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I think careful consideration is only good if you have enough graveyard synergy, which this deck doesn't really have. Glimmer is probably better for most decks, but IMO, 4 cmc spells are not idea. The difference between 2-3 cmc, or something like rev (many cmc) vs 4 is big, given how much competition we have in our 4 drop slot.
If you really want to play a 4 cmc draw spell that isn't a walker, gifts is significantly stronger than any other option. It does come with some modest deckbuilding constraints (play 1 o-ring, 1 dsphere instead of 2 dsphere for example) but the ability to guarantee a hit and also put cards to flash back in the bin is solid. Gifts being instant speed also enables some really good lines of play late game.
However, I am fairly sure you'd be better off playing esper reanimator as the gifts package of 1 unburial rites and 2 game-winning fatties is pretty solid. Gifts lends itself really well to playing both wincon and card advantage engine.
If you really want to play a 4 cmc draw spell that isn't a walker, gifts is significantly stronger than any other option. It does come with some modest deckbuilding constraints (play 1 o-ring, 1 dsphere instead of 2 dsphere for example) but the ability to guarantee a hit and also put cards to flash back in the bin is solid. Gifts being instant speed also enables some really good lines of play late game.
However, I am fairly sure you'd be better off playing esper reanimator as the gifts package of 1 unburial rites and 2 game-winning fatties is pretty solid. Gifts lends itself really well to playing both wincon and card advantage engine.
I don't think UW is in the market for too many 4cmc draw spells, as Cody_X mentioned, the 4 drop slot is pretty contested. What UW is in the market for is good card advantage options. Sphinx Rev has traditionally filled that role, but it comes with its own set of problems (sucks early, doesn't play well with Tec edge/GQ). To combat that some people have been exploring other options, one of which has been a pair of Glimmer of Genius. There have been a few successful lists running a pair of Glimmer, but, to me at least, Glimmer seems very mediocre. That's where I think Gifts might fit.
I did mention that Gifts requires a few deckbuilding concessions, but if you're only playing 1 copy of gifts I don't think many concessions need be made. I mentioned switching to include at least 1 of each of the LD lands (which doesn't effect the deck much imo, they're all pretty good) as well as 1 of each of the 4cmc wraths (which is the real concession, because verdict is a fair bit better than the others). Other than that, I don't think any concessions make much sense, though I'm open to suggestion and of course I could be missing something. As for switching a sphere for an Oblivion Ring , that doesn't seem right unless you're running a 3rd variant since we have no way to recur enchantments from the graveyard and if we really need that effect, they will just bin both sphere and o-ring. Maybe I'm missing something but sphere is enough stronger than oring that I don't want to make that concession when I don't have a 3rd variant, and I don't think UW wants a 3rd sphere effect generally because it's kind of clunky.
I also think Sphinx Rev is too good to cut after playing with and without it, sometimes it's the 1 card I want to see the most. I am also considering the 2 Tec Edge, 1 Ghost Quarter, 1 Field of Ruin split, but I have yet to test field at all. I put a Shadow of Doubt back in the mainboard and Crucible in sideboard again, because I really like having those options, but they aren't good in every match. I haven't used Think Twice or Supreme Will for awhile, I would rather have a TT, but don't really have anything I want to cut. Using 2 Jaces has been great, running into a lot of tokens and I never realized how good he can be against affinity too. After a verdict if they still have some ink/blinkmoths it more or less shuts them down. Plus he draws cards.
edit: yeah taking turns is completely unwinnable I think and I just played it for my first match in a comp league I think maybe you can win if you get a turn 3 geist, but even then I dunno. Geist isn't even in my sideboard anymore though.
@Slowgod - I thought the taking turns match was tough too, I talked to a turns player and he told me that UW is about even matchup in his eyes. He said they can't beat Counterspells heavy variants. Basically you just can't let them have any Howling Mine effects, keep them off howling mine and they will eventually run out of gas. Keep in mind that the blue howling mine effect has flash.
Interesting 5-0 today that leans a lot more on Sphinx's Revelation. He cut all the situational 2 mana counters to load up on more on Wall of Omens and Snapcaster and a single Blessed Alliance and leans a lot on Sphinx's Revelation to gas him back up after playing defense in the early game.
Oh, wow. Just noticed that those are 2 Ally of Zendikar and not Of the Trials.
Seems like an auto-loss to storm, possibly even titanshift as well.
IMO, cutting a wall, the dispel, maybe the clique, for a couple mana leaks/negates/logic knots feels like an improvement to me.
Interesting list, very different from anything I've tried out. Even the sideboard approach is very different. 3 Stony Silence and a Disenchant seems excessive but I guess without Trials the lantern matchup must be abysmal. I've played a lot with Ally, and I can't see why anyone would choose it over trials, let alone without Trials. I don't think I would ever consider Ally over Elspeth, Knight errant without trials. Especially with so many flash creatures. Being able to flash then +3+3 seems like a great way to deal with walkers, especially in a deck with no leaks and only 1 sphere.
2 Irrigated farmland is interesting as well, I'm almost always happy to see my 1-of. Never seem to have too much issue finding a spot to play a tapland, and cycling it has always been fantastic. Added benefit of making Glacial Fortress enter untapped as well. I might give 2 Farmland a whirl at some point.
I like the 4 opt, but 2 sphinx rev and 2 AOZ without any GoTT is really weird, although I can't really talk because I couldn't win a match yesterday. I was doing pretty well with 4 opts a couple days ago, then yesterday I switched back to a more Benny list with 4 SV and lost like 8/10 matches. Nothing but combo, I got turn 3'd by Elves, Vizier company, Knightfall Retreat which I forgot existed, storm a bunch of times... pretty awful day. I had this crazy idea of switching all the verdicts to the sideboard and mainboarding spell quellers and the 1 geist and clique, because at least recently verdict has been too little too late half the time for me.
I like the 4 opt, but 2 sphinx rev and 2 AOZ without any GoTT is really weird, although I can't really talk because I couldn't win a match yesterday. I was doing pretty well with 4 opts a couple days ago, then yesterday I switched back to a more Benny list with 4 SV and lost like 8/10 matches. Nothing but combo, I got turn 3'd by Elves, Vizier company, Knightfall Retreat which I forgot existed, storm a bunch of times... pretty awful day. I had this crazy idea of switching all the verdicts to the sideboard and mainboarding spell quellers and the 1 geist and clique, because at least recently verdict has been too little too late half the time for me.
Depending on the meta, it could be right to move off a verdict and something else and run a pair of Oust. Buys enough time to get to the midgame assuming you don't miss any land drops.
Have you guys played verus the RG Ponza deck? I have played vs it some times and I got totally crashed..like I haven't been crashed from either Ad Nauseam or Storm. I have even got Boiled after having Supreme Verdicted a Thrun, The last Troll with no open mana
Any sideboard and/or general tips for this matchup? Any card that we could possibly add to the sideboard?
One of my friend does play RG ponza and i always bring crucible of worlds against him and alot of counter spell. It help me alot but it a bit slow
Haha that image made me laugh, poor tec edge I'm about to give Field a try, the more I think about it I think I will really like it. Being able to fetch a basic to replace it seems amazing and most decks will run out of basics before us. Not sure if I should just go all in with 4 or some kind of split...
Better than GQ at everything other than being able to cut basics if you run crucible.
It's a little worse than Tec Edge in conjunction with Mana Leak, but much better in every other regard including how well it plays with Cryptic Command, Supreme Verdict and Sphinx's Rev. As well as being able to strip Tron lands earlier.
A I've said, I think the only time you should be playing either GQ or Tec now is if you're running crucible main or relying on it as a sideboard strategy.
Better than GQ at everything other than being able to cut basics if you run crucible.
It's a little worse than Tec Edge in conjunction with Mana Leak, but much better in every other regard including how well it plays with Cryptic Command, Supreme Verdict and Sphinx's Rev. As well as being able to strip Tron lands earlier.
A I've said, I think the only time you should be playing either GQ or Tec now is if you're running crucible main or relying on it as a sideboard strategy.
Tec Edge is nice to color screw people in conjunction with Spreading Seas. It's much harder to do that with Field. I wouldn't cut all the edges, imho.
Tec Edge is nice to color screw people in conjunction with Spreading Seas. It's much harder to do that with Field. I wouldn't cut all the edges, imho.
It's not significantly harder to colourscrew imo, just different. Normally when you have edge in your deck you target the dual lands with your Spreading Seas, with Ruin in your deck you target the basics. In my experience, around 150 games with Ruin now, I can cut off a third colour about as routinely as ever.
I just went with a 3-1 Field / Tec Edge split (mainly because I only had enough saved credit for 3) and had my first 5-0 in awhile. Played against Jeskai Queller, E-Tron twice, Mardu Burn, Titanshift, and only lost 1 game against Jeskai Queller. Field was super great against Tron and I top decked one when I really needed it vs Valakut, it actually worked great against burn too cutting him off white and black. One game vs tron I played turn 3 crucible, started recurring a Field and soon I had a Jace, Elspeth and Gideon on the board and he had nothing.
Here's my current decklist which I'm pretty happy with... Gideon AOZ has been a game winner recently for me, I'm not cutting him again. He single handedly won my last 2 burn matches, playing him on a board with Eidolon is stupid good.
The Gifts Ungiven has been outstanding! There was a couple times when I probably would have closed out the game faster if Gifts was Sphinx's Rev, but there were more times that I just cast it around turn 5 and it was way better than rev in those instances. Certainly better than Glimmer of genius - Whenever you're behind it's "Draw 2 answer cards" and whenever you're ahead it's "draw 2 threats".
Interestingly, about half of my match losses were to Abzan midrange (lilly goyf bob). Having them able to Maelstrom and Abrupt decay most of my threats and my Dspheres hurt pretty bad and I missed Rev a lot in that match. When I was on a stock list that match felt so easy.
Going forward I may include an Elspeth, suns champ in the board to help with the GB midrange and I've been thinking of including a copy of Muddle the Mixture somewhere as an effective extra Search or Snap, and to make Gifts piles a little more interesting. I also wouldn't mind trying out a second gifts!
Hey Nekat, the maindeck looks pretty good overall, the seachrome coast looks a little out of place, but other than that I don't think your issues are coming from your main deck configuration.
Your sideboard strategy definitely needs some reevaluation for the GDS matchup though! You shouldn't be cutting spreading seas against a 3 colour deck that runs so few basics, it is very easy to cut them off red completely and sometimes black too. What you should be taking out is Mana Leak. They have so many spells that cost 1 mana that even if you do get to leak something, youre still down mana the exchange. You also shouldn't be bringing in Timely and Blessed Alliance probably isn't where you want to be either, though it isn't too bad. The wrath of god should be supreme verdict #4, the uncounterable clause is so important and you shouldn't have too many issues with regeneration. Thrun can be hit by blessed, or shrunk by jace and blanked by Colonnade. You also definitely want to be bringing in that Condemn, making them gain life is great and hitting 1 Shadow hits them all!
IMO, not a huge fan of your sideboarding, which is likely the major problem.
In general, jace, architect of thought, wall of omens, and countermagic are usually your worst cards.
In your board, blessed alliance, celestial purge, condemn, dispel, rest in peace, and wrath should come in.
Something like
+1 BA
+1 celestial purge
+1 condemn
+1 dispel
+2 rest in peace
+1 wrath
Its possible you may prefer some cryptics to mana leaks, hard to say. I play logic knot, which has fewer problems in this matchup, barring the occasional awkwardness with rest in peace. Cryptic being a hard counter is nice, but costing 4 is just so much.
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I think careful consideration is only good if you have enough graveyard synergy, which this deck doesn't really have. Glimmer is probably better for most decks, but IMO, 4 cmc spells are not idea. The difference between 2-3 cmc, or something like rev (many cmc) vs 4 is big, given how much competition we have in our 4 drop slot.
