This super vicious and fun deck got 4-0 at a Daily the other day. In essence, it's a suicidal and greedy damage-based Infect list. It aims to either win before turn 4 or hurt the opponent so badly that they can't recover. To that end, it relies on fast creatures and extremely cost-efficient pump spells, with a variety of synergies like Death's Shadow and phyrexian mana, Temur Battle Rage and Mutagenic Growth, Mishra's Bauble and Monastery Swiftspear/Become Immense, etc. It's a total blast to play and it tears through durdly decks.
I cut the Nacatls and Lynx's in favor of Guides and Weirds to smooth out the manabase. Lynx was awesome when it worked but with only 17 lands in the deck, you ran into trouble when you tried to attack twice with it. Nacatl and Lynx also put you in awkward situations where you needed too many different mana colors to make your big turn work. Switching to purely Jund colors helped a lot. I also added Arbor as an out against Lilly, as a tutorable finisher in a pinch, and as another turn 1 creature play if you don't have Guide/MS.
I'd been working on a similar list that used Become Immense and Temur Battle Rage, but it was in a Small Zoo (Gruul Zoo) shell and not a suicidal, Death's Shadow based one. I actually like the Shadow one better because against Junk and Twin you really need to go big or go home.
Why is this deck better than Infect? Welp, I'm really not sure it is... but if I had to give some justifications it would be these. First, although Infect just needs to count to 10 instead of 20, your dudes hit so hard that you are basically winning as fast as Infect is; most decks are basically starting at 15-17 anyway. Second, this burn route lets you maindeck Bolt, which is something Infect can't do. Finally, Battle Rage totally invalidates chump blockers, which is an issue that Infect can have if Agent isn't active. Not really interested in debating the merits of playing a tier 5 suicide strategy over a tier 1 powerhouse, so yeah, those are kind of weak.
Anyway, the deck is a lot of fun and I'd love to see where it can go from here. Thoughts and ideas? One thing I really want to do is get a replacement for the Weirds. They just don't hit hard enough and, unlike MS, don't have Haste to at least give them the edge of speed.
I think there's something here. I always loved the old Atog/Fatal Frenzy affinity lists. Maybe the Phyexian protection spell that's white? Gut Shot seems to fit better than bolt IMHO.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
why play postmortem lunge over spellskite? the last on can lose you a ton of life just as u want and is much better in many matchups (twin/affinity/bogles/burn...)
Whenever there's a hyper aggressive Zoo deck that places, there is always someone that follows closely behind with a similar list that includes Tarmogoyf. Today is no exception.
So essentially the 4 Lightning Bolt and 3 Monastery Swiftspear are being declared as flex spots. I don't like using any of the cantrips as interchangeable pieces because as daviusminimus says, the land count is very low, and all land drops are good. I am kind of surprised because I personally feel that Steppe Lynx is weaker than Monastery Swiftspear, but I can understand the change either way.
Jotun Grunt, Hooting Mandrills, and Loxodon Peacekeeper can be substituted in for Tasigurs and Tarmogoys from the list that posted today to save a bunch of money. In the original list from __matsugaan I dropped one fetch for Godless Shrine because there were so many situations (Swiftspear, Nacatl in hand) that I wanted to fetch Stomping Ground turn one.
I don't think that 7 Delve cards and Tarmogoyf make a lot of sense, but it's tough to argue with success. It is embarrassing to use the Become Immense, Temur Battle Rage combo on a Goyf and attack for 12, for example. I think incorporating a few 2 drops and/or Hooting Mandrills is smart, though.
Dropping Lightning Bolt surely makes sideboarding more difficult. I always dropped them for Thoughtseize or Nature's Claim, whichever was more relevant. I don't know how on earth he sideboards with that list.
There's a lot of room for mixing things around in the list. I would say that the core is
17 land (1 basic forest, lots of fetches)
4 Death's Shadow
4 Street Wraith
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Become Immense
4 Temur Battle Rage
and 15 cards that allow for some room to play. In various lists I've played with and against online, creatures include Putrid Leech, Jotun Grunt, Loxodon Peacekeeper, Steppe Lynx, Wild Nacatl, Gurmag Angler, and Legion Loyalist, and non-creature spells maindeck include Thoughtseize, Lightning Bolt, and Manamorphose.
Hi all, I spent 20 tickets on events over the weekend with this deck and did not fare very well.
Daily
Rd 1 - Vs. Burn
I managed to win this one despite losing game 1 to a misclick Sacred Foundry fetch instead of Stomping Ground. I held Wild Nacatl and Hooting Mandrills and couldn't cast them.
Game 2, I sided out 4 Probes, 4 Street Wraith for 4 Duress, 3 Phyrexian Unlife, 1 Winds of (whatever the new Fog is called) and won without seeing any sideboard cards. Instead, I combo'd off on turn 3.
Game 3, I played conservatively with my life total, and he got me down to 6 life while I had a Death's Shadow in play. He had 1 untapped fetch, so I played a Mutagenic Growth and Temur Battle Rage for the match.
Rd 2 - Loss to Little Kid Junk
I won game 1, but games two he just had too many blockers with Voice of Resurgence and Lingering Souls tokens. On top of that, his Path to Exile and Abrupt Decay removal are difficult to beat.
Rd 3 - Loss to 8-Rack
I hate this stupid deck. Well done buddy, you kept me from playing Magic. I won game 2 when I was on the play, but games 1 and three he was able to play Inquisition into double Raven's Crime into Ensnaring Bridge or Liliana.
So then I hopped in an 8-man and lost rd 1 against a Dimir mono removal brew. GG.
8-man again and made it to the finals.
Rd 1 - This was against proper Abzan, and I won game 1 before he was able to interact. He had a Scavenging Ooze out as the only spell he cast.
Game 2 - I side in 2 Faith's Shield, 2 Postmortem Lunge for 4 Mutagenic Growth and Dryad Arbor for Overgrown Tomb. He has infinite Path, Abrupt Decay, Liliana. He plays the latter and makes me sac, and when I don't topdeck a fetchland for Dryad Arbor or creature to have 2 creatures in play, I scoop.
Game 3 - This time I'm barely able to squeak by with Faith's Shield and Duress.
Rd 2 - Win vs. Bogles 2-0
Game 1 was easy. He had no interaction, and I didn't even care about his lifegain.
Game 2 was a long grinder, and he had a big blocker with First Strike and 2 Spirit Link, but I was able to keep him off Daybreak Coronet with Duress and Nature's Claim. He was going to gain 12 life from the blocker, and he was holding Nature's Claim, and he was at 6 life. Finally I am able to Become Immense, win, when I'm at 2 life and attack with 2 Death's Shadow, Hooting Mandrills, Steppe Lynx, and Wild Nacatl.
Rd 3 1-2 loss to Skred Red piloted by Osman Ozguney.
I can't hate myself for this loss. He's a great player.
Game 1 his removal is dead against Hooting Mandrills and Death's Shadow.
Game 2 he locks me out with Chalice of the Void
Game 3 I don't get the toughness 4 creatures, and he gets Blood Moon while I'm holding a Death's Shadow for many turns.
Then I won a 2-man against Dredge. I forget what happened here.
So usually I give myself 30 tickets for each deck before I move on to something else. I've converted 30 to 20 so far and am watching it bleed.
I want more Faith's Shield or Apostle's Blessing in the sideboard. The former is very relevant in the Burn matchup and helps give evasion and protection from Path to Exile and Abrupt Decay. The latter has synergy with Death's Shadow.
I also missed Manamorphose in the matchups that the opponent had a lot of removal because mana was awkward in the early turns. I was particularly hungry for Green on turn 3 and Mardu on turns 1-2.
I hate to be too reactive about this particular day of a small sample size in games, but here is what I think I would run moving forward:
I don't have the cards or the money to sink into this deck at the minute - so can't test it, but...
has anyone thought of going towards a blue build instead of white? I think U has some really good sideboard cards for us (spell pierce jumps to mind), and apostle's blessing still exists. The main benefit would be to switch out our fairly flimsy steppe lynx for delver of secrets. The evasion and potentially 2 toughness seems good to me. We could also go into thought scour + more delve cards, but then risk the rest in peace blow-out.
Drinkard - nice list, I like that quite a lot more than mine. Manamorphose definitely seems like a card worth having. Could you share how the burn match-up felt? I mean, I'm almost writing it off, is it better than that? What's your current sideboard look like (I know you've added cards, but I also know you had duress previously)! Is the maindeck forest worth having? I mean, it's good against path, but do you ever need more than 2 lands anyway? I haven't found I do very often!
Edit - do you ever hard cast street wraith? How is the manabase working for you? Do you ever get stuck on what to fetch? At present, I have 4 windswept heath that cannot fetch blood crypt, so I pick the crypt out first when possible. With the 6 shocks, each fetch will miss 1 of them. If you keep a 1-lander, don't you risk drawing the wrong fetch, and is it happening much? Just trying to work out the benefits of 6 shocks vs 4!
I thought the Burn match-up was hopeless and have only played it the one time I went 2-1 in a ticketed event. I lost game 1 to a misclick or possibly even buggy incident. The next two games felt very easy though. I feel like we're just above 50% on the draw because we're a turn 3 deck. They're best card is going to be Searing Blaze when they're on the play, so if they don't have it, you're favored. I was very surprised to win game 3, but I had sided out all of my cyclers that cost life, let shocks come into play tapped, and won with a Death's Shadow. So I feel like on the draw, we're depending on him. Interestingly, though, I never drew any sideboard cards (though I brought in 8).
The maindeck Forest isn't for Path value so much. I just can't justify siding Nature's Claim for Blood Moon without the Forest. Additionally, it's relevant against Burn, giving me Become Immense mana on turn 3-4. There are times where you don't want your life total to dip to a certain point or else they Burn you before combat damage.
I have hardcast Street Wraith once to keep pressure on the board in the face of Liliana. I forget whether that worked out well for me.
The mana is awkward honestly. All the fetches have to get forests though, for sideboard Dryad Arbor and the main Forest.
I justified the Duress in previous iterations of the deck because it was relevant in the Burn matchup and removed Path to Exile and Abrupt Decay, the two cards I care about. Since then, though, I went to Leyline of Sanctity for Burn, Liliana, Inquisition, and Thoughtseize, and I want hate against Amulet Bloom and decks that can conceivably race us with linear strategies like Infect and Affinity.
Drinkard - i'll come back and post more details later - but I've tested against amulet bloom a lot already, and it's actually favourable, as long as you have some thoughtseize or duress somewhere. I mean, they're not even key! You can just race it (i wrote about it somewhere on this thread). Don't dedicate slots to it, just beat it up! Death's Shadow really laughs at titan's, and that's their gameplan!
I get that. I just Duress'd into a hand full of lands and Asuza + Primeval Titan that I couldn't beat. It was unlikely, but now that I have other sideboard hate to combat Burn, I don't see a need to play anything other than Thoughtseize.
Right guys - I'm goldfishing this a lot, but won't get chance to test it for a while (probably until a PPTQ I'm going to, and I think I'm playing this deck)! So, I need some help...
Those playing the deck - how good is Hooting Mandrils in the main? Does it require you to run manamorphose? How is that card performing?! I quite like the feel of manamorphose, but I'm goldfishing - so it could be utterly pointless! Would a 2/2 split of bolt and thoughtseize make much sense, with the other copies in the board?
I'm really struggling to get any meaningful testing done. I would really appreciate some pointers, because I want to play it a decent sized event!
I've been playing this deck like it's going out of style. To be honest drinkard's list is very very solid. I initially thought discard would be good mainboard but honestly your Death's Shadow is the biggest creature at every stage in the game. The only thing you need to discard is direct hate or counter magic. I personally would rather have 4 more draw spells (manamorphose) in game 1 to help find a Death's Shadow.
With respect to your sideboarding, I haven't been playing thoughtseize (I would if I owned it) but I've essentially been doing direct swap for duress with manamorphose if they are running blue/counter. Generally been doing 3 phyrexian unlife for street wraith if it's an aggro matchup. I usually like to keep probe in my hand. In almost every matchup I'd rather know what's going to hit before it does so I can play around it but that might be a personal preference. That's the only conflicting differences I see from what I've been doing. I should note I'm running
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Nature's Claim
3 Phyrexian Unlife
4 Duress
3 Gut shot
1 Hooting Mandrils (definitely just a filler, will be swapping).
I by no means think my sideboard is superior, I think it needs a bit of an overhaul once I determine my bad matchups.
Now with regards to Hooting Mandrils. I think a 3 of mainboard is the perfect amount. The trample is relevant in anything that plays 1/1 tokens. However, most the time I find myself wishing for a bigger butt. Also I think 7 delve cards(4x become immense) is just too much. I'd say 1/3 games I can get 2 of them out. The other 2/3 I can only cast 1 of the 2 or 3 sitting in my hand. Don't get me wrong if you can cast a deleve creature on turn 1 that's incredibly hilarious but it won't be another few turns until you can become immense it. At least in my own testing. I think I want to run Tassigur over Hooting Mandrils and some number of Rancor over Become Immense (or maybe a 2/2 split) as it let's me trample over gofys and rhinos. I'd also much rather Rancor + Death's Shadow + Temur Battle rage as apposed to relying on Hooting Mandrils + Become Immense + Temur Battle Rage. I also think it helps Steppe Lynx at least stay relevant after turn 3. However I've still been meaning to test it. Become immense has definitely won it's fair share of games.
Hi Josh
100% agree, I was finding 7 delve to be too much too. It just feels better than a monestary swiftspear. I really didn't want to cut the become immense, because they do lead to blow-outs. Argh choices choices! At least if you have both in hand, you can cherry pick what you need, either the big 4/4 or the big pump spell. Not ideal, but still a thing.
Rancor seems ok, not stunning. In comparison, is a vines of vastwood just giving more power and utility?
The 3 Phyrexian Unlife in every agro match-up makes a lot of sense. I don't own those, so perhaps I'm wrong with my boarding.
Are 3 gut shot effective? I just find some creatures with toughness 2-4 that I want ot kill (like opposing nacatls, delvers, even ornithopters or goblin guides). I have a split as you can see, and think it might be a worth-while route to take. If you like doing yourself damage, there's always dismember to consider!
Yeah Rancor is no direct sub for become immense but it fills the roll of some of the delve cards. I agree with you in that you have utility but I hate staring at my opening hand on 3-4 delve cards. I think 1 in every game is good, two - in some matchups, three - dead card. I am not a big fan of Vines in this deck only because I usually run Duress in the side if they have paths and decays and what not. Or I have probe can can play around their removal.
I definitely think gut shot is effective. It helps us in 2 ways. 1st mana dorks can certainly help our opponents ramp into something we cannot deal with. 2nd the aggro matchups like affinity and infect. I understand it doesn't pick off everything but I'd much rather reject their creatures on my own terms. I think 3 if you're expecting dorks, might go up to 4 for infect / affinity. Don't think it's mainboardable and it's purpose isn't necessarily obvious until you play with it.
Also only because you mentioned it, I don't see the point of swiftspear. Great turn 1 play if you caress her and treat her right but most of the time I'm using my spells to look for something specific.
Identical mainboard to drinkard - variance in the fetches / shocks I have available to me but the number of fetches and shocks is the same.
But you said it exactly, the trade off I'm speaking of is explosiveness for consistency. Most of my turn 3 kills have not been with become immense anyway. The idea for dropping the pump is simply because of board presence. Theyre going to block your Death's Shadow, that extra 4 points each swing is important. Again I think I'd rather tassigar with rancor because of consistency. Haven't tested it yet so someone may tell me I'm wrong.
Lynx both sucks and is incredible at the same time. If you read any other post on this thread everyone is saying the same thing. We don't have enough land to feed her (although the drawing does help) but the 2-12 points of landfall damage she can provide are not to be disregarded. That being said I think it's OKAY. It helps us be explosive and needs to be properly taken care of when it's not to get the utility out of it.
I think Nacatl is a perfect fit. You can't reliably account for a DS double strike and trample winning he game. It helps put pressure it helps eat some premature removal for our better creatures. It gives you that extra damage you need when swinging with DS. It's arguably the best 1 drop in the format and we want to win earlier than later. We can play the mid game but that is probably out of our comfort zone.
I think this brings something different than infect. Infect is going to generally have 1 or 2 creatures they're going to keep pumping. Until they run out of gas and then bring in the nexus once they've eaten all your removal. I think we have more gas and potential to be more explosive than they are.
All that being said, I think we should drop some delve stuff in favor of gofy. We can get him to be huge! Don't own any, can't test it. But I really think he's a great fit.
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/274602#online
Attaway Josh! Glad to see the list did better for you in dailies than it did for me! I've won a couple 8-mans with this and gone 1-1 and 2-1 in some others (0-1 in one), but only 0-2 and 1-2 in the two daily attempts. My sideboard is, shall we say, experimental. I tried Nourishing Shoals for my burn hate, but I think that Leyline and Phyrexian Unlife are just better. I'm going to keep trying the Shoals to keep my turn 3 active.
What were your matches in the 3-1 event, if you remember them?
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/274602#online
Attaway Josh! Glad to see the list did better for you in dailies than it did for me! I've won a couple 8-mans with this and gone 1-1 and 2-1 in some others (0-1 in one), but only 0-2 and 1-2 in the two daily attempts. My sideboard is, shall we say, experimental. I tried Nourishing Shoals for my burn hate, but I think that Leyline and Phyrexian Unlife are just better. I'm going to keep trying the Shoals to keep my turn 3 active.
What were your matches in the 3-1 event, if you remember them?
Funny that the list I actually ran contradicted everything I said in my above 4 posts. Just put in the Become Immense. The incidental value they provide when you have a full graveyard is much better than trample from Rancor. Just got to mull properly with them that's all.
I actually played 2 dailies this weekend. Went 3-1, and 2-2.
The 3-1 I played 2 Makeshift in round 1 and round 3 and honestly just played the race game. Didn't interact and was simply faster than them. Bunch of turn 3 kills. I sided in Duress but that might have been a mistake. I don't remember round 2 and that's probably because he didn't get the chance to play cards against me:P.
Round 4 was burn - a matchup I wish I had more practice against with this deck. Played conservatively. Misplayed in game 1 which cost me the game, won game 2, and needed 1 more health in game 3 - you know burn type stuff. This matchup really makes me think Leyline would be better than Phyrexian. Phyrexian is definitely more diverse but surviving until turn 3 is tough against burn. Game 3 I played my Phyrexian Unlife a turn too late. I didn't think ahead long enough and was playing my deck the way I would against anyone else, not against burn specifically. My own fault here considering I had 2 Death Shadow's on board.
The 2-2 daily I played was totally my own fault. I remember this one a little better because it was last night. I had every opportunity to not drop a round but was a bit tired and it really messed with me.
Round 1 was against Bloom Titan. He started the game 10 minutes late so he was a bit rushed in play and maybe that's why I won. Game 1 I had an explosive Become Immense Temur Battle rage before he could combo off. Game 2 I Duress'd his Summer Bloom, Destructive Revelry to his Amulet and then the game became a total grind fest. He kept getting those Sap tokens of Khalni Garden and always had something to block with. Eventually got 2 Titans out and was able to swing through. Game 3 he was on a short clock and I was just too explosive and not sure if he gave up or just didn't have the hand he needed but the game finished with him having 2 minutes left.
Round 2 was against Twin. Game 1 he got to 3 mana, if he had the combo in hand he had the chance to use it but I guess I lucked out. Game 2 was another turn 3 kill. Pretty decisive victory. Didn't draw any hate but didn't need it.
Round 3 was against U Tron. Game 1 all his lands on time but I still was able to break through before he could do anything. Game 2 was grindddddddy. He had oblivion stones, and I was able to clear them on time before he could do anything. I probed his hand and (forgive me for not remembering the name) but it was 'destroy all non colorless creatures'. I overlooked the card, thought nothing of it, played a second Death's Shadow and as soon as I tapped the mana, I realized it was too late. Game 3, I probed his hand and didn't see anything but counter spells. After he finished countering everything I had, he stabilized, got his lands and oblivion stones, and beat me to the ground with a pair of Wurmcoils.
Round 4 was against affinity. Game 1 I lost, but in a top deck war. He played his sub optimal hand and it just became who could draw better cards. Think it went to like turn 8 or 9. Welding Jar was his MVP. Turn 2, I think I just had a better hand than him and was on play and could just plow through. Game 3 his Welding Jar made things a little tricky for me. I had 2 Nature Claim's and 1 Destructive Revelry in that matchup and I just didn't make effective plays with it. I cleared the board but at the end of the day he used Modular on Etched Champion and swung in for 7. I had 2 Death Shadow's on board, 1 in hand.
Moral of the story: I need to work on my affinity and burn matchups. They're the toughest for me, but most fun. Don't get to play a lot of them in the Tournament Practice Queue though. Also I need to really REALLY slow down my play. Got a little too hasty in the second daily. I really think I could have gone at least 3-1 again.
With regards to Leyline vs Phyrexian, I think Phyrexian slows us down but pretty much forfeiting turn 3 to survive turn 4 and 5. It's good, but I don't think it's the best solution. I'm willing to mull down to Leyline with all the card draw we run in this deck to totally shut off a burn player. Our creatures are almost always bigger and if they have hate to deal with it, it's advantageous for us because we can build our board state properly. I haven't tested it but that's my argument for the card. The only real con I can think of is versatility. Phyrexian Unlife is good in a lot of other matchups too. But with the amount of burn present online, I think I would forfeit 4 sideboard slots to it.
What is the point of Mishra's Bauble in these lists? It's an awful card and has no place in the deck. It'd be better to replace it with something useful, like Bolt or Thoughtseize.
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"I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame."
—Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer
That, and against discard you cantrip safely by activating it on their turn. If they don't have a fetch, then you look at their card on their upkeep for more information, or you can at the end of their turn.
Mishra's Bauble is there for information, cycling a card, and also to put a card in your graveyard for free. This also helps your delve spells and creatures.
Are we settled on manamorphose, some bolts or some thoughtseize? whats in the main at hte minute? It's a slot i'm mulling over, but i dont have much time to test before i rock up to a tournament! Any thoughts on which is best?
I'm totally sold on manamorphose. Just got to be careful with the mana colors you select. I'll directly side it out for Thoughtsieze if my opponent has any type of counters in their deck.
Don't really care much for bolt either. The 3 damage is hardly relevant. Either your creature is bigger than 3 so it's not great removal so you'll just double strike trample over it or make an efficient trade or you use it as a combat trick with Death Shadow to bolt yourself. Often times my opponent dies with well below 0 life so I don't really use it as burn either. Feels like a dead card when I play with it.
This super vicious and fun deck got 4-0 at a Daily the other day. In essence, it's a suicidal and greedy damage-based Infect list. It aims to either win before turn 4 or hurt the opponent so badly that they can't recover. To that end, it relies on fast creatures and extremely cost-efficient pump spells, with a variety of synergies like Death's Shadow and phyrexian mana, Temur Battle Rage and Mutagenic Growth, Mishra's Bauble and Monastery Swiftspear/Become Immense, etc. It's a total blast to play and it tears through durdly decks.
Here's my list. The daily list is below mine:
2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Stomping Ground
1 Dryad Arbor
Dudes: 19
4 Death's Shadow
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Street Wraith
4 Blistercoil Weird
4 Goblin Guide
4 Become Immense
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Temur Battle Rage
3 Hooting Mandrills
4 Thoughtseize
2 Postmortem Lunge
4 Vault Skirge
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Arid Mesa
1 Blood Crypt
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple Garden
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
Dudes: 19
4 Death's Shadow
3 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Street Wraith
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Become Immense
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Temur Battle Rage
4 Hooting Mandrills
4 Nature's Claim
3 Phyrexian Unlife
4 Thoughtseize
I cut the Nacatls and Lynx's in favor of Guides and Weirds to smooth out the manabase. Lynx was awesome when it worked but with only 17 lands in the deck, you ran into trouble when you tried to attack twice with it. Nacatl and Lynx also put you in awkward situations where you needed too many different mana colors to make your big turn work. Switching to purely Jund colors helped a lot. I also added Arbor as an out against Lilly, as a tutorable finisher in a pinch, and as another turn 1 creature play if you don't have Guide/MS.
I'd been working on a similar list that used Become Immense and Temur Battle Rage, but it was in a Small Zoo (Gruul Zoo) shell and not a suicidal, Death's Shadow based one. I actually like the Shadow one better because against Junk and Twin you really need to go big or go home.
Why is this deck better than Infect? Welp, I'm really not sure it is... but if I had to give some justifications it would be these. First, although Infect just needs to count to 10 instead of 20, your dudes hit so hard that you are basically winning as fast as Infect is; most decks are basically starting at 15-17 anyway. Second, this burn route lets you maindeck Bolt, which is something Infect can't do. Finally, Battle Rage totally invalidates chump blockers, which is an issue that Infect can have if Agent isn't active. Not really interested in debating the merits of playing a tier 5 suicide strategy over a tier 1 powerhouse, so yeah, those are kind of weak.
Anyway, the deck is a lot of fun and I'd love to see where it can go from here. Thoughts and ideas? One thing I really want to do is get a replacement for the Weirds. They just don't hit hard enough and, unlike MS, don't have Haste to at least give them the edge of speed.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30302_Daily-Digest-Immense-Rage.html
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/271991#online
So essentially the 4 Lightning Bolt and 3 Monastery Swiftspear are being declared as flex spots. I don't like using any of the cantrips as interchangeable pieces because as daviusminimus says, the land count is very low, and all land drops are good. I am kind of surprised because I personally feel that Steppe Lynx is weaker than Monastery Swiftspear, but I can understand the change either way.
Jotun Grunt, Hooting Mandrills, and Loxodon Peacekeeper can be substituted in for Tasigurs and Tarmogoys from the list that posted today to save a bunch of money. In the original list from __matsugaan I dropped one fetch for Godless Shrine because there were so many situations (Swiftspear, Nacatl in hand) that I wanted to fetch Stomping Ground turn one.
Dropping Lightning Bolt surely makes sideboarding more difficult. I always dropped them for Thoughtseize or Nature's Claim, whichever was more relevant. I don't know how on earth he sideboards with that list.
There's a lot of room for mixing things around in the list. I would say that the core is
17 land (1 basic forest, lots of fetches)
4 Death's Shadow
4 Street Wraith
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Become Immense
4 Temur Battle Rage
and 15 cards that allow for some room to play. In various lists I've played with and against online, creatures include Putrid Leech, Jotun Grunt, Loxodon Peacekeeper, Steppe Lynx, Wild Nacatl, Gurmag Angler, and Legion Loyalist, and non-creature spells maindeck include Thoughtseize, Lightning Bolt, and Manamorphose.
Daily
Rd 1 - Vs. Burn
I managed to win this one despite losing game 1 to a misclick Sacred Foundry fetch instead of Stomping Ground. I held Wild Nacatl and Hooting Mandrills and couldn't cast them.
Game 2, I sided out 4 Probes, 4 Street Wraith for 4 Duress, 3 Phyrexian Unlife, 1 Winds of (whatever the new Fog is called) and won without seeing any sideboard cards. Instead, I combo'd off on turn 3.
Game 3, I played conservatively with my life total, and he got me down to 6 life while I had a Death's Shadow in play. He had 1 untapped fetch, so I played a Mutagenic Growth and Temur Battle Rage for the match.
Rd 2 - Loss to Little Kid Junk
I won game 1, but games two he just had too many blockers with Voice of Resurgence and Lingering Souls tokens. On top of that, his Path to Exile and Abrupt Decay removal are difficult to beat.
Rd 3 - Loss to 8-Rack
I hate this stupid deck. Well done buddy, you kept me from playing Magic. I won game 2 when I was on the play, but games 1 and three he was able to play Inquisition into double Raven's Crime into Ensnaring Bridge or Liliana.
So then I hopped in an 8-man and lost rd 1 against a Dimir mono removal brew. GG.
8-man again and made it to the finals.
Rd 1 - This was against proper Abzan, and I won game 1 before he was able to interact. He had a Scavenging Ooze out as the only spell he cast.
Game 2 - I side in 2 Faith's Shield, 2 Postmortem Lunge for 4 Mutagenic Growth and Dryad Arbor for Overgrown Tomb. He has infinite Path, Abrupt Decay, Liliana. He plays the latter and makes me sac, and when I don't topdeck a fetchland for Dryad Arbor or creature to have 2 creatures in play, I scoop.
Game 3 - This time I'm barely able to squeak by with Faith's Shield and Duress.
Rd 2 - Win vs. Bogles 2-0
Game 1 was easy. He had no interaction, and I didn't even care about his lifegain.
Game 2 was a long grinder, and he had a big blocker with First Strike and 2 Spirit Link, but I was able to keep him off Daybreak Coronet with Duress and Nature's Claim. He was going to gain 12 life from the blocker, and he was holding Nature's Claim, and he was at 6 life. Finally I am able to Become Immense, win, when I'm at 2 life and attack with 2 Death's Shadow, Hooting Mandrills, Steppe Lynx, and Wild Nacatl.
Rd 3 1-2 loss to Skred Red piloted by Osman Ozguney.
I can't hate myself for this loss. He's a great player.
Game 1 his removal is dead against Hooting Mandrills and Death's Shadow.
Game 2 he locks me out with Chalice of the Void
Game 3 I don't get the toughness 4 creatures, and he gets Blood Moon while I'm holding a Death's Shadow for many turns.
Then I won a 2-man against Dredge. I forget what happened here.
So usually I give myself 30 tickets for each deck before I move on to something else. I've converted 30 to 20 so far and am watching it bleed.
I want more Faith's Shield or Apostle's Blessing in the sideboard. The former is very relevant in the Burn matchup and helps give evasion and protection from Path to Exile and Abrupt Decay. The latter has synergy with Death's Shadow.
I also missed Manamorphose in the matchups that the opponent had a lot of removal because mana was awkward in the early turns. I was particularly hungry for Green on turn 3 and Mardu on turns 1-2.
I hate to be too reactive about this particular day of a small sample size in games, but here is what I think I would run moving forward:
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
3 Hooting Mandrills
4 Death's Shadow
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Street Wraith
Other Spells
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Manamorphose
4 Become Immense
4 Temur Battle Rage
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Faith's Shield
4 Thoughtseize
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Nature's Claim
1 Dryad Arbor
I thought the Burn match-up was hopeless and have only played it the one time I went 2-1 in a ticketed event. I lost game 1 to a misclick or possibly even buggy incident. The next two games felt very easy though. I feel like we're just above 50% on the draw because we're a turn 3 deck. They're best card is going to be Searing Blaze when they're on the play, so if they don't have it, you're favored. I was very surprised to win game 3, but I had sided out all of my cyclers that cost life, let shocks come into play tapped, and won with a Death's Shadow. So I feel like on the draw, we're depending on him. Interestingly, though, I never drew any sideboard cards (though I brought in 8).
The maindeck Forest isn't for Path value so much. I just can't justify siding Nature's Claim for Blood Moon without the Forest. Additionally, it's relevant against Burn, giving me Become Immense mana on turn 3-4. There are times where you don't want your life total to dip to a certain point or else they Burn you before combat damage.
I have hardcast Street Wraith once to keep pressure on the board in the face of Liliana. I forget whether that worked out well for me.
The mana is awkward honestly. All the fetches have to get forests though, for sideboard Dryad Arbor and the main Forest.
I justified the Duress in previous iterations of the deck because it was relevant in the Burn matchup and removed Path to Exile and Abrupt Decay, the two cards I care about. Since then, though, I went to Leyline of Sanctity for Burn, Liliana, Inquisition, and Thoughtseize, and I want hate against Amulet Bloom and decks that can conceivably race us with linear strategies like Infect and Affinity.
I've been playing this deck like it's going out of style. To be honest drinkard's list is very very solid. I initially thought discard would be good mainboard but honestly your Death's Shadow is the biggest creature at every stage in the game. The only thing you need to discard is direct hate or counter magic. I personally would rather have 4 more draw spells (manamorphose) in game 1 to help find a Death's Shadow.
With respect to your sideboarding, I haven't been playing thoughtseize (I would if I owned it) but I've essentially been doing direct swap for duress with manamorphose if they are running blue/counter. Generally been doing 3 phyrexian unlife for street wraith if it's an aggro matchup. I usually like to keep probe in my hand. In almost every matchup I'd rather know what's going to hit before it does so I can play around it but that might be a personal preference. That's the only conflicting differences I see from what I've been doing. I should note I'm running
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Nature's Claim
3 Phyrexian Unlife
4 Duress
3 Gut shot
1 Hooting Mandrils (definitely just a filler, will be swapping).
I by no means think my sideboard is superior, I think it needs a bit of an overhaul once I determine my bad matchups.
Now with regards to Hooting Mandrils. I think a 3 of mainboard is the perfect amount. The trample is relevant in anything that plays 1/1 tokens. However, most the time I find myself wishing for a bigger butt. Also I think 7 delve cards(4x become immense) is just too much. I'd say 1/3 games I can get 2 of them out. The other 2/3 I can only cast 1 of the 2 or 3 sitting in my hand. Don't get me wrong if you can cast a deleve creature on turn 1 that's incredibly hilarious but it won't be another few turns until you can become immense it. At least in my own testing. I think I want to run Tassigur over Hooting Mandrils and some number of Rancor over Become Immense (or maybe a 2/2 split) as it let's me trample over gofys and rhinos. I'd also much rather Rancor + Death's Shadow + Temur Battle rage as apposed to relying on Hooting Mandrils + Become Immense + Temur Battle Rage. I also think it helps Steppe Lynx at least stay relevant after turn 3. However I've still been meaning to test it. Become immense has definitely won it's fair share of games.
Yeah Rancor is no direct sub for become immense but it fills the roll of some of the delve cards. I agree with you in that you have utility but I hate staring at my opening hand on 3-4 delve cards. I think 1 in every game is good, two - in some matchups, three - dead card. I am not a big fan of Vines in this deck only because I usually run Duress in the side if they have paths and decays and what not. Or I have probe can can play around their removal.
I definitely think gut shot is effective. It helps us in 2 ways. 1st mana dorks can certainly help our opponents ramp into something we cannot deal with. 2nd the aggro matchups like affinity and infect. I understand it doesn't pick off everything but I'd much rather reject their creatures on my own terms. I think 3 if you're expecting dorks, might go up to 4 for infect / affinity. Don't think it's mainboardable and it's purpose isn't necessarily obvious until you play with it.
Also only because you mentioned it, I don't see the point of swiftspear. Great turn 1 play if you caress her and treat her right but most of the time I'm using my spells to look for something specific.
But you said it exactly, the trade off I'm speaking of is explosiveness for consistency. Most of my turn 3 kills have not been with become immense anyway. The idea for dropping the pump is simply because of board presence. Theyre going to block your Death's Shadow, that extra 4 points each swing is important. Again I think I'd rather tassigar with rancor because of consistency. Haven't tested it yet so someone may tell me I'm wrong.
Lynx both sucks and is incredible at the same time. If you read any other post on this thread everyone is saying the same thing. We don't have enough land to feed her (although the drawing does help) but the 2-12 points of landfall damage she can provide are not to be disregarded. That being said I think it's OKAY. It helps us be explosive and needs to be properly taken care of when it's not to get the utility out of it.
I think Nacatl is a perfect fit. You can't reliably account for a DS double strike and trample winning he game. It helps put pressure it helps eat some premature removal for our better creatures. It gives you that extra damage you need when swinging with DS. It's arguably the best 1 drop in the format and we want to win earlier than later. We can play the mid game but that is probably out of our comfort zone.
I think this brings something different than infect. Infect is going to generally have 1 or 2 creatures they're going to keep pumping. Until they run out of gas and then bring in the nexus once they've eaten all your removal. I think we have more gas and potential to be more explosive than they are.
All that being said, I think we should drop some delve stuff in favor of gofy. We can get him to be huge! Don't own any, can't test it. But I really think he's a great fit.
4 Death's Shadow
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Street Wraith
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Spells (20)
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Become Immense
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Temur Battle Rage
4 Mishra's Bauble
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Godless Shrine
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Thoughtseize
3 Dismember
3 Phyrexian Unlife
2 Apostle's Blessing
2 Winds of Qal Sisma
1 Vines of Vastwood
Attaway Josh! Glad to see the list did better for you in dailies than it did for me! I've won a couple 8-mans with this and gone 1-1 and 2-1 in some others (0-1 in one), but only 0-2 and 1-2 in the two daily attempts. My sideboard is, shall we say, experimental. I tried Nourishing Shoals for my burn hate, but I think that Leyline and Phyrexian Unlife are just better. I'm going to keep trying the Shoals to keep my turn 3 active.
What were your matches in the 3-1 event, if you remember them?
Funny that the list I actually ran contradicted everything I said in my above 4 posts. Just put in the Become Immense. The incidental value they provide when you have a full graveyard is much better than trample from Rancor. Just got to mull properly with them that's all.
I actually played 2 dailies this weekend. Went 3-1, and 2-2.
The 3-1 I played 2 Makeshift in round 1 and round 3 and honestly just played the race game. Didn't interact and was simply faster than them. Bunch of turn 3 kills. I sided in Duress but that might have been a mistake. I don't remember round 2 and that's probably because he didn't get the chance to play cards against me:P.
Round 4 was burn - a matchup I wish I had more practice against with this deck. Played conservatively. Misplayed in game 1 which cost me the game, won game 2, and needed 1 more health in game 3 - you know burn type stuff. This matchup really makes me think Leyline would be better than Phyrexian. Phyrexian is definitely more diverse but surviving until turn 3 is tough against burn. Game 3 I played my Phyrexian Unlife a turn too late. I didn't think ahead long enough and was playing my deck the way I would against anyone else, not against burn specifically. My own fault here considering I had 2 Death Shadow's on board.
The 2-2 daily I played was totally my own fault. I remember this one a little better because it was last night. I had every opportunity to not drop a round but was a bit tired and it really messed with me.
Round 1 was against Bloom Titan. He started the game 10 minutes late so he was a bit rushed in play and maybe that's why I won. Game 1 I had an explosive Become Immense Temur Battle rage before he could combo off. Game 2 I Duress'd his Summer Bloom, Destructive Revelry to his Amulet and then the game became a total grind fest. He kept getting those Sap tokens of Khalni Garden and always had something to block with. Eventually got 2 Titans out and was able to swing through. Game 3 he was on a short clock and I was just too explosive and not sure if he gave up or just didn't have the hand he needed but the game finished with him having 2 minutes left.
Round 2 was against Twin. Game 1 he got to 3 mana, if he had the combo in hand he had the chance to use it but I guess I lucked out. Game 2 was another turn 3 kill. Pretty decisive victory. Didn't draw any hate but didn't need it.
Round 3 was against U Tron. Game 1 all his lands on time but I still was able to break through before he could do anything. Game 2 was grindddddddy. He had oblivion stones, and I was able to clear them on time before he could do anything. I probed his hand and (forgive me for not remembering the name) but it was 'destroy all non colorless creatures'. I overlooked the card, thought nothing of it, played a second Death's Shadow and as soon as I tapped the mana, I realized it was too late. Game 3, I probed his hand and didn't see anything but counter spells. After he finished countering everything I had, he stabilized, got his lands and oblivion stones, and beat me to the ground with a pair of Wurmcoils.
Round 4 was against affinity. Game 1 I lost, but in a top deck war. He played his sub optimal hand and it just became who could draw better cards. Think it went to like turn 8 or 9. Welding Jar was his MVP. Turn 2, I think I just had a better hand than him and was on play and could just plow through. Game 3 his Welding Jar made things a little tricky for me. I had 2 Nature Claim's and 1 Destructive Revelry in that matchup and I just didn't make effective plays with it. I cleared the board but at the end of the day he used Modular on Etched Champion and swung in for 7. I had 2 Death Shadow's on board, 1 in hand.
Moral of the story: I need to work on my affinity and burn matchups. They're the toughest for me, but most fun. Don't get to play a lot of them in the Tournament Practice Queue though. Also I need to really REALLY slow down my play. Got a little too hasty in the second daily. I really think I could have gone at least 3-1 again.
With regards to Leyline vs Phyrexian, I think Phyrexian slows us down but pretty much forfeiting turn 3 to survive turn 4 and 5. It's good, but I don't think it's the best solution. I'm willing to mull down to Leyline with all the card draw we run in this deck to totally shut off a burn player. Our creatures are almost always bigger and if they have hate to deal with it, it's advantageous for us because we can build our board state properly. I haven't tested it but that's my argument for the card. The only real con I can think of is versatility. Phyrexian Unlife is good in a lot of other matchups too. But with the amount of burn present online, I think I would forfeit 4 sideboard slots to it.
—Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer
3 Thoughtsieze
1 Gut shot
3 Faith's Shield
2 Nature Claim
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Phyrexian Unlife
2 Dismember
Doesn't feel complete though.
I'm totally sold on manamorphose. Just got to be careful with the mana colors you select. I'll directly side it out for Thoughtsieze if my opponent has any type of counters in their deck.
Don't really care much for bolt either. The 3 damage is hardly relevant. Either your creature is bigger than 3 so it's not great removal so you'll just double strike trample over it or make an efficient trade or you use it as a combat trick with Death Shadow to bolt yourself. Often times my opponent dies with well below 0 life so I don't really use it as burn either. Feels like a dead card when I play with it.
As for the main I'm currently running:
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Hooting Mandrills
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Become Immense
4 Manamorphose
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Temur Battle Rage
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
1 Blood Crypt
1 Forest
1 Godless Shrine
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden