I was thinking of adding ceremonious rejection to my SB because I just played Tron 12/15 of my last matches. When you bring in Spell Quellers do you always take out the verdicts? When I tried Spell Queller I ended up bringing them in almost always, even against creature decks where I still left in verdicts. Also are the 2 Jaces worth it?
I haven't really tested with new cards, but I've played Queller practically since I picked up this deck and never had a problem with bringing in it and Verdict at the same time. It doesn't really happen that often, tbh. That said, when you do find yourself with a Queller and a Verdict, you often can choose not to cast Queller and Verdict beforehand. When you can't, you just have to choose which is more important -- the Queller, the spell it's locking away, or your opponents' board state. If it's the board state, you Verdict (i.e., Elves, Goblins, etc.). If it's the spell it's locking away, you wait until you find an answer before you give the spell back or you just hope to outrace or topdeck an answer (which is still probably better than if you never had the chance to Queller in the first place) If you think the Queller is more valuable (like against Shadow, where it might just kill them or force them to overcommit before you Verdict, or against Titanshift with just a Baloth on board or something, where you can't win without pressure), you don't Verdict.
Having Queller and Verdict together is basically about knowing which calculated risks to take and your role/gameplan in the matchup.
I actually like them both on some matches and I really don't mind using queller as an ambush viper, specially against affinity and hate bears. Can't count how many times I killed arbiter and thalia since they usually side out the paths.
Jace is a favorite of mine since I keep seeing these bw lingering souls decks and they never overcommit.
Yeah, used to be only 3 strokes but I keep seeing lantern and tron/drazi so I'm now using 2 of each.
I tried your deck with with only 2 differences in the SB and went 4-1, only lost to the top trophy guy because I couldn't find a single removal spell. Now of course I started a new comp league and playing lantern twice in a row, fml. Starting to like spell queller a lot more and there are a lot of spells you can quell that don't have any targets after using a verdict anyway. I played against Jayjay also, Jace was pretty good in the mirror at least
I tried your deck with with only 2 differences in the SB and went 4-1, only lost to the top trophy guy because I couldn't find a single removal spell. Now of course I started a new comp league and playing lantern twice in a row, fml. Starting to like spell queller a lot more and there are a lot of spells you can quell that don't have any targets after using a verdict anyway. I played against Jayjay also, Jace was pretty good in the mirror at least
Whose list, and what changes did you make? I'd love it if you meant mine, seeing as I only play on Xmage, but I sortof doubt it. I've never even been a candidate for the league platform haha, but I've secretly always wanted to play in them. Alas, college costs a lot of time and money.
Pretty sure he meant Kerricks list, I don't see a clique MB in yours annhilator and he cliqued me when I thought it was safe to tap out in g1. Then Jace promptly beat me into a card-advantage coma lol
Ive seen BeenyHillz side board guide, but dont believe he is running Spell Queller. In what matchups are they favorable and what are you taking them out? Thanks.
Edit: If they are in the forum somewhere, my apologies.
Ive seen BeenyHillz side board guide, but dont believe he is running Spell Queller. In what matchups are they favorable and what are you taking them out? Thanks.
Edit: If they are in the forum somewhere, my apologies.
Combo and control decks is what I mainly bring them in for.
Ive seen BeenyHillz side board guide, but dont believe he is running Spell Queller. In what matchups are they favorable and what are you taking them out? Thanks.
Edit: If they are in the forum somewhere, my apologies.
Tbh, I like them against almost any opponent as long as there isn't dead removal for them. I think Queller is at its worst against BGx, best against Ad Naus and Lantern, and nice against Control and Burn/aggro (even if it's just a suprise blocker).
I tried your deck with with only 2 differences in the SB and went 4-1, only lost to the top trophy guy because I couldn't find a single removal spell. Now of course I started a new comp league and playing lantern twice in a row, fml. Starting to like spell queller a lot more and there are a lot of spells you can quell that don't have any targets after using a verdict anyway. I played against Jayjay also, Jace was pretty good in the mirror at least
Awesome, glad it went well. Let me know if you feel like any change is necessary since I always love to mess around with the list. Really liking the clique so far.
Yeah, jesus christ is the lantern match bad. I only win when I get lucky with the emblems, post sideboard the stonys and the counters help a lot but it's still an uphill battle.
