I don't see Keldon Maurauders played much in burn is there a reason why? Card seems insane
Because it's kind of weak compared to the options Burn has available. If you want a 3/3, Wild Nacatl will do it for just G. If you want burn to the face even if it's removed, Eidolon of the Great Revel will do it and punish every other spell until it dies too. And it certainly isn't any better than a burn spell that goes to the face, or a haste creature like Goblin Guide or Monastery Swiftspear. It's just outclassed.
You want Grafdigger's vs Abzan coco so they can't dig out an answer.
1. Satyr Firedancer is just too much of a cutesy play. You have to have him stick. You have to fire off multiple burn spells for him to be better than say searing blood
So, just play searing blood.
2. I always sideboard in Revelry vs Merfolk. You've got 8 GOOD targets. Spreading seas will wreck you. It also helps their devotion for master of waves. Blowing it up is worth every bit of it. Without vial, we can usually outrace them. With it, good luck.
so has anyone tested Grafdiggers cagein the sb for chord/coco decks and dredge? so far the card did absolutley nothing for me. Either i drew it too late/or not at all or they had an answer right away
Drawing cards at poor times or your opponents having an answer is just a part of playing the game. Opponents know what cards hurt their strategies and will bring in cards to compensate. I have won more than a few games with a cage against Dredge, but it needs to come down early or they need to be clunky. I was running a 1-1 split with Cage and RIP but eventually just went with two Cages.
Depending on your meta you could use a card like Torpor Orb to shut down dredge and works against most Eldrazi cards, a bit of an unorthodox card nowadays with Twin gone though.
As I continue to slowly foil out the deck, I've come to a dilemma. I hate some of the Expedition lands, and love others. Anyone else foiled or foiling out burn? Thoughts on land base?
As I continue to slowly foil out the deck, I've come to a dilemma. I hate some of the Expedition lands, and love others. Anyone else foiled or foiling out burn? Thoughts on land base?
I'm about 2/3 foiled. My lands are foiled except for Mesas and 1 Foothills. All of the lands are KTK/RTR block versions. The 1 Inspiring Vantage I have is a pre-release promo that I pulled myself. My mountains are Arena 1999s. The others I'm missing are 4 Boros Charm, 4 Atarka's Command, Lightning Helix, 3 Swiftspear, 4 Guides, 1 Lavamancer, and some Deflecting Palms. If you look at my list on tapped out, it shows what's foiled. The foil Lavamancer I do have is a Torment one.
I wasn't particularly interested in getting Expeditions, so it was an easy decision for me.
As I continue to slowly foil out the deck, I've come to a dilemma. I hate some of the Expedition lands, and love others. Anyone else foiled or foiling out burn? Thoughts on land base?
Personally I think the foil KTK Wooded Foothills is amazing, and the expedition (like most expedition) just seems kinda .... grey and colorless, I prefer the vibrant colors!
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"What's your plan?" Gideon asked.
"Are you serious?" Chandra replied.
Since the main primer here seems to be pretty out of date (I see no mention of Nahiri Jeskai or Dredge, and Amulet Bloom is still in there), would someone be kind enough to write up what Burn's worst matches are? In my experience Merfolk and Death and Taxes are both huge headaches, and Dredge/Affinity tend to be just a bit faster than us, so they can be hard, too (although Dredge seems to be worse). What else am I missing out of Tier 1 and 2?
Since the main primer here seems to be pretty out of date (I see no mention of Nahiri Jeskai or Dredge, and Amulet Bloom is still in there), would someone be kind enough to write up what Burn's worst matches are? In my experience Merfolk and Death and Taxes are both huge headaches, and Dredge/Affinity tend to be just a bit faster than us, so they can be hard, too (although Dredge seems to be worse). What else am I missing out of Tier 1 and 2?
My experience is that RGW Burn has a strong game against all decks that aren't Soul Sisters or Ad Nauseum. The decks you mention feel about 50/50 since it's very dependant on who draws what. On the whole I think Burn is pretty well positioned. Unfortunately it seems like there aren't very many PT/GP level players that play the deck though, so the deck isn't putting up as many results in big tournaments. I do feel like Atara's Command and Destructive Revelry are a large part of what makes the deck good so playing a mono-R or RW version may not be where you want to be for tournaments. For FNM they are fine.
Since the main primer here seems to be pretty out of date (I see no mention of Nahiri Jeskai or Dredge, and Amulet Bloom is still in there), would someone be kind enough to write up what Burn's worst matches are? In my experience Merfolk and Death and Taxes are both huge headaches, and Dredge/Affinity tend to be just a bit faster than us, so they can be hard, too (although Dredge seems to be worse). What else am I missing out of Tier 1 and 2?
My experience is that RGW Burn has a strong game against all decks that aren't Soul Sisters or Ad Nauseum. The decks you mention feel about 50/50 since it's very dependant on who draws what. On the whole I think Burn is pretty well positioned. Unfortunately it seems like there aren't very many PT/GP level players that play the deck though, so the deck isn't putting up as many results in big tournaments. I do feel like Atara's Command and Destructive Revelry are a large part of what makes the deck good so playing a mono-R or RW version may not be where you want to be for tournaments. For FNM they are fine.
As a counter point, one of the two burn decks that made top 32 at the most recent SCG is straight boros burn.
That's the first result I've seen out of Boros Burn in months, though. Naya is by far the deck with the most proven track record. As far as matchups go, here's my general impression of how Burn matches up against the tiered decks:
Favorable
8-Rack (discard.dec hurts your hand, but it dies to your creatures)
Death's Shadow (self-harm.dec against Burn? Easy money)
Elves (play a game of Bolt-the-dork and beat them down with creatures)
Grixis Control (painful manabase and slow finishers)
Grixis Delver (this deck's manabase and cantrips are painful, and their counterspell lineup isn't deep enough to stuff all your Bolts)
Infect (the deck is trying to kill you with 1/1s and pump. Bolt or Deflecting Palm them to death and they can't win)
Jeskai Ascendancy (is trying to set up a fragile and somewhat clunky combo)
Living End (the namesake sorcery takes a while to get going, and they can't do much about your Bolts)
Mardu (painful manabase, has little interaction for your Bolts, and not the fastest deck)
Pyromancer Ascension (this deck durdles around setting up Thing in the Ice and its namesake enchantment, which you can punish) RG Tron (you punish the fact that they spend their first few turns digging for land instead of interacting with you)
Temur Midrange (awkward manabase, and a bit of a durdly deck)
Titan Breach/Titanshift (spends the early turns ramping, and its manabase can ping it a bit) U Tron (slow and has trouble killing creatures if they resolve) UR Prowess (this deck is capable of some powerful attacks, but it does a ton of damage to itself) UW Control (gives you tons of time to kill them)
Even
Abzan (beware of Kitchen Finks, Siege Rhino, and discard)
Affinity (they're faster than you, but you can interact with them pretty well. Revelry is insane here)
Amulet Titan (kill their Sakura-Tribe Scout/Azusa, Lost but Seeking, or you're in for a bad time)
Bant Eldrazi (Burn is somewhat powerless against their fast hands, but if you slow them down, you can win easily. Bring in Paths)
Bushwhacker Zoo (about as close to a mirror match as it gets)
Dredge (pretty much a race. Their manabase is painful but they can assemble a lot of power quickly)
Griselbrand (this deck either rips you for a fast combo finish or you exploit the fact that Griselbrand costs them life)
Jeskai Control (a Nahiri, the Harbinger ult is game over if it lands, but you have some time until that comes to pass)
Jund (if they don't blow up your hand with discard or if Kalitas doesn't stick, you should be fine. Bring in Paths)
Kiki Chord (lifegain utility dudes can hurt you, but if those don't get there quick you can win)
Knightfall (their manabase is painful and they have dorks for you to zap, but getting blown out by Spell Queller or Collected Company really hurts)
As you can see, most of the matchups are positive, which is why the deck is Tier 1. That said, the matchups against Tier 1/2 are a bit dicier, which is why Burn rewards tight play.
That's the first result I've seen out of Boros Burn in months, though. Naya is by far the deck with the most proven track record. As far as matchups go, here's my general impression of how Burn matches up against the tiered decks:
Favorable
8-Rack (discard.dec hurts your hand, but it dies to your creatures)
Death's Shadow (self-harm.dec against Burn? Easy money)
Elves (play a game of Bolt-the-dork and beat them down with creatures)
Grixis Control (painful manabase and slow finishers)
Grixis Delver (this deck's manabase and cantrips are painful, and their counterspell lineup isn't deep enough to stuff all your Bolts)
Infect (the deck is trying to kill you with 1/1s and pump. Bolt or Deflecting Palm them to death and they can't win)
Jeskai Ascendancy (is trying to set up a fragile and somewhat clunky combo)
Living End (the namesake sorcery takes a while to get going, and they can't do much about your Bolts)
Mardu (painful manabase, has little interaction for your Bolts, and not the fastest deck)
Pyromancer Ascension (this deck durdles around setting up Thing in the Ice and its namesake enchantment, which you can punish) RG Tron (you punish the fact that they spend their first few turns digging for land instead of interacting with you)
Temur Midrange (awkward manabase, and a bit of a durdly deck)
Titan Breach/Titanshift (spends the early turns ramping, and its manabase can ping it a bit) U Tron (slow and has trouble killing creatures if they resolve) UR Prowess (this deck is capable of some powerful attacks, but it does a ton of damage to itself) UW Control (gives you tons of time to kill them)
Even
Abzan (beware of Kitchen Finks, Siege Rhino, and discard)
Amulet Titan (kill their Sakura-Tribe Scout/Azusa, Lost but Seeking, or you're in for a bad time)
Bant Eldrazi (Burn is somewhat powerless against their fast hands, but if you slow them down, you can win easily. Bring in Paths)
Bushwhacker Zoo (about as close to a mirror match as it gets)
Dredge (pretty much a race. Their manabase is painful but they can assemble a lot of power quickly)
Griselbrand (this deck either rips you for a fast combo finish or you exploit the fact that Griselbrand costs them life)
Jeskai Control (a Nahiri, the Harbinger ult is game over if it lands, but you have some time until that comes to pass)
Jund (if they don't blow up your hand with discard or if Kalitas doesn't stick, you should be fine. Bring in Paths)
Kiki Chord (lifegain utility dudes can hurt you, but if those don't get there quick you can win)
Knightfall (their manabase is painful and they have dorks for you to zap, but getting blown out by Spell Queller or Collected Company really hurts)
As you can see, most of the matchups are positive, which is why the deck is Tier 1. That said, the matchups against Tier 1/2 are a bit dicier, which is why Burn rewards tight play.
Really awesome, thorough list, rothgar. Thanks a bunch. I see you're in charge of the Merfolk primer--if the person who made the Burn primer isn't still around, would you ever think about taking this one over? I feel like you'd really do it justice.
I actually hadn't seen that list. I stand corrected. That said, anything that isn't Nacatl Burn should be considered a fringe variant by now. Of the 63 Burn decks that have placed in MTGTop8 over the last 2 months, 50 (79.4%) have Wild Nacatl in them. If we want to narrow it down further, 59 (93.6%) run Atarka's Command (which means that they are in Naya colors). So yeah, Boros Burn really isn't a thing anymore. I stand by that.
As for the primer... I'm not sure. I'm not the most dedicated Burn player (as noted, I am in charge of the Merfolk primer, and that is the deck I play most by far), and primers are a lot of time and effort to upkeep.
Well the original author to this primer has been inactive since April of 2016 so it might be worthwhile for someone to take over to keep this thread current. I would love to update their primer however, I've only been playing burn for roughly 3 months and Magic in general for 10 months. I'm still learning lots about Magic, Modern, and my Burn deck
I really don't think you can go wrong with Boros Burn or Naya Burn (with or without Nacatls). I think the different variants probably matchup with different metas better than others. The only way to figure which version of Burn is the best would be to run simulations of Magic pitting each deck against the 'current' meta game. However, I believe the % differences between all three versions of Burn are probably negligible at this point because no one can say for certain which version is best. As long as you have a way to get rid of Leyline of Sanctity, then your deck has a decent chance of winning against every matchup (you can still win against LoS without enchantment removal but it is extremely difficult).
So I've been looking at whether I want to play Relic of Progenitus or Tormod's Crypt in the board as graveyard hate. I know Relic is the favoured card, but I like that Crypt doesn't cost mana to play or activate and leaves my graveyard intact for Grim Lavamancer and I was just wondering what everyone's thoughts were.
I would race. You don't want to be trying to beat a Master of Waves with them having more than 5-6 life, so try to kill them before that happens. As far as the sideboard goes, Wear // Tear will do some work for you, but you probably don't need 5 pieces of artifact hate. I would trim either a Wear or a Smash along with Dragon's Claw for Lightning Helix.
Great info running 3 or 4 main lightning helix , I'll post a deck list soon yeah can't decide what to cut. Smash is so good agai affinity but wear tear is my only enchantment hate. Maybe I'll use the one damage per creature clause on rakdos charm as bonus affinity hate. And cut the smash. Hmm but three wear tears seems like too much
To be completely honest, I feel that anyone not running Nacatl Burn is leaving percentage points on the table. I've tested every Burn variant, and that is definitely the strongest. In the case of your list, one thing I forgot to mention is that Path to Exile is very strong in the current metagame, where you have to get rid of everything from Kitchen Finks to Thought-Knot Seer to Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet to Master of Waves. You should definitely play that. You also need a Grim Lavamancer or two. Lightning Helix is more efficient than Dragon's Claw (which is a T2 do-nothing), and I'm a fan of Self-Inflicted Wound over Crackling Doom (holy color intensiveness, Batman!). Last but not least, 4 Skullcrack effects in the 75, no exceptions. Don't get blown out by lifegain.
Because it's kind of weak compared to the options Burn has available. If you want a 3/3, Wild Nacatl will do it for just G. If you want burn to the face even if it's removed, Eidolon of the Great Revel will do it and punish every other spell until it dies too. And it certainly isn't any better than a burn spell that goes to the face, or a haste creature like Goblin Guide or Monastery Swiftspear. It's just outclassed.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
1. Satyr Firedancer is just too much of a cutesy play. You have to have him stick. You have to fire off multiple burn spells for him to be better than say searing blood
So, just play searing blood.
2. I always sideboard in Revelry vs Merfolk. You've got 8 GOOD targets. Spreading seas will wreck you. It also helps their devotion for master of waves. Blowing it up is worth every bit of it. Without vial, we can usually outrace them. With it, good luck.
Drawing cards at poor times or your opponents having an answer is just a part of playing the game. Opponents know what cards hurt their strategies and will bring in cards to compensate. I have won more than a few games with a cage against Dredge, but it needs to come down early or they need to be clunky. I was running a 1-1 split with Cage and RIP but eventually just went with two Cages.
Depending on your meta you could use a card like Torpor Orb to shut down dredge and works against most Eldrazi cards, a bit of an unorthodox card nowadays with Twin gone though.
I'm about 2/3 foiled. My lands are foiled except for Mesas and 1 Foothills. All of the lands are KTK/RTR block versions. The 1 Inspiring Vantage I have is a pre-release promo that I pulled myself. My mountains are Arena 1999s. The others I'm missing are 4 Boros Charm, 4 Atarka's Command, Lightning Helix, 3 Swiftspear, 4 Guides, 1 Lavamancer, and some Deflecting Palms. If you look at my list on tapped out, it shows what's foiled. The foil Lavamancer I do have is a Torment one.
I wasn't particularly interested in getting Expeditions, so it was an easy decision for me.
Personally I think the foil KTK Wooded Foothills is amazing, and the expedition (like most expedition) just seems kinda .... grey and colorless, I prefer the vibrant colors!
"Are you serious?" Chandra replied.
Mardu Burn
Monogreen Stompy
Legacy
Burn
Pauper
Dimir Flicker
Monowhite Tokens
My experience is that RGW Burn has a strong game against all decks that aren't Soul Sisters or Ad Nauseum. The decks you mention feel about 50/50 since it's very dependant on who draws what. On the whole I think Burn is pretty well positioned. Unfortunately it seems like there aren't very many PT/GP level players that play the deck though, so the deck isn't putting up as many results in big tournaments. I do feel like Atara's Command and Destructive Revelry are a large part of what makes the deck good so playing a mono-R or RW version may not be where you want to be for tournaments. For FNM they are fine.
As a counter point, one of the two burn decks that made top 32 at the most recent SCG is straight boros burn.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=108813
My H/W list
Favorable
8-Rack (discard.dec hurts your hand, but it dies to your creatures)
Death's Shadow (self-harm.dec against Burn? Easy money)
Elves (play a game of Bolt-the-dork and beat them down with creatures)
Grixis Control (painful manabase and slow finishers)
Grixis Delver (this deck's manabase and cantrips are painful, and their counterspell lineup isn't deep enough to stuff all your Bolts)
Infect (the deck is trying to kill you with 1/1s and pump. Bolt or Deflecting Palm them to death and they can't win)
Jeskai Ascendancy (is trying to set up a fragile and somewhat clunky combo)
Living End (the namesake sorcery takes a while to get going, and they can't do much about your Bolts)
Mardu (painful manabase, has little interaction for your Bolts, and not the fastest deck)
Pyromancer Ascension (this deck durdles around setting up Thing in the Ice and its namesake enchantment, which you can punish)
RG Tron (you punish the fact that they spend their first few turns digging for land instead of interacting with you)
Temur Midrange (awkward manabase, and a bit of a durdly deck)
Titan Breach/Titanshift (spends the early turns ramping, and its manabase can ping it a bit)
U Tron (slow and has trouble killing creatures if they resolve)
UR Prowess (this deck is capable of some powerful attacks, but it does a ton of damage to itself)
UW Control (gives you tons of time to kill them)
Even
Abzan (beware of Kitchen Finks, Siege Rhino, and discard)
Affinity (they're faster than you, but you can interact with them pretty well. Revelry is insane here)
Amulet Titan (kill their Sakura-Tribe Scout/Azusa, Lost but Seeking, or you're in for a bad time)
Bant Eldrazi (Burn is somewhat powerless against their fast hands, but if you slow them down, you can win easily. Bring in Paths)
Bushwhacker Zoo (about as close to a mirror match as it gets)
Dredge (pretty much a race. Their manabase is painful but they can assemble a lot of power quickly)
Griselbrand (this deck either rips you for a fast combo finish or you exploit the fact that Griselbrand costs them life)
Jeskai Control (a Nahiri, the Harbinger ult is game over if it lands, but you have some time until that comes to pass)
Jund (if they don't blow up your hand with discard or if Kalitas doesn't stick, you should be fine. Bring in Paths)
Kiki Chord (lifegain utility dudes can hurt you, but if those don't get there quick you can win)
Knightfall (their manabase is painful and they have dorks for you to zap, but getting blown out by Spell Queller or Collected Company really hurts)
Unfavorable
Abzan Company (they ramp out Kitchen Finks and have an infinite life combo. Needless to say, challenging)
Ad Nauseam (their combo clock is very reliable, and Angel's Grace/Phyrexian Unlife do a number on Burn)
Bogles (Daybreak Coronet. That is all)
Death & Taxes (Leonin Arbiter and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben mess with your mana, and their assorted list of weenies finish you off)
Merfolk (a fast beats clock combined with counterspells and the likes of Master of Waves, Spreading Seas, and Tidebinder Mage is tough to beat)
RW Lockdown (Chalice of the Void and Lightning Helix in the main. Nuff said)
Soul Sisters (lifegain.dec. Need I say more?)
As you can see, most of the matchups are positive, which is why the deck is Tier 1. That said, the matchups against Tier 1/2 are a bit dicier, which is why Burn rewards tight play.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Really awesome, thorough list, rothgar. Thanks a bunch. I see you're in charge of the Merfolk primer--if the person who made the Burn primer isn't still around, would you ever think about taking this one over? I feel like you'd really do it justice.
Mardu Burn
Monogreen Stompy
Legacy
Burn
Pauper
Dimir Flicker
Monowhite Tokens
It doesn't have the same results as naya, but to say it hasn't put up ANY results in months in incredibly misleading.
My H/W list
As for the primer... I'm not sure. I'm not the most dedicated Burn player (as noted, I am in charge of the Merfolk primer, and that is the deck I play most by far), and primers are a lot of time and effort to upkeep.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
I really don't think you can go wrong with Boros Burn or Naya Burn (with or without Nacatls). I think the different variants probably matchup with different metas better than others. The only way to figure which version of Burn is the best would be to run simulations of Magic pitting each deck against the 'current' meta game. However, I believe the % differences between all three versions of Burn are probably negligible at this point because no one can say for certain which version is best. As long as you have a way to get rid of Leyline of Sanctity, then your deck has a decent chance of winning against every matchup (you can still win against LoS without enchantment removal but it is extremely difficult).
I play mardu burn.
2x rain of gore
1x skullcrack
2x rakdos charm
2x dragon's claw
3x wear // tear
2x deflecting palm
2x smash to smithereens
1x crackling doom
Running 1 main skullcrack.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
4 Goblin guide
4 monastery swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great revel
instants sorceries
4 lightning bolt
4 boros charm
4 lava spike
4 bump in the night
4 rift bolts
3 searing blaze
1 skullcrack
4 bloodstained mire
4 wooded foothills
4 sacred foundry
4 blood crypt
3 mountain
1 dragonskull summit
2x rain of gore
1x skullcrack
2x rakdos charm
2x dragon's claw
3x wear // tear
2x deflecting palm
2x smash to smithereens
1x crackling doom
i have some more burn laying around in case the meta changes.
how do you feel about self inflicted wound and crackling doom.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers: