The argument that Rev is necessary is contradicted by the fact that virtually everyone only runs a single copy with no way to tutor for it. Except for in control matches (where Rev kinda sucks) you're unlikely to even find the Singleton over the course of any given game.
That's not a contradiction. You're just not thinking clearly.
You only play one because you only want it late game to fuel your hand and or pad your life total. But you never want to draw it in your opener. You can argue for two copies meaning you're much more probable to draw it but also more probable to have it in your opener.
With 1 copy you're 12% chance to have it in the opener and 22% if you run two copies. However, assuming you see 15 cards deep (which is about turn 10 into the game if you factor in all the card draw, Serum Visions and Jace you have a probability of 35% if you play one copy and you would think that the probability to see it then is 70% if you run two, but no it's 58% only. Notice that 22% is almost double the probability of having it in the opener relative to 12% if you run one copy. But 58% is further from the the double of 35% than 22% is the double of 12%. So you don't leverage as much on having 2 copies lategame as much as you dilute your opening hands with an unwanted card.
This is why you only run 1 copy.
All that math is very lovely, and much appreciated, but 35% still suggests that you are unlikely to see it in the majority of games, which means it isn't necessary (assuming we have a better than 35% win rate). At 58% you would see it in more games than you wouldn't.
So it seems like you read the post but did not really understand what you read?
That must be the case. Because to my eye, if you're seeing it in 35% of games it can't be that necessary. What is necessary for example is having access to triple blue for cryptic, or hitting land drop number 4 for verdict, which is why we aim for 85%+ probabilities (rather than 35). And why we run 19+ blue sources instead of 3 and 26 land rather than 4.
All that's good. Except we usually see about 30-35 cards each match, between our low closing speed and our many cards filtering (thanks to Serums, Seas, Jace, Temple etcetera) so that you'll see it anyway most of the time.
I would say most games are decided long before we see 35 cards. I think if you say that you see (let alone cast, let alone cast for x=>2) Rev in more than 50% of your games against non-control decks you are either not keeping track, experiencing confirmation bias or are being disingenuous.
Perhaps when you are drawing 5 cards you are getting destroyed by decks that go under you are dont care how much life or cards you draw? Not everyone has to agree with you mate
I don't get this, with snappy you can cast this card over 3 times in one game but sometimes you don't have the answer readily available and Rev lets you dig. Maybe having a 4th verdict in the SB if your meta calls for it, or you can cut something else MB but Rev does WORK in this deck.
My only argument is that Rev is the weakest card in the deck and that it isn't necessary for the strategy. Any card that is a 1:of (without a consistent way to find it, meaning in the vast majority of games played) is by definition not necessary. When the card is not necessary, and is the worst card in the deck, it seems logical to cut it.
1-of Gideon Jura - not necessary. Which is why you see plenty of people opting to cut it for Elspeth or other cards. There are arguments for 1-of cards, no one is going to say otherwise. That doesn't detract from the fact that Revelation is the worst card in the deck and not necessary. My argument is that Verdict is quite often the best card in the deck and would save a SB slot by moving number 4 to the main. To me, the most logical cut is the worst card in the deck.
I would say most games are decided long before we see 35 cards. I think if you say that you see (let alone cast, let alone cast for x=>2) Rev in more than 50% of your games against non-control decks you are either not keeping track, experiencing confirmation bias or are being disingenuous.
Given that I play 2 Revelations, that's not the case anyway. Usually, most games involving us on the defensive line, trying to answer every threat on the opponent's field. Then, there are two possibilities: a) we see a CA engine - Jace AOT or Rev - or a huge planeswalker to seal the deal quickly, or: b) we don't see CA engines and we perish because the opponent has more threats than our answers. This is the norm. So, you have to consider that Revelation isn't a random one of in the deck, but the third piece of card advantage in your starting sixty. So, you are almost sure to see at least one of them between your first twenty-twentyfive cards. Other than that, you are missing one of the most common line: Rev for two in the early game, Snap them back in the late for 6-7. Which ends the game immediately.
This is a good argument for it's inclusion. Still not necessary, because if we consider it a 3rd win condition it could be replaced by another win condition. But yea, this makes a lot of sense.
Lol dunning kruger - coming from the guy who crunched the numbers and determined that a card that shows up 35% of the time is necessary. Why bother with definitions I guess, right?
One of the cards has to be the weakest in the deck, which do you suppose it is?
I've played a lot of esper draw-go and am jumping on to UW now mostly because I think spreading seas has a lot to offer, and I like gideon of the trials. My local meta is heavy on all variations of tron and burn - so also having jace and gideon working to suppress burn sounds good to me.
I've read the past few pages but as you can imagine can't really read the whole thread so if anyone can indulge me here I have a couple questions on the builds I see:
1) Tectonic Edge vs Ghost Quarter (list I'm on has 4 tec edge 0 GQ, but I've seen 2/2 splits as well) - what's the idea between one and the other? I hadnt seen tec edge in forever until it appeared here.
2) wall of omens - what would make you play this vs not play it? just generic aggro decks? is it a coin flip if you're expecting burn/tron?
3) temple of englightenment - I see above posts saying its worst card in deck. Is it worth the one-of or just don't bother?
4) Elspeth suns champion main - why/why not? (otherwise 2 gideon of trials, 1 gideon jura, 2 jace aot seem standard). Is she better in board than MD?
Again coming from draw-go where we interact if necessary and draw if not, which seems very different from the idea of "**** it, just tap out for a planeswalker or a spreading seas and we'll sort the mess out later". Draw-go background does make me very sour on playing mana leak with path to exile so I will avoid sleeving leak in this deck for as long as possible ;p
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
@badmcfadden - Tec Edge vs Quarter is meta dependent. GQ is preferable against affinity, as they often won't run out land #4 against us. I prefer 4 Tec edge generally as it helps mitigate the dreaded Leak + Path problem. Leak is unfortunately necessary in the deck. Some are running 2 leak + either 1 Supreme Will or 1 Logic knot.
Wall of Omens isn't really a meta thing, it's more of a strategy thing. The reason to play U/W is supreme verdict, and wall of Omens plays nicely into that game plan by making opponents over-extend into it. It's never a dead card, and is often a crucial play before dropping a planeswalker. I often find myself not blocking with wall because I want to protect a Gideon the following turn. Sure it's sub-par against decks that don't attack, but it's not dead and gives you a Target for your paths.
Temple is a way to mitigate flood a little when we play 25-26 land. I personally advocate Irrigated Farmland instead as it at least turns on Glacial Fortress.
I don't really have a lot of say about Elspeth. Ive never thrown it in the main or side, but it seems like a popular choice in the SB but the exact reasoning alludes me.
Looking at recent discussion about whether or not to play Sphinx's Revalation, or the numbers on specific cards like Supreme Verdict or Elspeth, I feel something needs to constantly be kept in mind regarding these 1-2 slot changes to our decks: the deck plays a lot of cantrips. I think most all of us can agree that UW needs 4 Serum Visions for consistency and early plays and 4 Spreading Seas in order to combat big-mana decks and man-lands, in addition to some number of Wall of Omens. That core alone is between 8-10 cantrips minimum played in every UW deck. In addition, all of us are playing between 2-4 Cryptic Command, which in 90% of all situations will use the "Draw a Card" mode, plus MD flex cards like a Think Twice or two and possibly Relic of Progenitus from the SB. What I'm getting at is that we can't evaluate cards like a BGx control deck with no card draw does; our cantrips combined w/ our extremely slow style of play will lead us to see a good portion of our deck most games. A card like singleton Sphinx Rev is played as a massive bomb because we won't open it very often yet we have a reasonable chance to draw it late into the game where we need it most. It's also the only instant-speed bomb I see this deck playing, which is crucial against Tron, Storm, Valakut, and other control-ish decks.
I haven't been a fan of Sphinx Rev in the past but I feel that the singleton that most of us play now is well worth the slot considering we'll ideally go to the long-game every game. If you need to SB out cards to fit in more cards to survive the early game against aggro and fast decks, then SB Rev out. It seems really simple to me.
I don't think the fourth Verdict in the MD is the correct call for the reason I made above regarding cantrips: I usually see one of my 3 Verdicts in time to cast it against the decks that I actually want it against, and I absolutely don't want Verdict against matchups that I'm actually worried about, such as any sort of combo. Another way of putting it would be: I don't want to draw multiple Verdicts in the first 4-5 turns against almost anything. I'd rather have the fourth in the board when I need it and know that my cantrips will allow me to see one of the 3 with consistency.
Elspeth, Sun's Champion is a card that kinda confuses me because I've kept it in my SB for months while SBing it in not very often, and still being unimpressed by it. The primary reason for this is that at 6 mana, we'll only be casting it in the long game. So against any deck were we need interaction desperately in the early game, we probably won't be siding her in. Now she's only viable against decks that aren't pressuring us early game, and she's our massive 6-mana sorcery-speed bomb. Well, against regular Tron, she's blank because she's too slow and too loo impact. Against Eldrazi Tron, her sweep mode is relevant but they play 4 Walking Ballista and they can actually put out a lot of pressure mid game to make her irrelevant. Against BGx, she's 6 freaking mana against a deck that doensn't play bombs over 4 mana and always has 3-4 Lili to ensure we don't get to play her, in addition to Lingering Souls making Elspeth look like a joke. Against other control decks like the mirror or Jeskai, you have to be out of your mind to try and resolve a 6-mana sorcery-speed planeswalker against a blue deck. Sure, she'll win the game if she hits, but she probably won't hit, and even if she does, the possibility of a D-Sphere is common.
I've been playing Chippy's idea of Crucible recently and I feel that its a much better use of the bomby SB slot than Elspeth, primarily because anytime you're SBing in Elspeth, its against decks that can't kill you immediately, and thats where walkers and cards like Crucible shine. More importantly, Crucible is much more practical to cast with a greater utility than Elspeth. Turn 4-5 Crucible against Valakut decks or Tron means that they have to end the game soon before they lose their lands. Same in the mirror, except recurring Colonades and Stands for mana is also powerful. With a card like Crucible, you're trading raw power for practicality and utility.
Speaking on utility, I also like the singleton Irrigated Farmland much more than the Temple of Enlightenment in a 25 land build. I play 1 Hallowed Fountain and 1 Farmland with the standard 4 Flooded Strand. I primarily like Farmland because if its not my first or 3rd land drop, it instead gets cycled for more action. Considering this deck can't play Horizon Canopy and doesn't have very many raw card-advantage spells, being able to trade excess lands in for more gas is a significant plus. As mentioned above me, it also turns on Glacial Fortress.
Ghost quarter is good with crucible. It lets you actually run them out of lands.
Most decks don't have all that many basics, and ghost quarters + paths + basics they naturally find usually means some of our pathes/gqs have no drawback.
Tectonic edge is a lot better when you're running spreading seas. Seas makes them keep playing lands past 3, if they need certain colors. Additionally, you can't color screw someone with ghost quarters very well, so seas + tectonic edge let you keep someone off a color or two.
Its good if you can reasonably expect it to fog enough creatures.
Many of us, myself included, do not play it.
I'd never play temple of enlightenment. I think its really bad. Some people do play it. It is going to be the worst land in the deck, though.
I would rather play another glacial fortress/seachrome coast/mystic gate/prairie stream/whatever.
I don't play elspeth main. I'd say more people don't than do. But its not that bad. Big gideon's synergy with little gideon's ult is pretty sweet, and costing one less mana is pretty significant.
TBH, both are reasonably interchangable though.
I really like mystic gate as a card, but it is in no way required.
Leak isn't necessary. That being said, if you want to keep 2 or 3 logic knots live, you'll need at least 6 fetchlands in addition to 4 serum visions. It will make your mana more painful, but the tradeoff of having real cards in the late game is potentially worth it.
I would highly recommend this build if you expect a lot of slow decks, as well as verdict-or-die decks that you can't afford to be punished by lands like glacial fortress entering tapped sometimes.
I like irrigated farmland more than temple as well. If you only play 24 lands, I'd probably not play either, but as a 25th or 26th land, farmland is pretty decent. It also has some decent synergy with crucible, letting you cycle it early and play it from the yard late.
@Dopespot - I find it interesting that you are finding Rev bad against aggro decks and good against control decks. I find it medium against aggressive decks (great when you draw it after stabilizing, horrid if you find it in the first 5 turns) and bad against control. I can just never find the spot to resolve it, especially post board.
I also just want to point out that I'm not necessarily saying that 4th verdict should always be played before 1st revelation. Just that Verdict is one of the best cards in the deck and Rev is likely the worst - Bloodyrabbit makes a good point about needing a critical number of high impact spells in the deck, so it's likely that role needs to be filled if we cut Rev before finding space for verdict #4. For example, I think your thoughts on Crucible of worlds could certainly fill that role in the main better than Rev. It's a card advantage engine, fairly easy to resolve, great against our bad matches decent in our good matches, hard to interact with and likely to win the game. It's also a lot easier to detect when it is bad, so it's easy to take out after g1. This is not the case with Rev. Rev always feels middle of the road, I'm not sure I've actually ever cut it after g1 to be honest, despite being fairly convinced that it's bad against blue decks and middling at best against most all else.
I think the temple of enlightenment is actually good, even though I used to think it was terrible. I guess there are a few situations where it can screw you, but I'm a little more weary of the Mystic Gate right now, it can be really awkward at times.
I've been testing online with 2 different lists (basically one with walls and one without and a couple different lands) too early to tell and I haven't been doing leagues so I've faced some weird decks. This UB mill deck is an auto loss if you don't resolve GOTT and auto win if you do. Also haven't tried surgical yet since I'm waiting to get my paper copies of it... I remember getting them at $5 like a year ago
I'm starting to think the wall version is just better since they have been relevant blockers a fair amount of times in just a small sample of games. Either way I do like the 3rd snapcaster.
@Bloodyrabbit - Yea, I think I would want to move to at least 2 Ghost Quarter if running Crucible main. I'm not a huge fan of GQ, but the ability to be able to hit their last 3 lands seems crucial. I'm still not sold that Crucible isn't a decent replacement for Rev though. I think it's way better before turn 7. From turn 7 to like 12 they are probably going to gain you the same amount of value over the course of the game, and at turn 13+Rev is probably a fair bit better because of how much instant value you get. Though I'm fairly certain crucible wins the game there as well considering it rebuys win conditions, it just isn't likely to prompt a concession, which I think is worth considering due to time constraints, at least in paper magic.
I know I'll get hammered for suggesting this and called names by others - but I prefer room for cards like the 4th Verdict (how many times is it draw or dig for Verdict or die), V. Clique and/or Secure the Wastes in the 60.
With Glacial Fortress and Colonnades - im maxed out on tap lands - farmland and temple seem like a great way to mana screw yourself early and get stranded with uncastable cards - I cut them many weeks ago but im on 25 lands - maybe as a 26th land if you want that many lands.
Never fell behind in any games, and went undefeated against Death's Shadow, Affinity and Tron variants. Spreading seas was an MVP most of the times, I either slowed decks way down or screwed them completely. I had a game where I took DS completely off black mana, and a Tron game where they only had blue mana out under their own chalice on 1 and I Gideon'ed them to death.
Sphinx's Rev was another MVP, it dug just deep enough on 2-3 to find me answers in close games, and during my 5-0 I had a pretty tough matchup with Jund but I eeked out the card advantage while Liliana's discard was on the stack, pitched a basic and found a detention sphere.
No matchup felt that hard, but Jund was probably the closest one of all 15 matchups.
Don't worry about getting called names by others. People name-calling on a discussion board of peers using the same strategy is the dumbest thing one can do. It means they are not only close minded, but also not contributing in any meaningful way and are actually just leeching off the hard work and thought-experiments of others. Any attacks on anything other than your arguments are pointless and can just be disregarded.
That said, I haven't had any issues with 5 tap lands (I don't really consider fortress a tapland) with #5 being the farmland. Ive also watched an unconscionable amount of u/w streams and most of them run 6 tapland (1 farmland and 1 temple) and i honestly can't recall a single time where having a etb tapped land cost them the game or even caused more than a minor nuisance. If you haven't tried it, I strongly recommend giving farmland a shot, it's been awesome as a 1-of and has the added bonus of turning on fortress and being an additional fetchable dual. Actually, I feel the manabase is so good that I've been wanting to get around to discussing the merit of including a 5th colourless utility land, but have been too busy with the Rev discussion so far.
Secure the wastes is an interesting one. I like that it scales well from early to late and can be hit with snappy. I mean, except for in the mirror, top-deck Secure is probably just as deadly as top deck Rev in the late game with the added bonus of being a reasonable play for 3 or 4 mana against aggressive strategies. Could be worth a shot over Rev, imo.
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That must be the case. Because to my eye, if you're seeing it in 35% of games it can't be that necessary. What is necessary for example is having access to triple blue for cryptic, or hitting land drop number 4 for verdict, which is why we aim for 85%+ probabilities (rather than 35). And why we run 19+ blue sources instead of 3 and 26 land rather than 4.
I would say most games are decided long before we see 35 cards. I think if you say that you see (let alone cast, let alone cast for x=>2) Rev in more than 50% of your games against non-control decks you are either not keeping track, experiencing confirmation bias or are being disingenuous.
I don't get this, with snappy you can cast this card over 3 times in one game but sometimes you don't have the answer readily available and Rev lets you dig. Maybe having a 4th verdict in the SB if your meta calls for it, or you can cut something else MB but Rev does WORK in this deck.
1-of Gideon Jura - not necessary. Which is why you see plenty of people opting to cut it for Elspeth or other cards. There are arguments for 1-of cards, no one is going to say otherwise. That doesn't detract from the fact that Revelation is the worst card in the deck and not necessary. My argument is that Verdict is quite often the best card in the deck and would save a SB slot by moving number 4 to the main. To me, the most logical cut is the worst card in the deck.
This is a good argument for it's inclusion. Still not necessary, because if we consider it a 3rd win condition it could be replaced by another win condition. But yea, this makes a lot of sense.
One of the cards has to be the weakest in the deck, which do you suppose it is?
Actually Yea, won't find any arguments from me there, I never ran that card. I guess I should have specified, worst non-land card.
I've played a lot of esper draw-go and am jumping on to UW now mostly because I think spreading seas has a lot to offer, and I like gideon of the trials. My local meta is heavy on all variations of tron and burn - so also having jace and gideon working to suppress burn sounds good to me.
I've read the past few pages but as you can imagine can't really read the whole thread so if anyone can indulge me here I have a couple questions on the builds I see:
1) Tectonic Edge vs Ghost Quarter (list I'm on has 4 tec edge 0 GQ, but I've seen 2/2 splits as well) - what's the idea between one and the other? I hadnt seen tec edge in forever until it appeared here.
2) wall of omens - what would make you play this vs not play it? just generic aggro decks? is it a coin flip if you're expecting burn/tron?
3) temple of englightenment - I see above posts saying its worst card in deck. Is it worth the one-of or just don't bother?
4) Elspeth suns champion main - why/why not? (otherwise 2 gideon of trials, 1 gideon jura, 2 jace aot seem standard). Is she better in board than MD?
Again coming from draw-go where we interact if necessary and draw if not, which seems very different from the idea of "**** it, just tap out for a planeswalker or a spreading seas and we'll sort the mess out later". Draw-go background does make me very sour on playing mana leak with path to exile so I will avoid sleeving leak in this deck for as long as possible ;p
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Wall of Omens isn't really a meta thing, it's more of a strategy thing. The reason to play U/W is supreme verdict, and wall of Omens plays nicely into that game plan by making opponents over-extend into it. It's never a dead card, and is often a crucial play before dropping a planeswalker. I often find myself not blocking with wall because I want to protect a Gideon the following turn. Sure it's sub-par against decks that don't attack, but it's not dead and gives you a Target for your paths.
Temple is a way to mitigate flood a little when we play 25-26 land. I personally advocate Irrigated Farmland instead as it at least turns on Glacial Fortress.
I don't really have a lot of say about Elspeth. Ive never thrown it in the main or side, but it seems like a popular choice in the SB but the exact reasoning alludes me.
I haven't been a fan of Sphinx Rev in the past but I feel that the singleton that most of us play now is well worth the slot considering we'll ideally go to the long-game every game. If you need to SB out cards to fit in more cards to survive the early game against aggro and fast decks, then SB Rev out. It seems really simple to me.
I don't think the fourth Verdict in the MD is the correct call for the reason I made above regarding cantrips: I usually see one of my 3 Verdicts in time to cast it against the decks that I actually want it against, and I absolutely don't want Verdict against matchups that I'm actually worried about, such as any sort of combo. Another way of putting it would be: I don't want to draw multiple Verdicts in the first 4-5 turns against almost anything. I'd rather have the fourth in the board when I need it and know that my cantrips will allow me to see one of the 3 with consistency.
Elspeth, Sun's Champion is a card that kinda confuses me because I've kept it in my SB for months while SBing it in not very often, and still being unimpressed by it. The primary reason for this is that at 6 mana, we'll only be casting it in the long game. So against any deck were we need interaction desperately in the early game, we probably won't be siding her in. Now she's only viable against decks that aren't pressuring us early game, and she's our massive 6-mana sorcery-speed bomb. Well, against regular Tron, she's blank because she's too slow and too loo impact. Against Eldrazi Tron, her sweep mode is relevant but they play 4 Walking Ballista and they can actually put out a lot of pressure mid game to make her irrelevant. Against BGx, she's 6 freaking mana against a deck that doensn't play bombs over 4 mana and always has 3-4 Lili to ensure we don't get to play her, in addition to Lingering Souls making Elspeth look like a joke. Against other control decks like the mirror or Jeskai, you have to be out of your mind to try and resolve a 6-mana sorcery-speed planeswalker against a blue deck. Sure, she'll win the game if she hits, but she probably won't hit, and even if she does, the possibility of a D-Sphere is common.
I've been playing Chippy's idea of Crucible recently and I feel that its a much better use of the bomby SB slot than Elspeth, primarily because anytime you're SBing in Elspeth, its against decks that can't kill you immediately, and thats where walkers and cards like Crucible shine. More importantly, Crucible is much more practical to cast with a greater utility than Elspeth. Turn 4-5 Crucible against Valakut decks or Tron means that they have to end the game soon before they lose their lands. Same in the mirror, except recurring Colonades and Stands for mana is also powerful. With a card like Crucible, you're trading raw power for practicality and utility.
Speaking on utility, I also like the singleton Irrigated Farmland much more than the Temple of Enlightenment in a 25 land build. I play 1 Hallowed Fountain and 1 Farmland with the standard 4 Flooded Strand. I primarily like Farmland because if its not my first or 3rd land drop, it instead gets cycled for more action. Considering this deck can't play Horizon Canopy and doesn't have very many raw card-advantage spells, being able to trade excess lands in for more gas is a significant plus. As mentioned above me, it also turns on Glacial Fortress.
Most decks don't have all that many basics, and ghost quarters + paths + basics they naturally find usually means some of our pathes/gqs have no drawback.
Tectonic edge is a lot better when you're running spreading seas. Seas makes them keep playing lands past 3, if they need certain colors. Additionally, you can't color screw someone with ghost quarters very well, so seas + tectonic edge let you keep someone off a color or two.
Its good if you can reasonably expect it to fog enough creatures.
Many of us, myself included, do not play it.
I'd never play temple of enlightenment. I think its really bad. Some people do play it. It is going to be the worst land in the deck, though.
I would rather play another glacial fortress/seachrome coast/mystic gate/prairie stream/whatever.
I don't play elspeth main. I'd say more people don't than do. But its not that bad. Big gideon's synergy with little gideon's ult is pretty sweet, and costing one less mana is pretty significant.
TBH, both are reasonably interchangable though.
I really like mystic gate as a card, but it is in no way required.
Leak isn't necessary. That being said, if you want to keep 2 or 3 logic knots live, you'll need at least 6 fetchlands in addition to 4 serum visions. It will make your mana more painful, but the tradeoff of having real cards in the late game is potentially worth it.
I would highly recommend this build if you expect a lot of slow decks, as well as verdict-or-die decks that you can't afford to be punished by lands like glacial fortress entering tapped sometimes.
I like irrigated farmland more than temple as well. If you only play 24 lands, I'd probably not play either, but as a 25th or 26th land, farmland is pretty decent. It also has some decent synergy with crucible, letting you cycle it early and play it from the yard late.
I also just want to point out that I'm not necessarily saying that 4th verdict should always be played before 1st revelation. Just that Verdict is one of the best cards in the deck and Rev is likely the worst - Bloodyrabbit makes a good point about needing a critical number of high impact spells in the deck, so it's likely that role needs to be filled if we cut Rev before finding space for verdict #4. For example, I think your thoughts on Crucible of worlds could certainly fill that role in the main better than Rev. It's a card advantage engine, fairly easy to resolve, great against our bad matches decent in our good matches, hard to interact with and likely to win the game. It's also a lot easier to detect when it is bad, so it's easy to take out after g1. This is not the case with Rev. Rev always feels middle of the road, I'm not sure I've actually ever cut it after g1 to be honest, despite being fairly convinced that it's bad against blue decks and middling at best against most all else.
I've been testing online with 2 different lists (basically one with walls and one without and a couple different lands) too early to tell and I haven't been doing leagues so I've faced some weird decks. This UB mill deck is an auto loss if you don't resolve GOTT and auto win if you do. Also haven't tried surgical yet since I'm waiting to get my paper copies of it... I remember getting them at $5 like a year ago
Deck without walls:
4x Celestial Colonnade
4x Flooded Strand
2x Ghost Quarter
2x Glacial Fortress
1x Hallowed Fountain
5x Island
1x Mystic Gate
3x Plains
2x Tectonic Edge
1x Temple of Enlightenment
Sorcery (7)
4x Serum Visions
3x Supreme Verdict
Creature (3)
3x Snapcaster Mage
3x Cryptic Command
1x Disallow
1x Logic Knot
2x Mana Leak
1x Negate
4x Path to Exile
1x Sphinx's Revelation
1x Think Twice
Planeswalker (5)
1x Gideon Jura
2x Gideon of the Trials
2x Jace, Architect of Thought
Enchantment (6)
2x Detention Sphere
4x Spreading Seas
1x Condemn
1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Dispel
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1x Geist of Saint Traft
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Negate
2x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Timely Reinforcements
1x Vendilion Clique
and deck with walls:
4x Celestial Colonnade
4x Flooded Strand
2x Ghost Quarter
3x Glacial Fortress
2x Hallowed Fountain
5x Island
2x Plains
2x Tectonic Edge
1x Temple of Enlightenment
Sorcery (7)
4x Serum Visions
3x Supreme Verdict
Creature (5)
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Wall of Omens
3x Cryptic Command
1x Logic Knot
2x Mana Leak
1x Negate
4x Path to Exile
1x Sphinx's Revelation
1x Think Twice
Planeswalker (4)
1x Gideon Jura
2x Gideon of the Trials
1x Jace, Architect of Thought
Enchantment (6)
2x Detention Sphere
4x Spreading Seas
1x Condemn
1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Dispel
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1x Geist of Saint Traft
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Negate
2x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Timely Reinforcements
1x Vendilion Clique
I'm starting to think the wall version is just better since they have been relevant blockers a fair amount of times in just a small sample of games. Either way I do like the 3rd snapcaster.
With Glacial Fortress and Colonnades - im maxed out on tap lands - farmland and temple seem like a great way to mana screw yourself early and get stranded with uncastable cards - I cut them many weeks ago but im on 25 lands - maybe as a 26th land if you want that many lands.
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/724813#online
Never fell behind in any games, and went undefeated against Death's Shadow, Affinity and Tron variants. Spreading seas was an MVP most of the times, I either slowed decks way down or screwed them completely. I had a game where I took DS completely off black mana, and a Tron game where they only had blue mana out under their own chalice on 1 and I Gideon'ed them to death.
Sphinx's Rev was another MVP, it dug just deep enough on 2-3 to find me answers in close games, and during my 5-0 I had a pretty tough matchup with Jund but I eeked out the card advantage while Liliana's discard was on the stack, pitched a basic and found a detention sphere.
No matchup felt that hard, but Jund was probably the closest one of all 15 matchups.
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
That said, I haven't had any issues with 5 tap lands (I don't really consider fortress a tapland) with #5 being the farmland. Ive also watched an unconscionable amount of u/w streams and most of them run 6 tapland (1 farmland and 1 temple) and i honestly can't recall a single time where having a etb tapped land cost them the game or even caused more than a minor nuisance. If you haven't tried it, I strongly recommend giving farmland a shot, it's been awesome as a 1-of and has the added bonus of turning on fortress and being an additional fetchable dual. Actually, I feel the manabase is so good that I've been wanting to get around to discussing the merit of including a 5th colourless utility land, but have been too busy with the Rev discussion so far.
Secure the wastes is an interesting one. I like that it scales well from early to late and can be hit with snappy. I mean, except for in the mirror, top-deck Secure is probably just as deadly as top deck Rev in the late game with the added bonus of being a reasonable play for 3 or 4 mana against aggressive strategies. Could be worth a shot over Rev, imo.