However, I am fairly sure you'd be better off playing esper reanimator as the gifts package of 1 unburial rites and 2 game-winning fatties is pretty solid. Gifts lends itself really well to playing both wincon and card advantage engine.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I don't think UW is in the market for too many 4cmc draw spells, as Cody_X mentioned, the 4 drop slot is pretty contested. What UW is in the market for is good card advantage options. Sphinx Rev has traditionally filled that role, but it comes with its own set of problems (sucks early, doesn't play well with Tec edge/GQ). To combat that some people have been exploring other options, one of which has been a pair of Glimmer of Genius. There have been a few successful lists running a pair of Glimmer, but, to me at least, Glimmer seems very mediocre. That's where I think Gifts might fit.
I did mention that Gifts requires a few deckbuilding concessions, but if you're only playing 1 copy of gifts I don't think many concessions need be made. I mentioned switching to include at least 1 of each of the LD lands (which doesn't effect the deck much imo, they're all pretty good) as well as 1 of each of the 4cmc wraths (which is the real concession, because verdict is a fair bit better than the others). Other than that, I don't think any concessions make much sense, though I'm open to suggestion and of course I could be missing something. As for switching a sphere for an Oblivion Ring , that doesn't seem right unless you're running a 3rd variant since we have no way to recur enchantments from the graveyard and if we really need that effect, they will just bin both sphere and o-ring. Maybe I'm missing something but sphere is enough stronger than oring that I don't want to make that concession when I don't have a 3rd variant, and I don't think UW wants a 3rd sphere effect generally because it's kind of clunky.
edit: yeah taking turns is completely unwinnable I think and I just played it for my first match in a comp league I think maybe you can win if you get a turn 3 geist, but even then I dunno. Geist isn't even in my sideboard anymore though.
Oh, wow. Just noticed that those are 2 Ally of Zendikar and not Of the Trials.
1 Gideon Jura
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Wall of Omens
3 Supreme Verdict
1 Blessed Alliance
3 Cryptic Command
1 Dispel
4 Opt
4 Path to Exile
2 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Spreading Seas
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
3 Glacial Fortress
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Irrigated Farmland
5 Island
1 Mystic Gate
2 Plains
3 Tectonic Edge
60 Cards
1 Celestial Purge
3 Disdainful Stroke
1 Disenchant
2 Negate
3 Stony Silence
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Timely Reinforcements
IMO, cutting a wall, the dispel, maybe the clique, for a couple mana leaks/negates/logic knots feels like an improvement to me.
2 Irrigated farmland is interesting as well, I'm almost always happy to see my 1-of. Never seem to have too much issue finding a spot to play a tapland, and cycling it has always been fantastic. Added benefit of making Glacial Fortress enter untapped as well. I might give 2 Farmland a whirl at some point.
Depending on the meta, it could be right to move off a verdict and something else and run a pair of Oust. Buys enough time to get to the midgame assuming you don't miss any land drops.
One of my friend does play RG ponza and i always bring crucible of worlds against him and alot of counter spell. It help me alot but it a bit slow
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Better than GQ at everything other than being able to cut basics if you run crucible.
It's a little worse than Tec Edge in conjunction with Mana Leak, but much better in every other regard including how well it plays with Cryptic Command, Supreme Verdict and Sphinx's Rev. As well as being able to strip Tron lands earlier.
A I've said, I think the only time you should be playing either GQ or Tec now is if you're running crucible main or relying on it as a sideboard strategy.
Tec Edge is nice to color screw people in conjunction with Spreading Seas. It's much harder to do that with Field. I wouldn't cut all the edges, imho.
It's not significantly harder to colourscrew imo, just different. Normally when you have edge in your deck you target the dual lands with your Spreading Seas, with Ruin in your deck you target the basics. In my experience, around 150 games with Ruin now, I can cut off a third colour about as routinely as ever.
Here's my current decklist which I'm pretty happy with... Gideon AOZ has been a game winner recently for me, I'm not cutting him again. He single handedly won my last 2 burn matches, playing him on a board with Eidolon is stupid good.
4x Celestial Colonnade
3x Field of Ruin
4x Flooded Strand
2x Glacial Fortress
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Irrigated Farmland
5x Island
3x Plains
1x Tectonic Edge
Creature (6)
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique
2x Wall of Omens
Enchantment (6)
2x Detention Sphere
4x Spreading Seas
3x Cryptic Command
2x Mana Leak
1x Negate
4x Path to Exile
1x Spell Snare
1x Sphinx's Revelation
Planeswalker (5)
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1x Gideon Jura
2x Gideon of the Trials
1x Jace, Architect of Thought
Sorcery (7)
4x Serum Visions
3x Supreme Verdict
1x Blessed Alliance
1x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Dispel
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1x Geist of Saint Traft
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Negate
2x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Timely Reinforcements
I've been putting up good numbers with this list. No 5-0s, but a couple of 4-1s and a 3-2.
2 Wall of Omens
2 Snapcaster Mage
Planeswalker (4)
2 Gideon OTT
1 Jace Architect of thought
1 Gideon Jura
Interaction (19)
4 Path to Exile
3 Mana Leak
1 Negate
3 Spreading Seas
2 Detention Sphere
3 Cryptic Command
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
4 Serum Visions
2 Search for Azcanta
1 Supreme Will
1 Gifts Ungiven
Land (25)
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
3 Glacial Fortress
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Irrigated Farmland
5 Island
3 Plains
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Field of Ruin
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Rest in peace
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Dispel
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Stony Silence
1 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Celestial Purge
1 Crucible of Worlds
The Gifts Ungiven has been outstanding! There was a couple times when I probably would have closed out the game faster if Gifts was Sphinx's Rev, but there were more times that I just cast it around turn 5 and it was way better than rev in those instances. Certainly better than Glimmer of genius - Whenever you're behind it's "Draw 2 answer cards" and whenever you're ahead it's "draw 2 threats".
Interestingly, about half of my match losses were to Abzan midrange (lilly goyf bob). Having them able to Maelstrom and Abrupt decay most of my threats and my Dspheres hurt pretty bad and I missed Rev a lot in that match. When I was on a stock list that match felt so easy.
Going forward I may include an Elspeth, suns champ in the board to help with the GB midrange and I've been thinking of including a copy of Muddle the Mixture somewhere as an effective extra Search or Snap, and to make Gifts piles a little more interesting. I also wouldn't mind trying out a second gifts!
Your sideboard strategy definitely needs some reevaluation for the GDS matchup though! You shouldn't be cutting spreading seas against a 3 colour deck that runs so few basics, it is very easy to cut them off red completely and sometimes black too. What you should be taking out is Mana Leak. They have so many spells that cost 1 mana that even if you do get to leak something, youre still down mana the exchange. You also shouldn't be bringing in Timely and Blessed Alliance probably isn't where you want to be either, though it isn't too bad. The wrath of god should be supreme verdict #4, the uncounterable clause is so important and you shouldn't have too many issues with regeneration. Thrun can be hit by blessed, or shrunk by jace and blanked by Colonnade. You also definitely want to be bringing in that Condemn, making them gain life is great and hitting 1 Shadow hits them all!
So I recommend a SB strategy more like this.
-2 Jace
-1 Cryptic
-3 Mana Leak
+1 Condemn
+1 Verdict
+1 Dispel
+1 Purge
+2 RIP
Cheers and goodluck!
In general, jace, architect of thought, wall of omens, and countermagic are usually your worst cards.
In your board, blessed alliance, celestial purge, condemn, dispel, rest in peace, and wrath should come in.
Something like
+1 BA
+1 celestial purge
+1 condemn
+1 dispel
+2 rest in peace
+1 wrath
-2 jace, AoT
-1 negate
-2 wall of omens
-2 cryptic command
Its possible you may prefer some cryptics to mana leaks, hard to say. I play logic knot, which has fewer problems in this matchup, barring the occasional awkwardness with rest in peace. Cryptic being a hard counter is nice, but costing 4 is just so much.