To any new or old Burn player different opinions/views/deck/play style/cards/thoughts/etc are welcome here. Just because a card/version of Burn won or lost in a event does not mean you have to use it but you are free to discuss it without attacking, harassing, putting down and making another feel uncomfortable or having someone do this to you. Please block/report/ignore those who may be doing so.
Eidolon has been a Burn staple for a long time however, it did not become that on day 1 of its arrival. It earned like many cards its way through time and play testing. There was once those who hated and fought against using it. Now please dont read into or over analysis my words, Im not saying Shrine is/must be in your deck. Any new card or new way to play/use a card may go through different paths to get into a deck. Part of the fun Ive found in playing MTG is play testing. Does it always amount to success, no. Can it be frustrating at times, yes. But that can be with anything.
Magic Down Under, I have seem many of your videos and I havent agreed with all the moves/choices you make but I respect your experience, the decisions/views you have and especially the ability to put out content and deal with the scrutiny/arm chair judgements you may receive. Also as being a supportive and positive member on this forum to others even when you may not agree. I have learned from some of your good and not so good plays/choices. Thank you
I'm planning on adding a rudimentary goldfishing algorithm to the script, but it will take some time. Average mana needed is somewhat related to how many turns it will take, but you may get stuck on 2 for a few turns and that will prolong the game and the effect will be worse on a higher CMC deck. That doesn't affect how much mana you need, but does affect how quickly you reach that much mana.
But that wouldn't practically matter unless your deck needed more than 9 mana to kill, because the fastest goldfish is T4, correct?
Turn 4
Opp: Urza’s Tower, TKS attacks (I sack Mesa for a Mountain), block with Guide and Helix TKS (draw Helix), Relic into exile and draw, Endbringer.
Moi: Rift Bolt face->countered by Warping Wail. Draw Guide. Guide, attacks.
Shrine: 5
14-19
Turn 5
Opp: Endbringer draws a card, Ballista (4/4), I play Boros Charm.
Moi: draw Spike. Spike, Endbringer damages Guide, Ballista kills Guide (3/3), Helix opp.
Shrine: 9
4-25
Regarding the various options of playing cards, I believe we play Guide on turn one not simply because it causes two damage (which is less than Lava Spike), but rather due to the possibility of future damage. If unanswered for two more turns then a single mana would have contributed six damage. However, creatures can be shut out by larger creatures or simply removed, so there is considerable uncertainty as to how much damage will go through.
Therefore I am not sure why Boros Charm would be a priority in turn two over Shrine, give that Shrine is likely going to do much more than four damage during the game, and most likely will not be answered. Note additionally that the speed of damage is irrelevant any time before the opponent dies, so for instance, five damage over two turns is better than four damage in one turn if they don’t die this turn.
Finally, thanks to everyone for contributing to this forum. It is a great learning experience for me and motivates me further to explore the deck
Lots of good stuff in the article, I see both sides to the argument and both have good points. I enjoy how his perspective is trying to be open minded and delving into the possibilities. A great saying I learned is "The only limits we have are those we place on ourselves."
A few good quotes the article......
"Modern has started to introduce more big-mana decks that can ignore Eidolon of the Great Revel, and at that point it can hurt you more than the opponent."
"I have been impressed with Shrine of Burning Rage, and currently have a Burn list with three of both Eidolon of the Great Revel and Shrine of Burning Rage in the main deck, and the fourth of each card in the sideboard. Both are high-impact two-drops and you may want one or the other based on the matchup."
Turn 4
Opp: Urza’s Tower, TKS attacks (I sack Mesa for a Mountain), block with Guide and Helix TKS (draw Helix), Relic into exile and draw, Endbringer.
Moi: Rift Bolt face->countered by Warping Wail. Draw Guide. Guide, attacks.
Shrine: 5
14-19
Turn 5
Opp: Endbringer draws a card, Ballista (4/4), I play Boros Charm.
Moi: draw Spike. Spike, Endbringer damages Guide, Ballista kills Guide (3/3), Helix opp.
Shrine: 9
4-25
Regarding the various options of playing cards, I believe we play Guide on turn one not simply because it causes two damage (which is less than Lava Spike), but rather due to the possibility of future damage. If unanswered for two more turns then a single mana would have contributed six damage. However, creatures can be shut out by larger creatures or simply removed, so there is considerable uncertainty as to how much damage will go through.
Therefore I am not sure why Boros Charm would be a priority in turn two over Shrine, give that Shrine is likely going to do much more than four damage during the game, and most likely will not be answered. Note additionally that the speed of damage is irrelevant any time before the opponent dies, so for instance, five damage over two turns is better than four damage in one turn if they don’t die this turn.
Finally, thanks to everyone for contributing to this forum. It is a great learning experience for me and motivates me further to explore the deck
You play guide on t1 because t1 guide maximizes the potential damage you get out of the card. Lava spike will always be 3 unless it's countered. Every turn you delay guide, you skip out on damage. In your case, it was played when it was completely invalidated by tks and was functionally the same as a Fog. I've personally posted results from my model about this in the last week or two. My estimation is that t1 guide on the play is worth nearly 3.75-ish damage on average. T2 guide is worth 1.75 on average, and it keeps getting worse.
I said t2 Boros charm and completely ignored shrine because I was illustrating that the game was winnable without shrine and that it was your play pattern that created a situation where you could not win without shrine. A different line would have gotten your opponent to 6, had you at approximately 20, and you would have had 2 other cards in hand (presumably eidolons that would have bought you more time by blocking) and several draw steps. In your situation, you should always play shrine on t2 or you're missing out on potential damage. My point was that shrine wasn't actually essential here and you could have been in good shape without it.
80 matches in with Burn and I see I have had particular difficulties against Affinity and Titan Shift. Any tips for these match-ups please?
Against affinity, side out lava spike and charms for paths and artifact removal. You need to play control against them and judge when you're able to switch gears to being aggressive.
Against Titanshift, avoiding self damage and then gaining from Helix is very important. Think of Palm as extra Helices out of the side.
I feel like I flood more regularly than I want, or draw land when I want a kill spell (at least 3 games this weekend I had my opponent at 1 or 2 and then drew land before dying...) Is it too risky getting to 2 land total? Going to 19 allows me to squeeze a Grim Lavamancer in.
2. I cut 2x Deflecting Palm in my sideboard in favour of 2x Searing Blood. My rationale is its great against Affinity and Company decks which I see a lot of, and Palm is likely to be countered against GDS with Stubborn Denial or Snapcaster Mage + Denial.
a professional and world champion writing some positives about use sobr. wonderful 2 have the refreshing look at the topic. although not everyone happy he not support their hate of card. this show very fair look at sobr.
I feel like I flood more regularly than I want, or draw land when I want a kill spell (at least 3 games this weekend I had my opponent at 1 or 2 and then drew land before dying...) Is it too risky getting to 2 land total? Going to 19 allows me to squeeze a Grim Lavamancer in.
2. I cut 2x Deflecting Palm in my sideboard in favour of 2x Searing Blood. My rationale is its great against Affinity and Company decks which I see a lot of, and Palm is likely to be countered against GDS with Stubborn Denial or Snapcaster Mage + Denial.
I've been on 19 for ages and like being on 19. I also see that 20th land as keeping out my singleton Grim Lavamancer. If you're Boros with drev in the side, that's a perfectly fine manabase for it.
I love and hate Palm. It's a blowout sometimes and other times it's dead until your opponent stabilises and tries to beat you, while any burn spells would have already ended the game. I assume that Blood is a personal meta call, yes? If that's the case, it's perfectly reasonable. I'm not sure it's worth it in the more general meta though.
a professional and world champion writing some positives about use sobr. wonderful 2 have the refreshing look at the topic. although not everyone happy he not support their hate of card. this show very fair look at sobr.
So he advocates having a mix between Eidolon and Shrine, and maxing out on the most pertinent one for any given match? I can see that. Question is, what to trim from the mainboard to have them both at 3 copies...?
Is Shrine of Burning Rage really any better than Isochron scepter? Both are win more cards. Isochron scepter is faster to get going and cheaper to activate.
Thanks! The other troublesome deck is UW control, the one with two Gideons and Jace. This may be my least liked deck in all of MTG. Win or lose, I don't enjoy playing this deck at all.
Do you try to go under it, or do something different?
Thanks! The other troublesome deck is UW control, the one with two Gideons and Jace. This may be my least liked deck in all of MTG. Win or lose, I don't enjoy playing this deck at all.
Do you try to go under it, or do something different?
If your having trouble with UW Control add some Exquisite Firecraft to your Side Board
Is Shrine of Burning Rage really any better than Isochron scepter? Both are win more cards. Isochron scepter is faster to get going and cheaper to activate.
That's a pretty bad comparison, to be honest. Scepter is card disadvantage and is mana-intensive - that makes it a completely different card.
Is Shrine of Burning Rage really any better than Isochron scepter? Both are win more cards. Isochron scepter is faster to get going and cheaper to activate.
That's a pretty bad comparison, to be honest. Scepter is card disadvantage and is mana-intensive - that makes it a completely different card.
I don't like either card in burn they are both win more cards. Shrine doesn't impact the game when it comes into play which is a deal breaker. Cards in burn need to add value when played. There are a lot of great cards that don't see play in burn because they have no immediate impact on the game.
Is Shrine of Burning Rage really any better than Isochron scepter? Both are win more cards. Isochron scepter is faster to get going and cheaper to activate.
That's a pretty bad comparison, to be honest. Scepter is card disadvantage and is mana-intensive - that makes it a completely different card.
I don't like either card in burn they are both win more cards. Shrine doesn't impact the game when it comes into play which is a deal breaker. Cards in burn need to add value when played. There are a lot of great cards that don't see play in burn because they have no immediate impact on the game.
Think of it as an unblockable creature that dodges removal (but can't block)
The upkeep counter is it's 1 power, and the cast trigger is a form of "super prowess"
Swiftspear is only worth playing if we can trigger prowess
if we can trigger prowess then we are casting spell
If we are casting spell we are winning
Swiftspear is a win more card!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"What's your plan?" Gideon asked.
"Are you serious?" Chandra replied.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Eidolon has been a Burn staple for a long time however, it did not become that on day 1 of its arrival. It earned like many cards its way through time and play testing. There was once those who hated and fought against using it. Now please dont read into or over analysis my words, Im not saying Shrine is/must be in your deck. Any new card or new way to play/use a card may go through different paths to get into a deck. Part of the fun Ive found in playing MTG is play testing. Does it always amount to success, no. Can it be frustrating at times, yes. But that can be with anything.
Magic Down Under, I have seem many of your videos and I havent agreed with all the moves/choices you make but I respect your experience, the decisions/views you have and especially the ability to put out content and deal with the scrutiny/arm chair judgements you may receive. Also as being a supportive and positive member on this forum to others even when you may not agree. I have learned from some of your good and not so good plays/choices. Thank you
But that wouldn't practically matter unless your deck needed more than 9 mana to kill, because the fastest goldfish is T4, correct?
EDIT: Nevermind, I think that's backwards.
Mardu Burn
Monogreen Stompy
Legacy
Burn
Pauper
Dimir Flicker
Monowhite Tokens
Opening Hand
Rift Bolt, Shrine x2, Boros Charm, Arid Mesa, Vantage, Mountain
Turn 1
Opp: Eldrazi Temple.
Moi: draw Goblin Guide. Vantage, Goblin Guide (attacks).
18-20
Turn 2
Opp: Urza’s Mine.
Moi: draw Boros Charm. Mountain, Shrine, Guide attacks.
16-20
Turn 3
Opp: Urza’s Power Plant, TKS (steal Boros Charm).
Moi: draw Helix. Mesa, suspend Rift Bolt.
Shrine: 1
16-20
Turn 4
Opp: Urza’s Tower, TKS attacks (I sack Mesa for a Mountain), block with Guide and Helix TKS (draw Helix), Relic into exile and draw, Endbringer.
Moi: Rift Bolt face->countered by Warping Wail. Draw Guide. Guide, attacks.
Shrine: 5
14-19
Turn 5
Opp: Endbringer draws a card, Ballista (4/4), I play Boros Charm.
Moi: draw Spike. Spike, Endbringer damages Guide, Ballista kills Guide (3/3), Helix opp.
Shrine: 9
4-25
Regarding the various options of playing cards, I believe we play Guide on turn one not simply because it causes two damage (which is less than Lava Spike), but rather due to the possibility of future damage. If unanswered for two more turns then a single mana would have contributed six damage. However, creatures can be shut out by larger creatures or simply removed, so there is considerable uncertainty as to how much damage will go through.
Therefore I am not sure why Boros Charm would be a priority in turn two over Shrine, give that Shrine is likely going to do much more than four damage during the game, and most likely will not be answered. Note additionally that the speed of damage is irrelevant any time before the opponent dies, so for instance, five damage over two turns is better than four damage in one turn if they don’t die this turn.
Finally, thanks to everyone for contributing to this forum. It is a great learning experience for me and motivates me further to explore the deck
Enjoy Standard, Modern and Music (also some Pauper, Momir, Gaming, Animations and Legacy)? Then visit my channel:Here
Lots of good stuff in the article, I see both sides to the argument and both have good points. I enjoy how his perspective is trying to be open minded and delving into the possibilities. A great saying I learned is "The only limits we have are those we place on ourselves."
A few good quotes the article......
"Modern has started to introduce more big-mana decks that can ignore Eidolon of the Great Revel, and at that point it can hurt you more than the opponent."
"I have been impressed with Shrine of Burning Rage, and currently have a Burn list with three of both Eidolon of the Great Revel and Shrine of Burning Rage in the main deck, and the fourth of each card in the sideboard. Both are high-impact two-drops and you may want one or the other based on the matchup."
You play guide on t1 because t1 guide maximizes the potential damage you get out of the card. Lava spike will always be 3 unless it's countered. Every turn you delay guide, you skip out on damage. In your case, it was played when it was completely invalidated by tks and was functionally the same as a Fog. I've personally posted results from my model about this in the last week or two. My estimation is that t1 guide on the play is worth nearly 3.75-ish damage on average. T2 guide is worth 1.75 on average, and it keeps getting worse.
I said t2 Boros charm and completely ignored shrine because I was illustrating that the game was winnable without shrine and that it was your play pattern that created a situation where you could not win without shrine. A different line would have gotten your opponent to 6, had you at approximately 20, and you would have had 2 other cards in hand (presumably eidolons that would have bought you more time by blocking) and several draw steps. In your situation, you should always play shrine on t2 or you're missing out on potential damage. My point was that shrine wasn't actually essential here and you could have been in good shape without it.
Against affinity, side out lava spike and charms for paths and artifact removal. You need to play control against them and judge when you're able to switch gears to being aggressive.
Against Titanshift, avoiding self damage and then gaining from Helix is very important. Think of Palm as extra Helices out of the side.
20 land or 19? And if 19, 2 Sacred Foundry, 1 Stomping Ground, 3 Inspiring Vantage, 3 Mountain and the remaining 10 as fetches?
I feel like I flood more regularly than I want, or draw land when I want a kill spell (at least 3 games this weekend I had my opponent at 1 or 2 and then drew land before dying...) Is it too risky getting to 2 land total? Going to 19 allows me to squeeze a Grim Lavamancer in.
2. I cut 2x Deflecting Palm in my sideboard in favour of 2x Searing Blood. My rationale is its great against Affinity and Company decks which I see a lot of, and Palm is likely to be countered against GDS with Stubborn Denial or Snapcaster Mage + Denial.
I've been on 19 for ages and like being on 19. I also see that 20th land as keeping out my singleton Grim Lavamancer. If you're Boros with drev in the side, that's a perfectly fine manabase for it.
I love and hate Palm. It's a blowout sometimes and other times it's dead until your opponent stabilises and tries to beat you, while any burn spells would have already ended the game. I assume that Blood is a personal meta call, yes? If that's the case, it's perfectly reasonable. I'm not sure it's worth it in the more general meta though.
So he advocates having a mix between Eidolon and Shrine, and maxing out on the most pertinent one for any given match? I can see that. Question is, what to trim from the mainboard to have them both at 3 copies...?
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
But it would makes the sideboard a little cramp
"Are you serious?" Chandra replied.
Do you try to go under it, or do something different?
That's a pretty bad comparison, to be honest. Scepter is card disadvantage and is mana-intensive - that makes it a completely different card.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Think of it as an unblockable creature that dodges removal (but can't block)
The upkeep counter is it's 1 power, and the cast trigger is a form of "super prowess"
Swiftspear is only worth playing if we can trigger prowess
if we can trigger prowess then we are casting spell
If we are casting spell we are winning
Swiftspear is a win more card!
"Are you serious?" Chandra replied.