I've noticed that some burn players use Sudden Shock in their board. Is this just used as a guaranteed shock against control decks, or am I missing something else?
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Standard: UB Control
Modern: UWR Control
EDH: Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Titania, Protector of Argoth
Phelddagrif
Glissa, the Traitor
Rosheen Meanderer
I've noticed that some burn players use Sudden Shock in their board. Is this just used as a guaranteed shock against control decks, or am I missing something else?
Sudden Shock lets us kill Sakura-Tribe Elder without letting the opponent sacrifice it in response. Also, it allows us to deal with infect creatures more efficiently as the opponent can't cast any pump spell on them. I'm not sure, but I think it kills Arcbound Ravager cleanly, without your opponent moving +1/+1 counters around.
So, it is a card to deal with pesky creatures, not to use against counterspell control. Against blue control we use Exquisite Firecraft
I've noticed that some burn players use Sudden Shock in their board. Is this just used as a guaranteed shock against control decks, or am I missing something else?
Sudden Shock lets us kill Sakura-Tribe Elder without letting the opponent sacrifice it in response. Also, it allows us to deal with infect creatures more efficiently as the opponent can't cast any pump spell on them. I'm not sure, but I think it kills Arcbound Ravager cleanly, without your opponent moving +1/+1 counters around.
So, it is a card to deal with pesky creatures, not to use against counterspell control. Against blue control we use Exquisite Firecraft
It still allows them to move the counters that were already on Arcbound Ravager to another creature once Ravager dies (Modular sets up a triggered ability when it dies), but they can't sacrifice other artifacts to put more counters on Ravager to prevent it from dying.
But yes, Sudden Shock is used to deal with problematic creatures cleanly.
The math is fine, but you need to consider both colors together, not separately. Having 4 Mountains can really restrict your access to both splash colors. You really want 18 or so total off-colored mana so that you can have access to both W and G by turn 4 or so.
so what are people siding in and out vs DSJ on the play and draw? How successful has your plan been?
What game plan have you using? Has anyone had success not firing off spells until they land a goyf or have already dropped themselves to below 13? Has this worked out?
I'm currently siding out blaze and skullcrack for paths and relics but I'm sort of feeling siding out some number of creatures as they are immediately outclassed outside of eidolon. Relic helps a lot but it's still s very difficult match.
I'm actually siding out all of my creatures except Eidolon and bringing in 2-3x Deflecting Palm, 3x Paths, and 2x RIP. Basically draw go, let them do the work for me, live through their IoK and seizes, make abrupt decay a dead card by not playing any dudes, then basically hemorrhage burn spells once they have got themselves low enough.
I'm curios about no path situation... the guy went 2nd, Only losing to DSJ deck.
I'm interesed about this list, I prefferable like to play without in a control enviroment, Nacatl is very powerfull against combo decks with propper support.
It's like I'm looking at a Burn list pre-Probe ban. I think this style of Burn is still playable (it's Burn, it will never be bad), but he probably would have gotten that W against Death's Shadow if his list were more up-to-date.
Which was actually my concern. A creature-less Burn would have a hard time stopping the incoming onslaught methinks, but Path and Palm should be enough if playing smart, as you mention.
What with all people proclaiming the death of Burn, I am not really sure this is the case. I don't want that to be the case, because, as I said earlier, I am fascinated by the beautiful simplicity and consistency of Burn. Not saying this is a mindless deck to pilot, it has actually opened my eyes that all play styles should be respected.
Ari Lax said Merfolk was bad too. He committed horrific, match-losing misplays in his video series with the deck, and blamed the deck instead of himself. That dude has no pulse on the Modern format.
As for the article... the paranoia was overblown. It was basically a reactionary piece to an interregnum in the metagame that was a bit hostile to Burn, but before the rise of Death's Shadow. The deck is exquisitely positioned now, and its high standing reflects it.
Er, who's proclaiming the death of Burn of late? It's a top-3 deck in the format (source). Burn is doing fine.
One of the mods of /r/magictcg has claimed on multiple occasions that Burn is no longer tier 1 despite significant evidence to the contrary. There have been a couple clickbait articles in the last month about how Burn is dead. It's kind of hilarious.
But whatever, if people want to pretend Burn is dead, they won't sideboard for it and then they'll get curbstomped by Burn.
I'm totally happy to have this cheap "former-tier1" outperform deathshadow decks.
Just came back from a wednesday night magic, and my son and I swapped decks (he took burn). I briefed him a little on the strategies you all posted here dealing with DS, and for 2 matchups he had it really easy: pre board he held back, endured the discards (better top decks to replace with threats) and yeah burnt through more than enough damage necessary to close the game. Funny comment: "I was so relaxed, yet happy, watching opponent life totals go down without me doing much."
Postboard the deck had RIP. And I went full retard customizing the naya build with a single blood crypt for fatal push in the side. And there's deflecting palm. Was really really fun playing burn control.
Ari Lax has written another article earlier this week concerning modern and I found it both missing crucial parts of a big picture and lacking evidence. I'm starting to form the picture that not all pros are non-clickbait professionals or objective enough to present truthful articles. If I had to stop my SCG membership he'll be my number one <insert fav expletive here>
I'm pretty sure Ari Lax recently tweeted that Burn is now a "joke deck", so he's clearly not got anything of value to say about Modern.
Edit: Yep, he did. December 30th "Next Modern hot take: Burn is back to joke deck status for the first time since 2011. I don't know when that became true, but it is."
So is the strategy against DSJ literally to do nothing until they get low enough you can burn them out?
Pretty much. It actually works surprisingly well, since we almost completely strip them of their ability to do anything relevant.
The gameplan is basically to not let ourselves do their work for them. For the most part, they have two relevant threats: Deaths Shadow and Tarmogoyf. If we hit them with spells early, our hand will likely be empty once they get to around 6-8 life, which leaves us wide open to Shadow. On the other hand, if we just sit back and refuse to go after their life total, they never get to cast Shadow and the only threat they have left is Tarmogoyf, so the whole game centres around whether or not they can stick a goyf and kill us with it before we can assemble enough burn to finish them off. They also have no choice but to take some amount of damage from their lands, so by the time the games goes that far we should only need five or six spells. Use RiP or Relic to keep them off Delirium for Traverse and weaken goyf, and use paths and creature burn to clean up anything relevant they manage to get on board. Don`t let them scare you into casting burn spells to their face in response to discard spells. Pressure is the only defense the DSJ deck has against this plan, so if you can hold them off long enough and draw even reasonably well, their whole gameplan just folds.
So is the strategy against DSJ literally to do nothing until they get low enough you can burn them out?
Pretty much. It actually works surprisingly well, since we almost completely strip them of their ability to do anything relevant.
The gameplan is basically to not let ourselves do their work for them. For the most part, they have two relevant threats: Deaths Shadow and Tarmogoyf. If we hit them with spells early, our hand will likely be empty once they get to around 6-8 life, which leaves us wide open to Shadow. On the other hand, if we just sit back and refuse to go after their life total, they never get to cast Shadow and the only threat they have left is Tarmogoyf, so the whole game centres around whether or not they can stick a goyf and kill us with it before we can assemble enough burn to finish them off. They also have no choice but to take some amount of damage from their lands, so by the time the games goes that far we should only need five or six spells. Use RiP or Relic to keep them off Delirium for Traverse and weaken goyf, and use paths and creature burn to clean up anything relevant they manage to get on board. Don`t let them scare you into casting burn spells to their face in response to discard spells. Pressure is the only defense the DSJ deck has against this plan, so if you can hold them off long enough and draw even reasonably well, their whole gameplan just folds.
I have yet to play the new builds of Suicide Zoo/Death Shadow, it sounds quite od but it seams like it makes sense. But should I be doing literally nothing but fetch lands (seems a bit absurd) or is it ok to play out goblin guide ect. To chump his goyf's?
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"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." —Jaya Ballard, task mage
I haven't played against the new DS, but I played the old DS this way where I'd poke them initially and then wait for them to do work for me towards killing themselves. I believe it was rather effective. I would poke them a few times and then force them to cross 13 on their own and then avoid casting spells until I could just kill them. The best is when you cast Searing Blaze on DS just to get 3 damage in and they waste a pump spell trying to keep it alive.
Edit: The idea is that you want a situation where they cross 13 and you can then kill them over the course of the rest of their turn plus your next turn and they're dead before DS matters. It takes 4-5 cards to do it.
I haven't played against the new DS, but I played the old DS this way where I'd poke them initially and then wait for them to do work for me towards killing themselves. I believe it was rather effective. I would poke them a few times and then force them to cross 13 on their own and then avoid casting spells until I could just kill them. The best is when you cast Searing Blaze on DS just to get 3 damage in and they waste a pump spell trying to keep it alive.
Edit: The idea is that you want a situation where they cross 13 and you can then kill them over the course of the rest of their turn plus your next turn and they're dead before DS matters. It takes 4-5 cards to do it.
That's similar to how I would play, although with its Cats and become immense they were alot better at combing at high life than the new one seems to be.
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"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." —Jaya Ballard, task mage
Modern
RWBMardu BurnBWR
RUStormUR
B8RackB
Legacy
RBurnR
Highlander
RBRakdos GoblinsBR
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Modern: UWR Control
EDH: Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Titania, Protector of Argoth
Phelddagrif
Glissa, the Traitor
Rosheen Meanderer
RIP Jimmy foREVer
Sudden Shock lets us kill Sakura-Tribe Elder without letting the opponent sacrifice it in response. Also, it allows us to deal with infect creatures more efficiently as the opponent can't cast any pump spell on them. I'm not sure, but I think it kills Arcbound Ravager cleanly, without your opponent moving +1/+1 counters around.
So, it is a card to deal with pesky creatures, not to use against counterspell control. Against blue control we use Exquisite Firecraft
It still allows them to move the counters that were already on Arcbound Ravager to another creature once Ravager dies (Modular sets up a triggered ability when it dies), but they can't sacrifice other artifacts to put more counters on Ravager to prevent it from dying.
But yes, Sudden Shock is used to deal with problematic creatures cleanly.
I just saw a deck from mtgtop8 from Dylan Plourde. TJs Winter Titanium Plus Modern (216 players)
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=15081&d=291298&f=MO
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Copperline Gorge
2 Mountain
3 Sacred Foundry
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Stomping Ground
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Atarka's Command
4 Boros Charm
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Rift Bolt
4 Searing Blaze
4 Destructive Revelry
2 Lightning Helix
1 Molten Rain
2 Searing Blood
3 Skullcrack
1 Sudden Shock
I'm curios about no path situation... the guy went 2nd, Only losing to DSJ deck.
I'm interesed about this list, I prefferable like to play without in a control enviroment, Nacatl is very powerfull against combo decks with propper support.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
What with all people proclaiming the death of Burn, I am not really sure this is the case. I don't want that to be the case, because, as I said earlier, I am fascinated by the beautiful simplicity and consistency of Burn. Not saying this is a mindless deck to pilot, it has actually opened my eyes that all play styles should be respected.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Ari Lax said burn was bad, and some terrible article was floating around Reddit about how Goblin Guide based decks are supposedly bad.
I'm fine with people thinking Burn is bad. They'll continue to not sideboard for it.
As for the article... the paranoia was overblown. It was basically a reactionary piece to an interregnum in the metagame that was a bit hostile to Burn, but before the rise of Death's Shadow. The deck is exquisitely positioned now, and its high standing reflects it.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
One of the mods of /r/magictcg has claimed on multiple occasions that Burn is no longer tier 1 despite significant evidence to the contrary. There have been a couple clickbait articles in the last month about how Burn is dead. It's kind of hilarious.
But whatever, if people want to pretend Burn is dead, they won't sideboard for it and then they'll get curbstomped by Burn.
Just came back from a wednesday night magic, and my son and I swapped decks (he took burn). I briefed him a little on the strategies you all posted here dealing with DS, and for 2 matchups he had it really easy: pre board he held back, endured the discards (better top decks to replace with threats) and yeah burnt through more than enough damage necessary to close the game. Funny comment: "I was so relaxed, yet happy, watching opponent life totals go down without me doing much."
Postboard the deck had RIP. And I went full retard customizing the naya build with a single blood crypt for fatal push in the side. And there's deflecting palm. Was really really fun playing burn control.
Ari Lax has written another article earlier this week concerning modern and I found it both missing crucial parts of a big picture and lacking evidence. I'm starting to form the picture that not all pros are non-clickbait professionals or objective enough to present truthful articles. If I had to stop my SCG membership he'll be my number one <insert fav expletive here>
Let burn be tier 2 please. Free money.
Edit: Yep, he did. December 30th "Next Modern hot take: Burn is back to joke deck status for the first time since 2011. I don't know when that became true, but it is."
Pretty much. It actually works surprisingly well, since we almost completely strip them of their ability to do anything relevant.
The gameplan is basically to not let ourselves do their work for them. For the most part, they have two relevant threats: Deaths Shadow and Tarmogoyf. If we hit them with spells early, our hand will likely be empty once they get to around 6-8 life, which leaves us wide open to Shadow. On the other hand, if we just sit back and refuse to go after their life total, they never get to cast Shadow and the only threat they have left is Tarmogoyf, so the whole game centres around whether or not they can stick a goyf and kill us with it before we can assemble enough burn to finish them off. They also have no choice but to take some amount of damage from their lands, so by the time the games goes that far we should only need five or six spells. Use RiP or Relic to keep them off Delirium for Traverse and weaken goyf, and use paths and creature burn to clean up anything relevant they manage to get on board. Don`t let them scare you into casting burn spells to their face in response to discard spells. Pressure is the only defense the DSJ deck has against this plan, so if you can hold them off long enough and draw even reasonably well, their whole gameplan just folds.
I have yet to play the new builds of Suicide Zoo/Death Shadow, it sounds quite od but it seams like it makes sense. But should I be doing literally nothing but fetch lands (seems a bit absurd) or is it ok to play out goblin guide ect. To chump his goyf's?
Edit: The idea is that you want a situation where they cross 13 and you can then kill them over the course of the rest of their turn plus your next turn and they're dead before DS matters. It takes 4-5 cards to do it.
That's similar to how I would play, although with its Cats and become immense they were alot better at combing at high life than the new one seems to be.