Hang on Im not hating, Im being open minded and give him his congrats from winning even though its not the deck I run or would run. more power to any who win with Burn. I would enjoy it if he came on and went through his match ups and decisions.
There's no bitterness. There's a difference between "hating" and making well reasoned arguments as to why I think a deckbuilding choice is fundamentally wrong and a mistake. I'm not one to fall for hivemind builds based on very little data, and I'm going to make well reasoned arguments in support of or against something.
Notice how my comments aren't "Shrine sucks"... "Nuh uh, Shrine sucks"... "Uhh, no, Shrine sucks" because such short comments would be useless and would add nothing to a discussion. Instead, I've repeatedly said why I think Shrine is bad. I even read Le Briand's statements about why he made the decision to play Shrine, and his statements do not make any sense whatsoever. He says it's a long game card (and it is) and then says that it's good against Affinity (fastest aggro deck in the format) Eldrazi Tron (fast big-mana deck) and GDS (disruptive deck that aims to drop a 4/5, 5/5, or 8/8, protect it, and punch you in the face a couple times until you die). Late game cards are not at all what you want against fast decks. By all means, play Shrine against Lantern if you want, because it's going to be 10+ damage as long as they don't play a Leyline of Sanctity. There's just no such thing as the "late game" against fast decks.
With the release of the first 50 or so spoilers from Ixalan there is a life gain Instant that we all need to worry about; quick run and hide.......not really its not currently that strong. Yes someone could infinite mana it but remember we thank Gatecrash for Skullcrack every time we drop it. Also I dont think it will see play in Modern. And thank you to all who did ditch their Burn decks when Oketra's Last Mercy came out.
On that note Id like to say it'd be nice to get more tools for Burn, main or side is fine
I decided to try out the Shrine...I play in the Modern Friendly leagues on MTGO. Prior to this I had played 60 matches with Burn, with a 50.0% win rate. Of the 10 matches I have played with the Shrine so far, I have won 7 for a 70.0% win rate. I shall keep playing on and see how it goes.
It definitely won me some games- there was one game for example where I had the opponent down to 4 life, but he sprang back up to 8, and then a Shrine on 8 finished him off. It seems excellent whenever our main plan doesn't work out perfectly, for example when we start top-decking unnecessary lands in the mid-game.
With the Eidolon (who has my favorite artwork in all of MTG), he also dominated and won me some matches, such as against UR Gifts Storm. However, in certain other matches he just got removed immediately for 2 damage to the opponent, or was not relevant at all since their spells were bigger.
It seems to me so far like the choice depends on the meta you are in, as well as the degree of variance you want to entertain. Having said that, I intend to play on to the 100th overall match to see how I perceive them thereafter.
winning a big GP is something great, i would be proud 2 win. u can agree or make excuses why it not good pass but win is win. i not try his deck but he walk away head held high. no 1 can take away the college degree when u earn it and no 1 take away his win even if not agree with deck.
To elaborate further, we usually think of the various spells in terms of cost:damage efficiency. However, there can come situations where we are short on cards in hand, and are therefore limited as to how much damage we can inflict. In these situations the Shrine is excellent at providing additional reach, as it does a massive amount of damage from a single card. Such situations are more likely where we have drawn more lands than we need to empty our hand of spells.
i not agree that u think differing views is fine. u tend to come down hard on people not agree with u or have same view as u. that is my opinion, im allowed 2 have it. and from the likes i get and people who argue back 2 u it seem like others agree.
u play a certain way and it ok. but other can play a different way 2 and that ok.
The point I'm trying to make is that a single event is not enough data to draw any meaningful conclusions about Shrine of Burning Rage. A single result doesn't mean that he made the right decision when he took Eidolon out and put Shrine in.
There's a difference between attacking a person and criticizing a decision or statement that person made. The former isn't acceptable and it's not what I'm doing. The latter is completely acceptable and it is what I'm doing.
my English not great but even i read this i think it's petty. trying 2 help player is good thing but u so hard on the guy and find way to put down his deck never just say he win with no talking down or at least a hey good win sir
The point I'm trying to make is that a single event is not enough data to draw any meaningful conclusions about Shrine of Burning Rage. A single result doesn't mean that he made the right decision when he took Eidolon out and put Shrine in.
There's a difference between attacking a person and criticizing a decision or statement that person made. The former isn't acceptable and it's not what I'm doing. The latter is completely acceptable and it is what I'm doing.
Over the years of Modern Burn we've seen various versions do well. And yes I can understand those who have seen the consistency the Naya and Boros results have put up. However, that does not mean your not allowed to discuss or play a different version or that you have to have the same 75 as everyone else. The primer on page 1 gives many examples but not all of cards you can play. There will be those who are set in their way and those open to new ideas to make the Burn deck as a whole better, neither is wrong. Sometimes we dont realize that we may come off too strong and it may seem overly critical or we try to hard to push a point. I dont think there's bad intentions but again things on the internet can be perceived a way we didnt intend.
If we just play the same 75 from 2012 (I remember how hard pressed my friend was about you have to be Mono Red or its not Burn now he plays Naya ) and never open up to new ideas then we would have passed on Eidolon, Atarkas' and a host of other cards. So 5 years from now if we stay with the same 75 now we may watch as the rest of MTG Modern pass us by with new tech. There are those who want to wait long to see how stable and lasting a new card or version of Burn is before they jump on or never jump on. Thats totally fine. There are those who like to spice up their deck and try new things, thats also totally fine.
I hope we can all have good harmony moving forward cause we are not each others enemy, its every other deck.
I think that a single result does not entirely make a convincing argument that the Shrine is the way to go, but a result that notable certainly makes a strong argument for rigorous testing of the Shrine version of the deck. I like Eidolon as much as the next Burn pilot, but I'm willing to give this Shrine thing a go and see if it does well. And if you'll recall, I was the one chiding people for straying too far into the "unconventional inclusions" rabbit hole earlier in the thread. While this GP win is just one data point, it's a data point that has to be weighed strongly, given the magnitude of the field Le Briand triumphed against.
my English not great but even i read this i think it's petty. trying 2 help player is good thing but u so hard on the guy and find way to put down his deck never just say he win with no talking down or at least a hey good win sir
It's not petty to criticize an idea or a decision that someone has made. I'm not going to mindlessly nod in agreement to everything that everyone does or says, and I'm not going to defer to someone just because they won a tournament. Loic Le Briand won a GP with Shrine in his deck, but that doesn't mean that he made the right decision when he chose to play Shrine. In fact, his own reasoning should have led him to the conclusion that Shrine is not at all worth playing.
I understand that English isn't your first language and that that has probably led you to misinterpret what I've said and to question my intentions. Your interpretation of my intentions is wrong.
sour grapes is sour grapes, it's rude to insult my language and that not right. look at way u talk 2 people that why we get upset. u passive aggressively talk down 2 people.
he won and u can say u not like shrine or he get lucky he still win and can celebrate no matter what anyone say
It's not petty to criticize an idea or a decision that someone has made. I'm not going to mindlessly nod in agreement to everything that everyone does or says, and I'm not going to defer to someone just because they won a tournament. Loic Lue Briand won a GP with Shrine in his deck, but that doesn't mean that he made the right decision when he chose to play Shrine. In fact, his own reasoning should have led him to the conclusion that Shrine is not at all worth playing.
I understand that English isn't your first language and that that has probably led you to misinterpret what I've said and to question my intentions. Your interpretation of my intentions is wrong.
sour grapes is sour grapes, it's rude to insult my language and that not right. look at way u talk 2 people that why we get upset. u passive aggressively talk down 2 people.
he won and u can say u not like shrine or he get lucky he still win and can celebrate no matter what anyone say
I didn't insult you or your language at all. You brought up English yourself, not me. You have misunderstood what I've said and the intentions behind what I've said.
u act like everyone else wrong and u alway right. my opinion and interpretation is mine. now u gonna tell us how 2 feel and think. u conveniently dodge my point of u passive aggressively attack people. i say u try 2 bully but act like u do nothing wrong. maybe it's the way u come accross
I think that a single result does not entirely make a convincing argument that the Shrine is the way to go, but a result that notable certainly makes a strong argument for rigorous testing of the Shrine version of the deck. I like Eidolon as much as the next Burn pilot, but I'm willing to give this Shrine thing a go and see if it does well. And if you'll recall, I was the one chiding people for straying too far into the "unconventional inclusions" rabbit hole earlier in the thread. While this GP win is just one data point, it's a data point that has to be weighed strongly, given the magnitude of the field Le Briand triumphed against.
Testing is fair. I applaud Hayati2013 for planning to evaluate it after 100 matches because it's better than a single data point. It's significantly better than the hivemind reaction of "it won, so it's good".
As I recall, Atarka's Command started off as a few-of as "extra Skullcracks" and maybe even just as sideboard cards and it took a few months before it was generally accepted as worth a maindeck green splash and Skullcrack became the "extra Atarka's Commands". Meaningful testing takes a lot of time.
Xplore1, let's not get too emotionally invested in this. At the very least, the shrines are an interesting possibility that can be tested. What may be optimal for one player isn't necessarily "optimal" for others. Preferences play a part in one's experiences and competencies as well, what's important is that players are comfortable with the tools they're using. It's currently moot arguing vehemently about the shrine card. Better to try it and see if you prefer it over other possibilities and if it works for you and then, if it does, so what if others don't like the suggestion.
His opponent is on Scapeshift.
Game 1 he has the perfect burn hand and draws gas all the time. Deals 9 damage on his final turn.
Game 2 his opponent has Courser of Kruphix, reveals a land but Le Briand has Skullcrack in response to the lifegain trigger. Next turn draws Destructive Revelry on it... He casts double Boros Charm then topdecks and hardcasts a Rift Bolt for the win. No Shrine of Burning Rage drawn or cast in either game...
So 3 matches on camera and it had minimal impact in the slightest. IE as others have said, he won despite the card, not because of it.
Yes, he won a GP with it in his deck, great job, and we should be happy Burn did so well! But without further testing or results I'm sceptical of Shrine over Eidolon. His draws were very lucky and he didn't get mana screwed or flooded.
Yes, he won a GP with it in his deck, great job, and we should be happy Burn did so well! But without further testing or results I'm sceptical of Shrine over Eidolon.
Eventhough Im not switching away from nor advocating switching away from Eidolon either. And Im not thinking this is a new trend. Its nice to see Burn win and different cards being used. Giving credit where's its due/earned. He won. Who knows maybe next its a 5 color or Mono Red that wins
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Notice how my comments aren't "Shrine sucks"... "Nuh uh, Shrine sucks"... "Uhh, no, Shrine sucks" because such short comments would be useless and would add nothing to a discussion. Instead, I've repeatedly said why I think Shrine is bad. I even read Le Briand's statements about why he made the decision to play Shrine, and his statements do not make any sense whatsoever. He says it's a long game card (and it is) and then says that it's good against Affinity (fastest aggro deck in the format) Eldrazi Tron (fast big-mana deck) and GDS (disruptive deck that aims to drop a 4/5, 5/5, or 8/8, protect it, and punch you in the face a couple times until you die). Late game cards are not at all what you want against fast decks. By all means, play Shrine against Lantern if you want, because it's going to be 10+ damage as long as they don't play a Leyline of Sanctity. There's just no such thing as the "late game" against fast decks.
On that note Id like to say it'd be nice to get more tools for Burn, main or side is fine
Sanguine Sacrament
X WW
Instant
You gain twice X life. Put Sanguine Sacrament on the bottom of its owner's library.
It definitely won me some games- there was one game for example where I had the opponent down to 4 life, but he sprang back up to 8, and then a Shrine on 8 finished him off. It seems excellent whenever our main plan doesn't work out perfectly, for example when we start top-decking unnecessary lands in the mid-game.
With the Eidolon (who has my favorite artwork in all of MTG), he also dominated and won me some matches, such as against UR Gifts Storm. However, in certain other matches he just got removed immediately for 2 damage to the opponent, or was not relevant at all since their spells were bigger.
It seems to me so far like the choice depends on the meta you are in, as well as the degree of variance you want to entertain. Having said that, I intend to play on to the 100th overall match to see how I perceive them thereafter.
u play a certain way and it ok. but other can play a different way 2 and that ok.
The point I'm trying to make is that a single event is not enough data to draw any meaningful conclusions about Shrine of Burning Rage. A single result doesn't mean that he made the right decision when he took Eidolon out and put Shrine in.
There's a difference between attacking a person and criticizing a decision or statement that person made. The former isn't acceptable and it's not what I'm doing. The latter is completely acceptable and it is what I'm doing.
If we just play the same 75 from 2012 (I remember how hard pressed my friend was about you have to be Mono Red or its not Burn now he plays Naya
I hope we can all have good harmony moving forward cause we are not each others enemy, its every other deck.
Cheers
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
It's not petty to criticize an idea or a decision that someone has made. I'm not going to mindlessly nod in agreement to everything that everyone does or says, and I'm not going to defer to someone just because they won a tournament. Loic Le Briand won a GP with Shrine in his deck, but that doesn't mean that he made the right decision when he chose to play Shrine. In fact, his own reasoning should have led him to the conclusion that Shrine is not at all worth playing.
I understand that English isn't your first language and that that has probably led you to misinterpret what I've said and to question my intentions. Your interpretation of my intentions is wrong.
he won and u can say u not like shrine or he get lucky he still win and can celebrate no matter what anyone say
I didn't insult you or your language at all. You brought up English yourself, not me. You have misunderstood what I've said and the intentions behind what I've said.
Testing is fair. I applaud Hayati2013 for planning to evaluate it after 100 matches because it's better than a single data point. It's significantly better than the hivemind reaction of "it won, so it's good".
As I recall, Atarka's Command started off as a few-of as "extra Skullcracks" and maybe even just as sideboard cards and it took a few months before it was generally accepted as worth a maindeck green splash and Skullcrack became the "extra Atarka's Commands". Meaningful testing takes a lot of time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdnOc1BU1d0&index=15&list=PLXvWVmmqyaqhMHS5_YQ9ZD9mKb_lP2Vzl
His opponent is on Scapeshift.
Game 1 he has the perfect burn hand and draws gas all the time. Deals 9 damage on his final turn.
Game 2 his opponent has Courser of Kruphix, reveals a land but Le Briand has Skullcrack in response to the lifegain trigger. Next turn draws Destructive Revelry on it... He casts double Boros Charm then topdecks and hardcasts a Rift Bolt for the win. No Shrine of Burning Rage drawn or cast in either game...
So 3 matches on camera and it had minimal impact in the slightest. IE as others have said, he won despite the card, not because of it.
Yes, he won a GP with it in his deck, great job, and we should be happy Burn did so well! But without further testing or results I'm sceptical of Shrine over Eidolon. His draws were very lucky and he didn't get mana screwed or flooded.
Eventhough Im not switching away from nor advocating switching away from Eidolon either. And Im not thinking this is a new trend. Its nice to see Burn win and different cards being used. Giving credit where's its due/earned. He won. Who knows maybe next its a 5 color or Mono Red that wins