I think a 3 vizier/1 anafenza is a fine idea. I don't think I would ever go without some kind of main deck protection card - skite, anafenza or saffi.
I maintain that I would play 4 township before 2, and same with canopy. I am pretty confident the 23 lands with 3-4 townships and 3 canopies is right even with more mana creatures. One extra business spell is almost always worse than hitting your 4th land drop at a reasonable time and being able to convert that into a spell if needed. More than ever we want to hit 4-5 lands in attrition heavy matchups so we can chord for 2 or coco or activate township without dorks, especially post board.
I like your sideboard. I expect an uptick in degenerate combo in response to company so I would bring a second storm hate card (canonist), and pontiff feels like a must have creature as well. I would add a sin collector and a pontiff and a canonist, in short. But that's just my read on the meta and may be wrong.
I like the second pridemage.
I have had very good results with deadeye harpooner as a creature killing card. May be considered over a 3rd removal spell. The downside of setup cost is usually less than the fiendhunter just getting removed in my experience but YMMV.
The sideboard is intentionally incomplete as I'd like to get everyone's thoughts on this before I finalize it.
The cards at hand and their roles: Abrupt Decay: Catch all 3cmc removal. Generally broad; dont want to run too much as it's not chord/coco friendly. Anafenza: I'm not sold on this spot. I need something for GY hate; and this seems to be the best solution that's asymmetrical. Living end and Dredge are still tricky, though. Burrenton Forge-tender: Pretty straight forward. May swap for a Kor Firewalker, but BFT is better for Anger of the Gods we might see. Eidolon: Storm; with splash uses on decks that we want to try to keep tempo parity with. Linvala: Mirror Path to Exile: Obviously when removal is needed. I feel like 3x is the right number Sideboard. Pharika: For decks that run heavy removal. Creates yet another value engine and chumps death's shadow very well. Nice utility. Phyrexian Revoker: Obviously a pithing needle on wheels. I like this against Tron where we can normally combo off T3-T4 uninterrupted, but if we need to buy a few turns this shuts down Karn in a pinch. Qasali Pridemage: I feel like I should just board this in 100% of the time. Most decks are going to be running Cages or RIP against us sideboard. May as well have it proactively.
Other thoughts:
I've noticed an uptick in surgical extraction / extirpate effected on MTGO lately. I'm considering a singleton Anafenza, Kin Tree Spirit as an alternate means to combo infinite life off finks, in the face of an extraction on Vizier (Which seems to be the pick, as people have figured out its the common card in two combos). Thoughts on this gameplan?
Open to any other criticism. I'd say the least used card mainboard of mine is the Selfless Spirit; but every so often it gets me there. I'm almost inclined to swap that for the Anafenza.
I'm also feeling like a Fiend Hunter should be in the 75. Normally he just feels like a dead draw, but if we're expecting Linvala in the mirror (or in other white decks) we need a tutorable way to deal with it.
More thoughts on matchups (or specifically, the bad ones):
- Living End is a pain. Remember to kill your Druid in response to a living end cascade spell. You want this in your graveyard when it resolves. Once they land a Living end it tends to be a 2-turn clock. Having the druid on board can be the difference between a combo finish and dying quickly. Generally unfavored
- Death and Taxes can be tricky. Between their tax effects, sideboard options, and ability to manipulate your ability to search / tutor, it can be rather tough. Tax their removal as much as possible, and often I'll find myself leaning on Duskwatch Recruiter to find missing combo pieces rather than CoCo/Chord. Slightly unfavored but close
- URx Control still feels impossible. They have the same level of recursion and resiliance as us with Snapcaster, and they run a LOT of removal that hits us. Electrolyze, Bolts, Snapcaster, makes it really tough to get a combo online. Generally ends up being a fair gameplan here. Gavony Township and Finks tend to be the MVP. Way unfavored
Other than these 3, I feel pretty good in most matchups. Death's Shadow can be very swingy. They have a lot of pressure and discard, but if you can constantly threaten the combo, its pretty probable you can stick it at some point. Grixis Death's Shadow is another story. Similar to the URx control above. They dont generally have Snapcaster, but they have removal and a faster clock than URx control.
Maybe Anafenza Kin-tree Spirit over Rhonas? It gives you inifinte bolster/attack as an alternate win con.
Spellskites in the main help a ton against UR. I don't run Rallier, I run 2 Spellskites and 1 Fairgrounds Warden instead.
Scavenging Ooze in the side helps against Snapcaster.
Consider Spellskite instead of Selfless Spirit main? Burrenton Forge Tender and Selfless Spirit are good in the board - you can bring them in when you know there are board sweepers coming.
Leylines help against Death Shadow discard/liliana, and give free wins against burn. You can also bring them in against Scapeshift/storm and other random things.
1 Qasali Pridemage & 1 Rec Sage is probably better than 2 Pridemage.
Linvala is a must in the board for the mirror, along with another Fairgrounds Warden/Fiend Hunter. Also consider Orzhov Pontif.
Eidolon is good against storm/ad naus. Also consider Kambal, Counsul of Allocation, and Sin Collector.
Ok so I'm late from reporting anything about the GP from last weekend... There have been wayyyy too many replies to go back and quote them all so hopefully if anyone has questions you ask, as I am also a bit crunched for time right now so I'll only elaborate on the biggest stuff.
I played several events and varied the deck a few times. This was the deck I pretty much settled on.
22 Lands. With 11 dorks there is more than enough mana to go around in the deck, consistently cast Collected Company on turn 3, and have mana for Gavony Township.
I traded all my junk and finally picked up 2 Horizon Canopies among other things! They didn't come up often as I had no truly grindy games, but when I needed an extra card they were there. They also open up many tricks with Courser of Kruphix and infinite Duskwatch/Viscera Seer activations.
Rhonas was very good, but I never attacked with him in a single game. In about 4-5 games I just happened to put him in play with Collected Company and he stayed there until I combo'd off. I did cast him on turn 2 in 2 games, and the rest I drew him with Duskwatch. This was never a bad thing, because the alternatives were Ballista immediately dying or being cast for ~2 and vulnerable to graveyard hate. As I have said before, if you are playing a dedicated wincon, play Rhonas.
3 Vizier of Remedies was a good number. There were a few times I would have really liked 4 in the deck. Some games I had to race to combo off turn 3 (vs. Storm and Tron) so I would dig as far as I could and sometimes it wasn't god enough. Still, 3 allowed the combo to happen on turn 3 regularly while giving another slot maindeck which I liked.
I wasn't super impressed by Renegade Rallier postboard. Most people bring in grave hate, and Grafdigger's Cage is the new popular card vs us since Rest in Peace doesn't 'work' anymore. Maybe I'll try two, but I found myself siding it out a lot. It is getting a new promo printing though, so I'll probably have to play even more to hit critical mass for the foil-promo deck.
- Burrenton Forge-Tender and Selfless Spirit vs Anger of the Gods and Supreme Verdict which are gaining popularity.
- Eidolon of Rhetoric vs Storm which is gaining popularity, Ad Nauseum, Living End, other random combo decks...
- Qasali Pridemage and Reclamation Sage artifact and enchantment hate. Mostly for Grafdigger's Cage and RIP.
- Tidehollow Sculler and Sin Collector against combo decks that have minimal interaction. We are fast enough to race now, but there are always a few dead cards so siding them out for the few extra percentage points is nice.
- Orzhov Pontiff vs Elves, Affinity, Merfolk, the mirror, etc... It is harder to do the sacrifice trick with it now that we play less Seer but it is still nice to have.
- Pharika, God of Affliction wins grindy matchups. Jund and Grixis don't have a way to remove her and she eventually takes over. I have probably a 100% winrate against decks when she is played lategame. Gravehate is also slightly less common I've been finding as people are preferring Cage over RIP.
- Courser of Kruphix Also for grindy midrange games. Gives a lot of card advantage and removes dead draws. Stonewalls Burn and some other decks too which is nice.
- Path to Exile gives a bit of interaction for decks that go over us but don't pay a ton of threats or have a few must-deal-with like Deaths Shadow, Titan Shift, Eldrazi, etc... Abrupt Decay is great vs Blue decks and can get rid of any problem permanent including Cage, RIP, Suppression Field, and more.
Again if anyone has questions about the list that I left out or was too brief about I can answer them later.
I really like your list Torpf. What I'll say is that Rallier is much better in bunches. I am not sure I would run it as a 1 or 2-of. I have 4 and so it's more consistent that I am able to enable revolt, and I run 3 canopy which is more fodder for it.
The thing I love about it is that Rallier-canopy plays around cage very well, and even rallying fetches can be great since it further enables ralliers.
I would play the 4th township over the rallier in your build. Township is much more powerful now. I see tons of games lost that would be rolled immediately by just drawing township.
Everything else looks just super close to how I'd do it, very impressed with the build.
Q: I'd be most interested in hearing how your games vs. big mana decks went.
And
Q2: If you look at games where you had Rhonas, how much better or worse would Mirror Entity have been? (My exp. thus far is Entity was 100% of the time better)
Leap acting as a combo piece (almost) with any creature + druid + vizier is pretty desirable. Generally think Pharika is better in that slot since it beats lots of grixis' counterspells and also beats abrupt decay but I can see the case for leap.
I really like your list Torpf. What I'll say is that Rallier is much better in bunches. I am not sure I would run it as a 1 or 2-of. I have 4 and so it's more consistent that I am able to enable revolt, and I run 3 canopy which is more fodder for it.
The thing I love about it is that Rallier-canopy plays around cage very well, and even rallying fetches can be great since it further enables ralliers.
I would play the 4th township over the rallier in your build. Township is much more powerful now. I see tons of games lost that would be rolled immediately by just drawing township.
Everything else looks just super close to how I'd do it, very impressed with the build.
Yeah the list is streamlined to combo off faster than pretty much anything else, and can come back through disruption. What I didn't like was getting my hand ripped apart by like 3 discards from Death's Shadow and then having to topdeck 0/X's for the rest of the game. these midrange matchups are where I usually side out the dorks and go full-value myself in a attempt to outgrind the opponent. Rallier is great for this because he does work well with the combo game 1 as well as game 2/3 for outvaluing the opponent. The problem is that a lot of the most powerful cards at the 3cmc slot, so unless I am playing Voice of Resurgence I don't think I'd increase the Rallier count at all. I did play an event with 2 Voices in the side, but never got matched up against anything to warrant bringing them in against... It seems like a good idea on paper, but also completely changes what the deck is trying to do in a way so I am wary of it. Time will tell.
Q: I'd be most interested in hearing how your games vs. big mana decks went.
They were the best actually . During the weekend I was 2-0 vs RG Titan Valakut (survived a hit from an Emrakul in one match and combo'd off T3/T4 every other time), I was 0-1 vs RG Tron which I will detail a bit more below, and 1-0 vs Eldrazi. We are just faster with the mana then they are (assuming we don't get wiped by an Anger of the Gods or something) so it is possible to get a turn ahead of them and just combo off. They don't play a ton of interaction game 1 so it is easier to race.
Q2: If you look at games where you had Rhonas, how much better or worse would Mirror Entity have been? (My exp. thus far is Entity was 100% of the time better)
I never intentionally put Rhonas into play, it was always a "Oh hey, he got revealed off of Company so I guess I'll play him now and not have to get a Duskwatch later." Every time I did this he just sat in play until I won, and because Path to Exile is the only thing that can reasonably remove him it's a pretty safe thing to do. I had a game vs. Storm and RG Titan Valakut where he was my T2 play and just sat there the rest of the game, a few games where he came off Company, and a few where I had to go find him. He kinda got rid of the need for the 'third combo piece' in a way as usually that is Duskwatch who is super fragile if played early. In all of the matches I played I think there were maybe 2 games where I had a large enough board that having a Mirror Entity would have won me a turn earlier or something. That said in the games where I played him T2 or eot off of a company I was left open and any sort of removal would have killed it. Grave hate is abundant and having to fetch you wincon from the yard isn't a great idea, hence why I don't like Ballista. I understand why Entity is good, I just think we can still get there in games with Rhonas. It does suck that he is never really active though. Voice token/Tracker/KotR could fix that easily I'd imagine but then we are diluting the deck.
I played one before but moved up to a second. I found there was too many times where I would just have to play it naturally and it would die and I wouldn't be able to get it back. That or I would have infinite mana, some amount of Companies/Witnesses and would have to dig for them to actually win. Digging for one card in your deck this way is a huge gamble and the redundancy is nice. It was also surprisingly useful in DS games when we both got to topdeck mode. He started drawing cards and could pull out wins if not answered. I'd compare him to Dark Confidant in a way. I think I'll be sticking with 2 for now.
@Torpf your list is very very close to mine. I like that there seems to be some degree of consensus.
How did you do?
In 3 4 round events I went 3-1, 3-1, 2-2. Matches I lost I always had infinite mana on turn 3 or 4 and nothing to follow it up with, the only exception being vs DS decks as they ripped apart my hand too much. Was always salty about that.
I take it you aren't in favour of tidehollow sculler as a sideboard option? Although not quite as effective as normal hand disruption (i.e. Thoughtseize, Inquisition) I've found them quite useful for slowing down the opponent while also flooding the board. Which if you run Gavony township means you can turn your value creatures into potential threats. Appreciate the card isn't for anyone.
If you're struggling with spot removal have you considered the following: intrepid hero, big game hunter, garza's assassin or royal assassin. Obviously each of these creatures has its own benefits but tried to suggest ones that can be hit off CoCo or easily chordable.
I quite like using x2 path and x1 maelstrom pulse. Everything else in my sideboard is creature based so that I don't have to cut CoCo or chord when sideboarding.
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More or less running smooth. I want to fit an Anafenza, but the percentage points she gives against surgical extraction is less than I feel Selfless Spirit gives me, so Spirit stuck. I dont think any less than 4 Vizier is correct.
Open to thoughts and suggestions before I print my DCI list!
Deck looks really good and virtually the same as my list. The only thing I have different (excluding 1 or 2 sideboard pieces) is I favour mirror entity over Rhonas.
I've been debating where I can fit an Anafenza in.... think I will likely drop 1 vizier for an Anafenza so a 3/1 split.
Good luck though. Will be keen to hear results!
Edit: just seen your reason for opting for Rhonas over entity.
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This is what I played at my LGS the other night. The meta seems to mostly be fast decks (combo, aggro, burn) and a decent chunk of control, so that's why I gave Mirror Entity a shot. And of course the obligatory Tron decks and smattering of fair decks like DS/Abzan (I think I saw a faeries deck too). Maybe I should be playing something else, but this deck seems cool and this is what I built, so screw it.
MD Pridemage seemed good in theory (hits Tron junk, Unlife, affinity), but it should probably be in the board for the 4th Witness. It feels bad cutting Scooze or Fiend Hunter. I'm still waiting on Canopies but when I do get them I'd like to fit in a Rallier or two, so they might have to go anyways.
I won't do a full report on my games but I will post some quick thoughts. I played against 4C Control (L), Merfolk (W), Breach-Shift (W), and UW Control (L) for a record of 2-2.
- 4C control seems unwinable. Mostly an extension of the URx problem. Snap-Anger maindeck is gross.
- There was a game against Merfolk where Mirror Entity wouldn't have won on the spot where Rhonas would. I could make infinite powered-guys but he had two blockers for my two attackers, and I had a good chance of dying to the swingback if he had some lords + seas. Ended up not mattering as I assembled infinite life + bolster instead.
- Mirror Entity did win me a game Rhonas would not have, though. Against Breach-Shift my board was Recruiter, Druid, Noble, Noble. I activate Recruiter EOT, find Entity, and have enough lands to play it and activate it for x=3 on my turn. Druid let me get two more mana AND untap it to make it a 5/5 with two -1/-1 counters on it, so I could attack for 18 that turn (he was at 16). Good synergy there.
- Entity feels real bad against Control, where you need to apply pressure and don't want to tap out to threaten a Company. Rhonas probably has this same problem, but you get 9/turn with a bear and 3 mana so it's potentially better.
- Turn 1 Grafdiggers Cage makes me sad, and people are bringing in multiples. I figured I'd just try to play more fair in my deck construction but that's tough. Just gonna echo the need 2-3 Pridemage/Rec Sage in the 75 and make the adjustment.
- The UW Control pilots I talked to felt that the matchup was in Company's favor, for what it's worth. That deck seems to be the current flavor of control decks so that's good news if true. I lost due to my own misplays and a sideboarded Porphyry Nodes, which is brutal against us. Although, it was late and no one RTFC to realize it should go away after a Verdict.
re: Link
I'm up to 2 pridemages and 1 rec sage in the board. Hopefully I can just punish people for mulling to hate.
I don't really understand fiend hunter or scooze in the main deck anymore, but to each their own. It's tough to dig that we're transitioning into a combo deck but I think it's where we are. It's pretty rare for a scooze or fiend hunter to enable you to win game 1s. They're great game 2 sometimes.
Entity -- my opinion hasn't changed much on it but Entity is much better against uninteractive decks. Against a control deck we need less help. Entity improves our bad matchups (big mana, aggro, combo) and is OK against control. It's worse than Rhonas against snapcaster decks but we're already fairly good against those. Entity has won me countless games in situations where Rhonas would do nothing.
FNM plans!
Gonna try a 1-of secret weapon tonight -- Sarkhan Vol. I forgot he gave your dudes haste. Just one in the board in place of the second Nahiri but it seems like it might be reasonable.
I also went up a Deadeye harpooner as I literally have always wanted to see one. It's gross against decks that have to attack to win.
My board is light on control hate this week - just two planeswalkers really - but I just haven't been seeing it. It's possible Whisperwood is still reasonable but I have yet to board it in.
Good night tonight. I savaged my way to a 4-0. Notes are loose.
M1 - 2-0 vs. Jund (play)
Game one I beat a bob by chaining cocos until I can combo him out. The mana advantage was too much. I mulled to 5 that included land canopy hierarch rallier chord and just topdecked like a champion into devoted druid bird coco into vizier. Only one piece of discard thankfully. The win was somewhat lucky as I had to pass the turn to him with infinite mana and no kill, then canopy drew a coco into duskwatch recruiter in response to removal on druid. Pretty lucksacky.
Game 2 he let me untap with a devoted druid so I chalk that up to not knowing the deck, I was able to coco into vizier in response to an upkeep devoted druid terminate and then chord for selfless spirit due to an absurd sequence of dorks and renegade rallier'ing back a dead druid. The kill was wolf run but I forget how it got there.
M2 2-1 vs. Affinity (draw)
Game 1 he had a fairly fast plating draw and I missed with my T3 coco to lose, had vizier in hand. Coco miss was one hierarch. Woof.
Game 2 his draw was somewhat anemic and I made my most savage fiery justice ever killing an ornithopter and a memnite and a signal pest and two glimmervoids on turn 3. T5 kill with wolf run off the top.
Game 3 he mulls to 5 and eats a t3 combo (druid coco into vizier and duskwatch).
M3 2-1 vs. Gifts Storm (play)
Game 1 he combo kills me turn 3, I had t4 kill in hand.
Game 2 have druid and chord but have to pass because I have no outlet, chord for an eidolon in response to baral and he has no answers. I woulda killed him wolf run as my next topdeck was vizier.
Game 3 He misses a land drop turn 3 and passes with baral I kill him turn 3 on draw with coco into vizier, chord for entity.
M4 2-0 vs. BW Tokens (draw)
Game 1 is THE THOUGHTSEIZENING as he thoughtseizes 3 cocos (one from a witness) and inquisitions a chord and the second Ewit into coco gets him. He almost pulls it out but zealouses at an inopportune time, I am able to chord for a witness get a coco and kill him turn 5 by ralliering back my dead vizier.
Game 2 Is just renegade rallier doing the lord's work rallying back dead dudes until he taps out and I chord for a druid, untap and kill him T5. Rallier is effing grotesque.
The deck felt unstoppable tonight. I was pretty lucky overall, most of my cocos did not hit witnesses or ralliers but hit combo pieces all night long.
Some highlights:
I brought Sarkhan in and he was not drawn but only vs. Jund. Seems crappy in my shop, probably just wishful thinking.
Rallier was one of my MVPs tonight. Rallied a lot of combo pieces back.
There was Fiery Justice!
I saw almost no hate. It was nice, but I was prepared to beat it.
Deadeye Harpooner was almost insane multiple time, but I lollercombo'd instead. I had the choice between comboing and killing an Olivia at one point and decided to win
Mana dorks are insane guys. The mana advantage we have now because druid is such a priority target is gross. I really believe we should be playing 4 townships in the Abzan version.
Zealous persecution is gross. I almost beat it with mirror entity but was a mana short. I missed pontiff. Woulda been a ridiculous blowout.
Overall pretty happy with the board, but still want to fit a canonist in there. Storm is very close.
I expect people will start preparing for me, but it feels like some draws are just unbeatable and the speed and consistency are hard to beat with hate.
Watching the coco mirror between DeCandio and Dan Jessup. Craig Krempels pretty clearly has no idea how the deck works and thinks it's 100% a combo deck. He literally called the deck bad if you're not comboing lol. I wonder how long before people realize it's just a good midrange creature deck too.
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That match was a pretty great example of the turn 3 combo. I'm a little nervous on the deck's behalf at this point to be honest but it sure is powerful.
Definitely picking up a harsh mentor after this, as I expect to see an uptick in the mirror.
I maintain that I would play 4 township before 2, and same with canopy. I am pretty confident the 23 lands with 3-4 townships and 3 canopies is right even with more mana creatures. One extra business spell is almost always worse than hitting your 4th land drop at a reasonable time and being able to convert that into a spell if needed. More than ever we want to hit 4-5 lands in attrition heavy matchups so we can chord for 2 or coco or activate township without dorks, especially post board.
I like your sideboard. I expect an uptick in degenerate combo in response to company so I would bring a second storm hate card (canonist), and pontiff feels like a must have creature as well. I would add a sin collector and a pontiff and a canonist, in short. But that's just my read on the meta and may be wrong.
I like the second pridemage.
I have had very good results with deadeye harpooner as a creature killing card. May be considered over a 3rd removal spell. The downside of setup cost is usually less than the fiendhunter just getting removed in my experience but YMMV.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Maybe Anafenza Kin-tree Spirit over Rhonas? It gives you inifinte bolster/attack as an alternate win con.
Spellskites in the main help a ton against UR. I don't run Rallier, I run 2 Spellskites and 1 Fairgrounds Warden instead.
Scavenging Ooze in the side helps against Snapcaster.
Consider Spellskite instead of Selfless Spirit main? Burrenton Forge Tender and Selfless Spirit are good in the board - you can bring them in when you know there are board sweepers coming.
Leylines help against Death Shadow discard/liliana, and give free wins against burn. You can also bring them in against Scapeshift/storm and other random things.
1 Qasali Pridemage & 1 Rec Sage is probably better than 2 Pridemage.
Linvala is a must in the board for the mirror, along with another Fairgrounds Warden/Fiend Hunter. Also consider Orzhov Pontif.
Eidolon is good against storm/ad naus. Also consider Kambal, Counsul of Allocation, and Sin Collector.
My current board is something like this:
1 Fairgrounds Warden
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Sin Collector
1 ??
I'm not sure if you need stuff like Abrupt Decay or Path to Exile.
I've been running 21 land with only 1 Township and 1 Canopy. It leaves me room for an Eldritch Evolution.
My current main list:
1x Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Devoted Druid
2x Duskwatch Recruiter
3x Eternal Witness
1x Fairgrounds Warden
4x Kitchen Finks
2x Noble Hierarch
2x Spellskite
2x Viscera Seer
4x Vizier of Remedies
1x Walking Ballista
//Spells
4x Chord of Calling
4x Collected Company
1x Eldritch Evolution
3x Forest
1x Gavony Township
1x Godless Shrine
1x Horizon Canopy
2x Marsh Flats
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
3x Razorverge Thicket
2x Temple Garden
2x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Fairgrounds Warden
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Sin Collector
1 ??
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StaffI played several events and varied the deck a few times. This was the deck I pretty much settled on.
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Viscera Seer
4 Devoted Druid
3 Vizier of Remedies
1 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
2 Duskwatch Recruiter
0 Krallenhorde Howler
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Spellskite
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Eternal Witness
1 Renegade Rallier
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
4 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
Lands
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
1 Razorverge Thicket
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Gavony Township
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Sin Collector
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
- Eidolon of Rhetoric vs Storm which is gaining popularity, Ad Nauseum, Living End, other random combo decks...
- Qasali Pridemage and Reclamation Sage artifact and enchantment hate. Mostly for Grafdigger's Cage and RIP.
- Tidehollow Sculler and Sin Collector against combo decks that have minimal interaction. We are fast enough to race now, but there are always a few dead cards so siding them out for the few extra percentage points is nice.
- Orzhov Pontiff vs Elves, Affinity, Merfolk, the mirror, etc... It is harder to do the sacrifice trick with it now that we play less Seer but it is still nice to have.
- Pharika, God of Affliction wins grindy matchups. Jund and Grixis don't have a way to remove her and she eventually takes over. I have probably a 100% winrate against decks when she is played lategame. Gravehate is also slightly less common I've been finding as people are preferring Cage over RIP.
- Courser of Kruphix Also for grindy midrange games. Gives a lot of card advantage and removes dead draws. Stonewalls Burn and some other decks too which is nice.
- Path to Exile gives a bit of interaction for decks that go over us but don't pay a ton of threats or have a few must-deal-with like Deaths Shadow, Titan Shift, Eldrazi, etc... Abrupt Decay is great vs Blue decks and can get rid of any problem permanent including Cage, RIP, Suppression Field, and more.
Again if anyone has questions about the list that I left out or was too brief about I can answer them later.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
The thing I love about it is that Rallier-canopy plays around cage very well, and even rallying fetches can be great since it further enables ralliers.
I would play the 4th township over the rallier in your build. Township is much more powerful now. I see tons of games lost that would be rolled immediately by just drawing township.
Everything else looks just super close to how I'd do it, very impressed with the build.
Q: I'd be most interested in hearing how your games vs. big mana decks went.
And
Q2: If you look at games where you had Rhonas, how much better or worse would Mirror Entity have been? (My exp. thus far is Entity was 100% of the time better)
Q3: How good was second duskwatch?
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
How did you do?
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
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StaffThey were the best actually
I never intentionally put Rhonas into play, it was always a "Oh hey, he got revealed off of Company so I guess I'll play him now and not have to get a Duskwatch later." Every time I did this he just sat in play until I won, and because Path to Exile is the only thing that can reasonably remove him it's a pretty safe thing to do. I had a game vs. Storm and RG Titan Valakut where he was my T2 play and just sat there the rest of the game, a few games where he came off Company, and a few where I had to go find him. He kinda got rid of the need for the 'third combo piece' in a way as usually that is Duskwatch who is super fragile if played early. In all of the matches I played I think there were maybe 2 games where I had a large enough board that having a Mirror Entity would have won me a turn earlier or something. That said in the games where I played him T2 or eot off of a company I was left open and any sort of removal would have killed it. Grave hate is abundant and having to fetch you wincon from the yard isn't a great idea, hence why I don't like Ballista. I understand why Entity is good, I just think we can still get there in games with Rhonas. It does suck that he is never really active though. Voice token/Tracker/KotR could fix that easily I'd imagine but then we are diluting the deck.
I played one before but moved up to a second. I found there was too many times where I would just have to play it naturally and it would die and I wouldn't be able to get it back. That or I would have infinite mana, some amount of Companies/Witnesses and would have to dig for them to actually win. Digging for one card in your deck this way is a huge gamble and the redundancy is nice. It was also surprisingly useful in DS games when we both got to topdeck mode. He started drawing cards and could pull out wins if not answered. I'd compare him to Dark Confidant in a way. I think I'll be sticking with 2 for now.
In 3 4 round events I went 3-1, 3-1, 2-2. Matches I lost I always had infinite mana on turn 3 or 4 and nothing to follow it up with, the only exception being vs DS decks as they ripped apart my hand too much. Was always salty about that.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Big mana feels OK now. Not amazing but decent. Long as they ain't playing Pyroclasm I think we don't have to just hope to dodge anymore.
I think if I was running Abzan I might run a second duskwatch too.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
200% on a second Duskwatch. He's excellent in grindy games too. He's half a coco in a pinch and generates draw
If you're struggling with spot removal have you considered the following: intrepid hero, big game hunter, garza's assassin or royal assassin. Obviously each of these creatures has its own benefits but tried to suggest ones that can be hit off CoCo or easily chordable.
I quite like using x2 path and x1 maelstrom pulse. Everything else in my sideboard is creature based so that I don't have to cut CoCo or chord when sideboarding.
Everyone loves an angry mob RWG
Why so Bloo? RU
2 Forest
3 Gavony Township
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
1 Razorverge Thicket
3 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
Spells:
4 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Devoted Druid
2 Duskwatch Recruiter
4 Eternal Witness
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Renegade Rallier
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Viscera Seer
4 Vizier of Remedies
1 Walking Ballista
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Path to Exile
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Sin Collector
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
1 Phrexian Revoker
1 Spellskite
More or less running smooth. I want to fit an Anafenza, but the percentage points she gives against surgical extraction is less than I feel Selfless Spirit gives me, so Spirit stuck. I dont think any less than 4 Vizier is correct.
Open to thoughts and suggestions before I print my DCI list!
That's a point of debate throughout this thread and I dont completely agree - but I'm open to being wrong.
However, I dont think I'd be comfortable punching Mirror Entity into my build this late in the game. I'd want more lead time to test it.
By all means share your reasoning for it though! Perhaps I've overlooked something
I've been debating where I can fit an Anafenza in.... think I will likely drop 1 vizier for an Anafenza so a 3/1 split.
Good luck though. Will be keen to hear results!
Edit: just seen your reason for opting for Rhonas over entity.
Everyone loves an angry mob RWG
Why so Bloo? RU
1x Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Devoted Druid
2x Duskwatch Recruiter
3x Eternal Witness
1x Fiend Hunter
4x Kitchen Finks
1x Mirror Entity
3x Noble Hierarch
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Selfless Spirit
1x Viscera Seer
3x Vizier of Remedies
2x Forest
3x Gavony Township
1x Godless Shrine
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
2x Razorverge Thicket
1x Swamp
2x Temple Garden
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
Instant (8)
4x Chord of Calling
4x Collected Company
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1x Orzhov Pontiff
3x Path to Exile
2x Sin Collector
2x Tidehollow Sculler
1x Tireless Tracker
2x Voice of Resurgence
MD Pridemage seemed good in theory (hits Tron junk, Unlife, affinity), but it should probably be in the board for the 4th Witness. It feels bad cutting Scooze or Fiend Hunter. I'm still waiting on Canopies but when I do get them I'd like to fit in a Rallier or two, so they might have to go anyways.
I won't do a full report on my games but I will post some quick thoughts. I played against 4C Control (L), Merfolk (W), Breach-Shift (W), and UW Control (L) for a record of 2-2.
- 4C control seems unwinable. Mostly an extension of the URx problem. Snap-Anger maindeck is gross.
- There was a game against Merfolk where Mirror Entity wouldn't have won on the spot where Rhonas would. I could make infinite powered-guys but he had two blockers for my two attackers, and I had a good chance of dying to the swingback if he had some lords + seas. Ended up not mattering as I assembled infinite life + bolster instead.
- Mirror Entity did win me a game Rhonas would not have, though. Against Breach-Shift my board was Recruiter, Druid, Noble, Noble. I activate Recruiter EOT, find Entity, and have enough lands to play it and activate it for x=3 on my turn. Druid let me get two more mana AND untap it to make it a 5/5 with two -1/-1 counters on it, so I could attack for 18 that turn (he was at 16). Good synergy there.
- Entity feels real bad against Control, where you need to apply pressure and don't want to tap out to threaten a Company. Rhonas probably has this same problem, but you get 9/turn with a bear and 3 mana so it's potentially better.
- Turn 1 Grafdiggers Cage makes me sad, and people are bringing in multiples. I figured I'd just try to play more fair in my deck construction but that's tough. Just gonna echo the need 2-3 Pridemage/Rec Sage in the 75 and make the adjustment.
- The UW Control pilots I talked to felt that the matchup was in Company's favor, for what it's worth. That deck seems to be the current flavor of control decks so that's good news if true. I lost due to my own misplays and a sideboarded Porphyry Nodes, which is brutal against us. Although, it was late and no one RTFC to realize it should go away after a Verdict.
I'm up to 2 pridemages and 1 rec sage in the board. Hopefully I can just punish people for mulling to hate.
I don't really understand fiend hunter or scooze in the main deck anymore, but to each their own. It's tough to dig that we're transitioning into a combo deck but I think it's where we are. It's pretty rare for a scooze or fiend hunter to enable you to win game 1s. They're great game 2 sometimes.
Entity -- my opinion hasn't changed much on it but Entity is much better against uninteractive decks. Against a control deck we need less help. Entity improves our bad matchups (big mana, aggro, combo) and is OK against control. It's worse than Rhonas against snapcaster decks but we're already fairly good against those. Entity has won me countless games in situations where Rhonas would do nothing.
FNM plans!
Gonna try a 1-of secret weapon tonight -- Sarkhan Vol. I forgot he gave your dudes haste. Just one in the board in place of the second Nahiri but it seems like it might be reasonable.
I also went up a Deadeye harpooner as I literally have always wanted to see one. It's gross against decks that have to attack to win.
My board is light on control hate this week - just two planeswalkers really - but I just haven't been seeing it. It's possible Whisperwood is still reasonable but I have yet to board it in.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Devoted Druid
4x Eternal Witness
4x Kitchen Finks
4x Vizier of Remedies
2x Duskwatch Recruiter
2x Noble Hierarch
2x Viscera Seer
1x Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
1x Fiend Hunter
1x Scavenging Ooze
Spells(8)
4x Collected Company
4x Chord of Calling
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
3x Forest
2x Gavony Township
2x Horizon Canopy
2x Overgrown Tomb
2x Temple Garden
1x Godless Shrine
1x Plains
1x Razorverge Thicket
1x Swamp
3x Path to Exile
2x Tireless Tracker
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Burrenton Forge-Tender
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Orzhov Pontiff
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sin Collector
1x Spellskite
I agree that Scooze or Fiend Hunter may not need a place in the MD anymore but testing will tell.
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor
M1 - 2-0 vs. Jund (play)
Game one I beat a bob by chaining cocos until I can combo him out. The mana advantage was too much. I mulled to 5 that included land canopy hierarch rallier chord and just topdecked like a champion into devoted druid bird coco into vizier. Only one piece of discard thankfully. The win was somewhat lucky as I had to pass the turn to him with infinite mana and no kill, then canopy drew a coco into duskwatch recruiter in response to removal on druid. Pretty lucksacky.
Game 2 he let me untap with a devoted druid so I chalk that up to not knowing the deck, I was able to coco into vizier in response to an upkeep devoted druid terminate and then chord for selfless spirit due to an absurd sequence of dorks and renegade rallier'ing back a dead druid. The kill was wolf run but I forget how it got there.
M2 2-1 vs. Affinity (draw)
Game 1 he had a fairly fast plating draw and I missed with my T3 coco to lose, had vizier in hand. Coco miss was one hierarch. Woof.
Game 2 his draw was somewhat anemic and I made my most savage fiery justice ever killing an ornithopter and a memnite and a signal pest and two glimmervoids on turn 3. T5 kill with wolf run off the top.
Game 3 he mulls to 5 and eats a t3 combo (druid coco into vizier and duskwatch).
M3 2-1 vs. Gifts Storm (play)
Game 1 he combo kills me turn 3, I had t4 kill in hand.
Game 2 have druid and chord but have to pass because I have no outlet, chord for an eidolon in response to baral and he has no answers. I woulda killed him wolf run as my next topdeck was vizier.
Game 3 He misses a land drop turn 3 and passes with baral I kill him turn 3 on draw with coco into vizier, chord for entity.
M4 2-0 vs. BW Tokens (draw)
Game 1 is THE THOUGHTSEIZENING as he thoughtseizes 3 cocos (one from a witness) and inquisitions a chord and the second Ewit into coco gets him. He almost pulls it out but zealouses at an inopportune time, I am able to chord for a witness get a coco and kill him turn 5 by ralliering back my dead vizier.
Game 2 Is just renegade rallier doing the lord's work rallying back dead dudes until he taps out and I chord for a druid, untap and kill him T5. Rallier is effing grotesque.
The deck felt unstoppable tonight. I was pretty lucky overall, most of my cocos did not hit witnesses or ralliers but hit combo pieces all night long.
Some highlights:
I brought Sarkhan in and he was not drawn but only vs. Jund. Seems crappy in my shop, probably just wishful thinking.
Rallier was one of my MVPs tonight. Rallied a lot of combo pieces back.
There was Fiery Justice!
I saw almost no hate. It was nice, but I was prepared to beat it.
Deadeye Harpooner was almost insane multiple time, but I lollercombo'd instead. I had the choice between comboing and killing an Olivia at one point and decided to win
Mana dorks are insane guys. The mana advantage we have now because druid is such a priority target is gross. I really believe we should be playing 4 townships in the Abzan version.
Zealous persecution is gross. I almost beat it with mirror entity but was a mana short. I missed pontiff. Woulda been a ridiculous blowout.
Overall pretty happy with the board, but still want to fit a canonist in there. Storm is very close.
I expect people will start preparing for me, but it feels like some draws are just unbeatable and the speed and consistency are hard to beat with hate.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
Definitely picking up a harsh mentor after this, as I expect to see an uptick in the mirror.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall