F your gonna pop a gq on their turn the step is best time as they can't float mana and if it's a low basic deck it's like 1 million points of a percent better chance they drew last basic and it's now a straight wasteland.
Is there any practical difference between activating GQ on their upkeep or in response to their draw step?
In general using GQ on their draw step gives them more information and lets them make a better decision about what basic to fetch. Against GX tron if they only have colourless sources in play, they will probably grab a forest even if they only have colourless cards in hand. However, if you give them a draw step to potentially draw a card of their X colour, it means that they are able to then fetch for that colour.
It's a marginal advantage, but depriving your opponent of information when they make a decision gives them more chances to make a bad one.
Definitely GQ in draw step. Or better yet, run 4 Tec edge instead ;). Unless you have crucible in the 75 (and even then most of the time) Tec edge is just going to be way better so often. GQ is nice to have against affinity, shadow and burn but those are all ok matchups anyways. Against almost everything else you're going to wish your GQ was an edge.
Edge is too slow against G(x) Tron since you have to wait for them to have four lands in play. They only need three lands to play something like Karn, Liberated. Better to ghost quarter them early and prevent them from getting tron online. They only really need to resolve one of their big planeswalkers for us to be in trouble.
No argument that edge is often better though.
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EDH UBRJeleva, Nephalia's Scourge BWTeysa,Orzhov Scion GWKarametra, God of Harvests UW Dragonlord Ojutai R Daretti, Scrap Savant
Edge is too slow against G(x) Tron since you have to wait for them to have four lands in play. They only need three lands to play something like Karn, Liberated. Better to ghost quarter them early and prevent them from getting tron online. They only really need to resolve one of their big planeswalkers for us to be in trouble.
No argument that edge is often better though.
If you have to GQ tron in the first 3 turns, you're already dead. If they resolve the karn or if you GQ them on t3, in both cases you lose a land and they are up a permanent. Obvious hyperbole, but in all seriousness if you can't interact in any other way than GQ your shot at winning that game is slim unless they get incredibly unlucky.
Edge is too slow against G(x) Tron since you have to wait for them to have four lands in play. They only need three lands to play something like Karn, Liberated. Better to ghost quarter them early and prevent them from getting tron online. They only really need to resolve one of their big planeswalkers for us to be in trouble.
No argument that edge is often better though.
If you have to GQ tron in the first 3 turns, you're already dead. If they resolve the karn or if you GQ them on t3, in both cases you lose a land and they are up a permanent. Obvious hyperbole, but in all seriousness if you can't interact in any other way than GQ your shot at winning that game is slim unless they get incredibly unlucky.
So doomsday, eh? Lol!
Lots of Burn in my meta so I run the split, but for a Grand Prix I would take all Edge no question. I've played a lot of Control variants in my short Magic career, but this deck is unique....which is why I asked the question.
This deck is amazing because I can't tell you how many times I am dead and going through the motions of "how do I survive one more turn" and I steal the game. I recently won (er, stole) four game 1's in a row that way at a Monday Modern event. Luck favors the prepared mind and I want to give myself the most chances to get lucky, because this deck seems to be wired to reward playing to your outs turn over turn.
EDIT: BTW, Gideon Jura is great for that. Jura into Cryptic into Verdict (or similar variant) and then stealing the game sucks the life and soul out of your opponent, and as a Lantern player that gives me the Jollies.
There is one catch to Tec Edge vs. GQ that I'm surprised nobody has mentioned yet -- the mana required to activate Tec Edge. I've often found this to be problematic for activating it and being able to hold up countermagic or cast a Verdict or whatever in the same turn. This in addition to being able to use GQ when Tron or Affinity doesn't have 4 lands and the ability to destroy your own non-basics against Blood Moon to search for basic lands or trade Islands for non-Islands against Choke, I find there to be serious reason to play GQ over Tec Edge. I personally play a 2/2 split because Tec Edge is just super good when it's good (and plays better with Seas), but I honestly think GQ is a necessary evil. I'd actually be more easily convinced to play more GQs than to play more Tec Edges, but I'm too greedy not to slot in a couple of Tec Edges.
Also, there are scenarios against Gx Tron where you're actually ahead by T3 and want to force them to stumble by GQ'ing them early because your hand is pretty unbeatable if they stumble (especially post-sideboard, or if they play a non-Tron land in the first few turns).
There is one catch to Tec Edge vs. GQ that I'm surprised nobody has mentioned yet -- the mana required to activate Tec Edge. I've often found this to be problematic for activating it and being able to hold up countermagic or cast a Verdict or whatever in the same turn. This in addition to being able to use GQ when Tron and Affinity doesn't have 4 lands and the ability to destroy your own non-basics against Blood Moon to search for basic lands or trade Islands for non-Islands against Choke, I find there to be serious reason to play GQ over Tec Edge. I personally play a 2/2 split because Tec Edge is just super good when it's good (and plays better with Seas), but I honestly think GQ is a necessary evil. I'd actually be more easily convinced to play more GQs than to play more Tec Edges, but I'm too greedy not to slot in a couple of Tec Edges.
Also, there are scenarios against Gx Tron where you're actually ahead by T3 and want to force them to stumble by GQ'ing them early because your hand is pretty unbeatable if they stumble (especially post-sideboard).
The mana to activate is definitely a real concern, which is, imo, the main reason GQ is better against burn and affinity. Obviously it's important that they might not ever get to 4 lands, but you also just don't have the time to find the extra mana to dump into it. But since these matchups are generally ok, I don't mind eschewing the GQs to pick up a few percentage points in other matchups where tec edge shines.
I prefer GQ over Tec Edge. The reason I like them though is becasue we are playing 4 paths and 4 GQ along with spreading seas. I played the deck more of a land destruction deck though. Basically running them out of resources. It always felt cleaner to run GQ and have the option to blow up manlands whenever you want (specifically against infect and affinity) rather than playing Tec Edge.
I understand that this is my opinion and I'm not trying to say someone is right or wrong. I just prefer GQ because it's more effective earlier in the games than Tec Edge is, there's no requirment that needs to be met before activating, and it works really well with the rest of the deck. That being said, my decks were always a bit more midrangey than most UW control lists. I played angels and splicers to help keep my life total as high as possible while I start working on shutting down their mana and locking them out of the game.
The only time that I don't like GQ over Tec edge is when I have to play against Jund/Abzan or another control deck (and tbh, there arent that many in the format right now). With these kinds of decks sort of being pushed out of the format, I think it raises a better opportunity for GQ to be better or more effective than Tec Edge.
New Soorani article is up on SCG. He says that Spreading Seas is awful and we'd better move to Jeskai.
To quote him:
I doubt I will ever sleeve up just U/W Control in any Modern event again. The third color is just that important, whether it is black for Lingering Souls, hand disruption, and Fatal Push, or red for the reach and lifegain. I suggest learning from my stumble here and (...)
Lol, it looks like he feels like I did my first couple of weeks with this deck!
In Standard I was on Esper Walkers like 18 months ago before than manabase become impossible. Soorani kept trying to make it work and I wasted months as a "devotee" fumbling down that path... Follow him if you want, but I've had a heavy dose of that pain already. He makes valid points but his conclusions are sometime ridiculous.
Yeah, his UW decklist is also awful, and spreading seas can just straight win games a lot of times. My opponents complain so much about spreading seas when I play them in paper, it's great. I do have this tendency to draw 3 or 4 of them in a game and before long my opponent is playing mono blue
I haven't played UW for nearly as long as some of you guys on this thread (I have played Esper for years), but I'll venture to say that Spreading Seas is one of the main reasons to play UW -- it shores up traditionally bad matchups (Tron anyone?), it cantrips/kills manlands, it forces opponents to stumble on mana... It's really amazing, even if it seems like a "do nothing" sorcery. I would never consider just completely cutting it, honestly.
And as far as Soorani is concerned, I kindof like the guy but he plays much more midrangey, tap-out style decks than pure control. I honestly don't think this deck is all that midrangey, even if it is somewhat tap-out. We can easily play draw-go, even to the point that some of us play a Think Twice maindeck. I definitely could see him preferring a different deck. That's not the same as saying any other deck he might play is better than UW tho.
Yeah, his UW decklist is also awful, and spreading seas can just straight win games a lot of times....
Have to agree, that list looks pretty bad. Multiple logic knot, multiple Jura, multiple spell snare and no Gideon Trials. I don't think this deck can function without Gideon of the Trials. I can't remember which article I read it in, but I'm pretty sure it was Turtenwald who said something along the lines of 'most people don't realize how big of a difference 5 cards in a list can make'. I think that rings true here; I don't think spreading seas should take the blame- Soorani's list is pretty far away from anything that I would personally consider sleeving up.
The Soorani article just proves that pros arent very good at modern - they focus on limited and standard and think they can just pick up modern and play - modern isnt like that - it takes many months to be good at modern - especially UW control. Further to this - as others have said his build is nothing short of atrocious..
I play Lantern and UW Control, so I'm just tickled! UW is my primary deck right now, and that won't change anytime soon, but I keep Lantern sleeved up and ready to go at all times.
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Esper draw go Control!
Twitch stream: http://www.twitch.tv/pimpdonny
In general using GQ on their draw step gives them more information and lets them make a better decision about what basic to fetch. Against GX tron if they only have colourless sources in play, they will probably grab a forest even if they only have colourless cards in hand. However, if you give them a draw step to potentially draw a card of their X colour, it means that they are able to then fetch for that colour.
It's a marginal advantage, but depriving your opponent of information when they make a decision gives them more chances to make a bad one.
No argument that edge is often better though.
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's Scourge
BWTeysa,Orzhov Scion
GWKarametra, God of Harvests
UW Dragonlord Ojutai
R Daretti, Scrap Savant
Modern
GB Tron
UW UW Control
If you have to GQ tron in the first 3 turns, you're already dead. If they resolve the karn or if you GQ them on t3, in both cases you lose a land and they are up a permanent. Obvious hyperbole, but in all seriousness if you can't interact in any other way than GQ your shot at winning that game is slim unless they get incredibly unlucky.
Lots of Burn in my meta so I run the split, but for a Grand Prix I would take all Edge no question. I've played a lot of Control variants in my short Magic career, but this deck is unique....which is why I asked the question.
This deck is amazing because I can't tell you how many times I am dead and going through the motions of "how do I survive one more turn" and I steal the game. I recently won (er, stole) four game 1's in a row that way at a Monday Modern event. Luck favors the prepared mind and I want to give myself the most chances to get lucky, because this deck seems to be wired to reward playing to your outs turn over turn.
EDIT: BTW, Gideon Jura is great for that. Jura into Cryptic into Verdict (or similar variant) and then stealing the game sucks the life and soul out of your opponent, and as a Lantern player that gives me the Jollies.
Also, there are scenarios against Gx Tron where you're actually ahead by T3 and want to force them to stumble by GQ'ing them early because your hand is pretty unbeatable if they stumble (especially post-sideboard, or if they play a non-Tron land in the first few turns).
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
The mana to activate is definitely a real concern, which is, imo, the main reason GQ is better against burn and affinity. Obviously it's important that they might not ever get to 4 lands, but you also just don't have the time to find the extra mana to dump into it. But since these matchups are generally ok, I don't mind eschewing the GQs to pick up a few percentage points in other matchups where tec edge shines.
I understand that this is my opinion and I'm not trying to say someone is right or wrong. I just prefer GQ because it's more effective earlier in the games than Tec Edge is, there's no requirment that needs to be met before activating, and it works really well with the rest of the deck. That being said, my decks were always a bit more midrangey than most UW control lists. I played angels and splicers to help keep my life total as high as possible while I start working on shutting down their mana and locking them out of the game.
The only time that I don't like GQ over Tec edge is when I have to play against Jund/Abzan or another control deck (and tbh, there arent that many in the format right now). With these kinds of decks sort of being pushed out of the format, I think it raises a better opportunity for GQ to be better or more effective than Tec Edge.
Just my 2 cents
In Standard I was on Esper Walkers like 18 months ago before than manabase become impossible. Soorani kept trying to make it work and I wasted months as a "devotee" fumbling down that path... Follow him if you want, but I've had a heavy dose of that pain already. He makes valid points but his conclusions are sometime ridiculous.
And as far as Soorani is concerned, I kindof like the guy but he plays much more midrangey, tap-out style decks than pure control. I honestly don't think this deck is all that midrangey, even if it is somewhat tap-out. We can easily play draw-go, even to the point that some of us play a Think Twice maindeck. I definitely could see him preferring a different deck. That's not the same as saying any other deck he might play is better than UW tho.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Have to agree, that list looks pretty bad. Multiple logic knot, multiple Jura, multiple spell snare and no Gideon Trials. I don't think this deck can function without Gideon of the Trials. I can't remember which article I read it in, but I'm pretty sure it was Turtenwald who said something along the lines of 'most people don't realize how big of a difference 5 cards in a list can make'. I think that rings true here; I don't think spreading seas should take the blame- Soorani's list is pretty far away from anything that I would personally consider sleeving up.
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
Top 8:
Lantern
U/W Control
U/R Storm
Eldrazi & Taxes
Titanshift
Affinity
Titanshift
U/W Control
Lantern won the finals vs U/W Control.
Edit: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/modern-challenge-2017-08-20
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver