I feel like DSJ is about 50/50. I've only played about 50 games against it, but that's what it seems like so far. It's not really a control role per se, it's more like a reactive role, because your gameplan is to kill them faster than they kill you. Playing at instant speed is what you want to do.
I run 3 Relic of Progenitus in my sideboard rather than Rest in Peace, because it's 1 mana (doesn't get discarded on the play) and it cycles for gas later when you have spare mana.
Hey guys, I'm putting burn together soon and I have a few sideboarding questions.
1) Do you guys like Molten Rain? Is it worth playing a few copies, or is a 3 CMC card often too awkward? If you had a few in the side, when would you bring them in?
2) Let's say you expect an ungodly amount of Chalice of the Void, from Eldrazi Tron for example. Is it worth playing Artifact destruction at something other than 2 CMC? Something like Shattering Spree to specifically get past it, or is a better plan to just be as fast as possible and hope it doesn't lock you out?
3) How necessary do you guys find Path to Exile? Other than removing Firewalker, when do you value it? Do you bring it in against Tarmogoyf decks? Eldrazi decks?
4) Do you think graveyard hate is absolutely necessary? If so, for what match-ups? If I was playing any, I'd want to play Rest in Peace because the only matches I want grave hate I want the strongest hate that exists. Otherwise, it doesn't seem to me like it'd be worth the loss of time and tempo to dent the opponent. I either want to further our gameplan, or cripple their's, and I like Rest in Peace more for that reason.
Hey guys, I'm putting burn together soon and I have a few sideboarding questions.
1) Do you guys like Molten Rain? Is it worth playing a few copies, or is a 3 CMC card often too awkward? If you had a few in the side, when would you bring them in?
2) Let's say you expect an ungodly amount of Chalice of the Void, from Eldrazi Tron for example. Is it worth playing Artifact destruction at something other than 2 CMC? Something like Shattering Spree to specifically get past it, or is a better plan to just be as fast as possible and hope it doesn't lock you out?
3) How necessary do you guys find Path to Exile? Other than removing Firewalker, when do you value it? Do you bring it in against Tarmogoyf decks? Eldrazi decks?
4) Do you think graveyard hate is absolutely necessary? If so, for what match-ups? If I was playing any, I'd want to play Rest in Peace because the only matches I want grave hate I want the strongest hate that exists. Otherwise, it doesn't seem to me like it'd be worth the loss of time and tempo to dent the opponent. I either want to further our gameplan, or cripple their's, and I like Rest in Peace more for that reason.
Thanks for the feedback everyone.
Molten Rain is expensive and awkward to cast. You'd bring them against big mana decks (maybe even Jund because locking them off of a color is worthwhile), but it's only good if you can hit it on turn 3 and that's tough with so few lands. I think it's better to just race them instead.
I'd rather play DRev. If they have a chalice on 1 and a chalice on 2, you're up a creek without a paddle even if you have Shattering Spree.
I bring in Path against decks where there are things I can't remove otherwise and decks where controlling the other player's board is important (CoCo combo for instance).
I used to not play any, but I think it's important now because Death's Shadow is flavor of the month. I think Relic is the best grave hate card for Burn. Against DS, tapping it every turn will slow down their Goyfs and Traverses, and you can draw a card off of it later. Costing 1 mana is a virtue, too.
Hey guys, I'm putting burn together soon and I have a few sideboarding questions.
1) Do you guys like Molten Rain? Is it worth playing a few copies, or is a 3 CMC card often too awkward? If you had a few in the side, when would you bring them in?
2) Let's say you expect an ungodly amount of Chalice of the Void, from Eldrazi Tron for example. Is it worth playing Artifact destruction at something other than 2 CMC? Something like Shattering Spree to specifically get past it, or is a better plan to just be as fast as possible and hope it doesn't lock you out?
3) How necessary do you guys find Path to Exile? Other than removing Firewalker, when do you value it? Do you bring it in against Tarmogoyf decks? Eldrazi decks?
4) Do you think graveyard hate is absolutely necessary? If so, for what match-ups? If I was playing any, I'd want to play Rest in Peace because the only matches I want grave hate I want the strongest hate that exists. Otherwise, it doesn't seem to me like it'd be worth the loss of time and tempo to dent the opponent. I either want to further our gameplan, or cripple their's, and I like Rest in Peace more for that reason.
Thanks for the feedback everyone.
Molten Rain is expensive and awkward to cast. You'd bring them against big mana decks (maybe even Jund because locking them off of a color is worthwhile), but it's only good if you can hit it on turn 3 and that's tough with so few lands. I think it's better to just race them instead.
I'd rather play DRev. If they have a chalice on 1 and a chalice on 2, you're up a creek without a paddle even if you have Shattering Spree.
I bring in Path against decks where there are things I can't remove otherwise and decks where controlling the other player's board is important (CoCo combo for instance).
I used to not play any, but I think it's important now because Death's Shadow is flavor of the month. I think Relic is the best grave hate card for Burn. Against DS, tapping it every turn will slow down their Goyfs and Traverses, and you can draw a card off of it later. Costing 1 mana is a virtue, too.
I'll point out the Shattering Spree gets around Chalice because it copies, and you don't cast the copies. I'd also never not play 4 D Revs. I'd just play 1-2 Spree in addition.
As for graveyard hate, I'm really torn. Relic cost 1 to play, but it costs another to stop the deck. If their off to a fast graveyard start, it really needs to be 2 mana. Although I suppose it sneaks under discard easier than Rest in Peace. I really do like Rest in Peace in general though. I guess I'll have to test some games with both and see if one grabs me over the other.
I know that Spree gets around Chalice because the copies aren't cast and I know that Chalice is a very strong answer to Chalice because of it. But, you need to imagine the situation where you'd need Chalice. They'll put the first Chalice on 1, so a situation where DRev doesn't blow up Chalice implies that they have Chalice on 1 and Chalice on 2. If your opponent has Chalices on 1 and on 2, Shattering Spree isn't going to save you even if it does blow up both Chalices because you're already very far behind. If you have DRev and they have a Chalice on 1 only, you should blow it up immediately and it will cost you the same that Spreed would have. That's why I said Spree isn't worth it. It's only good in a situation where you've already lost the game regardless, so it's not worth burning those sideboard spots on it.
Relic costs 1 to play and incrementally hates on their graveyard by trying to keep them off Delirium and weakening their Goyfs because you'll tap it every turn. When you do crack it, you have about a 50% chance of drawing gas with it. RiP is 2 mana and is gone if they IoK/TS, and significantly slows your game down if you do play it. 2 mana split over 2 turns is better than 2 mana on one turn.
//Sideboard
4 Destructive Revelry
3 Kor Firewalker
3 Path to exile
3 Rest in Peace
2 Deflecting Palm
[/deck]
Could you tell me what do you think about :
- Mana Base
- Rest in peace vs relic
I think my list is a pretty classic RW one but if you have any advices you are more than welcome
- RW vs Naya
I do feel than the current meta is better for RW burn since we have better MU vs Naya, Bushwacker, DS and other aggro decks.
Do you guys agree?
- Finally and may be my the advices I need more are sideboard ones. Indeed as always it is easy to get what to side in but side out is way more difficult.I might be wrong about a lot of things so do not hesitate to correct me. Here are my thoughts :
Your lands are fine. I run -1 Fetch +1 Stomping Ground because I'm running 2 Atarka's Command in my sideboard along with the normal 4 D-Rev.
The post above yours explains why many players prefer Relic to RiP. I'm in the Relic camp because Death Shadow Jund is a thing.
Go back and read a page or two for thoughts on Boros vs Naya main deck. Both are fine, neither is strictly better than the other. I've chosen Boros because I want to beat the mirror in my area (lots of budget burn running around my FNM venue).
As for sideboarding, 3 Kor Firewalker seems overkill, it's mostly a mirror card. It's not great vs much else, except maybe Reckless Zoo, which isn't a top tier deck. I'm currently running 1, and I don't miss the second copy I used to run since I'm on 4 main deck Lightning Helix
Some general sideboard thoughts, as I don't agree with a lot of your specific boarding decisions:
I don't generally board out Boros Charm. It's the best reach card in the deck. Even against Blood Moon decks I would yank my copies of Lightning Helix first.
I do a lot of boarding out Eidolon of the Great Revel on the draw, Rift Bolt on the play because Eidolon locking yourself is bad. Learning when it's correct to manage Eidolon is one of the harder parts about playing Burn.
I mostly bring Deflecting Palm in against decks that have either: Infect, Griselbrand or Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. Palm is a greedy card if the gameplan of just killing your opponent faster is better. Be very careful about when you bring Palm in.
I like running 13 non creature spells in my sideboard, so that I can sideboard all of my 13 creatures out against the Expertise + Breaking // Entering decks floating around.
Generally, underboarding is better than overboarding. When in doubt, don't bring it in.
With DSJ everywhere what are people's thoughts on using condemn instead of path to exile I heard some people discussing it but I don't think it would work for burn. Sure the idea of 3-for-1'ing our opponent by pathing their goyf and killing two of the DS's during combat is cute but we just gave them like 6 life... that's two more bolts to kill them...
Anyone tried them out yet? Thoughts?
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Standard // nRG Aggro
Modern // Burn (main) and Living End (secondary) now Jund.
For fun check out my janky combo primer: Turn 3 Grixis Combo
"Can't beat em' Jund em'!"
With DSJ everywhere what are people's thoughts on using condemn instead of path to exile I heard some people discussing it but I don't think it would work for burn. Sure the idea of 3-for-1'ing our opponent by pathing their goyf and killing two of the DS's during combat is cute but we just gave them like 6 life... that's two more bolts to kill them...
Anyone tried them out yet? Thoughts?
"W: Wipe the board. Set yourself back at least 2 burn spells." sounds extraordinarily bad, like not even worth thinking about bad.
so what are people siding in and out vs DSJ on the play and draw? How successful has your plan been?
What game plan have you using? Has anyone had success not firing off spells until they land a goyf or have already dropped themselves to below 13? Has this worked out?
I'm currently siding out blaze and skullcrack for paths and relics but I'm sort of feeling siding out some number of creatures as they are immediately outclassed outside of eidolon. Relic helps a lot but it's still s very difficult match.
What do you think about running 2 Renegade Tactics in this creature heavy meta? I have been trying them out online with good success. It allowed me to get in another 2-4 points of creature damage bypassing a Goyf, Matter Reshaper, TKS, Wurmcoil Engine et. al. The cycling is really nice and unlike a card like Titan's Strength you can't get blown out by removal.
so what are people siding in and out vs DSJ on the play and draw? How successful has your plan been?
What game plan have you using? Has anyone had success not firing off spells until they land a goyf or have already dropped themselves to below 13? Has this worked out?
I'm currently siding out blaze and skullcrack for paths and relics but I'm sort of feeling siding out some number of creatures as they are immediately outclassed outside of eidolon. Relic helps a lot but it's still s very difficult match.
I'm actually siding out all of my creatures except Eidolon and bringing in 2-3x Deflecting Palm, 3x Paths, and 2x RIP. Basically draw go, let them do the work for me, live through their IoK and seizes, make abrupt decay a dead card by not playing any dudes, then basically hemorrhage burn spells once they have got themselves low enough.
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Standard // nRG Aggro
Modern // Burn (main) and Living End (secondary) now Jund.
For fun check out my janky combo primer: Turn 3 Grixis Combo
"Can't beat em' Jund em'!"
What are the generally accepted bad matchups for Burn? I'm trying to choose a secondary deck to play, and I would like a deck that has even to positive matchups against the decks that are good against Burn. So far I'm thinking about Affinity, Merfolk, and DNT. Potentially DSJ as well. I guess Soul Sisters as well, but I can't remember the last time I saw that deck.
What are the generally accepted bad matchups for Burn? I'm trying to choose a secondary deck to play, and I would like a deck that has even to positive matchups against the decks that are good against Burn. So far I'm thinking about Affinity, Merfolk, and DNT. Potentially DSJ as well. I guess Soul Sisters as well, but I can't remember the last time I saw that deck.
Affinity is a race, not necessarily a bad matchup. Merfolk and DNT are bad though. Abzan Company can be tough. The absolute worst matchup is probably Ad Nauseam.
What are the generally accepted bad matchups for Burn? I'm trying to choose a secondary deck to play, and I would like a deck that has even to positive matchups against the decks that are good against Burn. So far I'm thinking about Affinity, Merfolk, and DNT. Potentially DSJ as well. I guess Soul Sisters as well, but I can't remember the last time I saw that deck.
Hmm, deck that could access to big creature very fast such as tasigur, rhino, smasher can be bad for burn preboard as well.
Merfolk regularly kicks the piss out of me at my LGS. I mainboard 4 ensnaring bridges at that 1 store specifically to deal with it.
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Modern - Pyro Prison
Modern - GW Tron
Modern - Mono G Tron
Modern - RWg Burn
Commander - Yisan, The Wanderer Bard cEDH build
Commander - Edric, Spymaster of Trest - Budget/Casual list - complete
Commander - Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis - $35 Budget upgrade
Commander - Edgar Markov - $150 upgrade
I'm currently running 10 fetches, 3 fastlands, 5 shocks, and 2 basics playing catless Naya. I have 1 Lava Man and 3 Searing MB and 1 Searing SB. Should I go up to 11 fetches and drop a fastland?
What you didnt mention is what splash cards are you playing. Are you running both command and boros? Do you also have Helix? What 3 fastlands? 2 vantage/1 gorge?
Edit: Without knowing any of the above I would still personally go up to 11 fetches and I dont even run GLM.
What you didnt mention is what splash cards are you playing. Are you running both command and boros? Do you also have Helix? What 3 fastlands? 2 vantage/1 gorge?
Edit: Without knowing any of the above I would still personally go up to 11 fetches and I dont even run GLM.
What you didnt mention is what splash cards are you playing. Are you running both command and boros? Do you also have Helix? What 3 fastlands? 2 vantage/1 gorge?
Edit: Without knowing any of the above I would still personally go up to 11 fetches and I dont even run GLM.
I dont think you need 3x Sacred Foundry and 3x Inspiring vantage. I do like 20 lands myself as well though. I personally dont like GLM right now as infect isn't very popular. I also would run GY removal hates like relic or RIP over cage personally but your meta milage may vary.
Now that I look at it though you only need 14 sources of W to have access to Path on T1 in sideboard games and 13 sources to have access to W on T2 for helix/charm/palm. You only need 13 sources of G to have access to it on T2 and since you’re not running nacatl you don’t need to have it T1. So I think you should run 11 fetch, 2 Sacred foundry, 2 Stomping Ground, 1 inspiring vantage, 4x mountain. This gives you access to all the colors you need when you need them and allows you to have the least amount of self harm.
I run 3 Relic of Progenitus in my sideboard rather than Rest in Peace, because it's 1 mana (doesn't get discarded on the play) and it cycles for gas later when you have spare mana.
1) Do you guys like Molten Rain? Is it worth playing a few copies, or is a 3 CMC card often too awkward? If you had a few in the side, when would you bring them in?
2) Let's say you expect an ungodly amount of Chalice of the Void, from Eldrazi Tron for example. Is it worth playing Artifact destruction at something other than 2 CMC? Something like Shattering Spree to specifically get past it, or is a better plan to just be as fast as possible and hope it doesn't lock you out?
3) How necessary do you guys find Path to Exile? Other than removing Firewalker, when do you value it? Do you bring it in against Tarmogoyf decks? Eldrazi decks?
4) Do you think graveyard hate is absolutely necessary? If so, for what match-ups? If I was playing any, I'd want to play Rest in Peace because the only matches I want grave hate I want the strongest hate that exists. Otherwise, it doesn't seem to me like it'd be worth the loss of time and tempo to dent the opponent. I either want to further our gameplan, or cripple their's, and I like Rest in Peace more for that reason.
Thanks for the feedback everyone.
Modern - GB Elves, UW Ojutai Control
Legacy - BWG Junk Stoneblade
Gay and Proud
#MakeAmericaGreatAgain
Molten Rain is expensive and awkward to cast. You'd bring them against big mana decks (maybe even Jund because locking them off of a color is worthwhile), but it's only good if you can hit it on turn 3 and that's tough with so few lands. I think it's better to just race them instead.
I'd rather play DRev. If they have a chalice on 1 and a chalice on 2, you're up a creek without a paddle even if you have Shattering Spree.
I bring in Path against decks where there are things I can't remove otherwise and decks where controlling the other player's board is important (CoCo combo for instance).
I used to not play any, but I think it's important now because Death's Shadow is flavor of the month. I think Relic is the best grave hate card for Burn. Against DS, tapping it every turn will slow down their Goyfs and Traverses, and you can draw a card off of it later. Costing 1 mana is a virtue, too.
I'll point out the Shattering Spree gets around Chalice because it copies, and you don't cast the copies. I'd also never not play 4 D Revs. I'd just play 1-2 Spree in addition.
As for graveyard hate, I'm really torn. Relic cost 1 to play, but it costs another to stop the deck. If their off to a fast graveyard start, it really needs to be 2 mana. Although I suppose it sneaks under discard easier than Rest in Peace. I really do like Rest in Peace in general though. I guess I'll have to test some games with both and see if one grabs me over the other.
Modern - GB Elves, UW Ojutai Control
Legacy - BWG Junk Stoneblade
Gay and Proud
#MakeAmericaGreatAgain
Relic costs 1 to play and incrementally hates on their graveyard by trying to keep them off Delirium and weakening their Goyfs because you'll tap it every turn. When you do crack it, you have about a 50% chance of drawing gas with it. RiP is 2 mana and is gone if they IoK/TS, and significantly slows your game down if you do play it. 2 mana split over 2 turns is better than 2 mana on one turn.
Your lands are fine. I run -1 Fetch +1 Stomping Ground because I'm running 2 Atarka's Command in my sideboard along with the normal 4 D-Rev.
The post above yours explains why many players prefer Relic to RiP. I'm in the Relic camp because Death Shadow Jund is a thing.
Go back and read a page or two for thoughts on Boros vs Naya main deck. Both are fine, neither is strictly better than the other. I've chosen Boros because I want to beat the mirror in my area (lots of budget burn running around my FNM venue).
As for sideboarding, 3 Kor Firewalker seems overkill, it's mostly a mirror card. It's not great vs much else, except maybe Reckless Zoo, which isn't a top tier deck. I'm currently running 1, and I don't miss the second copy I used to run since I'm on 4 main deck Lightning Helix
Some general sideboard thoughts, as I don't agree with a lot of your specific boarding decisions:
I don't generally board out Boros Charm. It's the best reach card in the deck. Even against Blood Moon decks I would yank my copies of Lightning Helix first.
I do a lot of boarding out Eidolon of the Great Revel on the draw, Rift Bolt on the play because Eidolon locking yourself is bad. Learning when it's correct to manage Eidolon is one of the harder parts about playing Burn.
I mostly bring Deflecting Palm in against decks that have either: Infect, Griselbrand or Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. Palm is a greedy card if the gameplan of just killing your opponent faster is better. Be very careful about when you bring Palm in.
I bring out Grim Lavamancer when I board in graveyard hate.
I like running 13 non creature spells in my sideboard, so that I can sideboard all of my 13 creatures out against the Expertise + Breaking // Entering decks floating around.
Generally, underboarding is better than overboarding. When in doubt, don't bring it in.
Anyone tried them out yet? Thoughts?
Modern // Burn (main) and Living End (secondary) now Jund.
For fun check out my janky combo primer: Turn 3 Grixis Combo
"Can't beat em' Jund em'!"
"W: Wipe the board. Set yourself back at least 2 burn spells." sounds extraordinarily bad, like not even worth thinking about bad.
What game plan have you using? Has anyone had success not firing off spells until they land a goyf or have already dropped themselves to below 13? Has this worked out?
I'm currently siding out blaze and skullcrack for paths and relics but I'm sort of feeling siding out some number of creatures as they are immediately outclassed outside of eidolon. Relic helps a lot but it's still s very difficult match.
GRWNaya BurnGRW
GRWJundGRW
CAffinityC
UGUG EldraziUG
GRWBushwhacker ZooGRW
UBWRAd NauseamUBWR
Legacy
RBurnR
UBSneak & ShowUB
CEldrazi AggroC
I'm actually siding out all of my creatures except Eidolon and bringing in 2-3x Deflecting Palm, 3x Paths, and 2x RIP. Basically draw go, let them do the work for me, live through their IoK and seizes, make abrupt decay a dead card by not playing any dudes, then basically hemorrhage burn spells once they have got themselves low enough.
Modern // Burn (main) and Living End (secondary) now Jund.
For fun check out my janky combo primer: Turn 3 Grixis Combo
"Can't beat em' Jund em'!"
Mardu Burn
Monogreen Stompy
Legacy
Burn
Pauper
Dimir Flicker
Monowhite Tokens
Affinity is a race, not necessarily a bad matchup. Merfolk and DNT are bad though. Abzan Company can be tough. The absolute worst matchup is probably Ad Nauseam.
Hmm, deck that could access to big creature very fast such as tasigur, rhino, smasher can be bad for burn preboard as well.
Modern - GW Tron
Modern - Mono G Tron
Modern - RWg Burn
Commander - Yisan, The Wanderer Bard cEDH build
Commander - Edric, Spymaster of Trest - Budget/Casual list - complete
Commander - Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis - $35 Budget upgrade
Commander - Edgar Markov - $150 upgrade
WRGBurnGRW
RBGJund Shadowvine[/mana]gbr[/mana]
RGTooth & NailGR
Standard:
BGBG Energy ConstrictorGB
Edit: Without knowing any of the above I would still personally go up to 11 fetches and I dont even run GLM.
GRWNaya BurnGRW
GRWJundGRW
CAffinityC
UGUG EldraziUG
GRWBushwhacker ZooGRW
UBWRAd NauseamUBWR
Legacy
RBurnR
UBSneak & ShowUB
CEldrazi AggroC
Here is my list:
//13 Creature
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
// 19 Instant
4 Atarka's Command
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Searing Blaze
2 Lightning Helix
2 Skullcrack
2 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Inspiring Vantage
// 8 Sorcery
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Kor Firewalker
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Deflecting Palm
3 Destructive Revelry
2 Path to Exile
1 Searing Blaze
1 Lightning Helix
1 Molten Rain
WRGBurnGRW
RBGJund Shadowvine[/mana]gbr[/mana]
RGTooth & NailGR
Standard:
BGBG Energy ConstrictorGB
I dont think you need 3x Sacred Foundry and 3x Inspiring vantage. I do like 20 lands myself as well though. I personally dont like GLM right now as infect isn't very popular. I also would run GY removal hates like relic or RIP over cage personally but your meta milage may vary.
Now that I look at it though you only need 14 sources of W to have access to Path on T1 in sideboard games and 13 sources to have access to W on T2 for helix/charm/palm. You only need 13 sources of G to have access to it on T2 and since you’re not running nacatl you don’t need to have it T1. So I think you should run 11 fetch, 2 Sacred foundry, 2 Stomping Ground, 1 inspiring vantage, 4x mountain. This gives you access to all the colors you need when you need them and allows you to have the least amount of self harm.
Edit: fixed the count of sources needed for a specific single color by T2. Source for the math http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/
GRWNaya BurnGRW
GRWJundGRW
CAffinityC
UGUG EldraziUG
GRWBushwhacker ZooGRW
UBWRAd NauseamUBWR
Legacy
RBurnR
UBSneak & ShowUB
CEldrazi AggroC