if my opponents didn't see any hate cards Nature's Claim seemed to rot in my hand while we raced each other, and the 4 points always seemed to be relevant. At least with Destructive Revelry you use it to turn a 2 turn race into a 1 turn race or potentially finish them off.
Also Destructive Revelry is pretty good against Worship.
It opened up enough room that I added and switched a few card numbers I have can side 5 cards in to pretty much every matchup... which is where I wanted to be. So my main is the same and I use this board:
2 Lightning Axe
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Memory's Journey
1 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gnaw to the Bone
1 Natural State
I'm still right now on journey because Id rather have fast grave interaction than slow better one. In my testing, a turn 3 bog (at best) is not super great at the graveyard dependent decks like the mirror. To be real, most of the time it involves dredging bog AND loam, then loaming bog, and using it as the land drop. It's too many dependent variables for me to want to use it against dredge or goryo's decks, even storm. Its better as utlity against long games against stuff like mel pod or like... UW control. Both of which I'm less worried about than the grave decks (remember, we are tier 1, gotta meta against ourselves too.
I'm on natural state because I run into more affinity than bant eldrazi. truthfully the 1 of worship (60% useage, of a 5% meta game) isnt something I'm willing to warp the side board around. If Dredge, pretty much the only deck running leyline, uses it, or mills for it, I'll take it. Journey is the better side for me. Natural state will get the nod.
Right now I still have 5 cards to side in that feel either super powerful, with maybe 1-2 pretty good cards. Id rather be at that, since Im the threat deck, not the answer one.
I usually go for basically the weakest of each type of card we have. Ghast as weakest payoff, conflag as weakest enabler, loam/blast as weakest dredgers, etc.
In terms of power rankings, here's how I see things (ranked in order):
Payoff:
Amalgam
Narcomoeba
Bloodghast
Enabler:
Faithless Looting
Mom Hug
Neonate
Conflag
Dredge:
Grave Troll
Stinkweed Imp
Loam/Darkblast
Dakmor (which only comes out for Bogs)
Flex:
Rally the Peasants
Haunted Dead
And so when boarding I go for the ones lowest on their individual lists that best match function and cost of the sideboard cards. Like Haunted Dead goes out for Brutality since both cost 1B and put 2 cards from hand in GY, etc.
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes