Here is my list for FNM tomorrow night. Couple of meta-calls... Qasali MB for a Blue Moon player carrying Blood Moon MB. Couple of trial moves (not defending either) with Quillspike and Wooded Bastion. Definitely want the Wall of Roots, can go down T2 with DD sometimes. SB Eidolon for our local Storm player, I would love VoR mainboard, but couldn't muster it. Still not sure what Maelstrom Pulse is in there for, but since so many folks have run 2, am trusting its needed. Otherwise nothing rocket science.
Game 1 vs. DSJ, on the draw
Opening hand: temple garden, plains, foothills, rallier, rallier, chord, flickerwisp
Keep, though hand is very sketchy it is hard to send back a functional 7 vs. DSJ who will take all your cards anyway.
T3
Him: Swamp, kolaghan's command himself and make me discard (I discard lavamancer) --> 13 (This play was bad)
me: draw/Play foothills, fetch stomping ground, rallier back lavamancer --> 17
T4
Him: Goyf, traverse for wraith, cycle -> 11
Me: play foothills, pass --> 17
T5
Him: overgrown tomb untapped (9), ghor clan goyf attack for 9 (no blocks), traverse for shadow play shadow --> 9
Combat step cast fetch, coco for druid + vizier ( 16), no blocks (7)
Me: draw wolf run, Untap, play vizier, play wolf run, kill.
I think the mistake he made was not sandbagging the kolaghan's, could have stayed in it. Not sure this match was winnable because I'd have rallied the druid back and been able to block profitably.
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Game 2 (still preboard)
OH: heath, heath, hierarch, rallier, coco, coco, duskwatch recruiter (grossss)
On the play
Turn 3
Me: Draw temple garden, play temple untapped, pass --> 15
Him: (recruiter flip) Tomb untapped, Ik entity, swing 5 (blocked), post combat play shadow. --> 12
I fetch forest (14) and cast coco in combat, hitting lavamancer + vizier, Chump with lavamancer -- this was incorrect, he played a post combat death's shadow I could have killed with it, and I should have just taken the beats.
Turn 4
Me: (Recruiter flip face up) play foundry untapped --> 12
Him: (flip) play stomping ground untapped (10), goyf swing, block with noble hierarch. Traverses for a forest thinking he hadn't a land drop, plays Lily and makes us both discard (I coco in response hitting witness + druid, witness back coco, discard something)
Editorial: I blocked with hierarch to enable revolt in case I hit a rallier with coco. Left the foundry untapped previously in case I wanted to wait and cast coco at a different time based on some line of play (e.g. if he cast a main phase Little Lily and shot it down I still wanted to be able to coco in combat and potentially blow him out).
Turn 5
Me: untap, kill with infinite duskwatch.
Hey he didn't find removal again. Bad beats. Not sure anything but a runner runner thoughtseize was taking this one though since I had double cocos. Had I played correctly I don't think this game was ever winnable.
So far my take is if he doesn't find more than one creature AND removal and discard this is unwinnable; just gives too much time. There are lots of potential outs but once we start casting cocos it's hard to come back. Druid and dorks really tax the removal. I do miss township in this match though because wolf run is mana intensive to trade for their creatures.
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Game 3
Opening hand: Mull 6, plains, witness, stomping ground, wolf run, rallier, temple garden (Scry a rallier on top; should have bottomed, this probly cost me any chance of playing magic here -- thought I had a fetch and didn't)
Turn 3
Him: Swing 3, play verdant, fetch overgrown --> 9
Me: Plains, draw chord, witness for witness --> 17
Turn 4
Him: Land, swing 4, no blocks (13) --> 9
Me: draw druid, play wolf run, play druid, he kills at his end step with kolaghan's (discard chord) --> 13
Turn 5
Him: Bauble, traverse shadow, I take 11 in combat somehow involving a temur battlerage (2), play shadow --> 9
Me: Untap, whiff, dead.
My notes got pretty hard to read here
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Overall certainly not optimal play on both sides, but gives some idea of the power level of cards and how badly people actually play when trying to jam games over lunch
My overall take-away is that played optimally the game 1 is somewhat advantaged to Naya druid, even on the draw. The deck has a hard time dealing with all your idiots and leans really heavily on Thoughtseize. The requirement to pretty much have to kill every druid that drops or lose is taxing. That said their creatures heavily outclass the druid's and I felt myself wishing for some kitchen finks at times in this matchup (although rallying back a druid is quite a bit more threatening).
When playing abzan company vs. this deck (in the past) I always felt pressured to block with finks and get stuck in the unpleasant situation of having a persisted finks and the combo.
Kolaghan's and LOTV are startlingly bad in this matchup a lot of the time. Rallier can severely punish you for letting opponent discard (by giving a prime target to rally).
I did occasionally feel like I wanted an additional fetchland in the deck for Rallier, and may do that.
Anyway, while obviously not amazingly helpful because of the goofy play and greedy keeps hope this is somewhat helpful
Here is my list for FNM tomorrow night. Couple of meta-calls... Qasali MB for a Blue Moon player carrying Blood Moon MB. Couple of trial moves (not defending either) with Quillspike and Wooded Bastion. Definitely want the Wall of Roots, can go down T2 with DD sometimes. SB Eidolon for our local Storm player, I would love VoR mainboard, but couldn't muster it. Still not sure what Maelstrom Pulse is in there for, but since so many folks have run 2, am trusting its needed. Otherwise nothing rocket science.
I don't want to smash on this too bad but there're a lot of things I don't like about this list.
1) Bastion over 3rd canopy with ralliers
2) 7 1drops - 9 is ideal, 8 is better. would play the 3rd hierarch.
3) 22 lands and 6 dorks. Gonna make for some awkward sequences. Feels greedy.
4) Quillspike. No.
5) Wall. Noo.
6) 1 voice in the SB. I think you have to commit to 3 at minimum if it's a sideboard plan. It's not something you are gonna want to chord for.
7) I like maelstrom pulse over path/decay period in the current meta but opinions may vary. Path was just miserable for months before I finally removed it and gave up.
8) 9 fetches with no tracker and 2 ralliers. 8 is fine.
9) In general running fewer than 3 witness. 4 is where I recommend starting.
10) I think you can stand to play 3 vizier if playing an anafenza but that's just a matter of opinion.
I think your sideboard is still trying to find a voice and is kinda confused right now, but have to just trust you're preparing for your meta.
I would list Grixis Delver is a bad matchup as well. Tons of removal and interaction+fast clocks that quickly outclass our own creatures. It's very hard to beat turn 1 delver, turn 2 tasigur
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
Ballista is amazing vs infect and affinity and elves and delver and the mirror especially.
The entity and Rhonas hate come from a place of informed analysis, not spite. I don't want to play 3 mana creatures that don't do anything on their own and require a minimum of 3 mana + other creatures on the field to attack or block. I don't want to t3 CoCo into Rhonas and then have to hold up 3 mana on t4 if I want to attack or block with him. Unless you have a creature with 2 power out, double that mana requirement to 6.
Go look at the druid/vizier lists that have topped or placed in leagues and tourneys. Virtually all of them are playing Ballista, and that's because it's clearly the best card.
In your response, could you explain the matchup you'd prefer to have Rhonas or Entity as your wincon? I can't think of any personally.
Have you actually tested this? Because what you're saying is not true at all. And weird lists exist online because you can't play the deck properly. Getting all the creatures in your deck,stacking infinite bolsters and gaining infinite life is not viable online, so you need a win con that takes little time and wins on the spot.
Playing in paper is totally different, and you can set up win in many different ways.
Rhonas is miles better against all deaths shadow and control decks, where ballista is an embarrasment. Play a ballista for 2 against death's shadow that just gets fatal pushed and ping them for 2? Whereas Rhonas can be an unbeatable threat against some decks. Against all decks with big creatures, Rhonas can do a lot of work. And the opposite, against affinity, elves and mirror, ballista is good. They are good against very opposite decks. Though being a hit off coco, and chordable, like you can win through rest in peace if ballista or duskwatch has hit the gy.
They both have their weaknesses, but when casting a coco, I'd rather have another live hit and another chance off winning with coco if that's your only payoff when you have the combo.
I could see running ballista in side against the small creature matchups, but I had in in the deck for a long time, and after drawing it so many times against death's shadow, tron, grixis shadow/control, it just felt so bad. Quite often I've chorded for Rhonas against jund or other grindy decks, when no other cards would win. It won alone through a board of ooze and double goyf, because with it and som random 2 power creatures and 3/6 mana up they could never attack.
And most importantly, Rhonas seems better in the difficult matchups. I could see a ballista in the side, and swap them for the small creature matchups.
Regarding Elvish vidionary: with Eternal witness, satyr wayfinder can also do it. Courser of kruphix + horizon canopy can do it. Tireless tracker (with or without Renegade rallier help) can do it.
I think I'd rather have a tracker than Elvish visionary.
Also of note, I am considering moving away from qasali pridemage in the sb for caustic caterpillar. One mana cheaper to chord, but more importantly, mono green. I was in a spot where a graffdiggers cage was coming and I wanted to chord in response, and having double rec sage was bad. There was another instance where I had infinite mana, but had to deal with 2x rest in peace (I usually kill with infinite bolster), but no white. Since I couldn't witness back a chord/coco (due to the 2nd rip), I almost lost that game.
It is really minor, but relevant to keep in mind
Both of those situations are incredibly corner. Pridemage is just miles ahead of Caterpillar as a whole.
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
I went 3-1 again last night, only lost to amulet titan with t1 root maze g1 and g3 (I was on the draw both of those). Walking balist was great once again as I went up against infect, affinity, and bant eldrazi. Every game I boarded out the 3 voices I was testing that people seemed to like so they will continue to not be in my list. I only lost 3 games all night and the 1 game I lost to infect was probably because I got greedy and got spell pierced (had I had a voice there it still would have been useless because unblockable creatures can't be blocked by voice tokens). I am testing dusk // dawn and am impressed so far as a 2 of in the board.
Voice is not a main deck card right now. Unless your meta is egregiously blue. 3 in the side is defensible but I would prefer a pharika.
I don't think grixis delver is probably all that bad if you are on 4 Fink's. I cannot recall ever losing to it and have definitely seen it. Not a huge dataset but it doesn't show up much. Control is a much more difficult matchup because they are prone to playing anger and drawing cards.
Back when they could main deck lots of dispels delver was more threatening. Not really a thing in the post twin world.
Edit: More thoughts on why voice isn't great at the moment
Voice is great in an attrition heavy, reactive meta, where other decks want to act in your turn and can be punished for that. When other decks want to cast counterspells or flash creatures *and* 1-for-1 your threats, voice is great.
Voice is *okay* in an attrition heavy proactive meta. Voice is a decent card against Shadow/GBx but not a particularly good one. They are OK acting at sorcery speed and will tend to keep your board small enough that the token is not amazing.
We're currently not in a reactive meta. At least not from what I see. Most decks are wanting to prosecute their gameplans at sorcery speed and many decks will simply ignore voice and go over it. Voice is abysmal against most of the popular decks in the meta right now.
If you look at "Tier 1" (however much you argue with that definition), more than half of the decks give negative *****s about Voice, and several of the ones that do are also path to exile decks.
Pharika is definitely coming back for me and probably our best card we have vs control decks. I'm thinking of supplementing the control MUs further with something like Evolutionary Leap, but Pharika is what's been doing the heavy lifting vs control in my testing this week.
Voice isn't worth playing at all right now, and I say that as a general fan of the card. There's just so much more powerful things we can and should be doing with the space.
Pharika is definitely coming back for me and probably our best card we have vs control decks. I'm thinking of supplementing the control MUs further with something like Evolutionary Leap, but Pharika is what's been doing the heavy lifting vs control in my testing this week.
Voice isn't worth playing at all right now, and I say that as a general fan of the card. There's just so much more powerful things we can and should be doing with the space.
I was wondering if I should go with 3 duskwatch recruiters and 1 ballista, or 2 duskwatch recruiters, 1 Rhonas, and 1 Ballista? It basically comes down to which card is better against the field: rhonas or duskwatch recruiter? P.S i think Anafenza-Kin Tree Spirit is necessary, because if they surgically extract Vizier of Remedies, you're cut off from both combos.
I was wondering if I should go with 3 duskwatch recruiters and 1 ballista, or 2 duskwatch recruiters, 1 Rhonas, and 1 Ballista? It basically comes down to which card is better against the field: rhonas or duskwatch recruiter? P.S i think Anafenza-Kin Tree Spirit is necessary, because if they surgically extract Vizier of Remedies, you're cut off from both combos.
I personally wouldn't run less than 3 recruiter. Being able to t3 people is the whole point so you want a lot of redundancy. I'll likely go up to 4 ewit for this reason too. For those arguing against balista because you can't coco it I have many times had ewit in hand or hit it and balista with inf mana engine out. Point is with as much redundancy as possible this deck just keeps pushing through none exiling hate. Another advantage to balista main is some people will bring in stony against you and them boarding in dead cards is great.
R1 went 0-2 to harsh mentor burn. I misplayed game 2 to lose a game I had. Just tilty from turn 2 mentor stunting turn 3 combo both games. And had blaze both games. I was still in it game 2 but flubbed by tapping out into a skull crack w primal.
R2 vs Coco allies
T3 combo on the play
Lost to return to ranks and 4 removal spells game 2. Bonfire for 2 almost won it anyway but he drew 2 removal and chalice on 2 (wtf).
Game 3 I rallied back 3 fetch lands to be to 9 mana by turn 5 or so and had a lot of bumps. I played on poorly around 3 effing dromokas commands. Almost lost to chalice on 2 but topdecked a wolf run and overran a swing out for 8.
R3 v death shadow
T4 combo on the play through removal with an end step Coco into druid then untap chord.
Game 2 he keeps a stinker and I cast 3 Coco's and manage to kill him with exactsies with wolf run and flickerwisp on turn 9 or so.
Primal command was a bust here because he never played a shadow but the one I had in my hand would have sealed the game even had I not killed w wolf run.
Wolf run is a magic card. Won me two games fairly and allowed a combo one game. So figured in 3 of 4 game wins tonight.
Rallier is insane. I really love it in this deck. I rallied back a lone missionary which should have won me a game vs burn had I not been terrible.
Rhonas was...meh. I wanted entity most of the times I got Rhonas. He enabled one turn 3 kill (v. allies) that they woulda been able to chump block druid but that game was not going their way after I played all my green creatures and had a selfless spirit and stacked my deck. I actually coulda witnessed chord and flickered his blocker to kill with entity there, but didn't need to cos of Rhonas.
Another thing I do not understand is the desire to play more than 2 (AT THE MOST) recruiters. Recruiter is an awful card in modern -- just way too tempo slow. I am thrilled with 1 and drawing lavamancer or rallier.
Lavamancer overall has been just OK. thinking of trying out an avacyn's pilgrim in that slot.
Note - I don't have heirarchs or horizon canopies yet, so arbor elf was acting as a much worse heirarch.
Game 1 vs mono white prison(?) 2-0
Round 1: Found the combo on turn 3, but opponent managed to prevent combat damage for 3 turns. Eventually managed to succeed with swinging for lethal. This is a scenario where walking ballista would have been ideal...
Round 2: Three out of the 4 devoted druids got exiled via path or enchantment, but managed to find infinite life combo following turn and opponent conceded.
MVP - eternal witness was fantastic for returning CoCo and Chord to my hand so I always felt in a stronger position than my opponent.
Game 2 vs Eldrazi Tron 2-1
Round 1: I kept a rather sketchy hand, but still had half of both combos in my hand. My opponent got Tron lands on board quickly and played 2 walking ballista for 5 on consecutive turns. Which he pinged clearing my board of; seer, voice, Anafenza, finks, Druid. He then played two reality smashers following turn and game over.
Round 2: Oppent mulled to five which gave me a fantastic start and I found the infinite mana combo on turn 3.
Round 3: We both mulled to 6 and opted to keep my hand with a mindcensor and two Tidehollow. Can't remember exactly how it played out but opponent managed to beat me down to 6 health and then played a planar bridge, in response I flashed in mindcensor and found the combo the following turn. Luckily opponent only managed to find a reality smasher in their top 4 cards
MVP - eternal witness and Tidehollow did a lot of work in these matchups
Match 3 vs Titan fall 2-1
Round 1: Can't remember what happened but I know that they played an amulet on turn 1 and then I got beat down by a massive Titan with double strike.
Round 2: Oppenent kept a hand of 6 and I used two Tidehollow to exile two titans from their hand. Found infinite life combo and opponent scooped.
Round 3: This was a close match. Opponent played their Titan very early and I went down to 2 health. Managed to chord for a vizier in their end step, which opponent should have pact of negation but they missed the opportunity. Managed to swing for lethal on my turn.
MVP - Tidehollow and mindcensor was great in this match up.
Match 4 vs Mono white weenies 2-1
Round 1: opponent filled the board with weenies very quickly, but misplayed a path to exile. They should have done it in their turn but tried to disrupt the infinite mana combo with it, which resulted in me swinging for lethal.
Round 2: Kept a dodgy hand and ended up with very little on the board and got overwhelmed by champion of parish.
Round 3: Opponent kept a hand of 3 path to exile, which got rid of most of my combo creatures. Including a rhonas which I jammed to block a big weenie. A few turns later I was on 2 health and a Druid and duskwatch on the board. Due to paths I had a stack load of mana, so used duskwatch ability and found a vizier on the third card... this won me the game as I found infinite life and bolster combo and opponent conceded.
MVP - eternal witness and maelstrom pulse were fantastic in these games.
Will edit this later to give more detail and my overall thoughts on the deck and card choices.
I appreciate that I didn't face any tier 1 decks but the deck felt really solid and loved having both combos available.
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R1 went 0-2 to harsh mentor burn. I misplayed game 2 to lose a game I had. Just tilty from turn 2 mentor stunting turn 3 combo both games. And had blaze both games. I was still in it game 2 but flubbed by tapping out into a skull crack w primal.
R2 vs Coco allies
T3 combo on the play
Lost to return to ranks and 4 removal spells game 2. Bonfire for 2 almost won it anyway but he drew 2 removal and chalice on 2 (wtf).
Game 3 I rallied back 3 fetch lands to be to 9 mana by turn 5 or so and had a lot of bumps. I played on poorly around 3 effing dromokas commands. Almost lost to chalice on 2 but topdecked a wolf run and overran a swing out for 8.
R3 v death shadow
T4 combo on the play through removal with an end step Coco into druid then untap chord.
Game 2 he keeps a stinker and I cast 3 Coco's and manage to kill him with exactsies with wolf run and flickerwisp on turn 9 or so.
Primal command was a bust here because he never played a shadow but the one I had in my hand would have sealed the game even had I not killed w wolf run.
Wolf run is a magic card. Won me two games fairly and allowed a combo one game. So figured in 3 of 4 game wins tonight.
Rallier is insane. I really love it in this deck. I rallied back a lone missionary which should have won me a game vs burn had I not been terrible.
Rhonas was...meh. I wanted entity most of the times I got Rhonas. He enabled one turn 3 kill (v. allies) that they woulda been able to chump block druid but that game was not going their way after I played all my green creatures and had a selfless spirit and stacked my deck. I actually coulda witnessed chord and flickered his blocker to kill with entity there, but didn't need to cos of Rhonas.
Another thing I do not understand is the desire to play more than 2 (AT THE MOST) recruiters. Recruiter is an awful card in modern -- just way too tempo slow. I am thrilled with 1 and drawing lavamancer or rallier.
Lavamancer overall has been just OK. thinking of trying out an avacyn's pilgrim in that slot.
You don't understand the desire yet it sounds like your games are going longer. In my 4 rounds I combo'd t3 3 times and t4 2 times many times with the combo in hand and not having to tutor for parts (only losing 3 games all night and two being to t1 root maze. Consistency is the name of the game and recruiter on its own is not a bad card in this deck at all, it's actually one of the better creatures on its own.
Recruiter is another opportunity to not combo because you can't get druid or vizier to stick.
I can't agree about it being good on it's own. I've never once activated it outside if the combo. And it's prone to flipping and getting stuck if you drop it early. One game I played earlier this week I could have lost if opponent had known not to flip it.
Almost all games go longer because people kill druids. How's recruiter going to impact that?
Edit: my version runs 4 kessig wolf runs so it is far rarer that I do not have a mana sink that wins. Maybe more recruiters in other decks, but I wonder if it's really better than more witness/ralliers? Probably not, but maybe against yard hate. Depends on the curve too.
It's very weird to see an abzan list in the mtgo dailies almost every day.
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
Edit: my version runs 4 kessig wolf runs so it is far rarer that I do not have a mana sink that wins. Maybe more recruiters in other decks, but I wonder if it's really better than more witness/ralliers? Probably not, but maybe against yard hate. Depends on the curve too.
You answer your own question. It's embarrassing when you have infinite mana and nothing to do with it. How many Kessig do you run already ? Well the answer should be the same for Abzan players with Recruiter. Recruiter is also a mana sink that gets Ballista, undoubtedly the surest win condition available.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
Edit: my version runs 4 kessig wolf runs so it is far rarer that I do not have a mana sink that wins. Maybe more recruiters in other decks, but I wonder if it's really better than more witness/ralliers? Probably not, but maybe against yard hate. Depends on the curve too.
You answer your own question. It's embarrassing when you have infinite mana and nothing to do with it. How many Kessig do you run already ? Well the answer should be the same for Abzan players with Recruiter. Recruiter is also a mana sink that gets Ballista, undoubtedly the surest win condition available.
I would say abzan should be running 4 witness before more than 1 recruiter (mostly, depending on curve of course). Can sideboard an additional recruiter perhaps but better still is things that kill graveyard hate since they also kill other combo hate (such as revoker/needle/etc.).
Generally I find the 2-cmc slot pretty crowded already; you probably don't want more than 10-11 2-drops and that means you have 2-3 slots, at least one of which should be some kind of combo defense (spellskite, selfless spirit, saffi).
Edit: my version runs 4 kessig wolf runs so it is far rarer that I do not have a mana sink that wins. Maybe more recruiters in other decks, but I wonder if it's really better than more witness/ralliers? Probably not, but maybe against yard hate. Depends on the curve too.
You answer your own question. It's embarrassing when you have infinite mana and nothing to do with it. How many Kessig do you run already ? Well the answer should be the same for Abzan players with Recruiter. Recruiter is also a mana sink that gets Ballista, undoubtedly the surest win condition available.
I would say abzan should be running 4 witness before more than 1 recruiter (mostly, depending on curve of course). Can sideboard an additional recruiter perhaps but better still is things that kill graveyard hate since they also kill other combo hate (such as revoker/needle/etc.).
Generally I find the 2-cmc slot pretty crowded already; you probably don't want more than 10-11 2-drops and that means you have 2-3 slots, at least one of which should be some kind of combo defense (spellskite, selfless spirit, saffi).
I'm on 4 Druid 4 vizier 3 duskwatch 4 ewit 1 Ana 2 seer 1 cutthroat 4 finks 1 balista 4 birds 2 noble 1 rec sage 4 chord 4 coco and the list is very efficient.
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1 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Devoted Druid
1 Duskwatch Recruiter Flip
2 Eternal Witness
1 Fiend Hunter
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Quillspike
2 Renegade Rallier
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
1 Viscera Seer
4 Vizier of Remedies
1 Wall of Roots
2 Forest
3 Gavony Township
1 Godless Shrine
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Marsh Flats
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
2 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Bastion
Spells (8)
4 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Path to Exile
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Spellskite
1 Voice of Resurgence
Game 1 vs. DSJ, on the draw
Opening hand: temple garden, plains, foothills, rallier, rallier, chord, flickerwisp
Keep, though hand is very sketchy it is hard to send back a functional 7 vs. DSJ who will take all your cards anyway.
T1
Him: bauble, bauble, crack foothills -> crypt, iok my chord -> 17
Me: draw coco, play tapped temple garden -> 20
T2
Him: Stomp untapped pass -> 15
Me: (draw illegible), play plains, pass -> 20
T3
Him: Swamp, kolaghan's command himself and make me discard (I discard lavamancer) --> 13 (This play was bad)
me: draw/Play foothills, fetch stomping ground, rallier back lavamancer --> 17
T4
Him: Goyf, traverse for wraith, cycle -> 11
Me: play foothills, pass --> 17
T5
Him: overgrown tomb untapped (9), ghor clan goyf attack for 9 (no blocks), traverse for shadow play shadow --> 9
Combat step cast fetch, coco for druid + vizier ( 16), no blocks (7)
Me: draw wolf run, Untap, play vizier, play wolf run, kill.
I think the mistake he made was not sandbagging the kolaghan's, could have stayed in it. Not sure this match was winnable because I'd have rallied the druid back and been able to block profitably.
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Game 2 (still preboard)
OH: heath, heath, hierarch, rallier, coco, coco, duskwatch recruiter (grossss)
On the play
Turn 1
Me: Heath, fetch shock stomping ground play hierarch --> 17
Him: Mire, bauble, fetch tomb, iok (Rallier) --> 17
Turn 2
Me: draw entity, Play fetch, duskwatch --> 17
Him: Mire, shock crypt, goyf -> 14
Turn 3
Me: Draw temple garden, play temple untapped, pass --> 15
Him: (recruiter flip) Tomb untapped, Ik entity, swing 5 (blocked), post combat play shadow. --> 12
I fetch forest (14) and cast coco in combat, hitting lavamancer + vizier, Chump with lavamancer -- this was incorrect, he played a post combat death's shadow I could have killed with it, and I should have just taken the beats.
Turn 4
Me: (Recruiter flip face up) play foundry untapped --> 12
Him: (flip) play stomping ground untapped (10), goyf swing, block with noble hierarch. Traverses for a forest thinking he hadn't a land drop, plays Lily and makes us both discard (I coco in response hitting witness + druid, witness back coco, discard something)
Editorial: I blocked with hierarch to enable revolt in case I hit a rallier with coco. Left the foundry untapped previously in case I wanted to wait and cast coco at a different time based on some line of play (e.g. if he cast a main phase Little Lily and shot it down I still wanted to be able to coco in combat and potentially blow him out).
Turn 5
Me: untap, kill with infinite duskwatch.
Hey he didn't find removal again. Bad beats. Not sure anything but a runner runner thoughtseize was taking this one though since I had double cocos. Had I played correctly I don't think this game was ever winnable.
So far my take is if he doesn't find more than one creature AND removal and discard this is unwinnable; just gives too much time. There are lots of potential outs but once we start casting cocos it's hard to come back. Druid and dorks really tax the removal. I do miss township in this match though because wolf run is mana intensive to trade for their creatures.
-------------------------
Game 3
Opening hand: Mull 6, plains, witness, stomping ground, wolf run, rallier, temple garden (Scry a rallier on top; should have bottomed, this probly cost me any chance of playing magic here -- thought I had a fetch and didn't)
Turn 1
Him: Fetch og, thoughtseize witness --> 15
Me: Draw rallier, sg tapped --> 20
Turn 2
Him: Fetch blood crypt, goyf --> 12
Me: Tapped temple garden, draw witness --> 20
Turn 3
Him: Swing 3, play verdant, fetch overgrown --> 9
Me: Plains, draw chord, witness for witness --> 17
Turn 4
Him: Land, swing 4, no blocks (13) --> 9
Me: draw druid, play wolf run, play druid, he kills at his end step with kolaghan's (discard chord) --> 13
Turn 5
Him: Bauble, traverse shadow, I take 11 in combat somehow involving a temur battlerage (2), play shadow --> 9
Me: Untap, whiff, dead.
My notes got pretty hard to read here
---------------------------------
Overall certainly not optimal play on both sides, but gives some idea of the power level of cards and how badly people actually play when trying to jam games over lunch
My overall take-away is that played optimally the game 1 is somewhat advantaged to Naya druid, even on the draw. The deck has a hard time dealing with all your idiots and leans really heavily on Thoughtseize. The requirement to pretty much have to kill every druid that drops or lose is taxing. That said their creatures heavily outclass the druid's and I felt myself wishing for some kitchen finks at times in this matchup (although rallying back a druid is quite a bit more threatening).
When playing abzan company vs. this deck (in the past) I always felt pressured to block with finks and get stuck in the unpleasant situation of having a persisted finks and the combo.
Kolaghan's and LOTV are startlingly bad in this matchup a lot of the time. Rallier can severely punish you for letting opponent discard (by giving a prime target to rally).
I did occasionally feel like I wanted an additional fetchland in the deck for Rallier, and may do that.
Anyway, while obviously not amazingly helpful because of the goofy play and greedy keeps hope this is somewhat helpful
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I don't want to smash on this too bad but there're a lot of things I don't like about this list.
1) Bastion over 3rd canopy with ralliers
2) 7 1drops - 9 is ideal, 8 is better. would play the 3rd hierarch.
3) 22 lands and 6 dorks. Gonna make for some awkward sequences. Feels greedy.
4) Quillspike. No.
5) Wall. Noo.
6) 1 voice in the SB. I think you have to commit to 3 at minimum if it's a sideboard plan. It's not something you are gonna want to chord for.
7) I like maelstrom pulse over path/decay period in the current meta but opinions may vary. Path was just miserable for months before I finally removed it and gave up.
8) 9 fetches with no tracker and 2 ralliers. 8 is fine.
9) In general running fewer than 3 witness. 4 is where I recommend starting.
10) I think you can stand to play 3 vizier if playing an anafenza but that's just a matter of opinion.
I think your sideboard is still trying to find a voice and is kinda confused right now, but have to just trust you're preparing for your meta.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
Have you actually tested this? Because what you're saying is not true at all. And weird lists exist online because you can't play the deck properly. Getting all the creatures in your deck,stacking infinite bolsters and gaining infinite life is not viable online, so you need a win con that takes little time and wins on the spot.
Playing in paper is totally different, and you can set up win in many different ways.
Rhonas is miles better against all deaths shadow and control decks, where ballista is an embarrasment. Play a ballista for 2 against death's shadow that just gets fatal pushed and ping them for 2? Whereas Rhonas can be an unbeatable threat against some decks. Against all decks with big creatures, Rhonas can do a lot of work. And the opposite, against affinity, elves and mirror, ballista is good. They are good against very opposite decks. Though being a hit off coco, and chordable, like you can win through rest in peace if ballista or duskwatch has hit the gy.
They both have their weaknesses, but when casting a coco, I'd rather have another live hit and another chance off winning with coco if that's your only payoff when you have the combo.
I could see running ballista in side against the small creature matchups, but I had in in the deck for a long time, and after drawing it so many times against death's shadow, tron, grixis shadow/control, it just felt so bad. Quite often I've chorded for Rhonas against jund or other grindy decks, when no other cards would win. It won alone through a board of ooze and double goyf, because with it and som random 2 power creatures and 3/6 mana up they could never attack.
And most importantly, Rhonas seems better in the difficult matchups. I could see a ballista in the side, and swap them for the small creature matchups.
Both of those situations are incredibly corner. Pridemage is just miles ahead of Caterpillar as a whole.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
I don't think grixis delver is probably all that bad if you are on 4 Fink's. I cannot recall ever losing to it and have definitely seen it. Not a huge dataset but it doesn't show up much. Control is a much more difficult matchup because they are prone to playing anger and drawing cards.
Back when they could main deck lots of dispels delver was more threatening. Not really a thing in the post twin world.
Edit: More thoughts on why voice isn't great at the moment
Voice is great in an attrition heavy, reactive meta, where other decks want to act in your turn and can be punished for that. When other decks want to cast counterspells or flash creatures *and* 1-for-1 your threats, voice is great.
Voice is *okay* in an attrition heavy proactive meta. Voice is a decent card against Shadow/GBx but not a particularly good one. They are OK acting at sorcery speed and will tend to keep your board small enough that the token is not amazing.
We're currently not in a reactive meta. At least not from what I see. Most decks are wanting to prosecute their gameplans at sorcery speed and many decks will simply ignore voice and go over it. Voice is abysmal against most of the popular decks in the meta right now.
If you look at "Tier 1" (however much you argue with that definition), more than half of the decks give negative *****s about Voice, and several of the ones that do are also path to exile decks.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Voice isn't worth playing at all right now, and I say that as a general fan of the card. There's just so much more powerful things we can and should be doing with the space.
Edit: Why cant I link too a tappedout deck?
1 Walking Ballista
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Noble Hierarch
3 Viscera Seer
4 Devoted Druid
4 Vizier of Remedies
3 Duskwatch Recruiter
1 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Eternal Witness
4 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
Lands: (22)
3 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
2 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Gavony Township
3 Path to Exile
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Sin Collector
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
I was wondering if I should go with 3 duskwatch recruiters and 1 ballista, or 2 duskwatch recruiters, 1 Rhonas, and 1 Ballista? It basically comes down to which card is better against the field: rhonas or duskwatch recruiter? P.S i think Anafenza-Kin Tree Spirit is necessary, because if they surgically extract Vizier of Remedies, you're cut off from both combos.
I personally wouldn't run less than 3 recruiter. Being able to t3 people is the whole point so you want a lot of redundancy. I'll likely go up to 4 ewit for this reason too. For those arguing against balista because you can't coco it I have many times had ewit in hand or hit it and balista with inf mana engine out. Point is with as much redundancy as possible this deck just keeps pushing through none exiling hate. Another advantage to balista main is some people will bring in stony against you and them boarding in dead cards is great.
R1 went 0-2 to harsh mentor burn. I misplayed game 2 to lose a game I had. Just tilty from turn 2 mentor stunting turn 3 combo both games. And had blaze both games. I was still in it game 2 but flubbed by tapping out into a skull crack w primal.
R2 vs Coco allies
T3 combo on the play
Lost to return to ranks and 4 removal spells game 2. Bonfire for 2 almost won it anyway but he drew 2 removal and chalice on 2 (wtf).
Game 3 I rallied back 3 fetch lands to be to 9 mana by turn 5 or so and had a lot of bumps. I played on poorly around 3 effing dromokas commands. Almost lost to chalice on 2 but topdecked a wolf run and overran a swing out for 8.
R3 v death shadow
T4 combo on the play through removal with an end step Coco into druid then untap chord.
Game 2 he keeps a stinker and I cast 3 Coco's and manage to kill him with exactsies with wolf run and flickerwisp on turn 9 or so.
Primal command was a bust here because he never played a shadow but the one I had in my hand would have sealed the game even had I not killed w wolf run.
Wolf run is a magic card. Won me two games fairly and allowed a combo one game. So figured in 3 of 4 game wins tonight.
Rallier is insane. I really love it in this deck. I rallied back a lone missionary which should have won me a game vs burn had I not been terrible.
Rhonas was...meh. I wanted entity most of the times I got Rhonas. He enabled one turn 3 kill (v. allies) that they woulda been able to chump block druid but that game was not going their way after I played all my green creatures and had a selfless spirit and stacked my deck. I actually coulda witnessed chord and flickered his blocker to kill with entity there, but didn't need to cos of Rhonas.
Another thing I do not understand is the desire to play more than 2 (AT THE MOST) recruiters. Recruiter is an awful card in modern -- just way too tempo slow. I am thrilled with 1 and drawing lavamancer or rallier.
Lavamancer overall has been just OK. thinking of trying out an avacyn's pilgrim in that slot.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
4 birds of paradise
3 arbor elf
1 viscera seer
2 voice of resurgence
2 renegade rallier
3 eternal witness
4 devoted Druid
3 Vizier of remedies
1 Anafenza
3 kitchen finks
1 rhonas the indomitable
1 scavenging ooze
1 tireless tracker
1 duskwatch recruiter
4 collected company
4 chord of calling
3 path to exile
3 Tidehollow sculler
1 maelstrom pulse
1 phyrexian revoker
1 Qasali pridemage
1 vexing shusher
1 Anafenza the foremost
1 kataki war wage
1 selfless spirit
1 orzhov pontiff
1 Aven mindcensor
Note - I don't have heirarchs or horizon canopies yet, so arbor elf was acting as a much worse heirarch.
Game 1 vs mono white prison(?) 2-0
Round 1: Found the combo on turn 3, but opponent managed to prevent combat damage for 3 turns. Eventually managed to succeed with swinging for lethal. This is a scenario where walking ballista would have been ideal...
Round 2: Three out of the 4 devoted druids got exiled via path or enchantment, but managed to find infinite life combo following turn and opponent conceded.
MVP - eternal witness was fantastic for returning CoCo and Chord to my hand so I always felt in a stronger position than my opponent.
Game 2 vs Eldrazi Tron 2-1
Round 1: I kept a rather sketchy hand, but still had half of both combos in my hand. My opponent got Tron lands on board quickly and played 2 walking ballista for 5 on consecutive turns. Which he pinged clearing my board of; seer, voice, Anafenza, finks, Druid. He then played two reality smashers following turn and game over.
Round 2: Oppent mulled to five which gave me a fantastic start and I found the infinite mana combo on turn 3.
Round 3: We both mulled to 6 and opted to keep my hand with a mindcensor and two Tidehollow. Can't remember exactly how it played out but opponent managed to beat me down to 6 health and then played a planar bridge, in response I flashed in mindcensor and found the combo the following turn. Luckily opponent only managed to find a reality smasher in their top 4 cards
MVP - eternal witness and Tidehollow did a lot of work in these matchups
Match 3 vs Titan fall 2-1
Round 1: Can't remember what happened but I know that they played an amulet on turn 1 and then I got beat down by a massive Titan with double strike.
Round 2: Oppenent kept a hand of 6 and I used two Tidehollow to exile two titans from their hand. Found infinite life combo and opponent scooped.
Round 3: This was a close match. Opponent played their Titan very early and I went down to 2 health. Managed to chord for a vizier in their end step, which opponent should have pact of negation but they missed the opportunity. Managed to swing for lethal on my turn.
MVP - Tidehollow and mindcensor was great in this match up.
Match 4 vs Mono white weenies 2-1
Round 1: opponent filled the board with weenies very quickly, but misplayed a path to exile. They should have done it in their turn but tried to disrupt the infinite mana combo with it, which resulted in me swinging for lethal.
Round 2: Kept a dodgy hand and ended up with very little on the board and got overwhelmed by champion of parish.
Round 3: Opponent kept a hand of 3 path to exile, which got rid of most of my combo creatures. Including a rhonas which I jammed to block a big weenie. A few turns later I was on 2 health and a Druid and duskwatch on the board. Due to paths I had a stack load of mana, so used duskwatch ability and found a vizier on the third card... this won me the game as I found infinite life and bolster combo and opponent conceded.
MVP - eternal witness and maelstrom pulse were fantastic in these games.
Will edit this later to give more detail and my overall thoughts on the deck and card choices.
I appreciate that I didn't face any tier 1 decks but the deck felt really solid and loved having both combos available.
Everyone loves an angry mob RWG
Why so Bloo? RU
You don't understand the desire yet it sounds like your games are going longer. In my 4 rounds I combo'd t3 3 times and t4 2 times many times with the combo in hand and not having to tutor for parts (only losing 3 games all night and two being to t1 root maze. Consistency is the name of the game and recruiter on its own is not a bad card in this deck at all, it's actually one of the better creatures on its own.
I can't agree about it being good on it's own. I've never once activated it outside if the combo. And it's prone to flipping and getting stuck if you drop it early. One game I played earlier this week I could have lost if opponent had known not to flip it.
Almost all games go longer because people kill druids. How's recruiter going to impact that?
Edit: my version runs 4 kessig wolf runs so it is far rarer that I do not have a mana sink that wins. Maybe more recruiters in other decks, but I wonder if it's really better than more witness/ralliers? Probably not, but maybe against yard hate. Depends on the curve too.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
You answer your own question. It's embarrassing when you have infinite mana and nothing to do with it. How many Kessig do you run already ? Well the answer should be the same for Abzan players with Recruiter. Recruiter is also a mana sink that gets Ballista, undoubtedly the surest win condition available.
I would say abzan should be running 4 witness before more than 1 recruiter (mostly, depending on curve of course). Can sideboard an additional recruiter perhaps but better still is things that kill graveyard hate since they also kill other combo hate (such as revoker/needle/etc.).
Generally I find the 2-cmc slot pretty crowded already; you probably don't want more than 10-11 2-drops and that means you have 2-3 slots, at least one of which should be some kind of combo defense (spellskite, selfless spirit, saffi).
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I'm on 4 Druid 4 vizier 3 duskwatch 4 ewit 1 Ana 2 seer 1 cutthroat 4 finks 1 balista 4 birds 2 noble 1 rec sage 4 chord 4 coco and the list is very efficient.