@Rothgar Because no one runs dedicated hate against us, i'm absolutely sure we are not T1.
The counterpoint to that is that dedicated hate against us doesn't really exist in this format. Most individual cards that bother us only address one part of what we can do (they have to be combined with other things in order to reliably beat us), and we can usually fend them off with our disruption.
As for Selfless Spirit... it's certainly an interesting option to side in for a Kira, Great Glass-Spinner when facing sweepers. I'd be tempted to include it in the 75 if I were playing WU.
@velysarn well said...i would love to hug your right now
Very nervous because Sunday I have my first big pptq with 50+ players....any advice for a very big/open event like this? Specially for side board.
I think you'll do fine, sibin. As far as sideboard tech... I'd say make sure you have at least 4 (and preferably 6, from what I'm seeing) counterspells in your 75. Our permission package is well-positioned right now.
Pretty big PPTQ coming up for me Saturday. All the DFW grinders are going to be there as it's week 2 of Dublin RPTQ invites. I think there is going to be a lot of people on Little Zoo (the "big bad end bossy team" should be playing it) and I'm fairly nervous about that deck because I lost to it at the Open pretty convincingly. The rest should be your standard fare probably with a little more emphasis on Infect than normal. Tidebinders in the main for sure!
How do most of you guys trim down your last few slots in your lists? I run 61 card main as a general preference however, still tend to have 1 to 2 cards I want in the deck somewhere.
Right now my list matches most of the forum's.
12 lords
4 master waves
4 silvergill
4 cursecatcher
4 vial
4 seas
20 land including 4 mutavault, 2 cavern, oboro and minamo
4 slots currently 2 spell Pierce, 2 dismember
And 4 slots 2 harbinger. 2 tidebinder.
61st card is a toss up between a 3rd Harbinger, or 3rd dismember thanks to the forum.
Sb is atm
4 hurkylls
2 relic of progenitus
2 negate
2 dispel
2 kira
3 tectonic edge
However I still feel I'm going to need a 3rd tidebinder somewhere, and Vendillion Clique has always been really good to me in spots as a 1 or 2 of....
So my question is, being that I've rarely if ever played with tec edge or kira, how important are they really? The last time I gave kira a chance was 2 to 3 years ago and she was Really lackluster. Then again I had a litteral Ton of Fluff in that list so it may be related. I may post it later so we can laugh at how things have changed.
How necessary is dismember currently? Should 2 copies be enough? Was there ever any consensus on vapor snag vs dismember vs spell Pierce or is it still a styling question?
Thanks for your help! Looking forward to a win a mox tourney next week!
Pretty big PPTQ coming up for me Saturday. All the DFW grinders are going to be there as it's week 2 of Dublin RPTQ invites. I think there is going to be a lot of people on Little Zoo (the "big bad end bossy team" should be playing it) and I'm fairly nervous about that deck because I lost to it at the Open pretty convincingly. The rest should be your standard fare probably with a little more emphasis on Infect than normal. Tidebinders in the main for sure!
Tidebinder and Harbinger them to death. I run 4 of each in my 75 along with 2 Dispel, and Gruul Zoo hasn't been much of a problem.
2x Cavern of Souls
2x Wanderwine Hub
1x Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1x Minamo, School at Water`s Edge
4x Mutavault
10x Island
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Master of the Pearl Trident
4x Cursecatcher
4x Silvergil Adept
4x Master of Waves
2x Harbinger of Tides
2x Tidebinder Mage
3x Merrow Reejerey
1x Kira, Great Glass Spinner
1x Kira, Great Glass Spinner
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Dispel
2x Negate
1x Swan Song
4x Sea`s Claim (Yes, I love it, and works very well for me XD)
2x Spellskite
1x Dismember
What about Bribery as a sideboard option (speacially against grindy matches)?
Targets:
Jund - Kalitas or Goyf
Abzan - Rhino or Goyf
Jeskai - Emrakul (!)
Grixis - Tasigur or Gurmag Angler
Tron - Ulamog or Wurmcoil Engine
Bant Eldrazi - Drowner of Hope, Reality Smasher or Thought-Knot Seer
i've been playing 1 bribery in the side of the mono-u turns deck and it has ended the game every time i have cast it. not sure it's what we want in this deck though. 5 mana is way too much
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No Recalls? I take it you're not expecting much Affinity. The numbers say you should - Burn is the Tier 1 aggro deck that's down at the moment.
Trying Nikachus and Petr idea about pray to dodge all Affinity around. Do you think it`s too risk ?
I do think it's a bit risky right now, yes. You probably could have gotten away with it a month ago, but now I'm not so sure. I may be misreading your meta (or assuming it's too much like the global meta), but I think Affinity's on an uptick.
Essentially, I'm prioritizing my tempo/creature package over land hate in the form of Tectonic Edge. The matchups that I feel suffer the most from my decision are RGTron, Jeskai Control, and any deck rocking Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle, but I would contend that I remain favored in the first two, and I rarely encounter the latter. I think this deck is a pretty playable 75 - what say you?
CoBTyrannon, I say slight to overlook the anxiety issues I cause myself right before an event where I question my choices until I wind up with God knows what in my deck.
As a whole, we all seem to agree that 12 lords, 4 waves, 4 catchers and 4 adepts, alongside 4 vials, 4 seas, and 20 lands is vital to the deck being itself. We also seem to agree that 4 or 5 Interactive spells and 3 to 4 more creatures (either with an etb effect or is Kira) is where we want to be currently.
By slight I mean the biggest change between lists I see often are which 4 spells to use, often a mix of vapor snag, spell pierce, and dismember.
4 harbingers was almost core up until recently where a typically Meta inspired card like tidebinder became more maindeckable.
Even the sideboard to me is becoming almost core.
4 hurkyls recall
4 negate/dispel/unified will/remand/swan song...
2 relics or other gravehate
....then thats where it varies.
Unless affinity is guarenteed not to show, even then some number of recalls tend to only be replaced with echoing truths so.....
Forgive me, but slight, feels right.
If I am overlooking something obvious please show me, just finished yet another 10hr shift at work.
after some considerations and opinions from some amazing players here, I changed the list for the brazilian PPTQ tomorrow:
Main Deck:
2x Cavern of Souls
2x Wanderwine Hub
1x Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1x Minamo, School at Water`s Edge
4x Mutavault
10x Island
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Master of the Pearl Trident
4x Cursecatcher
4x Silvergil Adept
4x Master of Waves
2x Harbinger of Tides
2x Tidebinder Mage
3x Merrow Reejerey
1x Kira, Great Glass Spinner
For the second week in a row I got wrecked by Soul Sisters!!! Can anyone help me on this matchup? I feel like the only thing that helps after sideboard is a Chalice. Any advice?! =/
I am not an expert, but I do get to play against this matchup a lot. I have a friend who plays this as their primary deck. I have always found Ratchet Bomb out of the SB has worked well for me. Chalice of the Void has been good, but seemed less consistent to me. I had to get it out at the right time in order for it to be effective and not a dead draw. The best times I have dominated the matchup has been messing with their mana using 8 Seas effects with Spreading Seas and Sea's Claim.
Sea's Claim has worked pretty well for me. It has been a real help in a lot of matches. Most surprising to me, it has helped a great deal in my matchup with Burn. At least this year, I have found Sea's Claim to be more effective in that matchup than Chalice. Since the versions I have played against seem to run a lot of cards with 2CMC or more, Chalice on 1 was less effective than wrecking their mana base. Particularly since they only run 17-19 lands.
I am a fan of Sea's Claim added to Spreading Seas. It just works with my play style I guess.
For the second week in a row I got wrecked by Soul Sisters!!! Can anyone help me on this matchup? I feel like the only thing that helps after sideboard is a Chalice. Any advice?! =/
I am not an expert, but I do get to play against this matchup a lot. I have a friend who plays this as their primary deck. I have always found Ratchet Bomb out of the SB has worked well for me. Chalice of the Void has been good, but seemed less consistent to me. I had to get it out at the right time in order for it to be effective and not a dead draw. The best times I have dominated the matchup has been messing with their mana using 8 Seas effects with Spreading Seas and Sea's Claim.
I can see Ratchet Bomb being a good answer, but to date I have struggled to justify it's inclusion. Being that I'm seeing a lot of Affinity, Infect, Burn, Zoo etc I may try it out.
I'm a bit surprised at your 8 Seas being effective against a mono-colored deck however. I suppose it's more consistent in preventing gy recursion, but with their curve being so low I wouldn't think of this as a sound strategy. Anybody else have expereince using this tactic against Soul Sisters?
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U Merfolk U
WUBRGPeopleGRBUW
U Turbo Turns U
UB Fae BU
WBG Aristocrats GBW
The counterpoint to that is that dedicated hate against us doesn't really exist in this format. Most individual cards that bother us only address one part of what we can do (they have to be combined with other things in order to reliably beat us), and we can usually fend them off with our disruption.
As for Selfless Spirit... it's certainly an interesting option to side in for a Kira, Great Glass-Spinner when facing sweepers. I'd be tempted to include it in the 75 if I were playing WU.
I think you'll do fine, sibin. As far as sideboard tech... I'd say make sure you have at least 4 (and preferably 6, from what I'm seeing) counterspells in your 75. Our permission package is well-positioned right now.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Modern UMerfolkU
Legacy UMerfolkU
Standard XWhatever's GoodX
Right now my list matches most of the forum's.
12 lords
4 master waves
4 silvergill
4 cursecatcher
4 vial
4 seas
20 land including 4 mutavault, 2 cavern, oboro and minamo
4 slots currently 2 spell Pierce, 2 dismember
And 4 slots 2 harbinger. 2 tidebinder.
61st card is a toss up between a 3rd Harbinger, or 3rd dismember thanks to the forum.
Sb is atm
4 hurkylls
2 relic of progenitus
2 negate
2 dispel
2 kira
3 tectonic edge
However I still feel I'm going to need a 3rd tidebinder somewhere, and Vendillion Clique has always been really good to me in spots as a 1 or 2 of....
So my question is, being that I've rarely if ever played with tec edge or kira, how important are they really? The last time I gave kira a chance was 2 to 3 years ago and she was Really lackluster. Then again I had a litteral Ton of Fluff in that list so it may be related. I may post it later so we can laugh at how things have changed.
How necessary is dismember currently? Should 2 copies be enough? Was there ever any consensus on vapor snag vs dismember vs spell Pierce or is it still a styling question?
Thanks for your help! Looking forward to a win a mox tourney next week!
Tidebinder and Harbinger them to death. I run 4 of each in my 75 along with 2 Dispel, and Gruul Zoo hasn't been much of a problem.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Main Deck:
2x Cavern of Souls
2x Wanderwine Hub
1x Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1x Minamo, School at Water`s Edge
4x Mutavault
10x Island
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Master of the Pearl Trident
4x Cursecatcher
4x Silvergil Adept
4x Master of Waves
2x Harbinger of Tides
2x Tidebinder Mage
3x Merrow Reejerey
1x Kira, Great Glass Spinner
4x Aether Vial
4x Spreading Seas
3x Dismember
1x Vapor Snag
Sideboard:
1x Kira, Great Glass Spinner
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Dispel
2x Negate
1x Swan Song
4x Sea`s Claim (Yes, I love it, and works very well for me XD)
2x Spellskite
1x Dismember
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Trying Nikachus and Petr idea about pray to dodge all Affinity around. Do you think it`s too risk ?
Targets:
Jund - Kalitas or Goyf
Abzan - Rhino or Goyf
Jeskai - Emrakul (!)
Grixis - Tasigur or Gurmag Angler
Tron - Ulamog or Wurmcoil Engine
Bant Eldrazi - Drowner of Hope, Reality Smasher or Thought-Knot Seer
i've been playing 1 bribery in the side of the mono-u turns deck and it has ended the game every time i have cast it. not sure it's what we want in this deck though. 5 mana is way too much
U Merfolk U
WUBRGPeopleGRBUW
U Turbo Turns U
UB Fae BU
WBG Aristocrats GBW
I'd really like to see what you cut to be able to include a full set of Harbinger and Tidebinder and why.
I do think it's a bit risky right now, yes. You probably could have gotten away with it a month ago, but now I'm not so sure. I may be misreading your meta (or assuming it's too much like the global meta), but I think Affinity's on an uptick.
Sure. My list looks like this:
4 Æther Vial
Creatures (28)
4 Cursecatcher
4 Harbinger of the Tides
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Master of Waves
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Spreading Seas
Instants (4)
2 Spell Pierce
2 Vapor Snag
Lands (20)
2 Cavern of Souls
10 Island
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
4 Mutavault
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
2 Wanderwine Hub
2 Dispel
4 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Negate
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Spellskite
4 Tidebinder Mage
Essentially, I'm prioritizing my tempo/creature package over land hate in the form of Tectonic Edge. The matchups that I feel suffer the most from my decision are RGTron, Jeskai Control, and any deck rocking Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle, but I would contend that I remain favored in the first two, and I rarely encounter the latter. I think this deck is a pretty playable 75 - what say you?
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
I've found that the difference between most lists are very slight, maybe up to 4 cards main and a handful of sideboard space.
Another main diference is youve cut Kira entirely, have you missed her or dismember at all?
Against jund do you go up to 32 creatures postboard?
I like the game plan vs deaths shadow and infect of going up to the full 12 "etb" 'Folk postboard.
Is there anything you find you would like to add if you had more space?
Thanks for being such a big part of the forum Rothgar. Both in modern and legacy. I tend to agree with your school of thought.
As a whole, we all seem to agree that 12 lords, 4 waves, 4 catchers and 4 adepts, alongside 4 vials, 4 seas, and 20 lands is vital to the deck being itself. We also seem to agree that 4 or 5 Interactive spells and 3 to 4 more creatures (either with an etb effect or is Kira) is where we want to be currently.
By slight I mean the biggest change between lists I see often are which 4 spells to use, often a mix of vapor snag, spell pierce, and dismember.
4 harbingers was almost core up until recently where a typically Meta inspired card like tidebinder became more maindeckable.
Even the sideboard to me is becoming almost core.
4 hurkyls recall
4 negate/dispel/unified will/remand/swan song...
2 relics or other gravehate
....then thats where it varies.
Unless affinity is guarenteed not to show, even then some number of recalls tend to only be replaced with echoing truths so.....
Forgive me, but slight, feels right.
If I am overlooking something obvious please show me, just finished yet another 10hr shift at work.
Main Deck:
2x Cavern of Souls
2x Wanderwine Hub
1x Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1x Minamo, School at Water`s Edge
4x Mutavault
10x Island
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Master of the Pearl Trident
4x Cursecatcher
4x Silvergil Adept
4x Master of Waves
2x Harbinger of Tides
2x Tidebinder Mage
3x Merrow Reejerey
1x Kira, Great Glass Spinner
4x Aether Vial
4x Spreading Seas
3x Dismember
1x Vapor Snag
Sideboard:
1x Kira, Great Glass Spinner
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Dispel
2x Negate
1x Tidebinder Mage
4x Sea`s Claim
3x Hurkyl’s Recall
Seas Claims did very well for me in the past, specially against Jund and others with sensive mana base
I'll do a report tomorrow night! Thanks again
I am not an expert, but I do get to play against this matchup a lot. I have a friend who plays this as their primary deck. I have always found Ratchet Bomb out of the SB has worked well for me. Chalice of the Void has been good, but seemed less consistent to me. I had to get it out at the right time in order for it to be effective and not a dead draw. The best times I have dominated the matchup has been messing with their mana using 8 Seas effects with Spreading Seas and Sea's Claim.
I am a fan of Sea's Claim added to Spreading Seas. It just works with my play style I guess.
I'm a bit surprised at your 8 Seas being effective against a mono-colored deck however. I suppose it's more consistent in preventing gy recursion, but with their curve being so low I wouldn't think of this as a sound strategy. Anybody else have expereince using this tactic against Soul Sisters?