Do you ever find you're missing any of the mana once you combo (W/R/B)? Or have you found the combination of rallier and horizon canopy has meant you always have what you need? If not, could wild cantor be an option or is that just win-more?
Edit - just realised you don't run seer in your current decklist so ignore reference to producing black.
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My build doesn't need b. I've been short white mana to cast entity once but I was able to witness chord it instead. One game I had to use my red mana to rec sage a chalice and couldn't activate wolf run that turn but I didn't have the ability to fetch rhonas or entity.
I generally feel like if you go off with recruiter it's so vanishingly rare that you lose and you usually can witness for the win somehow. Playing some kind of mana fixing critter seems more likely to lose you games by drawing crappy cards than steal wins, but in my build I could see the argument for one ssg.
I try not to build around corner cases until they come up a few times and so far it's pretty rare to lose games because of mana. The third combo piece is far more likely to be Coco or chord than your Singleton creatures, and if you cast one of those to set your combo up you can just witness it back.
Has the difficulty in comboing off on MODO changed at all over the past few months? I've got a lot of the pieces needed to finish a rough CoCo build but I always heard pulling off the combo was a nightmare. I know Knightfall is also going around but I don't have Voice of Resurgences yet.
Like I said, I saw a few online 5-0s running playsets of combo pieces and tried those out. See this one for reference. I figured as the deck was already "all-in" that I might as well add 2 Witness and 1 Rhonas, cutting the 3 Fatal Push that always felt awkward. Also, some sideboard changes, as I believe the toolbox approach serves the deck just better.
I haven't cut any Seer because it works just fine in this version of the deck. Natural Turn 3 infinite life is still a thing and you can always sacrifice irrelevant stuff to improve your draws. It just feels really smooth and it works just fine. Try it out
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Modern:WU WU Control | WBG Abzan Company Frontier:UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
Has the difficulty in comboing off on MODO changed at all over the past few months? I've got a lot of the pieces needed to finish a rough CoCo build but I always heard pulling off the combo was a nightmare. I know Knightfall is also going around but I don't have Voice of Resurgences yet.
Now you can auto yield to all your cards named X. This works for the Kitchen Finks triggers, but you still gotta resolve bolster/scry one by one. Infinite mana isn't too bad, just lots of clicks on Druid. With Ballista and Rhonas you still take some time, but at least you straight out kill your opponent for all your troubles.
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Thanks! I can feel the improvement as well. I can see your point regarding big events, but 2 things here: 1) we don't have that kind of data so far, so we gotta work with what we have and 2) I play online, so that's the metagame and results I care about, for lack of a better word. Not dimissing paper players, just acknowledging mine is a different focus.
What you say about patterns vs single results is also true. I mean, 5-0 doesn't mean a 100% winrate, it could be anywhere, but my 24-11 record tells me the deck has potential. I just wanted a starting point and thought that one was the closest one to my tastes, and while I think I made the right choice, I may end up closer to a "stock list". For reference, the average of the 5-0s this month is ~2.5 Viscera Seer and ~3.4 Devoted Druid, off the top of my head.
What worries me is the Grixis Shadow matchup. Like I mentioned, it has been awful on both gameplay and record (1-6). How do you guys go about it? Any tips and suggestions with keep and mulls, gameplay and sideboarding? Is the matchup just awful regardless? Thanks for the feedback!
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While I wouldn't do it I can see the reasoning behind fatal push. Ramping your opponent in a ramp deck is always iffy since it counteracts your strategy.
Haven't played the grixis shadow deck but I'd generally expect Pharika to be good there. They're all ground pounders who die to deathtouch snakes.
Grixis delver usually revolves around finks as the best card in the main deck, and township+finks should be essentially unbeatable.
Alright Pokken, I'm gonna give your version a spin at a GPT tomorrow night. I see stuff like Grim Lavamancer in the main, you apparently got rid of Mirror Entity? And I'm not sure what exactly Fiery Justice and Primal Command is for in the side. If you would - please explain some of these choices and why they were made, if possible, skew some sideboard cards toward a more control-oriented meta because that's what's local around me, and I'll do as good a job as I can playing your 75 so I can see your side of the argument.
If writing up a new list is easier, by all means do that.
Alright Pokken, I'm gonna give your version a spin at a GPT tomorrow night. I see stuff like Grim Lavamancer in the main, you apparently got rid of Mirror Entity? And I'm not sure what exactly Fiery Justice and Primal Command is for in the side. If you would - please explain some of these choices and why they were made, if possible, skew some sideboard cards toward a more control-oriented meta because that's what's local around me, and I'll do as good a job as I can playing your 75 so I can see your side of the argument.
If writing up a new list is easier, by all means do that.
I swapped Rhonas for entity once but will not be playing it this friday, I like entity better. The main deck I play this friday will be exactly the same as it is except Mirror entity -> Rhonas. Lavamancer is there as the 9th 1drop -- it could be an avacyn's pilgrim, but I've liked the lavamancer overall. It's good at stalling aggro decks.
The sideboard is tuned to my meta, primal command was awful (I had 3 in there to test) -- it was intended as anti-death's shadow / anti-control tech (since you can make goyf a 1/2 and kill death's shadows with its modes, and it's also a 2-for-1). I had 3 in there to test. Fiery Justice is anti-aggro tech that is also stellar against Shadow decks (since you can kill a goyf with it then make them gain life). It's there because my meta has a lot of merfolk and allies and elves.
I made you a copy with a sideboard that's probably closer to what I would run in an open field with a control bent. Against a true control heavy deck I would -4 chord +2 nahiri +1 reveillark +1 whisperwood and then whatever else depending on the specifics.
I also left Rhonas in for your version because a control heavy meta rhonas is better than entity. Entity better vs. combo, burn and tron.
If you expect lots of tron, cut fiery justice for crumble and play the mirror entity.
Additional sideboarding comments:
I am sure you know how to preemptively sideboard against yard hate but I almost always bring in either or both pridemage and rec sage if I have even the least suspicion of a yard/chord/coco hate card.
I usually cut no more than 2 noble hierarchs from dorks.
I almost always cut 1-2 vizier post board vs control, and it's generally fine, even without chords. It's so hard to untap with a druid against removal heavy decks.
And here's a quickie sideboarding guide for some popular decks that I know how I'd sb against
DSJ (also bring in forgetender if you expect anger or pyroclasm)
-1 vizier, -3 chord, -2 hierarch, -1 lavamancer (-4th chord, -2 vizier)
+2 nahiri, +2 fiery justice, +1 harpooner, +1 rec sage, +1 pridemage (+reveillark, +forge tender if you expect them to be boarding grindy / sweepers).
I tend to let this match boarding float a bit. The guy at my shop who plays DSJ has a ton of hate so I usually have to board a lot.
Tron in general (GW, etc.)
-2 eternal witness (-lavamancer, -3 witness)
+ rec sage + pridemage (+2 crumble if you have them)
Whisperwood could be OK against Tron on the play but it's really a struggle to get to 5 mana. The upside is if you have a few dorks this beats ostone and all is dust pretty badly. I would not try it myself but it's worth thinking about.
Allies / Elves
-1 chord, -1 selfless spirit, -3 rallier/witness (need to use your best judgment, while I've usually preferred rallier witnessing a justice is gg)
+2 fiery justice, +1 ethersworn canonist, +1 harpooner, +1 rec sage
I might try some nahiris on the play but not strongly recommended.
So I've been doing a lot of testing online and finally found a deck list I think I like. It's not as all-in as Pokken's (which I tested a lot and had an insane number of T2-T3 wins).
What this deck does though, is grind like a mofo if it cant combo off. Win rate is good; and likely what I'll be taking to SCG Baltimore:
The spots I'm most concerned about are:
1) Tireless Tracker - probably the biggest flux card in this build that is rarely a big gamechanger. I'm inclined to swap him for something.
2) Grafdiggers cage. I think I might need more SB tech against this; maybe -2 path, +2 Abrupt Decay
I really think the tracker is bad. It makes you run more fetches than we need and is just worse than the 4th witness.
Witness Coco wins games and it's even more exaggerated now that the abzan list has such a high combo density.
I like most of what you're doing otherwise but would find room for a third township. so many dorks we can definitely support it.
I agree; Tracker is the weakest of the bunch. Combo density is nuts and really easy to put together.
Township wins games, but the games it tends to win run long and I normally hit one naturally anyways. What I might try in the Tracker slot is a Knight of the Reliquary which can act as a tutor for a Township, and is a much much better late game beater.
I can see cutting the 4th vizier. I often side one out and with Fink's combo and anafenza it seems reasonable.
Vizier is a horridly bad card on it's own and overexposes you to electrolyze and pontiff and darkblast and similar. I like 4 in my build but can get behind the one anafenza in abzan.
I do feel really strongly about the 4th witness. It is much better than any other 3 cmc critter.
I can see cutting the 4th vizier. I often side one out and with Fink's combo and anafenza it seems reasonable.
Vizier is a horridly bad card on it's own and overexposes you to electrolyze and pontiff and darkblast and similar. I like 4 in my build but can get behind the one anafenza in abzan.
I do feel really strongly about the 4th witness. It is much better than any other 3 cmc critter.
I agree completely with you on the Vizier. 3 of seems like the sweet spot in my testing. I often find I'm short mana outlets; I like 2 Duskwatch / 3 Vizier instead of 1/4 split that I see in a lot of lists.
Witness I almost completely agree with you; however the backup plan of beats is a little harder to pull off with a 2/1 body than a 3/2 body (which is why I like the Ralliers). Finks obviously helps here
I have been off of this deck for a while, but with the addition of the new infinite mana combo I am excited to play coco again. I think we are likely a few weeks away from finding the best build for the new combo, but my intuition is that a slightly modified version of the traditional abzan company deck is the best place to start. I've noticed that by adding 4 devoted druid flex cards like voice of resurgence and scavenging ooze have been reduced in number. This seems to me like a real sacrifice as the plan B of beating down with dorks and gavony township seems weaker in most lists. For this reason I am planning to test a list with 2 mirror entity. Entity is obviously infinite combat damage with the mana combo, but in my tentative testing it also represents lethal combat damage on turn 4 or 5 in a lot of cases. It feels less like a combo card and more like a good plan B card that also has the ability to do infinite combat damage. It also earns a couple of bonus points for being a good hit on chord and coco. I don't have my list finalized yet, but I can post it later with some results too if anyone is interested.
I've found running the playsets of finks / vizier is GREAT for griding in case the combo doesnt come together.
Between Vizier and Gavony, you can keep the beats/blocks coming. It's rarely hard to put the combo together G1 anyways. G2-3 you can bring in removal and more specifically tuned tech.
That said; a single KoTR is one of the things I'm finding helpful in helping with plan b. Gets big late game, tutors Gavony Township. Does pretty much all the things needed in the event you get a Druid surgically extracted or something similar.
The gavony township is weirdly much stronger now because:
1) you can afford to play *4* if you want
2) Having more mana sources makes township better
3) Devoted druid seriously synergizes with township
4) Vizier - like Melira - does not allow a window to kill finks forever, forcing people to kill vizier before trying to pop finks. So Finks is somewhat improved.
I do not think we should be playing any dumb beaters even as good as Knight. But to each their own there. I would rather just run all 4 townships and play some crazy trumps in the board.
Again just my opinions but I'd urge you to try playing 3-4 townships before any big idiots. I have won lots of games chumping with dorks and fireballing with wolf run and township should be much stronger (except at closing out games in a hurry:)).
Melira Combo could be run in BG-Colors only (Melira + Finks + Seer + Redcap), so a red splash could easily be included.
There is no Thread for this kind of deck, so do you have better suggestions in Jund Colors?
Melira Combo could be run in BG-Colors only (Melira + Finks + Seer + Redcap), so a red splash could easily be included.
There is no Thread for this kind of deck, so do you have better suggestions in Jund Colors?
So without township I don't think it has legs. If Vizier was green I would definitely try Jund wolf run combo (lots of great creatures in those colors). But wolf run without vizier is just OK, not nearly as good as township in general with finks.
I do not think it is a deck worth thinking too much about. But this would be a decent place to talk about it if you had something actually reasonable that isn't just worse Abzan.
I work on my Naya version because it's got an edge (It's faster and better vs. Tron).
Edit - just realised you don't run seer in your current decklist so ignore reference to producing black.
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I generally feel like if you go off with recruiter it's so vanishingly rare that you lose and you usually can witness for the win somehow. Playing some kind of mana fixing critter seems more likely to lose you games by drawing crappy cards than steal wins, but in my build I could see the argument for one ssg.
I try not to build around corner cases until they come up a few times and so far it's pretty rare to lose games because of mana. The third combo piece is far more likely to be Coco or chord than your Singleton creatures, and if you cast one of those to set your combo up you can just witness it back.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
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I haven't cut any Seer because it works just fine in this version of the deck. Natural Turn 3 infinite life is still a thing and you can always sacrifice irrelevant stuff to improve your draws. It just feels really smooth and it works just fine. Try it out
Frontier: UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
Frontier: UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
What you say about patterns vs single results is also true. I mean, 5-0 doesn't mean a 100% winrate, it could be anywhere, but my 24-11 record tells me the deck has potential. I just wanted a starting point and thought that one was the closest one to my tastes, and while I think I made the right choice, I may end up closer to a "stock list". For reference, the average of the 5-0s this month is ~2.5 Viscera Seer and ~3.4 Devoted Druid, off the top of my head.
What worries me is the Grixis Shadow matchup. Like I mentioned, it has been awful on both gameplay and record (1-6). How do you guys go about it? Any tips and suggestions with keep and mulls, gameplay and sideboarding? Is the matchup just awful regardless? Thanks for the feedback!
Frontier: UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
Haven't played the grixis shadow deck but I'd generally expect Pharika to be good there. They're all ground pounders who die to deathtouch snakes.
Grixis delver usually revolves around finks as the best card in the main deck, and township+finks should be essentially unbeatable.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
If writing up a new list is easier, by all means do that.
I swapped Rhonas for entity once but will not be playing it this friday, I like entity better. The main deck I play this friday will be exactly the same as it is except Mirror entity -> Rhonas. Lavamancer is there as the 9th 1drop -- it could be an avacyn's pilgrim, but I've liked the lavamancer overall. It's good at stalling aggro decks.
The sideboard is tuned to my meta, primal command was awful (I had 3 in there to test) -- it was intended as anti-death's shadow / anti-control tech (since you can make goyf a 1/2 and kill death's shadows with its modes, and it's also a 2-for-1). I had 3 in there to test. Fiery Justice is anti-aggro tech that is also stellar against Shadow decks (since you can kill a goyf with it then make them gain life). It's there because my meta has a lot of merfolk and allies and elves.
I made you a copy with a sideboard that's probably closer to what I would run in an open field with a control bent. Against a true control heavy deck I would -4 chord +2 nahiri +1 reveillark +1 whisperwood and then whatever else depending on the specifics.
I also left Rhonas in for your version because a control heavy meta rhonas is better than entity. Entity better vs. combo, burn and tron.
If you expect lots of tron, cut fiery justice for crumble and play the mirror entity.
https://deckbox.org/sets/1706931
Additional sideboarding comments:
I am sure you know how to preemptively sideboard against yard hate but I almost always bring in either or both pridemage and rec sage if I have even the least suspicion of a yard/chord/coco hate card.
I usually cut no more than 2 noble hierarchs from dorks.
I almost always cut 1-2 vizier post board vs control, and it's generally fine, even without chords. It's so hard to untap with a druid against removal heavy decks.
And here's a quickie sideboarding guide for some popular decks that I know how I'd sb against
Burn
-3 eternal witess -1 chord -1 flickerwisp
+1 firewalker +1 missionary +1 rec sage (kills eidolon and RIP) +1 scavenging ooze +1 forge tender
DSJ (also bring in forgetender if you expect anger or pyroclasm)
-1 vizier, -3 chord, -2 hierarch, -1 lavamancer (-4th chord, -2 vizier)
+2 nahiri, +2 fiery justice, +1 harpooner, +1 rec sage, +1 pridemage (+reveillark, +forge tender if you expect them to be boarding grindy / sweepers).
I tend to let this match boarding float a bit. The guy at my shop who plays DSJ has a ton of hate so I usually have to board a lot.
Tron in general (GW, etc.)
-2 eternal witness (-lavamancer, -3 witness)
+ rec sage + pridemage (+2 crumble if you have them)
Whisperwood could be OK against Tron on the play but it's really a struggle to get to 5 mana. The upside is if you have a few dorks this beats ostone and all is dust pretty badly. I would not try it myself but it's worth thinking about.
Allies / Elves
-1 chord, -1 selfless spirit, -3 rallier/witness (need to use your best judgment, while I've usually preferred rallier witnessing a justice is gg)
+2 fiery justice, +1 ethersworn canonist, +1 harpooner, +1 rec sage
I might try some nahiris on the play but not strongly recommended.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
What this deck does though, is grind like a mofo if it cant combo off. Win rate is good; and likely what I'll be taking to SCG Baltimore:
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Devoted Druid
Creatures:
1 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
4 Kitchen Finks
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
2 Duskwatch Recruiter
3 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Viscera Seer
3 Vizier of Remedies
1 Spellskite
2 Renegade Rallier
4 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
Land:
2 Forest
2 Gavony Township
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Razorverge Thicket
2 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Voice of Resurgence
4 Path to Exile
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
The spots I'm most concerned about are:
1) Tireless Tracker - probably the biggest flux card in this build that is rarely a big gamechanger. I'm inclined to swap him for something.
2) Grafdiggers cage. I think I might need more SB tech against this; maybe -2 path, +2 Abrupt Decay
Otherwise, deck is running smoothly.
Witness Coco wins games and it's even more exaggerated now that the abzan list has such a high combo density.
I like most of what you're doing otherwise but would find room for a third township. so many dorks we can definitely support it.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I agree; Tracker is the weakest of the bunch. Combo density is nuts and really easy to put together.
Township wins games, but the games it tends to win run long and I normally hit one naturally anyways. What I might try in the Tracker slot is a Knight of the Reliquary which can act as a tutor for a Township, and is a much much better late game beater.
Vizier is a horridly bad card on it's own and overexposes you to electrolyze and pontiff and darkblast and similar. I like 4 in my build but can get behind the one anafenza in abzan.
I do feel really strongly about the 4th witness. It is much better than any other 3 cmc critter.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I agree completely with you on the Vizier. 3 of seems like the sweet spot in my testing. I often find I'm short mana outlets; I like 2 Duskwatch / 3 Vizier instead of 1/4 split that I see in a lot of lists.
Witness I almost completely agree with you; however the backup plan of beats is a little harder to pull off with a 2/1 body than a 3/2 body (which is why I like the Ralliers). Finks obviously helps here
Between Vizier and Gavony, you can keep the beats/blocks coming. It's rarely hard to put the combo together G1 anyways. G2-3 you can bring in removal and more specifically tuned tech.
That said; a single KoTR is one of the things I'm finding helpful in helping with plan b. Gets big late game, tutors Gavony Township. Does pretty much all the things needed in the event you get a Druid surgically extracted or something similar.
1) you can afford to play *4* if you want
2) Having more mana sources makes township better
3) Devoted druid seriously synergizes with township
4) Vizier - like Melira - does not allow a window to kill finks forever, forcing people to kill vizier before trying to pop finks. So Finks is somewhat improved.
I do not think we should be playing any dumb beaters even as good as Knight. But to each their own there. I would rather just run all 4 townships and play some crazy trumps in the board.
Again just my opinions but I'd urge you to try playing 3-4 townships before any big idiots. I have won lots of games chumping with dorks and fireballing with wolf run and township should be much stronger (except at closing out games in a hurry:)).
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
i was looking for a Jund collected company-Deck.
Melira Combo could be run in BG-Colors only (Melira + Finks + Seer + Redcap), so a red splash could easily be included.
There is no Thread for this kind of deck, so do you have better suggestions in Jund Colors?
Green @ it's best
So without township I don't think it has legs. If Vizier was green I would definitely try Jund wolf run combo (lots of great creatures in those colors). But wolf run without vizier is just OK, not nearly as good as township in general with finks.
I do not think it is a deck worth thinking too much about. But this would be a decent place to talk about it if you had something actually reasonable that isn't just worse Abzan.
I work on my Naya version because it's got an edge (It's faster and better vs. Tron).
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I would envisage going -4 chord +3 magus and +1 slaughter games (along with Tidehollow, mindcensor etc). Thoughts?
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Why so Bloo? RU