Hello, I am looking for any suggestions/tweaks on my deck but especially the manabase. I was thinking of taking out 1 Overgrown Tomb for 1 Marsh Flats.
Creatures 31:
4 Bird of Paradise
3 Noble Heirarchs
2 Wall of Roots
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Viscera Seer
2 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
2 Anafenza, The Kin-Tree Spirit
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Eternal Witness
2 Renegade Rallier
1 Spike Feeder
1 Archangel of Thune
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Quasali Pridemage
Hello, I am looking for any suggestions/tweaks on my deck but especially the manabase. I was thinking of taking out 1 Overgrown Tomb for 1 Marsh Flats.
Creatures 31:
4 Bird of Paradise
3 Noble Heirarchs
2 Wall of Roots
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Viscera Seer
2 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
2 Anafenza, The Kin-Tree Spirit
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Eternal Witness
2 Renegade Rallier
1 Spike Feeder
1 Archangel of Thune
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Quasali Pridemage
This deck list will get you some wins,but it's an older build that had dropped us down to T3. Newer cards have brought us back to T2, I think because people are prepared for old Abzan CoCo, but not for newer spice. Not that the spice has proven better long term yet. Manabase is fine, although I prefer 22 lands, with 3x Gavony and 2x Horizon Canopy. Melira and Roots are gone from New builds, and Anafenza and Seer are 1x if present. Redcap is gone in new brews.
Two Druid/Vizier decks in Tuesday's MTGO league and another in the Monday league. That's pretty insane considering coco lists, especuially abzan, are a pain to play online.
Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
Keep in mind that online and paper lists will be a bit different. Gaining "infinite" life online isn't possible, so understand people add things like redcap to make killing people easier. It's not needed in paper.
Ballista: I think ballista is a really embarrasing creature in most matchups in modern. Especially in our harder matchups. It's just horrible against control, death's shadow, eldrazi, tron, valakut etc, and it's also a coco miss.
The matchups where ballista is a good creature its own is Affinity, coco, elves, Soul Sisters and hatebears. He’s fine against merfolk and dredge and a few other as well.
Rhonas: In something like 99% of cases, Rhonas is good enough. You should play your deck, gain infinite life and bolster and all that stuff before attacking anyway. (also not really possible online)
However, Rhonas is actually a really good creature against control type decks and bad matchups. Death’s shadow can often not attack at all with him and a couple of creatures, and some decks simply can’t beat him. He brawls with the biggest creatures in modern and only dies to path (and a few other fringe cards).
I’ve won games against these decks by chording for Rhonas, when no other creatures would save me. Sometimes my finks and voices are just small and embarrassing. Rhonas helps a lot. Being a coco hit is great as well. (another hit if your only infinite mana payoff is coco for example)
Notes: Ensnaring bridge does nothing against Rhonas, neither does cryptic tapping the team. Druid is 0 power and can untap itself.
Cards Rhonas is sometimes bad against: Phyrexian Unlife, deflecting palm, Angel’s grace, condemn, Blessed Alliance, sometimes Thalia (first strike)
(note that you will still probably win against these cards if you play properly and draw/play your deck first, it's just sometimes you sometimes have to play around)
Mirror entity is fine imo, but a bit mana intensive and fragile.
Fiend hunter: In theory he’s good. However all the matchups I want him in are matchups where they have so much removal, he’s more of a liability on an embarrassing body than an asset. Unless you can sac him in response to trigger, I would much rather just sideboard in lots of paths and maelstrom pulses. Kalitas and oozes aren’t such a huge problem as they used to be since we have a better combo that doesn’t use the graveyeard anyway.
Spellskite vs Selfless Spirit: Selfless spirit is just better these days. There are so few bolts and so many pushes. There are however angers and other boardwipes. Spirit can also attack, block things from affinity and plays well with Renegade rallier. You can also do things like triple block big threats and kill something. Spellskite might come back, but for now I think spirit is much better.
Flickerwisp:
I thought it’s be good in theory, but after testing I found it mediocre.. It was ofte a sorcery speed low impact 3 mana spell. Once in a while it did something cool, from a cooc or chord.