Do you miss the walls of omens at all? I got beat to death slowly by an opposing snapcaster yesterday from grixis control, which is a tough matchup anyway. I'm still not 100% on playing 3 snappies in our deck, but more people seem to be going with that. I also like mainboard clique, not sure if 3 opt / 2 serum is right or to just go with 4 of 1 or the other. I would say one of the cantrips, a mana leak, a snappy or the logic knot for 2 walls is the only change I might make. Of course walls are useless against some of the bad matchups like lantern and storm...
My plan against lantern is usually hope they run out of time, which has happened a couple times, I made 1 mistake against Kanister that would have allowed me to get a Jace into play and maybe win. I played against it 3 times yesterday, won once, completely exhausting matches. The quellers were very nice against lantern, affinity and hate bears, but I tried bringing them in against BG thinking they would be good against Lilliana and can quell most of their creatures, but I left out most of the verdicts and I think that was a mistake. Still I feel like queller is good enough to be a mainboard card with or without verdicts.
edit: I think we need 2 RIPs in the sideboard, the vengevine / hallow one decks are not fun without a good chance of drawing it in game 2 and 3.
I agree that 2 Rest in Peace belong in the sideboard. It's just easily the most powerful card against Dredge and other GY based strategies. It's also fairly good against Abzan.
Yeah, I definitely miss them. Burn match up is even more miserable without them.
I may go back to them eventually but I just can't find the slot right now.
Just went 5-0 with a search for azcanta ramping into sphinx's revelation, that was really nice.
Still loving search for azcanta mostly for the ramping factor. Sometimes you really need that extra mana, specially after a verdict.
Yeah, that match up is a nightmare. Will definitely be using 2 rips if they continue to be popular.
Will be testing Porphyry Nodes now, have a feeling it's pretty good against all the fish and D&T.
Do you miss the walls of omens at all? I got beat to death slowly by an opposing snapcaster yesterday from grixis control, which is a tough matchup anyway. I'm still not 100% on playing 3 snappies in our deck, but more people seem to be going with that. I also like mainboard clique, not sure if 3 opt / 2 serum is right or to just go with 4 of 1 or the other. I would say one of the cantrips, a mana leak, a snappy or the logic knot for 2 walls is the only change I might make. Of course walls are useless against some of the bad matchups like lantern and storm...
Yeah, I definitely miss them. Burn match up is even more miserable without them.
I may go back to them eventually but I just can't find the slot right now and as you said, they really don't help our bad match ups.
I feel 3 snaps is borderline, it's why I keep trying to fit in another target for them.
Just went 5-0 with a search for azcanta ramping into sphinx's revelation, that was really nice.
Still loving search for azcanta mostly for the ramping factor. Sometimes you really need that extra mana, specially after a verdict.
Yeah, that match up is a nightmare. Will definitely be using 2 rips if they continue to be popular.
Will be testing Porphyry Nodes now, have a feeling it's pretty good against all the fish and D&T.
My suspicion, and it's obviously a hard one to substantiate, is that the virtual card advantage of Search makes up for the actual CA of Think Twice, especially if you can get it down before T4. Dumping a land when you're flooding, a cantrip when you're already holding a couple, a Colonnade when you really need an untapped land, etc. is a significant benefit turn after turn even if it doesn't flip. It's not going to be great versus overly aggressive decks, but neither really is Think Twice.
Porphyry Nodes is a very interesting idea. If it takes out one creature you're even on CA and likely up on tempo (in mana); against Merfolk, D&T, Elves it could force them to either overextend through it or stop for a turn to get it off the field.
I beat Eldrazi Tron 2-0, Slivers 2-0, and lost 0-2 to Burn.
Field of Ruin was great all night. Really like how you can just fire it off pretty liberally without having to choke yourself on mana. The fixing it provides is actually pretty nice as well. Looking back, I think if you are going to play a Crucible of Worlds in the sidedeck you should probably split it 2/2 with Ghost Quarter.
Opt continues to be unimpressive. I'm just going to cut it and play 4 Serum Visions. Opt just doesn't see enough cards and the instant speed in this deck isn't worth the lack of filtering it gives.
I do think I'm going to put Wall of Omens back in the deck. Likely cutting Clique and Snapcaster/Shadow of Doubt. It felt really bad to be so weak to my opponent's Goblin Guides.
Has anybody played around with 2 Gideon Jura in the main? It always feels like a total house when I cast it and I think going up to 2 copies may be great with the change in the rule.
I'm also considering tinkering around with Glimmer of Genius instead of Sphinx's Revelation. The life gain from revelation is great, but it is very slow and the average Revelation is typically for 3 cards. Glimmer may actually be better more often.
On Search for Azcanta - I've played a lot with the new cards now, somewhere in the vicinity of a hundred - hundred twenty games. My findings are in line with maniospas, cutting Jace, Rev, Think Twice etc and relying on solely 2-of Azcanta doesn't feel correct. We still need a critical number of card advantage sources. Azcanta has performed well, and 2 has felt like a fine number to have because it is nice to find it early, and perfectly justifiable but if I was to move back to other sources of card advantage I would probably want to diversify and move down to 1 Azcanta.
On Field of Ruin - The card is great. If your card advantage suite includes Sphinx's Rev I think you absolutely want Ruin over Tec or GQ. It was never a liability, even against the Primeval decks where I thought I would miss Tec edge greatly. As moxruby pointed out, the ability to fix your own mana is very relevant and comes up quite frequently. The only time I think I would choose to run Edge over Ruin would be if I was playing a bunch of Mana Leak and Supreme will or if I was running main deck crucible.
On Opt - The instant speed isn't particularly relevant in this deck. It's nice to have the option to have something to Snap back when you need to start applying pressure, but I'm not going to run a single Opt until I have 4 Serum visions in the deck. After the 4 visions, I don't think there is enough room to include 3 Opt, which is the minimum number I think you would want in order to reliably have it early enough in the game for it to matter with the Snap flashback. For that reason, I won't run any and I will keep the snapcaster count at 2.
With that said, I think for my next few leagues I'm going to test out variations of card advantage slots. I've already fiddled around a little bit with Chart a Course, it hasn't been very good. I thought maybe 1-2 copies of it would be fine, as if you open on it early it can smooth your draw, discard excess land etc and then sometimes in the late game you could attack with a snap or gideon and it would draw 2. I was never particularly happy to see it. I'm going to mess around a little bit with Crucible in the main for a CA engine as well as a 1-of Gifts Ungiven for value - I figure with a small downgrade in the sweeper suite like 2 Verdict, 1 Wrath, 1 Day of Judgement and a split of the LD lands like 2 Tec, 1 GQ and 1 Ruin, Gifts should be good at any point in the game. You can value gifts pile for wincons (ie Gideon, Gideon, Azcanta, Jace) removal (Wrath, DOJ, Verdict, Snap) or a LD package against big mana decks (Seas, GQ, Ruin, Edge). Lots of different options without sacrificing much (1 uncounterable wrath for basically the Grixis Shadow match). Here's what that list might look like
For card draw, compulsive research or tragic lesson are probably doing what you want chart a course to do, but better. Jace beleren is also pretty underplayed, IMO.
Beleren is alright, especially since lightning Bolt isn't as ubiquitous as it was, could be worth a slot. I actually think Chart a course is quite a bit better than Tragic lesson or Compulsive Research simply because of the reduced Mana cost, but none of those options seem very good, imo. I like the idea of being able to discard lands for value in a Crucible list, since lands tend to get stranded in your hand, but I don't feel they do enough on their own. My favourite variant of that type is probably careful consideration, but I've never been happy with that either.
I agree none of them all that great, but tragic lesson being an instant, and compulsive research being a +2, as well as being 3 drops (we have plenty of 1-2 drops, cantrips, seas, interaction, etc)
Careful consideration is alright, but for a 4 drop, its too medium, IMO. We want more out of that effect.
Mgoetze - Glimmer doesn't impress me much. I feel like it's a careful consideration variant, different upside/downside, but roughly the same, glimmer being slightly worse in my eyes, and consideration isn't quite playable either. Both Glimmer and Careful Consideration are VERY close to good, that's why I've been thinking about Gifts Ungiven. A lot of similarities to Glimmer, 4cmc, instant, +2 cards. But I think the upside is higher, because once we have 4 lands in play we probably want to our Glimmer to find action rather than land, and Gifts does that. The downside of Gifts is that it requires a few deck building concessions.
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I haven't really tested with new cards, but I've played Queller practically since I picked up this deck and never had a problem with bringing in it and Verdict at the same time. It doesn't really happen that often, tbh. That said, when you do find yourself with a Queller and a Verdict, you often can choose not to cast Queller and Verdict beforehand. When you can't, you just have to choose which is more important -- the Queller, the spell it's locking away, or your opponents' board state. If it's the board state, you Verdict (i.e., Elves, Goblins, etc.). If it's the spell it's locking away, you wait until you find an answer before you give the spell back or you just hope to outrace or topdeck an answer (which is still probably better than if you never had the chance to Queller in the first place) If you think the Queller is more valuable (like against Shadow, where it might just kill them or force them to overcommit before you Verdict, or against Titanshift with just a Baloth on board or something, where you can't win without pressure), you don't Verdict.
Having Queller and Verdict together is basically about knowing which calculated risks to take and your role/gameplan in the matchup.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Jace is a favorite of mine since I keep seeing these bw lingering souls decks and they never overcommit.
Yeah, used to be only 3 strokes but I keep seeing lantern and tron/drazi so I'm now using 2 of each.
Whose list, and what changes did you make? I'd love it if you meant mine, seeing as I only play on Xmage, but I sortof doubt it. I've never even been a candidate for the league platform haha, but I've secretly always wanted to play in them. Alas, college costs a lot of time and money.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Edit: If they are in the forum somewhere, my apologies.
Combo and control decks is what I mainly bring them in for.
Tbh, I like them against almost any opponent as long as there isn't dead removal for them. I think Queller is at its worst against BGx, best against Ad Naus and Lantern, and nice against Control and Burn/aggro (even if it's just a suprise blocker).
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Awesome, glad it went well. Let me know if you feel like any change is necessary since I always love to mess around with the list. Really liking the clique so far.
Yeah, jesus christ is the lantern match bad. I only win when I get lucky with the emblems, post sideboard the stonys and the counters help a lot but it's still an uphill battle.
My plan against lantern is usually hope they run out of time, which has happened a couple times, I made 1 mistake against Kanister that would have allowed me to get a Jace into play and maybe win. I played against it 3 times yesterday, won once, completely exhausting matches. The quellers were very nice against lantern, affinity and hate bears, but I tried bringing them in against BG thinking they would be good against Lilliana and can quell most of their creatures, but I left out most of the verdicts and I think that was a mistake. Still I feel like queller is good enough to be a mainboard card with or without verdicts.
edit: I think we need 2 RIPs in the sideboard, the vengevine / hallow one decks are not fun without a good chance of drawing it in game 2 and 3.
I may go back to them eventually but I just can't find the slot right now.
Just went 5-0 with a search for azcanta ramping into sphinx's revelation, that was really nice.
Still loving search for azcanta mostly for the ramping factor. Sometimes you really need that extra mana, specially after a verdict.
Yeah, that match up is a nightmare. Will definitely be using 2 rips if they continue to be popular.
Will be testing Porphyry Nodes now, have a feeling it's pretty good against all the fish and D&T.
Yeah, I definitely miss them. Burn match up is even more miserable without them.
I may go back to them eventually but I just can't find the slot right now and as you said, they really don't help our bad match ups.
I feel 3 snaps is borderline, it's why I keep trying to fit in another target for them.
Just went 5-0 with a search for azcanta ramping into sphinx's revelation, that was really nice.
Still loving search for azcanta mostly for the ramping factor. Sometimes you really need that extra mana, specially after a verdict.
Yeah, that match up is a nightmare. Will definitely be using 2 rips if they continue to be popular.
Will be testing Porphyry Nodes now, have a feeling it's pretty good against all the fish and D&T.
[/quote]
Porphyry Nodes is a very interesting idea. If it takes out one creature you're even on CA and likely up on tempo (in mana); against Merfolk, D&T, Elves it could force them to either overextend through it or stop for a turn to get it off the field.
4x Celestial Colonnade
4x Flooded Strand
4x Field of Ruin
2x Glacial Fortress
2x Hallowed Fountain
5x Island
3x Plains
1x Mystic Gate
Enchantment (6)
2x Detention Sphere
4x Spreading Seas
Creature (4)
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique
Instant (14)
4x Path to Exile
3x Cryptic Command
1x Mana Leak
1x Logic Knot
1x Negate
1x Shadow of Doubt
1x Think Twice
1x Sphinx's Revelation
1x Opt
1x Gideon Jura
2x Gideon of the Trials
2x Jace, Architect of Thought
Sorcery (6)
3x Serum Visions
3x Supreme Verdict
1x Blessed Alliance
1x Condemn
1x Celestial Purge
1x Dispel
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Negate
2x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
3x Kor Firewalker
I beat Eldrazi Tron 2-0, Slivers 2-0, and lost 0-2 to Burn.
Field of Ruin was great all night. Really like how you can just fire it off pretty liberally without having to choke yourself on mana. The fixing it provides is actually pretty nice as well. Looking back, I think if you are going to play a Crucible of Worlds in the sidedeck you should probably split it 2/2 with Ghost Quarter.
Opt continues to be unimpressive. I'm just going to cut it and play 4 Serum Visions. Opt just doesn't see enough cards and the instant speed in this deck isn't worth the lack of filtering it gives.
I do think I'm going to put Wall of Omens back in the deck. Likely cutting Clique and Snapcaster/Shadow of Doubt. It felt really bad to be so weak to my opponent's Goblin Guides.
Has anybody played around with 2 Gideon Jura in the main? It always feels like a total house when I cast it and I think going up to 2 copies may be great with the change in the rule.
I'm also considering tinkering around with Glimmer of Genius instead of Sphinx's Revelation. The life gain from revelation is great, but it is very slow and the average Revelation is typically for 3 cards. Glimmer may actually be better more often.
On Field of Ruin - The card is great. If your card advantage suite includes Sphinx's Rev I think you absolutely want Ruin over Tec or GQ. It was never a liability, even against the Primeval decks where I thought I would miss Tec edge greatly. As moxruby pointed out, the ability to fix your own mana is very relevant and comes up quite frequently. The only time I think I would choose to run Edge over Ruin would be if I was playing a bunch of Mana Leak and Supreme will or if I was running main deck crucible.
On Opt - The instant speed isn't particularly relevant in this deck. It's nice to have the option to have something to Snap back when you need to start applying pressure, but I'm not going to run a single Opt until I have 4 Serum visions in the deck. After the 4 visions, I don't think there is enough room to include 3 Opt, which is the minimum number I think you would want in order to reliably have it early enough in the game for it to matter with the Snap flashback. For that reason, I won't run any and I will keep the snapcaster count at 2.
With that said, I think for my next few leagues I'm going to test out variations of card advantage slots. I've already fiddled around a little bit with Chart a Course, it hasn't been very good. I thought maybe 1-2 copies of it would be fine, as if you open on it early it can smooth your draw, discard excess land etc and then sometimes in the late game you could attack with a snap or gideon and it would draw 2. I was never particularly happy to see it. I'm going to mess around a little bit with Crucible in the main for a CA engine as well as a 1-of Gifts Ungiven for value - I figure with a small downgrade in the sweeper suite like 2 Verdict, 1 Wrath, 1 Day of Judgement and a split of the LD lands like 2 Tec, 1 GQ and 1 Ruin, Gifts should be good at any point in the game. You can value gifts pile for wincons (ie Gideon, Gideon, Azcanta, Jace) removal (Wrath, DOJ, Verdict, Snap) or a LD package against big mana decks (Seas, GQ, Ruin, Edge). Lots of different options without sacrificing much (1 uncounterable wrath for basically the Grixis Shadow match). Here's what that list might look like
2 Wall of Omens
2 Snapcaster Mage
Planeswalker (4)
2 Gideon OTT
1 Jace Architect of thought
1 Gideon Jura
Interaction (19)
4 Path to Exile
3 Mana Leak
1 Negate
3 Spreading Seas
2 Detention Sphere
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
1 Day of Judgement
2 Cryptic Command
4 Serum Visions
1 Search for Azcanta
1 Supreme Will
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Gifts Ungiven
Land (25)
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
3 Glacial Fortress
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Irrigated Farmland
5 Island
3 Plains
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Field of Ruin
Careful consideration is alright, but for a 4 drop, its too medium, IMO. We want more out of that effect.
Side note - is anyone else not getting notifications? Maybe I accidentally turned off my notifications.