naya burn noob here, is it ok if i take a look at what catless naya looks like?
My list is linked in my signature. Maindeck Atarka's Command, no Nacatls.
I love the list! =) So we don't need scalding tarns? I just bought 3 wooded foothills, 3 bloodstained mires and 3 arid mesas in case the last few fetches have to be tarns. Anyway, the one thing that stands out to me is 3 deflecting palms on the side.. you really get to use that many?
naya burn noob here, is it ok if i take a look at what catless naya looks like?
My list is linked in my signature. Maindeck Atarka's Command, no Nacatls.
I love the list! =) So we don't need scalding tarns? I just bought 3 wooded foothills, 3 bloodstained mires and 3 arid mesas in case the last few fetches have to be tarns. Anyway, the one thing that stands out to me is 3 deflecting palms on the side.. you really get to use that many?
In a deck where every fetchable land is a Mountain, all fetches that search for Mountains are identical. You wouldn't need a Scalding Tarn unless you wanted a 13th fetch. Pithing Needle isn't super common in Modern, so it's not very critical to spread out fetches evenly in order to dodge getting shut off by Needle.
Sometimes I play 3 Palms. Sometimes I play 2 Palms and add a Helix/Skullcrack instead. I want 3 when I'm playing against a ROFL-combo creature deck, like Death's Shadow or Infect. In a sense, they serve similar purposes to me. Palm nullifies a lifegain effect and deals damage like Skullcrack does. Against something like Valakut, Palm is basically identical to Helix because they'll take 3 from Palm and then deal 15 to you from Valakut triggers instead of doing 18. Against a deck with big creatures, it's like a surprise Boros Charm or more. The downside is that you have to wait until your opponent chooses to do something in order for Palm to work, whereas you can cast Helix/Skullcrack in your draw step for the win.
You should assemble a sideboard based on what you expect to play against.
I think Boros Burn is getting overhyped right now. Atarka's Command is still an upgrade on Skullcrack whether you opt for Wild Nacatl or not, everyone is going to splash G for Destructive Revelry anyway, and Inspiring Vantage is still playable in a Naya shell. I think the emergence of Fatal Push as cheap spot removal makes Nacatls worse, but Nacatl-less Naya can run 4 fastlands and cut down on creatures and still do everything Boros Burn does, only better.
I would like to hear your thoughts on why Boros Burn is overhyped. Personally, I think it is the most consistent (although less explosive) build of Burn in Modern.
naya burn noob here, is it ok if i take a look at what catless naya looks like?
My list is linked in my signature. Maindeck Atarka's Command, no Nacatls.
I love the list! =) So we don't need scalding tarns? I just bought 3 wooded foothills, 3 bloodstained mires and 3 arid mesas in case the last few fetches have to be tarns. Anyway, the one thing that stands out to me is 3 deflecting palms on the side.. you really get to use that many?
In a deck where every fetchable land is a Mountain, all fetches that search for Mountains are identical. You wouldn't need a Scalding Tarn unless you wanted a 13th fetch. Pithing Needle isn't super common in Modern, so it's not very critical to spread out fetches evenly in order to dodge getting shut off by Needle.
Sometimes I play 3 Palms. Sometimes I play 2 Palms and add a Helix/Skullcrack instead. I want 3 when I'm playing against a ROFL-combo creature deck, like Death's Shadow or Infect. In a sense, they serve similar purposes to me. Palm nullifies a lifegain effect and deals damage like Skullcrack does. Against something like Valakut, Palm is basically identical to Helix because they'll take 3 from Palm and then deal 15 to you from Valakut triggers instead of doing 18. Against a deck with big creatures, it's like a surprise Boros Charm or more. The downside is that you have to wait until your opponent chooses to do something in order for Palm to work, whereas you can cast Helix/Skullcrack in your draw step for the win.
You should assemble a sideboard based on what you expect to play against.
Thanks for the explanation. I'll start with 2 and see if I need more from there. How often do you use atarka's command outside of a second skullcrack?
I think Boros Burn is getting overhyped right now. Atarka's Command is still an upgrade on Skullcrack whether you opt for Wild Nacatl or not, everyone is going to splash G for Destructive Revelry anyway, and Inspiring Vantage is still playable in a Naya shell. I think the emergence of Fatal Push as cheap spot removal makes Nacatls worse, but Nacatl-less Naya can run 4 fastlands and cut down on creatures and still do everything Boros Burn does, only better.
I would like to hear your thoughts on why Boros Burn is overhyped. Personally, I think it is the most consistent (although less explosive) build of Burn in Modern.
How is Boros "more consistent" than Naya without Nacatls? You're dropping Atarka's Command for something else that deals 3 damage and costs 2 mana, so they're equally consistent, given that you can color fix properly (which is generally easy to do). Boros is simply less painful because it only has to fetch one color. It's the Nacatl build that is less consistent but more explosive. A build with maindeck Atarka's Command is equally as consistent as Boros and more explosive than Boros while being more painful.
You have access to 14 G and W sources in the manabase I provided, which all but assures you of hitting the colors you need, when you need them. There's no appreciable drop-off in consistency, and the objective power level of Naya's cards is superior.
For those of you running less than 8 Atarka's Command + Skullcrack, do you ever regret this choice? My current list has 4 Command and 3 Skullcrack and while I feel like that's plenty I can't shake the feeling I want as many as I can get, since hte hardest counter to our deck is lifegain.
For those of you running less than 8 Atarka's Command + Skullcrack, do you ever regret this choice? My current list has 4 Command and 3 Skullcrack and while I feel like that's plenty I can't shake the feeling I want as many as I can get, since hte hardest counter to our deck is lifegain.
I run six effects between the mainboard and the sideboard. I'm usually quite happy with that number. Really, the hardest counter to our deck isn't lifegain; rather, it's lifegain plus pressure. I'm add more Searing/Path effects before I added more lifegain hate, because given a long enough timeline Burn will almost certainly win any given matchup. If your meta is completely filled with lifegain, then maybe sure, but imo it's much better to kill the most threatening creature and burn them at the same time.
Since the focus is not on Mardu burn I can't imagine this will see play right now but if the focus ever turns to Mardu I think people might pick it up. Its main failing is it doesn't hit creatures. It's plus is it doesn't target.
I'm pretty sure Gonti's Machinations got mentioned here, if not here it certainly got "omg BURN CARD!" on reddit, just like every other 3 damage spell does. Best case scenario, it's about as slow as Rift Bolt but has no potential to be cast without waiting like Rift Bolt. It's Lightning Helix in its effect, but not many 3 color lists play 4 of those anyway and you'd rather just cast Helix than this. It's not at all viable in Modern Burn.
Well you have no way to cast the first one right away, but if you don't sac it as soon as you have 2 energy, you would probably end up having plenty of energy by the the time you draw a 2nd one
But I still think we are better off with the current burn lists
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"What's your plan?" Gideon asked.
"Are you serious?" Chandra replied.
I think Boros Burn is getting overhyped right now. Atarka's Command is still an upgrade on Skullcrack whether you opt for Wild Nacatl or not, everyone is going to splash G for Destructive Revelry anyway, and Inspiring Vantage is still playable in a Naya shell. I think the emergence of Fatal Push as cheap spot removal makes Nacatls worse, but Nacatl-less Naya can run 4 fastlands and cut down on creatures and still do everything Boros Burn does, only better.
I would like to hear your thoughts on why Boros Burn is overhyped. Personally, I think it is the most consistent (although less explosive) build of Burn in Modern.
How is Boros "more consistent" than Naya without Nacatls? You're dropping Atarka's Command for something else that deals 3 damage and costs 2 mana, so they're equally consistent, given that you can color fix properly (which is generally easy to do). Boros is simply less painful because it only has to fetch one color. It's the Nacatl build that is less consistent but more explosive. A build with maindeck Atarka's Command is equally as consistent as Boros and more explosive than Boros while being more painful.
I agree that it gains explosiveness while hurting itself more. My question is whether it is worth it. With a Naya build with mainboard Atarka's Command we might have to bolt ourselves 2 times in order to get the proper mana base, does this tradeoff pays for itself?
Well you have no way to cast the first one right away, but if you don't sac it as soon as you have 2 energy, you would probably end up having plenty of energy by the the time you draw a 2nd one
But I still think we are better off with the current burn lists
I am aware that you can let it sit on the battlefield until you need it, but its a mistake to evaluate a card based on magical christmasland situations of "but if you draw multiples...". It is still a second copy of an instant with the same effect that doesn't see play as a 4-of outside of RW Burn. I'd rather have a spell I can cast now for 3 damage rather than waiting until right after my opponent kills me with combat damage that would have given me a second energy counter.
I think Boros Burn is getting overhyped right now. Atarka's Command is still an upgrade on Skullcrack whether you opt for Wild Nacatl or not, everyone is going to splash G for Destructive Revelry anyway, and Inspiring Vantage is still playable in a Naya shell. I think the emergence of Fatal Push as cheap spot removal makes Nacatls worse, but Nacatl-less Naya can run 4 fastlands and cut down on creatures and still do everything Boros Burn does, only better.
I would like to hear your thoughts on why Boros Burn is overhyped. Personally, I think it is the most consistent (although less explosive) build of Burn in Modern.
How is Boros "more consistent" than Naya without Nacatls? You're dropping Atarka's Command for something else that deals 3 damage and costs 2 mana, so they're equally consistent, given that you can color fix properly (which is generally easy to do). Boros is simply less painful because it only has to fetch one color. It's the Nacatl build that is less consistent but more explosive. A build with maindeck Atarka's Command is equally as consistent as Boros and more explosive than Boros while being more painful.
I see the reason for playing atarkas command, but I also understand those who dont wanna play it. I think the choice depends on your preferences
That definitely doesn't answer my question, considering the word "consistent" doesn't appear anywhere in the article. I already conceded that maindeck Atarka's Command is more painful, which is really all that the article says about it. However, the claim wasn't that AC is simply more painful therefore it's better to play RW. The claim was that RW is "more consistent" than maindeck AC. That article also claims that AC necessitates 13 fetchlands, which isn't true. I run on 11 fetches 3 Mountains 4 Shocks and 1 Inspiring Vantage and 11 fetches is a pretty standard number of fetches to run.
@mftb: Yes. The explosiveness of maindeck Atarka's Command is worth the extra pain against much of the field. I side it out and play RW in games 2 and 3 when it matters, against Burn for instance.
That's the key point. If the damage downside would be relevant, Atarkommand can simply be sided out to almost no ill effect. I stand by my point that Naya can do everything Boros can do, and more.
I still think it's viable, when your in top deck mode all you do is save your fetches. I get that lightning helix is more consistent, but this costs 1 less for almost the same effect
@mftb: Yes. The explosiveness of maindeck Atarka's Command is worth the extra pain against much of the field. I side it out and play RW in games 2 and 3 when it matters, against Burn for instance.
That's nice. In the mirror you can get a virtual Boros Burn list. However, how does the 2 Stomping Ground treat you?
Is there any chance you could drop to only one Stomping Ground, replacing the other one with an Inspiring Vantage (or maybe even Copperline Gorge)?
I still think it's viable, when your in top deck mode all you do is save your fetches. I get that lightning helix is more consistent, but this costs 1 less for almost the same effect
Lightning Helix can kill creatures, which is a huge plus
This has the upside of going around Leyline, but we encounter problematic creatures more often than we see leylines
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"What's your plan?" Gideon asked.
"Are you serious?" Chandra replied.
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I love the list! =) So we don't need scalding tarns? I just bought 3 wooded foothills, 3 bloodstained mires and 3 arid mesas in case the last few fetches have to be tarns. Anyway, the one thing that stands out to me is 3 deflecting palms on the side.. you really get to use that many?
In a deck where every fetchable land is a Mountain, all fetches that search for Mountains are identical. You wouldn't need a Scalding Tarn unless you wanted a 13th fetch. Pithing Needle isn't super common in Modern, so it's not very critical to spread out fetches evenly in order to dodge getting shut off by Needle.
Sometimes I play 3 Palms. Sometimes I play 2 Palms and add a Helix/Skullcrack instead. I want 3 when I'm playing against a ROFL-combo creature deck, like Death's Shadow or Infect. In a sense, they serve similar purposes to me. Palm nullifies a lifegain effect and deals damage like Skullcrack does. Against something like Valakut, Palm is basically identical to Helix because they'll take 3 from Palm and then deal 15 to you from Valakut triggers instead of doing 18. Against a deck with big creatures, it's like a surprise Boros Charm or more. The downside is that you have to wait until your opponent chooses to do something in order for Palm to work, whereas you can cast Helix/Skullcrack in your draw step for the win.
You should assemble a sideboard based on what you expect to play against.
I would like to hear your thoughts on why Boros Burn is overhyped. Personally, I think it is the most consistent (although less explosive) build of Burn in Modern.
Thanks for the explanation. I'll start with 2 and see if I need more from there. How often do you use atarka's command outside of a second skullcrack?
How is Boros "more consistent" than Naya without Nacatls? You're dropping Atarka's Command for something else that deals 3 damage and costs 2 mana, so they're equally consistent, given that you can color fix properly (which is generally easy to do). Boros is simply less painful because it only has to fetch one color. It's the Nacatl build that is less consistent but more explosive. A build with maindeck Atarka's Command is equally as consistent as Boros and more explosive than Boros while being more painful.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
I run six effects between the mainboard and the sideboard. I'm usually quite happy with that number. Really, the hardest counter to our deck isn't lifegain; rather, it's lifegain plus pressure. I'm add more Searing/Path effects before I added more lifegain hate, because given a long enough timeline Burn will almost certainly win any given matchup. If your meta is completely filled with lifegain, then maybe sure, but imo it's much better to kill the most threatening creature and burn them at the same time.
Mardu Burn
Monogreen Stompy
Legacy
Burn
Pauper
Dimir Flicker
Monowhite Tokens
Yeah its like a weird Rift Bolt Lightning Helix Bump in the Night mix.
Since the focus is not on Mardu burn I can't imagine this will see play right now but if the focus ever turns to Mardu I think people might pick it up. Its main failing is it doesn't hit creatures. It's plus is it doesn't target.
RGWNaya BurnRGW+++RGWKiki ComboRGW
UGInfectUG+++++++++.++++++++UGMerfolkUG
GGNykthos WaveGG++++++++++GGStompyGG
BRVampiresBR+++++++.+++++++BRGoblinsBR
WGBogglesWG+++++++++++++CRSkred RedCR
UBRGDredgeUBRG++++++++++BB8 RackBB
URWJeskaiURW+++.++UBRGrixis DelverUBR
URStormUR++++++++UWGBant CompanyUWG
WUBRGHumansWUBRG+CCEldrazi TronCC
But I still think we are better off with the current burn lists
"Are you serious?" Chandra replied.
I agree that it gains explosiveness while hurting itself more. My question is whether it is worth it. With a Naya build with mainboard Atarka's Command we might have to bolt ourselves 2 times in order to get the proper mana base, does this tradeoff pays for itself?
I am aware that you can let it sit on the battlefield until you need it, but its a mistake to evaluate a card based on magical christmasland situations of "but if you draw multiples...". It is still a second copy of an instant with the same effect that doesn't see play as a 4-of outside of RW Burn. I'd rather have a spell I can cast now for 3 damage rather than waiting until right after my opponent kills me with combat damage that would have given me a second energy counter.
That definitely doesn't answer my question, considering the word "consistent" doesn't appear anywhere in the article. I already conceded that maindeck Atarka's Command is more painful, which is really all that the article says about it. However, the claim wasn't that AC is simply more painful therefore it's better to play RW. The claim was that RW is "more consistent" than maindeck AC. That article also claims that AC necessitates 13 fetchlands, which isn't true. I run on 11 fetches 3 Mountains 4 Shocks and 1 Inspiring Vantage and 11 fetches is a pretty standard number of fetches to run.
@mftb: Yes. The explosiveness of maindeck Atarka's Command is worth the extra pain against much of the field. I side it out and play RW in games 2 and 3 when it matters, against Burn for instance.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
That's nice. In the mirror you can get a virtual Boros Burn list. However, how does the 2 Stomping Ground treat you?
Is there any chance you could drop to only one Stomping Ground, replacing the other one with an Inspiring Vantage (or maybe even Copperline Gorge)?
Lightning Helix can kill creatures, which is a huge plus
This has the upside of going around Leyline, but we encounter problematic creatures more often than we see leylines
"Are you serious?" Chandra replied.