Voice of Resurgence:
This card is soo good against difficult matchups. It can sometimes win the game alone against control. If they kill your voice on their turn and you follow up with rallier it can just be game over.
Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit:
I like the old combo as well. I think diversifying and having 2 good combos is great, and infinite bolster has been usefull. Bolster on druid is also cool.
Sideboard:
Distended Mindbender vs Tidehollow Sculler:
I see I differ from most lists by running mindbender. There are a couple of reasons. Mindbender is so much better against control. Sculler is bad against control, and even worse against decks with kolaghans command. It’s a liability and dies to the same cards that the rest of our deck does.
Mindbender on the other hand, attacks from a completely different angle. It doesn’t die to push or anger or Ugin while being a 2 or 3 for 1 most often. It just wrecks Ad Nauseam, and it can sometimes even brawl with goyfs, thought knot seers and reality smashers.
I think Sculler is better against storm and fast combo decks, but I bring in Mindbender in more matchups than I would sculler. Double black is a downside, but worth it imo. I’ve snagged damnations, cryptics, kalitas, oozes, reality smashers, or even angel’s graze + ad nauseam from the same cast. It’s not a minor annoyance as Sculler might be, it’s sometimes just a 1 card lights out combo.
Eidolon of Rhetoric AND Ethersworn Canonist ??
First of all, I want more than 1 hatepiece for these decks. Second, chording for Eidolon turn 3 is unfortunately very difficult, while chording for 2 on turn 3 is usually possible. Just gives me an easier time against storm, ad Nauseam and some fringe combo decks. Eidolon is the better card though.
Maelstrom Pulse vs Abrubt decay:
I think people still on Abrubt decay haven’t seen yet how good maelstrom pulse actually is, or are on old lists. You will sometimes kill 2+ death’s shadow with it or 2 goyfs, but that’s not the main reason to run it. Maelstrom pulse can be brought in against decks where abrubt decay is useless. Want to kill a black leyline, a kalitas, lingering souls, while still hitting all the relevant hate you might want to hit? Maelstrom Pulse has you covered.
You can’t bring in abrubt decay incase they have grafdiggers, rest in peace, or bring in path against control decks that might bring in Kalitas or lingering souls, but you CAN bring in Maelstrom Pulse against almost any deck in modern and hit good targets.
Mindbender and Sculler really dont fulfill the same roles. I don't think they should be compared. Mindbender is a value card for midrange and control that's hard to interact with. Sculler is a 2 drop that takes a card in the matchups where you want it.(i.e., very little removal/expensive removal)
As much as I like Voice of Resurgence, it gets much worse relative to the number of renegade ralliers and viscera seers, both of which are worse in a druid-vizier build.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
Mindbender and Sculler really dont fulfill the same roles. I don't think they should be compared. Mindbender is a value card for midrange and control that's hard to interact with. Sculler is a 2 drop that takes a card in the matchups where you want it.(i.e., very little removal/expensive removal)
As much as I like Voice of Resurgence, it gets much worse relative to the number of renegade ralliers and viscera seers, both of which are worse in a druid-vizier build.
Why are they worse? There are a lot of flex slots after you put in 4 druids and 3/4 vizier. You won't always have your combo to win, you probably have to play a real game of magic more often than you combo. Voices even protect you going for the combo if they are in play. Being all in on the druid combo isn't enough imo, you still need to play a real game, and having several angles of attack makes it harder to play against and sideboard against.
Pokken 1 thing you miss in your analysis of ballista is that on his own he's infinitely better than entity or Rhonas.
As you said yourself, once we have infinite mana its pretty hard to lose either way. That's why when considering two wincons that do the same job, you should instead think about which will serve you better when things aren't going according to plan. Ballista without infinite mana is still an absolute beating vs many of the best decks in modern. Cast it for 6 mana (which is easily achievable by turn 4 in this deck) and your opponent can no longer play x/2s or x/1s unless they have hexproof. He can easily deal with problem cards like lingering souls at a nearly 1-for-1 mana rate, and in the meantime forces them to waste removal on him to prevent us growing him each turn.
By comparison, in a non-infinite mana situation, entity is pretty meh unless you're playing against a deck without any removal and also not many blockers. Rhonas is only slightly better, as we don't run *any* 4 power creatures, he is essentially a 3 mana do-nothing that requires 3 additional mana and another creature out with at least 2 power to do something.
So that's the 3 creatures in a non infinite situation. Let's call that a middle case. As we've established, in the "best case" situation the card you obviously want is Ballista. In the "middle case" ballista also seems better. Now let's talk worst case.
Worst case Rhonas: you draw him, cast him, he eats a path to exile. Alternative: you draw him, cast him, and all your creatures have 1 or less power, meaning you need 6 mana to attack or block with him. Pretty bad.
Worst case entity: you hit him on CoCo or cast him and he gets bolted or pathed. Entity is clearly the worst of the 3, he fails the bolt test miserably and is fairly useless without infinite mana.
Worst case Ballista: you hit CoCo and get the unlucky dice roll, the only critter in your top 6 is Ballista. Feels bad man. Alternative: you topdeck him when you needed a combo piece or answer, cast him for value and he eats some removal or blocks a creature and pings your opponent.
Overall, it seems Ballista is still the best of the 3 in each scenario. If he eats removal you have at minimum 2-for-1d your opponent. If you cast him with infinite mana you win in the spot, and if the game gets long and grindy, he's easily our 3rd best late game topdeck after CoCo and Chord.
Also, I think it's a mistake to say winning via combat damage isn't a big difference vs winning instantly. With the Rhonas or Entity plan you are opening yourself up to losing to blessed alliance or path to exile if you only have a single attacker. You can get blown out by a fog, or an angels Grace, etc.
Ultimately time will tell, but I am pretty firmly in the ballista camp because it has a much better secondary utility and in the meantime is a much better combo piece if you have infinite mana.
Also the only card that misses ballista is CoCo. You can still win off a chord with ballista as the wincon if you run a single duskwatch recruiter (who is on his own a wonderful grindy card)
Have you all considered playing 1 Elvish Visionary in the 60? For the fringe spots where we want to get a non-creature-spell out of our deck (mostly sideboard cards)? because we can just draw creatures with Duskwatch Recruiter. With a single Visionary you can stack your deck with Duskwatch at instant speed. If you're lucky to have a CoCo in hand you can set the wanted card (for example a Abrupt Decay) at seventh position in your deck and the Visionary somewhere in the first 6. You are then able to draw the non-creature spell with the Visionary. Might be better suited into decks with Eldritch Evolution since you can sacrifice it to get any 4 drop but this came to my mind when testing on XMage.
Can see cutting the 4th Eternal Witness for 1 Elvish Visionary. But most of the time we will win anyways when having the infinite mana combo. I am a big fan of playing Rhonas the Indomitable because this allows me to play Stony Silence from the sideboard. Worship is against my local meta which has some Elves, Merfolk, Affinity and Soul Sisters decks floating around.
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
A lot of bagging on rhonas and entity confuses me. They are both stellar in many matchups
I have T4 killed with entity by dork dork druid dork entity T4 swing for lethal. This is a way you steal games. Mirror entity is great against uninteractive decks. It's also quite good against red based removal decks since you can blank damage based removal often. I've had entity save my board from anger multiple times. The Lola when someone drops a Lord of Atlantis are also real.
Rhonas shines against fair decks. He's hard to remove and makes combat a nightmare.
Walking ballista is good against opposing small creature decks you're already strong against. It almost never speeds up your clock over rhonas because if they have removal they will use it on druid.
It's not a bad card just not the mana dump we want. Not game 1 anyway. It's a fine sideboard card when you need to beat stuff like worship or unlife....but usually worse than rec sage or pridemage or catterpillar
Ballista is amazing vs infect and affinity and elves and delver and the mirror especially.
The entity and Rhonas hate come from a place of informed analysis, not spite. I don't want to play 3 mana creatures that don't do anything on their own and require a minimum of 3 mana + other creatures on the field to attack or block. I don't want to t3 CoCo into Rhonas and then have to hold up 3 mana on t4 if I want to attack or block with him. Unless you have a creature with 2 power out, double that mana requirement to 6.
Go look at the druid/vizier lists that have topped or placed in leagues and tourneys. Virtually all of them are playing Ballista, and that's because it's clearly the best card.
In your response, could you explain the matchup you'd prefer to have Rhonas or Entity as your wincon? I can't think of any personally.
Infect affinity and delver and elves. Also known as already good matchups.( non-existent in the case of infect..it would likely be poor without melira)
Eh. I don't think a handful of randomly displayed mtgo league top 8s are anything to base analysis about an emerging deck. If my wolf run list 5-0s and gets shown does that mean it's the best?
I notice you were unable to list matchups you'd prefer Rhonas or Entity.
As for your point about the lists that have posted results, I guess it's the difference between anecdotal evidence and actual evidence. You claim your list with Rhonas is better, i claim ballista lists are better, but only one of us has evidence to support those claims.
Rhonas is better vs all shadow decks all midrange decks and all control decks.
Entity is better against ad nauseam, storm (because it allows you to kill faster without combo), living end, any red based deck, any tron deck, merfolk,
I already listed the deck archetypes that they are better against and didn't figure I needed to list them.
In general entity shines in unfair racing and rhonas against midrange/control.
Infect affinity and delver and elves. Also known as already good matchups.( non-existent in the case of infect..it would likely be poor without melira)
Eh. I don't think a handful of randomly displayed mtgo league top 8s are anything to base analysis about an emerging deck. If my wolf run list 5-0s and gets shown does that mean it's the best?
Those are matchups which can be quite faster. Since Elves is my pet-deck you can easily get a semi-win by playing Balista for 2 and kill the T1 dork (if you're on the play). Same is true for Merfolk, killing one of their Lords or even the MotW will make this matchup slighlty easier. I agree that those are good matchups, bit I still think instant winning in the mainphase is better than going to combat
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
It's probably spread out here among the posts, but would be grateful if the experienced here share their view of the matchups easiest to most difficult with Vizier Abzan.
Went 2/1 with the loss being a mill to really crappy 6 on the draw (rally witness 3 non fetch lands, drew lands, a druid and 3x3 drops). First two games were turn 5 kills through at least some disruption, one natural duskwatch and one wolf run off the top.
Overall I felt strongly favored game 1. They cannot afford to remove my dorks and the mana advantage tends to be marked.
My guess is that dsj is a strongly favored matchup to naya across the board. They are pretty vulnerable to wolf run and coco. We'll do some post board games tomorrow hopefully.
I suspect abzan vizier to be more advantaged although I'm not sure. Rallier is very good in the matchup, serving to exacerbate the mana and width advantage.
For my build this is my mental matchup map at:
Good
Dsj abzan elves merfolk abzviz affinity
Even
Burn Tron bant eldrazi ad nauseum grixis control
Bad
Scapeshift storm uw control allies
Not 100 percent sure bout that but seems right. Suspect abzan Coco is similar but uw control might be a hair better and ad nauseum a bit worse (or better?)
Also think my build is better vs Tron and worse vs scapshift come to think of it. Sin collector is great.
Tron feels winnable now but remand and electrolyze and/or main deck angers out of scapeshift decks are hard to beat. I suspect if Tron was on pyroclasm it would be bad again.
Thanks for the detail Pokken, will help me sideboard for FNM, do you think I can drop Kataki? I also have a lot of GBx hate, but probably do not need it all.
My son plays Bant Eldrazi and I am 6-0 against him, has never even been close. Eldrazi-Tron might be a different matter. Also has Blue Moon which I am 0-3 against and Storm, which completely depends on home draw, who plays first, and whether or not I get my Eidolon or a Chord in hand. I should add I've played 3 matches against Kiki Chord, which Hooglund now has inspired a mainboard Linvala for, and Linvala/Spellskite is a tough lock against a deck that can grind better. I did win one game through Linvala with Gavony. And those where Linvala was not found/chorded for.
I don't feel any need for affinity hate beyond rec sage and pridemage and pontiff right now in an abzan list.
Any snapcaster deck is going to be rough. A snap electrolyze or snap forked bolt could easily spell a game. I really like mirror entity and rhonas in those matches. Sandbag told you can drop it and pump to 4 or just play or rhonas.
Cheap counters particularly dispel can also be a problem. Pharika is a pretty ridiculous bomb against snap bolt decks so consider one of those.
Creatures 31:
4 Bird of Paradise
3 Noble Heirarchs
2 Wall of Roots
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Viscera Seer
2 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
2 Anafenza, The Kin-Tree Spirit
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Eternal Witness
2 Renegade Rallier
1 Spike Feeder
1 Archangel of Thune
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Quasali Pridemage
Spells 8:
4 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
Lands 21:
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Razorverge Thicket
2 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Gavony Township
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
This deck list will get you some wins,but it's an older build that had dropped us down to T3. Newer cards have brought us back to T2, I think because people are prepared for old Abzan CoCo, but not for newer spice. Not that the spice has proven better long term yet. Manabase is fine, although I prefer 22 lands, with 3x Gavony and 2x Horizon Canopy. Melira and Roots are gone from New builds, and Anafenza and Seer are 1x if present. Redcap is gone in new brews.
Modern
URB Grixis Delver
GWB Abzan Company
RWB Mardu Burn
WB Martyr Proc
Modern
URB Grixis Delver
GWB Abzan Company
RWB Mardu Burn
WB Martyr Proc
2 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Godless Shrine
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Swamp
2 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
29 CREATURES
1 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
1 Archangel of Thune
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Devoted Druid
1 Duskwatch Recruiter
2 Eternal Witness
1 Fiend Hunter
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Noble Hierarch
1 Renegade Rallier
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Spike Feeder
1 Tireless Tracker
2 Viscera Seer
3 Vizier of Remedies
1 Walking Ballista
8 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Orzhov Pontiff
3 Path to Exile
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Sin Collector
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Swamp
3 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
29 CREATURES
1 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Devoted Druid
3 Duskwatch Recruiter
2 Eternal Witness
1 Fiend Hunter
4 Kitchen Finks
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Selfless Spirit
3 Viscera Seer
3 Vizier of Remedies
1 Walking Ballista
8 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Orzhov Pontiff
3 Path to Exile
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sin Collector
2 Tidehollow Sculler
This last list seems to be just straight GW all-in on the combo. 19 lands gives me the shivers.
3 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Razorverge Thicket
2 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
29 CREATURES
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Devoted Druid
3 Duskwatch Recruiter
4 Eternal Witness
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Spellskite
4 Vizier of Remedies
1 Walking Ballista
12 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
4 Eldritch Evolution
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Caustic Caterpillar
1 Fairgrounds Warden
1 Fiend Hunter
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Selfless Spirit
2 Sigarda, Host of Herons
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
Modern
URB Grixis Delver
GWB Abzan Company
RWB Mardu Burn
WB Martyr Proc
My list:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/abzan-company-devoted-rallier-20/
Some notes on card choices:
Ballista:
I think ballista is a really embarrasing creature in most matchups in modern. Especially in our harder matchups. It's just horrible against control, death's shadow, eldrazi, tron, valakut etc, and it's also a coco miss.
The matchups where ballista is a good creature its own is Affinity, coco, elves, Soul Sisters and hatebears. He’s fine against merfolk and dredge and a few other as well.
Rhonas:
In something like 99% of cases, Rhonas is good enough. You should play your deck, gain infinite life and bolster and all that stuff before attacking anyway. (also not really possible online)
However, Rhonas is actually a really good creature against control type decks and bad matchups. Death’s shadow can often not attack at all with him and a couple of creatures, and some decks simply can’t beat him. He brawls with the biggest creatures in modern and only dies to path (and a few other fringe cards).
I’ve won games against these decks by chording for Rhonas, when no other creatures would save me. Sometimes my finks and voices are just small and embarrassing. Rhonas helps a lot. Being a coco hit is great as well. (another hit if your only infinite mana payoff is coco for example)
Notes: Ensnaring bridge does nothing against Rhonas, neither does cryptic tapping the team. Druid is 0 power and can untap itself.
Cards Rhonas is sometimes bad against: Phyrexian Unlife, deflecting palm, Angel’s grace, condemn, Blessed Alliance, sometimes Thalia (first strike)
(note that you will still probably win against these cards if you play properly and draw/play your deck first, it's just sometimes you sometimes have to play around)
Mirror entity is fine imo, but a bit mana intensive and fragile.
Fiend hunter:
In theory he’s good. However all the matchups I want him in are matchups where they have so much removal, he’s more of a liability on an embarrassing body than an asset. Unless you can sac him in response to trigger, I would much rather just sideboard in lots of paths and maelstrom pulses. Kalitas and oozes aren’t such a huge problem as they used to be since we have a better combo that doesn’t use the graveyeard anyway.
Spellskite vs Selfless Spirit:
Selfless spirit is just better these days. There are so few bolts and so many pushes. There are however angers and other boardwipes. Spirit can also attack, block things from affinity and plays well with Renegade rallier. You can also do things like triple block big threats and kill something. Spellskite might come back, but for now I think spirit is much better.
Flickerwisp:
I thought it’s be good in theory, but after testing I found it mediocre.. It was ofte a sorcery speed low impact 3 mana spell. Once in a while it did something cool, from a cooc or chord.
Voice of Resurgence:
This card is soo good against difficult matchups. It can sometimes win the game alone against control. If they kill your voice on their turn and you follow up with rallier it can just be game over.
Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit:
I like the old combo as well. I think diversifying and having 2 good combos is great, and infinite bolster has been usefull. Bolster on druid is also cool.
Sideboard:
Distended Mindbender vs Tidehollow Sculler:
I see I differ from most lists by running mindbender. There are a couple of reasons. Mindbender is so much better against control. Sculler is bad against control, and even worse against decks with kolaghans command. It’s a liability and dies to the same cards that the rest of our deck does.
Mindbender on the other hand, attacks from a completely different angle. It doesn’t die to push or anger or Ugin while being a 2 or 3 for 1 most often. It just wrecks Ad Nauseam, and it can sometimes even brawl with goyfs, thought knot seers and reality smashers.
I think Sculler is better against storm and fast combo decks, but I bring in Mindbender in more matchups than I would sculler. Double black is a downside, but worth it imo. I’ve snagged damnations, cryptics, kalitas, oozes, reality smashers, or even angel’s graze + ad nauseam from the same cast. It’s not a minor annoyance as Sculler might be, it’s sometimes just a 1 card lights out combo.
Eidolon of Rhetoric AND Ethersworn Canonist ??
First of all, I want more than 1 hatepiece for these decks. Second, chording for Eidolon turn 3 is unfortunately very difficult, while chording for 2 on turn 3 is usually possible. Just gives me an easier time against storm, ad Nauseam and some fringe combo decks. Eidolon is the better card though.
Maelstrom Pulse vs Abrubt decay:
I think people still on Abrubt decay haven’t seen yet how good maelstrom pulse actually is, or are on old lists. You will sometimes kill 2+ death’s shadow with it or 2 goyfs, but that’s not the main reason to run it. Maelstrom pulse can be brought in against decks where abrubt decay is useless. Want to kill a black leyline, a kalitas, lingering souls, while still hitting all the relevant hate you might want to hit? Maelstrom Pulse has you covered.
You can’t bring in abrubt decay incase they have grafdiggers, rest in peace, or bring in path against control decks that might bring in Kalitas or lingering souls, but you CAN bring in Maelstrom Pulse against almost any deck in modern and hit good targets.
As much as I like Voice of Resurgence, it gets much worse relative to the number of renegade ralliers and viscera seers, both of which are worse in a druid-vizier build.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
Why are they worse? There are a lot of flex slots after you put in 4 druids and 3/4 vizier. You won't always have your combo to win, you probably have to play a real game of magic more often than you combo. Voices even protect you going for the combo if they are in play. Being all in on the druid combo isn't enough imo, you still need to play a real game, and having several angles of attack makes it harder to play against and sideboard against.
As you said yourself, once we have infinite mana its pretty hard to lose either way. That's why when considering two wincons that do the same job, you should instead think about which will serve you better when things aren't going according to plan. Ballista without infinite mana is still an absolute beating vs many of the best decks in modern. Cast it for 6 mana (which is easily achievable by turn 4 in this deck) and your opponent can no longer play x/2s or x/1s unless they have hexproof. He can easily deal with problem cards like lingering souls at a nearly 1-for-1 mana rate, and in the meantime forces them to waste removal on him to prevent us growing him each turn.
By comparison, in a non-infinite mana situation, entity is pretty meh unless you're playing against a deck without any removal and also not many blockers. Rhonas is only slightly better, as we don't run *any* 4 power creatures, he is essentially a 3 mana do-nothing that requires 3 additional mana and another creature out with at least 2 power to do something.
So that's the 3 creatures in a non infinite situation. Let's call that a middle case. As we've established, in the "best case" situation the card you obviously want is Ballista. In the "middle case" ballista also seems better. Now let's talk worst case.
Worst case Rhonas: you draw him, cast him, he eats a path to exile. Alternative: you draw him, cast him, and all your creatures have 1 or less power, meaning you need 6 mana to attack or block with him. Pretty bad.
Worst case entity: you hit him on CoCo or cast him and he gets bolted or pathed. Entity is clearly the worst of the 3, he fails the bolt test miserably and is fairly useless without infinite mana.
Worst case Ballista: you hit CoCo and get the unlucky dice roll, the only critter in your top 6 is Ballista. Feels bad man. Alternative: you topdeck him when you needed a combo piece or answer, cast him for value and he eats some removal or blocks a creature and pings your opponent.
Overall, it seems Ballista is still the best of the 3 in each scenario. If he eats removal you have at minimum 2-for-1d your opponent. If you cast him with infinite mana you win in the spot, and if the game gets long and grindy, he's easily our 3rd best late game topdeck after CoCo and Chord.
Also, I think it's a mistake to say winning via combat damage isn't a big difference vs winning instantly. With the Rhonas or Entity plan you are opening yourself up to losing to blessed alliance or path to exile if you only have a single attacker. You can get blown out by a fog, or an angels Grace, etc.
Ultimately time will tell, but I am pretty firmly in the ballista camp because it has a much better secondary utility and in the meantime is a much better combo piece if you have infinite mana.
Also the only card that misses ballista is CoCo. You can still win off a chord with ballista as the wincon if you run a single duskwatch recruiter (who is on his own a wonderful grindy card)
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
Currently playing this deck:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Horizon Canopy
2 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Gavony Township
//Creatures 29
4 Devoted Druid
4 Vizier of Remedies
2 Duskwatch Recruiter
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
1 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
1 Viscera Seer
3 Kitchen Finks
4 Eternal Witness
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Birds of Paradise
//Noncreature 8
4 Collected Company
4 Chord of Calling
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Worship
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Spellskite
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Eidolon of Rethoric
2 Stony Silence
2 Path to Exile
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Burrenton Forge Tender
1 Orzhov Pontiv
Can see cutting the 4th Eternal Witness for 1 Elvish Visionary. But most of the time we will win anyways when having the infinite mana combo. I am a big fan of playing Rhonas the Indomitable because this allows me to play Stony Silence from the sideboard. Worship is against my local meta which has some Elves, Merfolk, Affinity and Soul Sisters decks floating around.
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
I have T4 killed with entity by dork dork druid dork entity T4 swing for lethal. This is a way you steal games. Mirror entity is great against uninteractive decks. It's also quite good against red based removal decks since you can blank damage based removal often. I've had entity save my board from anger multiple times. The Lola when someone drops a Lord of Atlantis are also real.
Rhonas shines against fair decks. He's hard to remove and makes combat a nightmare.
Walking ballista is good against opposing small creature decks you're already strong against. It almost never speeds up your clock over rhonas because if they have removal they will use it on druid.
It's not a bad card just not the mana dump we want. Not game 1 anyway. It's a fine sideboard card when you need to beat stuff like worship or unlife....but usually worse than rec sage or pridemage or catterpillar
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
The entity and Rhonas hate come from a place of informed analysis, not spite. I don't want to play 3 mana creatures that don't do anything on their own and require a minimum of 3 mana + other creatures on the field to attack or block. I don't want to t3 CoCo into Rhonas and then have to hold up 3 mana on t4 if I want to attack or block with him. Unless you have a creature with 2 power out, double that mana requirement to 6.
Go look at the druid/vizier lists that have topped or placed in leagues and tourneys. Virtually all of them are playing Ballista, and that's because it's clearly the best card.
In your response, could you explain the matchup you'd prefer to have Rhonas or Entity as your wincon? I can't think of any personally.
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
Eh. I don't think a handful of randomly displayed mtgo league top 8s are anything to base analysis about an emerging deck. If my wolf run list 5-0s and gets shown does that mean it's the best?
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
As for your point about the lists that have posted results, I guess it's the difference between anecdotal evidence and actual evidence. You claim your list with Rhonas is better, i claim ballista lists are better, but only one of us has evidence to support those claims.
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
Entity is better against ad nauseam, storm (because it allows you to kill faster without combo), living end, any red based deck, any tron deck, merfolk,
I already listed the deck archetypes that they are better against and didn't figure I needed to list them.
In general entity shines in unfair racing and rhonas against midrange/control.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Those are matchups which can be quite faster. Since Elves is my pet-deck you can easily get a semi-win by playing Balista for 2 and kill the T1 dork (if you're on the play). Same is true for Merfolk, killing one of their Lords or even the MotW will make this matchup slighlty easier. I agree that those are good matchups, bit I still think instant winning in the mainphase is better than going to combat
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
Went 2/1 with the loss being a mill to really crappy 6 on the draw (rally witness 3 non fetch lands, drew lands, a druid and 3x3 drops). First two games were turn 5 kills through at least some disruption, one natural duskwatch and one wolf run off the top.
Overall I felt strongly favored game 1. They cannot afford to remove my dorks and the mana advantage tends to be marked.
My guess is that dsj is a strongly favored matchup to naya across the board. They are pretty vulnerable to wolf run and coco. We'll do some post board games tomorrow hopefully.
I suspect abzan vizier to be more advantaged although I'm not sure. Rallier is very good in the matchup, serving to exacerbate the mana and width advantage.
For my build this is my mental matchup map at:
Good
Dsj abzan elves merfolk abzviz affinity
Even
Burn Tron bant eldrazi ad nauseum grixis control
Bad
Scapeshift storm uw control allies
Not 100 percent sure bout that but seems right. Suspect abzan Coco is similar but uw control might be a hair better and ad nauseum a bit worse (or better?)
Also think my build is better vs Tron and worse vs scapshift come to think of it. Sin collector is great.
Tron feels winnable now but remand and electrolyze and/or main deck angers out of scapeshift decks are hard to beat. I suspect if Tron was on pyroclasm it would be bad again.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
My son plays Bant Eldrazi and I am 6-0 against him, has never even been close. Eldrazi-Tron might be a different matter. Also has Blue Moon which I am 0-3 against and Storm, which completely depends on home draw, who plays first, and whether or not I get my Eidolon or a Chord in hand. I should add I've played 3 matches against Kiki Chord, which Hooglund now has inspired a mainboard Linvala for, and Linvala/Spellskite is a tough lock against a deck that can grind better. I did win one game through Linvala with Gavony. And those where Linvala was not found/chorded for.
Any snapcaster deck is going to be rough. A snap electrolyze or snap forked bolt could easily spell a game. I really like mirror entity and rhonas in those matches. Sandbag told you can drop it and pump to 4 or just play or rhonas.
Cheap counters particularly dispel can also be a problem. Pharika is a pretty ridiculous bomb against snap bolt decks so consider one of those.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall