I think Serum and Opt are both very good cards and we probably want more than 4 total between the two. I have my suspicions that Serum is likely the stronger of the two, but I have been very impressed with Opt so who knows what the split should look like. I started at 4/4 Serum/opt then moved to 4/3 then 4/2, 3/3 and now going to try 2/4. 6 total felt the best so far with an even split between the two - I'll have a better idea after I get some games in at 2/4 though.
@TheAnnihilator0798 Haha, I wasn't saying you were in the challenge, just asking in general how/when to get in.
@Jayjay I have really liked Opt a lot as well, it's found an answer or land I needed on the spot many times and is a great target for snappy, but with 3 snaps the deck has felt a lot more powerful in general. Not sure what the best split with serum/opt would be, It would be nice to go down to 4 or 5 total between the 2 and squeeze in a few more powerful cards, but might be getting too greedy.
@ClarkCLK It's really funny if you play runed halo in the main against storm and valakut, you can almost see the shock on their face even through MTGO! That being said I just threw it back in the SB and put the Clique in the main on a whim before I started a new league. I saw a number of people talking about mindbreak trap haven't played with it, it seems good, but can't they still keep combo-ing through it if they have some extra mana?
My previous post was a bit deceptive, I now realize, since I hadn't cut Serum Visions altogether. I'm running 3 Opt, 2 Visions. It's awesome -- just crushed it on MTGO with the list I posted.
@slowgod yes, they can combo once more if they have spare mana and pif, thus if you put the storm spells in the graveyard when gifts resolve, they cannot win you in the spot unless they naturally draw another storm card (mainly Grapeshot, empty gives you small odds with cryptic tapping and supremes/detention. It's not a perfect answer, but its a really good one that can almost win the game in the spot. Also with snapcaster it reads, screw your opponent twice with 2 mana!
@Sword of Feast and Famine I do like that list you posted quite a bit. How are you finding the Walls still? I felt like I didn't miss them until an unanswered Goblin Guide beat me down in game 3 where I was going for 5-0 last night. I can't stick with the same 60 cards for more than 2 leagues in a row, I keep flip flopping like crazy. I just went down to only 2 opt and 2 serum to fit in walls again and then lost to jeskai... ugh I dunno what to do anymore. Would love to see what Bennyhillz is playing right now since he just got 2 5-0s probably without any trouble.
@ClarkCLK I'll pick up a mindbreak trap and see how it works, I did beat storm in game 1 and 3 last night mostly due to just having lots of counter spells and paths, it was very close though.
This is possibly a really bad idea, and if it is I wouldn't mind being told why, but has anyone ever considered Paradoxical Outcome alongside Wall of Omens, Spell Queller, Snapcaster Mage, and maybe one more value permanent as a CA engine?
I think Serum and Opt are both very good cards and we probably want more than 4 total between the two. I have my suspicions that Serum is likely the stronger of the two, but I have been very impressed with Opt so who knows what the split should look like. I started at 4/4 Serum/opt then moved to 4/3 then 4/2, 3/3 and now going to try 2/4. 6 total felt the best so far with an even split between the two - I'll have a better idea after I get some games in at 2/4 though.
Check the main Modern forum, there's a thread about Opt and I posted some data using it from about 30,000 games using a draw simulator and goldfish deck. The main difference is that if you're not facing much opposing pressure (as in, you can afford to wait another draw step) Serum Visions is superior by a lot, but if speed is a factor such as when you're facing a lot of pressure and need an answer that turn Opt is better. In general you're going to want a mix of the two. In general though, Serum Visions is better on T1 and gets worse as the game progresses to the critical turn, while Opt is much weaker on T1 and gets better as the game progresses to the critical turn.
If you can only afford 4 slots, then I would say you need to look at your curve. If you want to the T1 play use Serum Visions, but if you have a lot of CIPT lands, then Opt is better.
@Slowgod: I really like the Walls -- I don't think I'd want to play more than 2 though. There are some matchups where it's not great, obviously. But there are plenty of matchups where it shines, and it's awesome in conjunction with planeswalkers.
I think Serum and Opt are both very good cards and we probably want more than 4 total between the two. I have my suspicions that Serum is likely the stronger of the two, but I have been very impressed with Opt so who knows what the split should look like. I started at 4/4 Serum/opt then moved to 4/3 then 4/2, 3/3 and now going to try 2/4. 6 total felt the best so far with an even split between the two - I'll have a better idea after I get some games in at 2/4 though.
Check the main Modern forum, there's a thread about Opt and I posted some data using it from about 30,000 games using a draw simulator and goldfish deck. The main difference is that if you're not facing much opposing pressure (as in, you can afford to wait another draw step) Serum Visions is superior by a lot, but if speed is a factor such as when you're facing a lot of pressure and need an answer that turn Opt is better. In general you're going to want a mix of the two. In general though, Serum Visions is better on T1 and gets worse as the game progresses to the critical turn, while Opt is much weaker on T1 and gets better as the game progresses to the critical turn.
If you can only afford 4 slots, then I would say you need to look at your curve. If you want to the T1 play use Serum Visions, but if you have a lot of CIPT lands, then Opt is better.
I'll try to check that forum out. From the information you provided it seems I probably want more Opt, as when I have plenty of time (not under pressure) I don't really care which of the two I have. I want the one that gets me out from behind more often than not.
I'm currently building an UW list for a tournament this weekend with the new PW rules but I have troubles tuning it. I read all the last pages of this topic but I can't stop modify the list. Could you please give me your thoughts about it and if you know how to improve it.
For the lands I really like 24. But I don't know what to choose over 1 temple of enlightement or 1 irrigated farmlands as this one helps with the glacial foretress and is fetchable but I hardly never see it in the lists online.
For the creatures 3 snaps feels right to me with the 3 opts but I don't know for the 2 walls after looking at Slowgods list I like the idea tu cut them for 1 crucible and 1 shadow of doubts MD. Don't know what is more optimal.
For the planeswalkers I like to have 3 gideon of the trial with the new PW rules but maybe 2 is enough?
For the SB I cutted the spell quellers but I miss them a bit. Do you think they can be useful in the current meta?
Sorry for the long post. Any advice will be greatly appreciated
@DuanraD: The list i run is practically identical at yours. The only difference is i run 2 gideon of the trial, 1 sphinx's revelation and 1 mystic gate instead of temple of enlightement. For the SB I have 2 leyline of sanctity. I have a 5k at montreal in about 2 week and it pretty much the list i will be playing at the event.
I dont know how to put a deck on the comment, but here is my list on tappedout.
@DuanraD This looks good, I added the walls back in the other day because you really need them against burn and stuff with lots of little creatures. Sometimes they are pretty darn useless, but with 24 lands they are great for pathing at times. I have not gone up to 3 GoTT yet, but the 1 copy of AOZ has actually been a star after getting more games in with him. I like that mana base, same as the one I usually go with. The 1 temple is always a much better top deck land later in the game, farmland would be fine too. I like the 3rd plains over mystic gate because I run into a lot of blood moon. Mystic gate has helped cast cryptic earlier or make a hand with 1 plains and mystic gate keepable, but I think it's a super minor detail whichever way you go. I still don't know about Opt vs Serum, I'm switching the numbers on them every league and I don't think anyone can really decide yet. Your SB looks pretty much perfect to me. Still waiting to hear from Benny on all of these new changes!
Edit: I finally added a signature so you can check my decklist whenever lol! Has anyone played around with Clique in the main much? I really liked it, good clock, gives good information, but often have to decide when to verdict it away. I do really like this list from a modern challenge by Yusuke213, I'd probably change the 2nd clique to a Jura, but it seems like he squeezed more than 60 cards into 60 cards, I can't figure out what is missing from the standard lists! https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/769545#paper
@DuanraD - Your list looks perfectly serviceable. My only critique would be to include an additional white source since you are playing 3 Gideon of the Trials. I might recommend cutting an Island for a duel source. The only other thing that stands out to me is Temple of enlightment.
I don't think ETB tapped lands is where you want to be in modern. Others would recommend an additional Hallowed Fountaing,
but I like going up to 3 and even 4 Glacial Fortress as it ETBs untapped a huge percentage of the time after turn 1 (Source: Karsten)
Search for Azcanta is available on MTGO, I kinda wanna test it but don't know about 5 tickets for it... Anyone tested it at all in proxy or online?
I've gotten a few games in with it. Died with it in hand vs Burn G1, boarded it out and won the match. Was great vs some weird U/R control deck, and overloaded their Seas/Tec Edge in the mirror. Its performing better than I had anticipated ( and I had anticipated it highly lol). The GY-Scry feels amazing and a lot of the time I'm choosing not to flip it even when I could - just be cognizant of whether or not you need the mana or the impulse that turn and you will see that quite often you just want to scry for a couple more turns. This screams that it is definitely better than a 1-of; I'm on 2 but I'll test 3 eventually. Other notes - it makes your LD lands and your Colonnades better because as I said it overloads their LD spells.
Hey all, so I appreciate the side boarding advice but it's still been a pretty annoying issue for me. I suppose as time goes on I'll learn more. I'm not sure if my board is good or not, but it seems fairly standard after looking at the decks that are getting good results recently.
I know we tend to like it all on the site using our deck function, but I'm lazy and had this done already. I'm finding my matches against Abzan and Eldrazi Tron difficult so far (in my testing today), but that might just be user error.
Thanks a lot @Kabouse23 @Slowgod @jayjayhooks for pour answer!
@Kabouse23: yes our lists are almost the same. I guess your sphinx revelation is my third Gideon. How did Sphinx revelation works for you with 24 lands? I used to play it with 25 but when I cutted the land I cutted the revelation too. Is it still playable for you?
@Slowgod: to add the walls I saw you cut the MD crucible and shadow of doubts. Didn't these two cards miss you? For the clique I really like it! But as much I love it MD in Jeskai midrange here I'm not totally sold especially 2. I saw that you also add 1 Sphinx revelation MD, same as for Kabouse23 do you find it good with only 24 lands? For the lands I face many bloodmoon so the third plains feels an obligation to me.
@jayjayhooks: I understand why you think another white source is good. I will see if I cut a land for another glacial fortress!
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I think Serum and Opt are both very good cards and we probably want more than 4 total between the two. I have my suspicions that Serum is likely the stronger of the two, but I have been very impressed with Opt so who knows what the split should look like. I started at 4/4 Serum/opt then moved to 4/3 then 4/2, 3/3 and now going to try 2/4. 6 total felt the best so far with an even split between the two - I'll have a better idea after I get some games in at 2/4 though.
@Jayjay I have really liked Opt a lot as well, it's found an answer or land I needed on the spot many times and is a great target for snappy, but with 3 snaps the deck has felt a lot more powerful in general. Not sure what the best split with serum/opt would be, It would be nice to go down to 4 or 5 total between the 2 and squeeze in a few more powerful cards, but might be getting too greedy.
@ClarkCLK It's really funny if you play runed halo in the main against storm and valakut, you can almost see the shock on their face even through MTGO! That being said I just threw it back in the SB and put the Clique in the main on a whim before I started a new league. I saw a number of people talking about mindbreak trap haven't played with it, it seems good, but can't they still keep combo-ing through it if they have some extra mana?
BURGrixis ControlBUR
BURGrixis DelverBUR (RIP)
UWBEsper GiftsUWB
UWUW Jace ControlUW
GUBSultai ControlGUB
UBTezzeret Agent of BolasUB
@ClarkCLK I'll pick up a mindbreak trap and see how it works, I did beat storm in game 1 and 3 last night mostly due to just having lots of counter spells and paths, it was very close though.
Check the main Modern forum, there's a thread about Opt and I posted some data using it from about 30,000 games using a draw simulator and goldfish deck. The main difference is that if you're not facing much opposing pressure (as in, you can afford to wait another draw step) Serum Visions is superior by a lot, but if speed is a factor such as when you're facing a lot of pressure and need an answer that turn Opt is better. In general you're going to want a mix of the two. In general though, Serum Visions is better on T1 and gets worse as the game progresses to the critical turn, while Opt is much weaker on T1 and gets better as the game progresses to the critical turn.
If you can only afford 4 slots, then I would say you need to look at your curve. If you want to the T1 play use Serum Visions, but if you have a lot of CIPT lands, then Opt is better.
You can't flashback Mindbreak Trap with Snapcaster Mage and pay 0.
I'll try to check that forum out. From the information you provided it seems I probably want more Opt, as when I have plenty of time (not under pressure) I don't really care which of the two I have. I want the one that gets me out from behind more often than not.
I'm currently building an UW list for a tournament this weekend with the new PW rules but I have troubles tuning it. I read all the last pages of this topic but I can't stop modify the list. Could you please give me your thoughts about it and if you know how to improve it.
For the moment it is:
4x Flooded Strand
4x Celestial Colonnade
2x Ghost Quarter
2x Tectonic Edge
2x Glacial Fortress
1x Hallowed Fountain
5x Island
3x Plains
1x Temple of Enlightenment
Planeswalker (6)
1x Gideon Jura
1x Gideon, AoZ
3x Gideon of the Trials
1x Jace, Architect of Thought
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Wall of Omen
Instant (14)
4x Path to Exile
3x Opt
3x Mana Leak
1x Negate
3x Cryptic Command
Enchantment (6)
2x Detention Sphere
4x Spreading Seas
Sorcery (5)
2x Serum Visions
3x Supreme Verdict
1x Runed Halo
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Blessed Alliance
1x Celestial Purge
1x Dispel
1x Negate
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1x Geist of Saint Traft
1x Vendilion clique
2x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Timely Reinforcements
For the lands I really like 24. But I don't know what to choose over 1 temple of enlightement or 1 irrigated farmlands as this one helps with the glacial foretress and is fetchable but I hardly never see it in the lists online.
For the creatures 3 snaps feels right to me with the 3 opts but I don't know for the 2 walls after looking at Slowgods list I like the idea tu cut them for 1 crucible and 1 shadow of doubts MD. Don't know what is more optimal.
For the planeswalkers I like to have 3 gideon of the trial with the new PW rules but maybe 2 is enough?
For the SB I cutted the spell quellers but I miss them a bit. Do you think they can be useful in the current meta?
Sorry for the long post. Any advice will be greatly appreciated
Infect
Mardu
Jund
Tron
Dredge
I dont know how to put a deck on the comment, but here is my list on tappedout.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/01-01-17-uw-control/
Edit: I finally added a signature so you can check my decklist whenever lol! Has anyone played around with Clique in the main much? I really liked it, good clock, gives good information, but often have to decide when to verdict it away. I do really like this list from a modern challenge by Yusuke213, I'd probably change the 2nd clique to a Jura, but it seems like he squeezed more than 60 cards into 60 cards, I can't figure out what is missing from the standard lists! https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/769545#paper
I don't think ETB tapped lands is where you want to be in modern. Others would recommend an additional Hallowed Fountaing,
but I like going up to 3 and even 4 Glacial Fortress as it ETBs untapped a huge percentage of the time after turn 1 (Source: Karsten)
I've gotten a few games in with it. Died with it in hand vs Burn G1, boarded it out and won the match. Was great vs some weird U/R control deck, and overloaded their Seas/Tec Edge in the mirror. Its performing better than I had anticipated ( and I had anticipated it highly lol). The GY-Scry feels amazing and a lot of the time I'm choosing not to flip it even when I could - just be cognizant of whether or not you need the mana or the impulse that turn and you will see that quite often you just want to scry for a couple more turns. This screams that it is definitely better than a 1-of; I'm on 2 but I'll test 3 eventually. Other notes - it makes your LD lands and your Colonnades better because as I said it overloads their LD spells.
Overall, card is fantastic.
Here's my list: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/26-09-17-Gqq-uw-control/
I know we tend to like it all on the site using our deck function, but I'm lazy and had this done already. I'm finding my matches against Abzan and Eldrazi Tron difficult so far (in my testing today), but that might just be user error.
UWR Control
BR Hollow One
@Kabouse23: yes our lists are almost the same. I guess your sphinx revelation is my third Gideon. How did Sphinx revelation works for you with 24 lands? I used to play it with 25 but when I cutted the land I cutted the revelation too. Is it still playable for you?
@Slowgod: to add the walls I saw you cut the MD crucible and shadow of doubts. Didn't these two cards miss you? For the clique I really like it! But as much I love it MD in Jeskai midrange here I'm not totally sold especially 2. I saw that you also add 1 Sphinx revelation MD, same as for Kabouse23 do you find it good with only 24 lands? For the lands I face many bloodmoon so the third plains feels an obligation to me.
@jayjayhooks: I understand why you think another white source is good. I will see if I cut a land for another glacial fortress!
Infect
Mardu
Jund
Tron
Dredge