Went 5-3 at an open event today (134 people), for 29th place. Okay result, but wasn't super-happy about it given that I went 3-0 to start (though a good friend of mine started 5-0, then lost both of his win-and-ins to the top 8, then lost rd 8 to miss prizing as well, he was really disappointed.)
RD 1 - UW Eldrazi (W 2-0) - he never nut drew, whereas I drew well, including 2x Skite in game one to protect combo. Combo G1, Beats G2.
RD 2- RW Burn (W 2-0) - easy win in 2, not quite a bye, but a really, really favorable match-up.
RD 3 - GR Eldrazi (W 2-0) - almost screwed up G1, but realized at last moment that yes, Wall of Roots produces 2 green mana for chord (duh), so chorded for Combo in resp to the graveyard-recast Kozilek's Return trigger, then scry'd to good section of library for later win. G2 Thoughtseize (taking Smasher) + no Sol lands meant beat-down win. Anafenza did work in bolstering out of KR's range (the 2 dmg) in both games.
RD 4- Lantern Control (L 2-0) - G1 I had an almost nut-draw hand, but lost due to opponents' perfect draw - had not one but two Surgical Extractions in first 10 cards to stop both Finks and Redcap combos, then had all of Bridge, Lantern and Mill rocks by the next turn. G2 he got his combo online really quickly (deja vu), and I never found the 3rd piece of mine. Excellent player though, his sequencing was fantastic and he really knew his deck.
RD 5 - UW Control (L 2-0) - scooped game one after opponent had played 5 or 6 counters, 3 paths and 3 Supreme Verdicts (partly via 3 snapcasters and him Cryptic-bouncing snaps). I drew well that game, but he had the all the answers. G2 I think I misplayed when I thoughtsiezed turn 2, saw 2x path, snapcaster, and Elspeth Sun's Champion and 3 lands. I had a great value hand and was thinking I'd swarm him, so took Snappy, but in retrospect I probably should've taken Elspeth (particularly as I'd sided out Pontiff). His next couple topdecks were Negate (for my coco) and Verdict, which totally shut me down, and Elspeth got him the win.
RD 6 - GW Elves (L 2-0) - Bad matchup, but g1 was a close race with him getting there on t4 after I had a good t3 coco, but useless t4 coco. G2 I thoughtseize away his Craterhoof (guy only had 3 Ezuri's, so used one Craterhoof), so all he had was Archdruid on board, dorks in hand, but topdecked a coco that found Ezuri for the t4 win. As I well know, sometime Coco is the total bomb (... and of course, sometimes it just sucks - lol). Very good local player, won the previous open that this store ran with GW Elves (200+ people I believe).
RD 7 - UR Delver (W 2-0) - with us both out of prize contention after rd 6 losses, my opponent seemed kinda bummed-out and he didn't play well. He missed quite a few triggers over the course of the match, which, coupled with my good draw G1 got me there (G2 I flooded and we played in top-deck mode for quite a while).
RD 8 - UG Infect (W 2-1) - G1 opponent had me dead if he topdecked pump spells after T4, but didn't and after having fun with Seer/Redcap/Townshipping to keep killing his 1/1 dudes, I finally got Melira in play. G2 I kept a slower, only marginally interactive hand (bad choice) and he got there after using 2 Dismembers on my potentially blocking creaures. G3 I nut drew vs. him (Melira, Skite, Path, Chord + 3 lands) so just played a little carefully around his possible outs and got there pretty easily.
During the tournament, the losses to Lantern and UW control both felt like unlucky ones to me (and maybe they were), but I think it may also be a function of Abzan Coco now being on people's radar as one of the decks-to-beat; almost all my opponents had specifically-targeted hate coming in from their board.
The 2nd Fiend Hunter in the SB was useless - it was a last minute addition for Eldrazi, and in both Eldrazi matchups when I came to actually sideboarding I felt I didn't want to bring it in (too much other useful stuff to keep/bring in). Poor preparation on that one on my part - I basically played with a 14 card SB.
Linvala sat in the board all day until the Elves matchup. Trouble is, she may be too slow even there. :-( Probably won't use her again.
Path and Decay were both great when I brought them in.
Not sure about Thoughtseize - chose that over Tidehollow Sculler because of Eldrazi, but it still just feels awkward in the deck (though to be fair I didn't play any hardcore combo decks outside of Infect and perhaps shouldn't have sided it against UW control or Elves).
Rec Sage was great vs. the sideboard hate - almost outright won me a game vs. UW eldrazi's RIP. I really like the 2nd enchant/artifact creature-based-hate from the board.
Really wish I had some number of Horizon Canopies instead of Thickets - flooded a couple times and that could've mitigated the flood somewhat. Rarely would the 1-3 dmg I would've taken have mattered. I think this one matters more than Verdant Catacombs - I've found it seldom matters that I have Wooded Foothills instead.
Voices mainboard were very hit-and-miss - either an all-star, or my first card sided out. The deck already has a lot of swingy-ness to it, so I wish there was something more consistent for this slot at cmc 2.
The more I play this deck, the more I feel like there's quite a few flex spots - spots that the best md or sb cards maybe haven't been printed/discovered yet. Probably gonna take a break from the deck for now, if for no other reason than I just need a change - been going for 8 or 9 months now, longest I've ever been on a deck for. I'll probably come back to it, since I think it's my favorite deck that I've ever played (so many lines, so many cool things you can do, and so powerful!)
@Wilier: I should rephrase, the top 50 cards played in successful decks. E.g. Top8 decks. So yeah, it gets played by people who are winning. Not to mention that 17 of the latest 25 in a search I've just done now of successful decks included some number in their sideboard... That is a pretty strong indicator that a card is relevant in the meta still, which was my point.
Also, I only listed the relevant cards to hit for our deck. The comment claiming that I "don't need to explain what it does by listing everything" only seems to imply that you don't recognise the list is partial, which leads me to believe you must not play modern very much competitively. The comprehensive list is much longer.
Anyway, this thread sure has gotten pretty toxic lately. Sure, I can understand not wanting to have it in your own 75x, but basically saying that everyone else is an idiot is not exactly a constructive discussion.
Although Decay certainly isn't a catch all missing manlands, Khalitas, Linvala and other 4cc hate cards like Leyline of the Void, it is definitely not narrow for us.
In the matches you bring it in (assuming you draw it) you are mostly able to hit both the hate they bring in OR a creature/PW/etc, are able to re-buy it with E-witness and don't have to use a chord to get your rec sage/qasali so it definitely has its up sides.
Comparing it to Path to exile, Path is definitely the first pick and I'd go with 3/4 Paths before including Decays in the SB.
Decay does sometimes trump Path when dealing with creatures, especially in the early stages. You don't want to ramp your opponent when killing his turn 2 Dark Confidant. You can kill mana dorks if you notice your opponent is short on lands, you hit any permanent from Merfolk except the MoW. Against Bogles Decay is a complete all star hitting their auras and suppression field/RiP/gaddock teeg where as path is nearly unusable and chording for sage/qasali may already be shut off by gaddock. In a large tournament I guarantee you that there will be situations where the versatillity of Decay comes in handy, or where you'd just wish you would have access to more creature removal than just the 3/4 paths.
Of course if you are counting on having access to X chords the ideal is to chord for rec sage/answer then chord for the missing combo piece with a spellskite chord back up but that just doesn't happen much, having an answer which doesn't rely on using up a Chord is always nice imo.
I've been using this deck for a while now and for this current creature heavy meta I like a 4 path/2 decay split, this is bound to change soon so there is honestly no real point in having such a fervorous discussion about this as I am pretty sure that we'll soon be talking about including Fulminators in the SB again to "beat" tron/scapeshift/control etc.
@gkourou: If your meta has a lot of Blood Moon, I'm unsure why you want to cut your basic Swamp. It's fairly important to have it either way in case you need to fetch for black without shocking. Not to mention can be handy to grab off a Path search. I'd just cut the 3rd Forest if you want room for the 3rd Razorverge.
I am dissapointed by this thread's quality. It's a pity because there are so many interesting people in here.
Please get over it and pull it together. Let's talk about the game and the deck more.
So, I am trying to remove the basic Swamp in order to play a 3rd Razorverge thicket. I think it's worth it. What do you guys think? This is my mana base.
(Note that my local meta is thriving on Blood Moons and has some Burn as well hence the 3rd Forest and this tryout-although I think you rarely want to open a starting Seven with a Swamp in it.)
Why are you disappointed? I can see how people are phrasing their language poorly, but we are providing both sides of the arguments here in case somebody misses them.
I wouldn't play any fewer than 4 basics I don't think but the reasoning for that is that there's a lot of ghost quarters and paths floating around my shop and I like to punish people for trying to use those. Especially aggressively ghost quartering my black sources is something I've seen happen enough to want the swamp.
It's basically about looking at your meta though--there're blood moon effects, paths, ghost quarters and burn around you'll want to keep the swamp.
I know everyone says burn is nearly a bye but that's not been my experience. It can be a close matchup and there has been at least one time where I needed to fetch black and cast a viscera seer to win but was at 2 life
Anyway take that for what it's worth - I would probably play a 3rd forest before playing another razorverge thicket though. I am really iffy on thicket in general and have had it punish me several times.
I ran a pretty standard deck list in a scg invitational qualifier today. Let me say this, I am new to the deck, still testing things out and literally had no idea the tourney was happening today till I walked in (I showed up 15 minutes before and just barely made my list in time), so yay on my first real tourney with the deck. I'm sure I embarrassed the brand but I think I should get props for showing up 15 minutes before a qualifier and saying,"Oh what the heck, lets try this/" This is the list I ran (Sorry not sure how to do the link thingy):
Creatures (30):
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Kitchen Finks
3x Noble Hierarch
3x Viscera Seer
3x Spellskite
3x Eternal Witness
2x Voice of resurgence
2x Wall of Roots
2x Anafenza Tree Kin Spirit
2x Melira Sylvok Outcast
1x Murderous Redcaps
1x Fiend Hunter
Spells (8):
4x Collected Company
4x Chord of Calling
2x Path to exile
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Quasali Pride-Mage
1x Intrepid Hero
1x Big Game Hunter
1x Sin Collector
1x Burrenton Forge Tender
1x Orzhov Pontiff
1x Archangel of Thune
1x Spike Feeder
1x Kataki War's wage
1x Worship
So in the end I went 1-3-1. I lost twice to gr tron, once to infect when I had no spellskite draw luck (despite running three main board), split with another Abzan company deck (which I was happy about because he was an experienced player and gave me tips after) and won against UW control. I'm happy with this for my first tourney but I was surprised that about 21% of the field was GR tron and that the two I played ran torpor orb side, which added insult to injury. I knew going in the match-up was bad and that these were experienced players (one having a totally foiled out deck). I managed to combo off once only to get swept and Ulamoged before the recaps could show up. So my thought is this. If I had had better luck (and I could have made mistakes I am not a great player with the deck yet) I should have probably beat infect. This deck seems like it should be strong to pretty much the entire format except tron. I'm wondering if anyone has any tips or deck edits for beating tron or if you are pretty much screwed going into the match-up. Things I learned today:
1.) 1x Skite Main is fine (maybe don't even need one main), but multiples don't seem worth it since combo pieces are redundant. Definitely came into a lot of situations where skite was all I had and I would have been happier with almost any other card in the deck.
2.) Voice of Resurgence doesn't seem very good in the deck currently. I felt like 2 other main-deck silver bullets or the back up main combo would do much better.
3.) I should run more tron counters even in main since I don't think a couple would really hurt the deck and the matchup is so bad and not too many other decks would dominate abzan company (especially if I was a cagey vet).
4.) I always wanted more removal and big game hunter and intrepid hero seem great against eldrazi (although surprisingly no one ran them at this tourney) but cant remove meaningful threats like Ulamog
5.) Worship seems like it would be good against eldrazi or storm, but I didn't see those decks.
Conclusions, I built the deck with the advice of a friend, but I feel like the meta is different then I was expecting. Here is what I was considering running in the next tourney (I got the tourney bug now):
3x Path to exile
3x Fulminator Mage
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Spellskite
1x Big Game Hunter
1x Sin Collector
1x Burrenton Forge Tender
1x Orzhov Pontiff
1x Phyrexian Revoker
Any seasoned advice is appreciated. I was also considering Liliana heretical healer since she can dodge removal, but still not sure. The good news is that I love the deck and will be maining it so I have all the time in the world to come up with different strats
I went 4-2 tonight at a ~46 person event, which was good for 12th place. I'll post the list when I get a chance with a quick summary, but essentially I went 4-0 against non-Tron decks and lost to Mono Blue and G/R Tron. Part of that was that it's a bad matchup, but part of that was just lots of bad mulligans and awkward draws. Pretty sure I should have won the Mono Blue matchup too, but I made a few misplays that turned out to be a big deal.
For the record, Abrupt Decay was great the first time I drew it, and more than fine the second time.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
We all know abrupt decay is a strong magic card, so no surprise it does OK stuff. Figuring out whether it's actually providing percentage improvements to matches more than another card is very difficult (bordering on impossible unless you track your games play by play and play lots and lots of games).
Tron is rough! I've been doing a lot of thinking about it and I almost wonder if having 2 more redcaps in the sideboard might be the best way of fixing that match. Sometimes you just want to natural draw the bastard.
I had some luck with the crumble/stomping ground route but it seemed to really compromise the sideboard (and mana).
(and then it started getting warping wailed, my God is that annoying)
I was thinking that the matchup is so bad that I would even consider stony silence, although the only other decks that would hit are robots and lantern control (i run lantern and I think the kataki should be enough altough stony silence completely shuts it down). If they natrual draw tron though or ancient strrings/sylvab scrying, it seems like a waste. I wouldnt wanna go off color to get land destruction since the manabase seems so greedy already. I was considering maybe a 2/2 spilt of thoughtsieze and inquisition of kozilek since that can hit any combo deck and early can really screw with tron. I really feel like I would run 1-2 mainboard hate and would be willing to dedicate a lot of my sideboard to it esp if they could hit multiple decks in addition to tron. I think in my mind running a main board aven mindcenso could really do some great things.
Yeah, I mean I think I would have had a better shot against both Tron decks if I didn't mull 3 times and punt once, so there's that. My 6 card hand against G/R was 5 lands and a Path, my 5 card hand was Birds, Chord, Chord, 2 land. Not much I could do with those hands.
I guess I could see the value in an extra Redcap, but I think it would be wasted sideboard space. Crumble to Dust is interesting, but again, requiring a fourth color and extra land in the board is rough. Fulminator seems like it would be fine at at least buying a turn or two, but unfortunately I cut my copy for a Linvala today. And obviously, you still only want maybe 2 copies of Fulminator before it starts getting clunky, and it doesn't do enough to swing the matchup.
I'm not that worried about Tron though. There's a good chance Eye of Ugin is the card they ban from Eldrazi, and if that's the case, Tron will take a pretty good size hit and won't be quite as popular. At that point though, I will make a more concerted effort to defeat them if they remain a strong pillar. At the moment, I think I'd just be happy with some better draws next time.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Yeah, I guess the banning will really do a number there although Im envisiong that there is a decent replacement out there, maybe summoners pact or something? I like the idea of lili since she can dodge creature removal by transforming and can do some good hand control work
Public Mod Note
(ktkenshinx):
Warning for Modern banlist discussion outside of the official thread -ktkenshinx-
Yeah, I guess the banning will really do a number there although Im envisiong that there is a decent replacement out there, maybe summoners pact or something? I like the idea of lili since she can dodge creature removal by transforming and can do some good hand control work
Not sure about Summoner's Pact, as they will rarely have GG to pay for it the next turn, and it only finds green creatures. I think they will just have to lose some inevitability and play more copies of stuff like Ulamog if they really want to draw it. Losing Eye is huge for them, as it's a land that takes up only 1 slot and gets found with all their tutors. They probably can't do much to replace it, but that's kind of the point. Tron crushes a lot of decks in the early game, and then has this redundancy in the late game too, which is pretty powerful. I don't think it's busted or anything, but I do think WOTC will probably look to keep that style of deck in check after the Eldrazi Winter. And Tron will be fine without Eye, just not quite as resilient against other long game decks.
So Tron will probably still be a problem for us post-bans, depending on how popular it remains. Eye of Ugin isn't really our problem, as we've generally lost or won by the time that card comes online. There isn't much we can do to shore up the matchup without overdosing on Sideboard cards. Liliana maindeck seems interesting and worth trying, but she definitely pulls us away from the combo a bit, which I still think is the best way to beat Tron. Going grindy is just asking to draw out the game longer which won't end well for us generally. Still, she can rebuy old combo pieces if they haven't been exiled, and in a grindier meta she probably is worth a 2-of or so for other matchups like Jund and Grixis.
If Tron is our only bad matchup, I'm not too worried about it at the moment. I still need to optimize my sideboard plan against them and get some more testing in, but as always with that deck I generally just hope to outplay or outdraw them and take my losses when that doesn't happen. Everything else is close to 50/50 or a positive matchup for us, so I think we're in good shape.
I'll be testing a lot more next month once my soccer night switches off of the Modern night at the LGS. Also, SOI is going to be a great set looks like, and I have a hunch it will effect Modern in a lot of (hopefully) good ways.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
I know everyone says burn is nearly a bye but that's not been my experience. It can be a close matchup and there has been at least one time where I needed to fetch black and cast a viscera seer to win but was at 2 life
Yeah, I agree that anyone saying burn is a bye (myself included) is an oversimplification. It's a very favorable matchup, but it still takes tight play as the individual games are almost always close. My match win vs burn (fnm + tourney) is probably 85% win, but game win percentage is like 70% - it's just really tough for them to win two outta three, just as it is for us to beat Tron two outta three with the matchup being unfavorable. My experience with both is the underdog has to twice nut draw with the other player drawing only decently, or the favorite draw really badly twice, or a combination of those two.
If burn is a struggle, or is very popular in your meta, you can always use more sb slots than just bft to help. Another thing to ask is if you're siding out combo pieces - I'd suggest not doing that as even the threat of the combo (from having one piece on board) makes the burn player usually play cautiously. Or if they just tap out and go for it (as I think they probably should), you have a higher percentage of getting uncontested wins.
I had success crumble aside from nut draws. Didn't need any extra land to play it, just a stomping ground. I never really got Fulminator to work for me with my play style. I'm still doubting Eye of Ugin get's banned. Those were bad hands though, though the list of good hands is kinda short against them anyway.
I see a lot of people on the 23 land plan. I went twenty two and didnt regret it because we run so many dorks, although if I did add a stomping ground I could try the better land destruction sideboard plan which I guess could be a two of sideboard and allow you to run away with some games. Liliana is still Interesting to me and the only issue is that her price keeps going up. It may behoove me to grab a few, I dont see it dropping anytime soon
I had success crumble aside from nut draws. Didn't need any extra land to play it, just a stomping ground. I never really got Fulminator to work for me with my play style. I'm still doubting Eye of Ugin get's banned. Those were bad hands though, though the list of good hands is kinda short against them anyway.
Stomping Ground IS the extra land, that's the point. And the problem. You are taking up valuable SB space just to cast a 1-of. Siding into it makes your deck clunkier, and you must find the ground or a bird to cast crumble, Both of which are vulnerable to removal (GQ hits your ground if they sniff out your shenanigans, which they should). It's an option in extreme circumstances but I don't love the idea. Even if you do exile their lands, they can still stabilize and interact and eventually drop wurm, karn, or Ugin for the deathknell.
Ugin seems like a pretty logical ban to me. It's 50/50 with temple for hitting eldrazi , but taking away the lategame ridiculousness from both decks seems like a good way to kill two birds with one stone. I could be wrong, but it's essentially flip a coin for which one they ban. Either way though, Tron is still bad for us.
@gkourou, I assume fiend hunter stays, at least in the board. It's not good against bolt decks, but it's still an important tutor target for low interaction creature decks and opposing hate bears. Voice probably moves to the maindeck if Grixis and Jund return to the limelight, which I assume they will.
Public Mod Note
(ktkenshinx):
Warning for Modern banlist discussion outside of the official thread -ktkenshinx-
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
It's not extra because you would replace land. Siding into it seem to make our deck clunkier, but there are plenty of things to swap out in that match up. I was more skeptical at first, but I had good results with 3 in my sideboard. I haven't lost to Tron yet if they didn't have Tron, but I understand that is just me. It was far better for me than Fulminator was. Also, finding Stomping Ground is not that difficult when you look through your deck for it. You are right about GQ that has happened, but I still won that game by having more time to combo with redcap bc they had played and used a GQ.
RD 1 - UW Eldrazi (W 2-0) - he never nut drew, whereas I drew well, including 2x Skite in game one to protect combo. Combo G1, Beats G2.
RD 2- RW Burn (W 2-0) - easy win in 2, not quite a bye, but a really, really favorable match-up.
RD 3 - GR Eldrazi (W 2-0) - almost screwed up G1, but realized at last moment that yes, Wall of Roots produces 2 green mana for chord (duh), so chorded for Combo in resp to the graveyard-recast Kozilek's Return trigger, then scry'd to good section of library for later win. G2 Thoughtseize (taking Smasher) + no Sol lands meant beat-down win. Anafenza did work in bolstering out of KR's range (the 2 dmg) in both games.
RD 4- Lantern Control (L 2-0) - G1 I had an almost nut-draw hand, but lost due to opponents' perfect draw - had not one but two Surgical Extractions in first 10 cards to stop both Finks and Redcap combos, then had all of Bridge, Lantern and Mill rocks by the next turn. G2 he got his combo online really quickly (deja vu), and I never found the 3rd piece of mine. Excellent player though, his sequencing was fantastic and he really knew his deck.
RD 5 - UW Control (L 2-0) - scooped game one after opponent had played 5 or 6 counters, 3 paths and 3 Supreme Verdicts (partly via 3 snapcasters and him Cryptic-bouncing snaps). I drew well that game, but he had the all the answers. G2 I think I misplayed when I thoughtsiezed turn 2, saw 2x path, snapcaster, and Elspeth Sun's Champion and 3 lands. I had a great value hand and was thinking I'd swarm him, so took Snappy, but in retrospect I probably should've taken Elspeth (particularly as I'd sided out Pontiff). His next couple topdecks were Negate (for my coco) and Verdict, which totally shut me down, and Elspeth got him the win.
RD 6 - GW Elves (L 2-0) - Bad matchup, but g1 was a close race with him getting there on t4 after I had a good t3 coco, but useless t4 coco. G2 I thoughtseize away his Craterhoof (guy only had 3 Ezuri's, so used one Craterhoof), so all he had was Archdruid on board, dorks in hand, but topdecked a coco that found Ezuri for the t4 win. As I well know, sometime Coco is the total bomb (... and of course, sometimes it just sucks - lol). Very good local player, won the previous open that this store ran with GW Elves (200+ people I believe).
RD 7 - UR Delver (W 2-0) - with us both out of prize contention after rd 6 losses, my opponent seemed kinda bummed-out and he didn't play well. He missed quite a few triggers over the course of the match, which, coupled with my good draw G1 got me there (G2 I flooded and we played in top-deck mode for quite a while).
RD 8 - UG Infect (W 2-1) - G1 opponent had me dead if he topdecked pump spells after T4, but didn't and after having fun with Seer/Redcap/Townshipping to keep killing his 1/1 dudes, I finally got Melira in play. G2 I kept a slower, only marginally interactive hand (bad choice) and he got there after using 2 Dismembers on my potentially blocking creaures. G3 I nut drew vs. him (Melira, Skite, Path, Chord + 3 lands) so just played a little carefully around his possible outs and got there pretty easily.
3 Forest
1 Plains
2 Gavony Township
1 Godless Shrine
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Razorverge Thicket
Non-Creature Spells
4 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Eternal Witness
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Viscera Seer
2 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
2 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
2 Spellskite
1 Murderous Redcap
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Wall of Roots
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Voice of Resurgence
2 Path to Exile
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Sin Collector
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Thoughtseize
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
During the tournament, the losses to Lantern and UW control both felt like unlucky ones to me (and maybe they were), but I think it may also be a function of Abzan Coco now being on people's radar as one of the decks-to-beat; almost all my opponents had specifically-targeted hate coming in from their board.
The 2nd Fiend Hunter in the SB was useless - it was a last minute addition for Eldrazi, and in both Eldrazi matchups when I came to actually sideboarding I felt I didn't want to bring it in (too much other useful stuff to keep/bring in). Poor preparation on that one on my part - I basically played with a 14 card SB.
Linvala sat in the board all day until the Elves matchup. Trouble is, she may be too slow even there. :-( Probably won't use her again.
Path and Decay were both great when I brought them in.
Not sure about Thoughtseize - chose that over Tidehollow Sculler because of Eldrazi, but it still just feels awkward in the deck (though to be fair I didn't play any hardcore combo decks outside of Infect and perhaps shouldn't have sided it against UW control or Elves).
Rec Sage was great vs. the sideboard hate - almost outright won me a game vs. UW eldrazi's RIP. I really like the 2nd enchant/artifact creature-based-hate from the board.
Really wish I had some number of Horizon Canopies instead of Thickets - flooded a couple times and that could've mitigated the flood somewhat. Rarely would the 1-3 dmg I would've taken have mattered. I think this one matters more than Verdant Catacombs - I've found it seldom matters that I have Wooded Foothills instead.
Voices mainboard were very hit-and-miss - either an all-star, or my first card sided out. The deck already has a lot of swingy-ness to it, so I wish there was something more consistent for this slot at cmc 2.
The more I play this deck, the more I feel like there's quite a few flex spots - spots that the best md or sb cards maybe haven't been printed/discovered yet. Probably gonna take a break from the deck for now, if for no other reason than I just need a change - been going for 8 or 9 months now, longest I've ever been on a deck for. I'll probably come back to it, since I think it's my favorite deck that I've ever played (so many lines, so many cool things you can do, and so powerful!)
Also, I only listed the relevant cards to hit for our deck. The comment claiming that I "don't need to explain what it does by listing everything" only seems to imply that you don't recognise the list is partial, which leads me to believe you must not play modern very much competitively. The comprehensive list is much longer.
Anyway, this thread sure has gotten pretty toxic lately. Sure, I can understand not wanting to have it in your own 75x, but basically saying that everyone else is an idiot is not exactly a constructive discussion.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
In the matches you bring it in (assuming you draw it) you are mostly able to hit both the hate they bring in OR a creature/PW/etc, are able to re-buy it with E-witness and don't have to use a chord to get your rec sage/qasali so it definitely has its up sides.
Comparing it to Path to exile, Path is definitely the first pick and I'd go with 3/4 Paths before including Decays in the SB.
Decay does sometimes trump Path when dealing with creatures, especially in the early stages. You don't want to ramp your opponent when killing his turn 2 Dark Confidant. You can kill mana dorks if you notice your opponent is short on lands, you hit any permanent from Merfolk except the MoW. Against Bogles Decay is a complete all star hitting their auras and suppression field/RiP/gaddock teeg where as path is nearly unusable and chording for sage/qasali may already be shut off by gaddock. In a large tournament I guarantee you that there will be situations where the versatillity of Decay comes in handy, or where you'd just wish you would have access to more creature removal than just the 3/4 paths.
Of course if you are counting on having access to X chords the ideal is to chord for rec sage/answer then chord for the missing combo piece with a spellskite chord back up but that just doesn't happen much, having an answer which doesn't rely on using up a Chord is always nice imo.
I've been using this deck for a while now and for this current creature heavy meta I like a 4 path/2 decay split, this is bound to change soon so there is honestly no real point in having such a fervorous discussion about this as I am pretty sure that we'll soon be talking about including Fulminators in the SB again to "beat" tron/scapeshift/control etc.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Why are you disappointed? I can see how people are phrasing their language poorly, but we are providing both sides of the arguments here in case somebody misses them.
Any reason to not play Horizon Canopy?
It's basically about looking at your meta though--there're blood moon effects, paths, ghost quarters and burn around you'll want to keep the swamp.
I know everyone says burn is nearly a bye but that's not been my experience. It can be a close matchup and there has been at least one time where I needed to fetch black and cast a viscera seer to win but was at 2 life
Anyway take that for what it's worth - I would probably play a 3rd forest before playing another razorverge thicket though. I am really iffy on thicket in general and have had it punish me several times.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Creatures (30):
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Kitchen Finks
3x Noble Hierarch
3x Viscera Seer
3x Spellskite
3x Eternal Witness
2x Voice of resurgence
2x Wall of Roots
2x Anafenza Tree Kin Spirit
2x Melira Sylvok Outcast
1x Murderous Redcaps
1x Fiend Hunter
Spells (8):
4x Collected Company
4x Chord of Calling
Lands (22):
4x Windswept Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Horizon Canopy
2x Overgrown tomb
2x Razorverge Thicket
2x Forest
2x Gavony Township
1x Temple Garden
1x Marsh Flats
1x Godless Shrine
1x Plains
1x Swamp
SB (15):
2x Path to exile
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Quasali Pride-Mage
1x Intrepid Hero
1x Big Game Hunter
1x Sin Collector
1x Burrenton Forge Tender
1x Orzhov Pontiff
1x Archangel of Thune
1x Spike Feeder
1x Kataki War's wage
1x Worship
So in the end I went 1-3-1. I lost twice to gr tron, once to infect when I had no spellskite draw luck (despite running three main board), split with another Abzan company deck (which I was happy about because he was an experienced player and gave me tips after) and won against UW control. I'm happy with this for my first tourney but I was surprised that about 21% of the field was GR tron and that the two I played ran torpor orb side, which added insult to injury. I knew going in the match-up was bad and that these were experienced players (one having a totally foiled out deck). I managed to combo off once only to get swept and Ulamoged before the recaps could show up. So my thought is this. If I had had better luck (and I could have made mistakes I am not a great player with the deck yet) I should have probably beat infect. This deck seems like it should be strong to pretty much the entire format except tron. I'm wondering if anyone has any tips or deck edits for beating tron or if you are pretty much screwed going into the match-up. Things I learned today:
1.) 1x Skite Main is fine (maybe don't even need one main), but multiples don't seem worth it since combo pieces are redundant. Definitely came into a lot of situations where skite was all I had and I would have been happier with almost any other card in the deck.
2.) Voice of Resurgence doesn't seem very good in the deck currently. I felt like 2 other main-deck silver bullets or the back up main combo would do much better.
3.) I should run more tron counters even in main since I don't think a couple would really hurt the deck and the matchup is so bad and not too many other decks would dominate abzan company (especially if I was a cagey vet).
4.) I always wanted more removal and big game hunter and intrepid hero seem great against eldrazi (although surprisingly no one ran them at this tourney) but cant remove meaningful threats like Ulamog
5.) Worship seems like it would be good against eldrazi or storm, but I didn't see those decks.
Conclusions, I built the deck with the advice of a friend, but I feel like the meta is different then I was expecting. Here is what I was considering running in the next tourney (I got the tourney bug now):
Creatures (30):
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Kitchen Finks
3x Eternal Witness
3x Noble Hierarch
3x Viscera Seer
2x Wall of Roots
2x Anafenza Tree Kin Spirit
2x Melira Sylvok Outcast
1x Archangel of Thune
1x Spike Feeder
1x Aven Mindscensor
1x Murderous Redcaps
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Quasali Pride-Mage
1x Fiend Hunter
Spells (8):
4x Collected Company
4x Chord of Calling
Lands (22):
4x Windswept Heath
2x Horizon Canopy
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
4x Overgrown Tomb
2x Temple Garden
3x Gavony Township
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Swamp
SB (15):
3x Path to exile
3x Fulminator Mage
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Spellskite
1x Big Game Hunter
1x Sin Collector
1x Burrenton Forge Tender
1x Orzhov Pontiff
1x Phyrexian Revoker
Any seasoned advice is appreciated. I was also considering Liliana heretical healer since she can dodge removal, but still not sure. The good news is that I love the deck and will be maining it so I have all the time in the world to come up with different strats
P.S. Screw you tron!
For the record, Abrupt Decay was great the first time I drew it, and more than fine the second time.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Tron is rough! I've been doing a lot of thinking about it and I almost wonder if having 2 more redcaps in the sideboard might be the best way of fixing that match. Sometimes you just want to natural draw the bastard.
I had some luck with the crumble/stomping ground route but it seemed to really compromise the sideboard (and mana).
(and then it started getting warping wailed, my God is that annoying)
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I guess I could see the value in an extra Redcap, but I think it would be wasted sideboard space. Crumble to Dust is interesting, but again, requiring a fourth color and extra land in the board is rough. Fulminator seems like it would be fine at at least buying a turn or two, but unfortunately I cut my copy for a Linvala today. And obviously, you still only want maybe 2 copies of Fulminator before it starts getting clunky, and it doesn't do enough to swing the matchup.
I'm not that worried about Tron though. There's a good chance Eye of Ugin is the card they ban from Eldrazi, and if that's the case, Tron will take a pretty good size hit and won't be quite as popular. At that point though, I will make a more concerted effort to defeat them if they remain a strong pillar. At the moment, I think I'd just be happy with some better draws next time.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Not sure about Summoner's Pact, as they will rarely have GG to pay for it the next turn, and it only finds green creatures. I think they will just have to lose some inevitability and play more copies of stuff like Ulamog if they really want to draw it. Losing Eye is huge for them, as it's a land that takes up only 1 slot and gets found with all their tutors. They probably can't do much to replace it, but that's kind of the point. Tron crushes a lot of decks in the early game, and then has this redundancy in the late game too, which is pretty powerful. I don't think it's busted or anything, but I do think WOTC will probably look to keep that style of deck in check after the Eldrazi Winter. And Tron will be fine without Eye, just not quite as resilient against other long game decks.
So Tron will probably still be a problem for us post-bans, depending on how popular it remains. Eye of Ugin isn't really our problem, as we've generally lost or won by the time that card comes online. There isn't much we can do to shore up the matchup without overdosing on Sideboard cards. Liliana maindeck seems interesting and worth trying, but she definitely pulls us away from the combo a bit, which I still think is the best way to beat Tron. Going grindy is just asking to draw out the game longer which won't end well for us generally. Still, she can rebuy old combo pieces if they haven't been exiled, and in a grindier meta she probably is worth a 2-of or so for other matchups like Jund and Grixis.
If Tron is our only bad matchup, I'm not too worried about it at the moment. I still need to optimize my sideboard plan against them and get some more testing in, but as always with that deck I generally just hope to outplay or outdraw them and take my losses when that doesn't happen. Everything else is close to 50/50 or a positive matchup for us, so I think we're in good shape.
I'll be testing a lot more next month once my soccer night switches off of the Modern night at the LGS. Also, SOI is going to be a great set looks like, and I have a hunch it will effect Modern in a lot of (hopefully) good ways.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Yeah, I agree that anyone saying burn is a bye (myself included) is an oversimplification. It's a very favorable matchup, but it still takes tight play as the individual games are almost always close. My match win vs burn (fnm + tourney) is probably 85% win, but game win percentage is like 70% - it's just really tough for them to win two outta three, just as it is for us to beat Tron two outta three with the matchup being unfavorable. My experience with both is the underdog has to twice nut draw with the other player drawing only decently, or the favorite draw really badly twice, or a combination of those two.
If burn is a struggle, or is very popular in your meta, you can always use more sb slots than just bft to help. Another thing to ask is if you're siding out combo pieces - I'd suggest not doing that as even the threat of the combo (from having one piece on board) makes the burn player usually play cautiously. Or if they just tap out and go for it (as I think they probably should), you have a higher percentage of getting uncontested wins.
ABZAN COMPANY
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Eternal Witness
1 Fiend Hunter
4 Kitchen Finks
1 Murderous Redcap
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Viscera Seer
2 Wall of Roots
2 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
2 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Spike Feeder
1 Archangel of Thune
1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Gavony Township
1 Godless Shrine
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Horizon canopy
2 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
1 Dauntless Escort
1 Linvala
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Intrepid Hero
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
2 voice of resurgence
3 Path to Exile
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Phyrexian revoker
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Stomping Ground IS the extra land, that's the point. And the problem. You are taking up valuable SB space just to cast a 1-of. Siding into it makes your deck clunkier, and you must find the ground or a bird to cast crumble, Both of which are vulnerable to removal (GQ hits your ground if they sniff out your shenanigans, which they should). It's an option in extreme circumstances but I don't love the idea. Even if you do exile their lands, they can still stabilize and interact and eventually drop wurm, karn, or Ugin for the deathknell.
Ugin seems like a pretty logical ban to me. It's 50/50 with temple for hitting eldrazi , but taking away the lategame ridiculousness from both decks seems like a good way to kill two birds with one stone. I could be wrong, but it's essentially flip a coin for which one they ban. Either way though, Tron is still bad for us.
@gkourou, I assume fiend hunter stays, at least in the board. It's not good against bolt decks, but it's still an important tutor target for low interaction creature decks and opposing hate bears. Voice probably moves to the maindeck if Grixis and Jund return to the limelight, which I assume they will.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB