I'm currently running 3x Kataki War's Wage over Stony Silence. I think it is superior in the Affinity matchup in a vacuum (which is fairly obvious - although getting it blasted is bad), however, the real bonus of Kataki over Stony is that often Stony's would shut off my Explosives leaving me with a game-losing non-bo.
Although Kataki is stronger against Affinity it is very narrow. Stony is good against Ad Nasueum (although I have 4x Chalice for this matchup) and RG Tron (Chalice is ok here but often Expedition Map comes down before I can play Chalice and they get Tron anyway). What do ppl think about Stony Silence vs RG Tron - is it impactful enough to consider going back to Stony Silence?
I understand that Kataki does virtually nothing in the RG Tron matchup.
However, are you finding Stony Silence impactful enough against RG Tron? I'm trying to gauge if its worth losing points to Affinity to improve the RG Tron matchup by replacing my Kataki's with Stony Silence..I'm guessing if you can jam Stony early enough it will cut them off map, egg, O-stone activations - however I haven't done enough personal testing to know if this happens consistently enough..
I'm assuming that I might have to go back to Stony as my RG Tron win percentage isnt where i'd like it to be..will do more testing..However, the Affinity match-up is super close and feels unfavoured - so im reluctant to give up any points by taking out Kataki's..
As someone who plays affinity I can tell you stony silence is far better than kataki. There are so many outs to kataki - whipflare, galv blast, dismember, sac board to ravager to inkmoth nexus. Once you land a stony there's pretty much only one line of play.
As someone who plays affinity I can tell you stony silence is far better than kataki. There are so many outs to kataki - whipflare, galv blast, dismember, sac board to ravager to inkmoth nexus. Once you land a stony there's pretty much only one line of play.
Are you bringing in whipflare against Eldrazi - doesn't seem that good? I'm not sure i'm worried about the Affinity player sacking everything to Ravager - but yeah galvanic blast (which only works if you have coloured mana available and blast in basically your opening hand) and dismember give you 5 outs - which isn't optimal.
It feels like you have more outs to Stony Silence in comparison to Kataki IMO - but i'm def open to the fact that i'm wrong about this. Many times i've had Stony Silence out and signal pests and/or something with plating is already doing its thing. Further to this aether grid has won through Stony. Even more frustrating is holding/drawing EE after playing Stony and watching yourself die to something that could have been exploded. If Kataki survives past the first upkeep the game is effectively won. Perhaps you disagree?
Garruk Wildspeaker. Currently testing this dude as 1-of mainboard. All of his modes are generally relevant at all stages of the game. His +1 can be insane with a temple on board. He can effectively cost net 1 or 0 mana, giving huge tempo. With a christmasland draw, you can cast him on Turn 3, untap 2 temples, cast TKS, threaten ult for 10+ trample on turn 4. In another christmasland situation, you can cast him T3, +1, play displacer; on T4, drowner, +1, have mana for 1 displacer activation up. Even outside these draws, he fixes your mana sometimes - even if you don't have a dork or temple, you can cast him turn 4 and still be able to cast drowner next turn. His -1 is for value. His -4 ult can sometimes just win you the game in board stalls, giving you crucial "evasion" in the form of trample.
Moorland haunt. A little iffy in terms of what land you cut and still have a stable mana base, but 1/1 flyers are understimated. Gives you reach, consistent board development, blockers. Synergizes with Garruk - a late game Moorland and Garruk gives you half a lingering souls every turn for as long as your graveyard can fuel it.
Leonin arbiter in the sideboard. This guy does WORK in my initial testing (4-0 at FNM, giving me 2 crucial wins). Bring it in against valakut decks; any fetch-heavy, removal-light deck; chord decks. Can slow a lot of aggro decks down by a turn or two. Is possibly the strongest turn 2 play we can do against RG breach or scapeshift. They still have outs (mainly bolt). Playing a turn 1 dork also intrinsically plays around bolt, as they're forced to bolt the dork, and you're still able to cast Leonin on T2. But if they don't have the bolt, your clock is fast enough to race, and if they have an anger, they'll often have to have paid the tax and THEN wasted an entire turn casting the anger. At the worst, it's a bear that fits your curve when you just need more creatures.
Runed halo in the sideboard. My only concern with this card is WW cost. Otherwise, it's great anti-valakut deck. Also acts as removal in decks that rely on few threats (e.g. infect, delver).
My experience... Garruk is nice, he's good and relevant. Runed Halo however, I can pass on. If you are concerned about scapeshift, then Leyline of Sanctity is by far a better choice. It stops Thoughtsieze, slows the burn game, and good against mill and other strategies of the like. It even handles itself against the mirror match. I can attest to a 5-0 win the other week running 3 in my side. Of course, I also like Rest in Peace for any GY based deck.
Sword is effective, as I continually face black/white decks with Paths reserved for Eldrazi Displacer. It also allows me to get back creatures I lose to LotV and such and allows me to push through damage and gain life against burn.
Sacred Ground is also in because 30% of the field runs land Destruction and that's been a problem in the past.
Disenchant, because nobody expects Disenchant. It hits vials, O Stone, and Blood Moon. It's almost always relevant in most every game I play, including the times when I'm facing off against infect...
Sometimes I think I should have a third EE and drop Sword. Dunno.................................................................
As someone who plays affinity I can tell you stony silence is far better than kataki. There are so many outs to kataki - whipflare, galv blast, dismember, sac board to ravager to inkmoth nexus. Once you land a stony there's pretty much only one line of play.
Are you bringing in whipflare against Eldrazi - doesn't seem that good? I'm not sure i'm worried about the Affinity player sacking everything to Ravager - but yeah galvanic blast (which only works if you have coloured mana available and blast in basically your opening hand) and dismember give you 5 outs - which isn't optimal.
It feels like you have more outs to Stony Silence in comparison to Kataki IMO - but i'm def open to the fact that i'm wrong about this. Many times i've had Stony Silence out and signal pests and/or something with plating is already doing its thing. Further to this aether grid has won through Stony. Even more frustrating is holding/drawing EE after playing Stony and watching yourself die to something that could have been exploded. If Kataki survives past the first upkeep the game is effectively won. Perhaps you disagree?
I'll just say that playing against a stony silence usually feels like "I lose" and playing against Kataki usually feels like "I can still get out of this". Personally, I have won many more games against Kataki than Stony. Like I said, one solid gameplan vs Kataki is just saccing everything to a ravager and then to inkmoth (or blinkmoth). That's still often a 2-turn clock, and if you don't have path or displacer you just die. Aether grid is also WAY too slow against eldrazi and I personally wouldn't side it in against eldrazi even knowing that you have stony. You aren't going to be able to kill much more than a displacer by the time your face is being bashed in with TKS/smasher/drowner.
And yes, some affinity players do bring in whipflare. It's not great, but it's relevant if the eldrazi player is not timing the displacer/drowner combo correctly (it should be done right before moving to combat, not during 1st mainphase).
Tron player transitioning into Bant Eldrazi here. YES, sometimes stony silence just does nothing against Tron because it goes sylvan scrying into tron piece, Karn, **** your permanents. BUT since most of our creatures are colorless, Ugin doesn't wipe the board as effectively and with stony silence, that effectively takes care of all of their relevant removal (except karn) and shuts off a large chunk of the deck.
Run stony silence and pressure the board - win.
Tron player transitioning into Bant Eldrazi here. YES, sometimes stony silence just does nothing against Tron because it goes sylvan scrying into tron piece, Karn, **** your permanents. BUT since most of our creatures are colorless, Ugin doesn't wipe the board as effectively and with stony silence, that effectively takes care of all of their relevant removal (except karn) and shuts off a large chunk of the deck.
Run stony silence and pressure the board - win.
Heh... I got on the Eldrazi train when Modern was a thing... I still play Tron and I will always play Tron. Stony Silence does minimal damage to a proper Tron deck because there's at least 10 different ways to deal with the card in the mainboard alone. Playing Bant Drazi because I can... Was playing the colorless version and I still see those stupid explosive turn 2 plays.... But...
I'm thinking of one of the dumbest cards to grace Kaladesh... Panharmonicon. Went 4-0 with a standard Eldrazi U/W deck when I had Displacer, TKS, Drowner, and Pan in play at once to deck my opponent. Hmmmmmm..... Panharmonicon here? Maybe not as a 4 of... But it does some truly terrifying things with all of our ETB cards. Dunno, will experiment and report the results. It's just too fun to ignore.
If you have chalice in board, what do ppl generally take out for it in g2/3? Do all the nobles and stirrings come out?
The primary reason I play Chalice is to beat Infect. Against Infect and most matchups there will be substantial non-bo's with many of your 1 drops and in most cases I dont really try to avoid this as often you may not draw chalice and your 1 cmc cards remain valuable in those matchups. You may like to name 'human' on a cavern to mitigate some of the problems with your 1 drops and the chalice non-bo. I usually cut Birds of Paradise when I bring Chalice but that's generally it.
In many cases you will often be able to play out a Noble or Stirrings or Path (for Glistner Elf against infect) before you play Chalice. Yes - you will have cards stuck in your hand - however Chalice on 1 against the decks you bring it in against is worth it as it effects them much more then it effects you..
Other matchups I bring in Chalice for are (Always on 1 except where noted below):
Sui Zoo
Small Zoo
Burn - Any multiples go for X=2 and they are completely locked out!
Affinity (Only on the play and on X=0 - multiples drawn later can be put on X=2 if you live that long)
Bogles
Ad Nauseum - generally X=1 for angel's grace and all canttips; X=0 for Lotus Blooms
RG Tron
Pyromancer Ascension decks
UR delver/prowess
UWx - You can cut all paths and several dorks in this match-up (I keep in stirrings as it's too good) - Taking them off Path, Bolt and Visions is huge. You may also put multiples on X=2 to stop snaps, counters; X=0 to stop Ancestral Vision and I have even had the chance to put it on X=4 in games that go long to stop cryptic, verdict, nahiri.
Mardu Control
Soul Sisters
8-Rack
Living End - X=0 for Living End
Restore Balance - X=0 for restore balance
Azusa Amulet - X=1 for Amulet,Sakura tribe Scout and tons of other things; X=0 for Pacts is also worthwhile
Elves - The often have cavern and play many non-1cmc cards - so im not sure if this is good or not - this match-up is terrible anyway..
Note that as long as you have displacer the kiki combo doesn't fully work. You can displace kiki in response to the resto trigger, making a new tapped instance of kiki.
Same goes for... Bolting Kiki in response to the tap to create... Your spell resolves first, killing Kikki. By the time the Resto angel hits the table Kikki is in the grave and long dead.
He taps kiki-jiki to activate his ability, which puts his ability on the stack immediately. In response, i cast murder which destroys kiki-jiki. then, after Murder resolves, kiki-jiki's ability resolves since it is still on the stack. if he targeted restoration angel, then a token copy comes in BUT kiki-jiki isn't on the field anymore and thus cant be targeted by restoration angel's triggered ability. So it does still kill the combo but the activated effect still plays.
He taps Kiki, you Path Resto, which counter's Kiki's ability. He taps Kiki, you path Kiki, Resto hits the field but Kiki is long gone.
He taps Kiki, you put Displacer on the stack, Resto triggers blinking Kiki, Displacer triggers, blinking Kiki, but the resto hits... infinite combo.
You fizzle a Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker activation by blinking its target and only on the initial target where there is no other resto on the field. At least I believe so.. Will have to get a ruling on this from a judge, but I never feared Kiki, I always had a path in hand to deal with Kiki or Resto, or one or the other while they were on the field at the same time.
Now my brain is breaking.... eldrazi displacer... kiki, resto... hmm... ummm.... Nope... Don't think it works... It really has to deal with how stacking is involved. who you target, and when. Kiki? Hmmm... Does he enter play after or before the resto token or original resolves? If the stack works.... And you somehow blink the Kiki and Resto trigger resolves while Kiki is blinked out by Displacer, he re enters play tapped. You cannot blink Resto with Displacer.... You have to smack Kiki across the face.
Kiki is a slow combo deck. How to beat it? Grafdigger's Cage, Pithing Needle, Path to Exile, TKS... I find it a favorable match up.
EE or stony silence and quick beat downs is how I beat lantern control. If it's a big issue in your meta pithing needle and some version of artifact hate is easy to add.
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Standard: Gave it up
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
It does work.
Kiki taps targeting resto, that enters again and targets kiki. Now you activate displacer targeting kiki in response countering resto's ability. And kiki is tapped.
EE or stony silence and quick beat downs is how I beat lantern control. If it's a big issue in your meta pithing needle and some version of artifact hate is easy to add.
You can also make the tks+displacer combo making him draw lands to get under bridge. Of course EE and stony is a much cleaner solution.
It does work.
Kiki taps targeting resto, that enters again and targets kiki. Now you activate displacer targeting kiki in response countering resto's ability. And kiki is tapped.
Try this in a Competitive REL tournament and see how you go!
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Modern
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
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Although Kataki is stronger against Affinity it is very narrow. Stony is good against Ad Nasueum (although I have 4x Chalice for this matchup) and RG Tron (Chalice is ok here but often Expedition Map comes down before I can play Chalice and they get Tron anyway). What do ppl think about Stony Silence vs RG Tron - is it impactful enough to consider going back to Stony Silence?
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
However, are you finding Stony Silence impactful enough against RG Tron? I'm trying to gauge if its worth losing points to Affinity to improve the RG Tron matchup by replacing my Kataki's with Stony Silence..I'm guessing if you can jam Stony early enough it will cut them off map, egg, O-stone activations - however I haven't done enough personal testing to know if this happens consistently enough..
I'm assuming that I might have to go back to Stony as my RG Tron win percentage isnt where i'd like it to be..will do more testing..However, the Affinity match-up is super close and feels unfavoured - so im reluctant to give up any points by taking out Kataki's..
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
Are you bringing in whipflare against Eldrazi - doesn't seem that good? I'm not sure i'm worried about the Affinity player sacking everything to Ravager - but yeah galvanic blast (which only works if you have coloured mana available and blast in basically your opening hand) and dismember give you 5 outs - which isn't optimal.
It feels like you have more outs to Stony Silence in comparison to Kataki IMO - but i'm def open to the fact that i'm wrong about this. Many times i've had Stony Silence out and signal pests and/or something with plating is already doing its thing. Further to this aether grid has won through Stony. Even more frustrating is holding/drawing EE after playing Stony and watching yourself die to something that could have been exploded. If Kataki survives past the first upkeep the game is effectively won. Perhaps you disagree?
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
My experience... Garruk is nice, he's good and relevant. Runed Halo however, I can pass on. If you are concerned about scapeshift, then Leyline of Sanctity is by far a better choice. It stops Thoughtsieze, slows the burn game, and good against mill and other strategies of the like. It even handles itself against the mirror match. I can attest to a 5-0 win the other week running 3 in my side. Of course, I also like Rest in Peace for any GY based deck.
My sideboard looks like this:
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Spellskite
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Sacred Ground
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Disenchant
Chalices are in MB, and so is a singleton EE
Sword is effective, as I continually face black/white decks with Paths reserved for Eldrazi Displacer. It also allows me to get back creatures I lose to LotV and such and allows me to push through damage and gain life against burn.
Sacred Ground is also in because 30% of the field runs land Destruction and that's been a problem in the past.
Disenchant, because nobody expects Disenchant. It hits vials, O Stone, and Blood Moon. It's almost always relevant in most every game I play, including the times when I'm facing off against infect...
Sometimes I think I should have a third EE and drop Sword. Dunno.................................................................
I'll just say that playing against a stony silence usually feels like "I lose" and playing against Kataki usually feels like "I can still get out of this". Personally, I have won many more games against Kataki than Stony. Like I said, one solid gameplan vs Kataki is just saccing everything to a ravager and then to inkmoth (or blinkmoth). That's still often a 2-turn clock, and if you don't have path or displacer you just die. Aether grid is also WAY too slow against eldrazi and I personally wouldn't side it in against eldrazi even knowing that you have stony. You aren't going to be able to kill much more than a displacer by the time your face is being bashed in with TKS/smasher/drowner.
And yes, some affinity players do bring in whipflare. It's not great, but it's relevant if the eldrazi player is not timing the displacer/drowner combo correctly (it should be done right before moving to combat, not during 1st mainphase).
Run stony silence and pressure the board - win.
Heh... I got on the Eldrazi train when Modern was a thing... I still play Tron and I will always play Tron. Stony Silence does minimal damage to a proper Tron deck because there's at least 10 different ways to deal with the card in the mainboard alone. Playing Bant Drazi because I can... Was playing the colorless version and I still see those stupid explosive turn 2 plays.... But...
I'm thinking of one of the dumbest cards to grace Kaladesh... Panharmonicon. Went 4-0 with a standard Eldrazi U/W deck when I had Displacer, TKS, Drowner, and Pan in play at once to deck my opponent. Hmmmmmm..... Panharmonicon here? Maybe not as a 4 of... But it does some truly terrifying things with all of our ETB cards. Dunno, will experiment and report the results. It's just too fun to ignore.
The primary reason I play Chalice is to beat Infect. Against Infect and most matchups there will be substantial non-bo's with many of your 1 drops and in most cases I dont really try to avoid this as often you may not draw chalice and your 1 cmc cards remain valuable in those matchups. You may like to name 'human' on a cavern to mitigate some of the problems with your 1 drops and the chalice non-bo. I usually cut Birds of Paradise when I bring Chalice but that's generally it.
In many cases you will often be able to play out a Noble or Stirrings or Path (for Glistner Elf against infect) before you play Chalice. Yes - you will have cards stuck in your hand - however Chalice on 1 against the decks you bring it in against is worth it as it effects them much more then it effects you..
Other matchups I bring in Chalice for are (Always on 1 except where noted below):
Sui Zoo
Small Zoo
Burn - Any multiples go for X=2 and they are completely locked out!
Affinity (Only on the play and on X=0 - multiples drawn later can be put on X=2 if you live that long)
Bogles
Ad Nauseum - generally X=1 for angel's grace and all canttips; X=0 for Lotus Blooms
RG Tron
Pyromancer Ascension decks
UR delver/prowess
UWx - You can cut all paths and several dorks in this match-up (I keep in stirrings as it's too good) - Taking them off Path, Bolt and Visions is huge. You may also put multiples on X=2 to stop snaps, counters; X=0 to stop Ancestral Vision and I have even had the chance to put it on X=4 in games that go long to stop cryptic, verdict, nahiri.
Mardu Control
Soul Sisters
8-Rack
Living End - X=0 for Living End
Restore Balance - X=0 for restore balance
Azusa Amulet - X=1 for Amulet,Sakura tribe Scout and tons of other things; X=0 for Pacts is also worthwhile
Elves - The often have cavern and play many non-1cmc cards - so im not sure if this is good or not - this match-up is terrible anyway..
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
It's complicated...
Same goes for... Bolting Kiki in response to the tap to create... Your spell resolves first, killing Kikki. By the time the Resto angel hits the table Kikki is in the grave and long dead.
He taps kiki-jiki to activate his ability, which puts his ability on the stack immediately. In response, i cast murder which destroys kiki-jiki. then, after Murder resolves, kiki-jiki's ability resolves since it is still on the stack. if he targeted restoration angel, then a token copy comes in BUT kiki-jiki isn't on the field anymore and thus cant be targeted by restoration angel's triggered ability. So it does still kill the combo but the activated effect still plays.
He taps Kiki, you Path Resto, which counter's Kiki's ability. He taps Kiki, you path Kiki, Resto hits the field but Kiki is long gone.
He taps Kiki, you put Displacer on the stack, Resto triggers blinking Kiki, Displacer triggers, blinking Kiki, but the resto hits... infinite combo.
You fizzle a Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker activation by blinking its target and only on the initial target where there is no other resto on the field. At least I believe so.. Will have to get a ruling on this from a judge, but I never feared Kiki, I always had a path in hand to deal with Kiki or Resto, or one or the other while they were on the field at the same time.
Now my brain is breaking.... eldrazi displacer... kiki, resto... hmm... ummm.... Nope... Don't think it works... It really has to deal with how stacking is involved. who you target, and when. Kiki? Hmmm... Does he enter play after or before the resto token or original resolves? If the stack works.... And you somehow blink the Kiki and Resto trigger resolves while Kiki is blinked out by Displacer, he re enters play tapped. You cannot blink Resto with Displacer.... You have to smack Kiki across the face.
Kiki is a slow combo deck. How to beat it? Grafdigger's Cage, Pithing Needle, Path to Exile, TKS... I find it a favorable match up.
U B Faeries
U B Mill
G W B Bant Eldrazi
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
Kiki taps targeting resto, that enters again and targets kiki. Now you activate displacer targeting kiki in response countering resto's ability. And kiki is tapped.
You can also make the tks+displacer combo making him draw lands to get under bridge. Of course EE and stony is a much cleaner solution.
Try this in a Competitive REL tournament and see how you go!
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver