It would likely replace sleight of hand. Storm would want it for sure, and it is basically an upgraded sleight. I would imagine if they are going to unban either ponder would be more likely since preordain is more what the combo decks want while ponder is more what a control deck wants. I would probably make the same swap for ponder as well, but cannot tell you for sure without a bunch of testing myself.
My apologies, the way I read your first comment I thought you had a stock list you were looking to swap a card out of. I would start with the finkel 75, swap preordain for sleight of hand, and work my way down the line into some more niche lists.
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My apologies, the way I read your first comment I thought you had a stock list you were looking to swap a card out of. I would start with the finkel 75, swap preordain for sleight of hand, and work my way down the line into some more niche lists.
Hey man so I reread the old article Finkel made a few years ago and read the new one you can find here.
Besides the transformational SB which I find interesting but do not like I am asking myself if Finkels decklist would like to use Preordain instead of Desperate Ravings as you get the same cards for less costs. You lose the flashback and the one card filling your GY, I know. But wouldn't the selection Preordain offers be much more efficient?
My spin on Finkels new list would look something like this:
/edit: Also if you want to contribute to the testing and are familiar with the deck we still need people testing the decks with us on xmage.
/edit2: Maybe I should add/swap the 4 Spirebluff Canals as he suggests at the end of the article.
Played with my list with Gifts and tuned to the meta. Finkel 75 is good, I'm still seeing this list posting results here and there, but I'm getting more and more comfortable with the following:
My friend is also playing classic Finkel Storm and he likes the stability given by Gifts and also the spicy part with 3 Grapeshot. I'm still not sure about 17 lands, but it feels smooth with 4 CMC cards in the main as well as Empty and Shatterstorm. I've played against Living End, Thing Ascension, Affinity (50-50 in the results) with great results. More to come!
I think that ravings and preordain fit a completely different slot. Sleight of hand and preordain both look at two cards, and then sleight you pick the best of the two. Preordain you pick only the best card (1 top, 1 bottom), random if they are both bad (2 bottom), or if you like both of them you aren't forced to ship one. Ravings is in a different slot. It is your grind against the control deck, not your selection engine. I haven't done much testing with his updated manabase, or the tempo sideboard yet, but am planning on doing some this weekend.
@TomCourtenay So this version of gifts basically just swaps the ravings for an extra grapeshot, extra land, and fun-of gifts? These three things seem like small enough changes I don't see how it would change that much. I will be trying the list. I am curious why you only have 3 tarn listed instead of 4. For the most part the three matchups mentioned I feel are positive to begin with, so I am curious how this list fares against jund, infect, and burn.
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been working on a stock list for testing sessions with Preordain.
How would UR Storm look with Preordain in it? I would like the most streamlined list you can provide just with the addition of Preordain (as in my opinion Storm would play it if it got unbanned)
Greetings
King
Why is this a question here, is there some plan for it being unbanned? I mean yeah, it'd be wicked helpful for us, but would also make Delver seriously strong as well as a couple other decks. It would be more utilized by far than ancestral visions. Would prefer seething song or something lol
The idea of the testing is to give a discussion about the unban material. The whole metagame thread is filled with arguments not based on anything. So we want to provide data to talk about.
One more thing, i wouldn't mind the list you posted first either, most people's first instinct is to replace ravings, but I feel it is important to have a red cantrips. It is possible with the right section early that becomes less important, but sometimes you have to start the combo without a manamorphose.
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The changes are small, but I'm also trying sometimes a 2 Grapeshot and 2 Gifts to have more tutors, but it doesn't seem to work very well (not as much as 3 Grapeshot and 1 Gifts). Burn is still Burn, so it's rough, but Infect gets better with more Grapeshot main and a tutor to find them as well as Jund : you can put in the graveyard Grapeshots to clear the board with flashback and use the remaining to kill the opponent. So it's slightly better.
I've tried something very spicy, 4 Gifts, and it's out of this world :
This version feels very grindy and has all the answers with a proper sideboard. It's really hard to pilot though, much more than Finkel's. Still debating between 4 Probe or 4 Sleight... However, the bad matchups get better with a Gifts sideboard and with ritual, you can find answers much more quickly. This one is definitely the best I've brewed since I picked the deck for a year now. It's a must-try!
I've been playing Thing Ascension for several months now and have recently tried Suicide Bloo. Didn't like the deck too much so I've decided to try Storm. One question, how is the 4x Madcap Experiment / 2x Platinum Emperion doing? When do you side them in and in which matchups?
Note: Looking to play Finkel's stock list, only adjusting the SB to make room for MadcapEmperion.
Burn is the major matchup that Emperion can help us, although I'm still a bit wary of it because of Destructive Revelry. But basically bring it in against any aggro matchup, it's good against Affinity, Death's Shadow Zoo, and Merfolk if you can ritual it out, especially considering they will most likely board out creature removal. It doesn't help at all against Infect though, so keep that in mind
Don't bring it in against any midrange stuff, it's way too easy to kill from Jund, Abzan, Grixis, and Death and Taxes types of decks, even if they board out a majority of their removal. Also would not bring it in against control or any Primeval Titan/Scapeshift deck, it's fairly easy for them to just kill the Emperion with Valakut triggers before hitting you
I was previously trying Platinum Angel in order to give some game against Infect, but it dies too easily in other matchups, so I'm probably going to move back to Emperion.
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Modern UR Storm URB Grixis Delver W Death and Taxes
Basically anything with Scalding Tarn
Thanks! What do you usually board out for them? Also, if youre expecting GY hate, do we board out pyro ascension?
True. From what ive experienced, bgx decks are really the bane of all my UR decks (thing ascension, suicide bloo and storm). T1 discard as well as creature removal for the TA and SB are really rough.
Game 1 Infect has max 1 Dismember and post SB usually tops out at 3. They likely side them all out vs Storm tho so Angel should work vs them. If we could spare the space to do 3 madcap, 2 Empirion and 2 angel we would have that covered. Also good vs Affinity as they can't poison kill you then either
Went 2-1 tonight. Not bad for first time playing the deck.
Round 1 vs RG Titan Breach - Win 2-0
G1: On the draw. Nothing special, I just comboed out a turn faster.
G2: Boarded in 3x Blood Moons and 1x Empty. Didn't draw the Blood Moons but won on turn 4 via grapeshot. Showed me his hand and he had 3x bolt and a summoners pact. Dont know why he didnt board out the bolts.
Round 2 vs a UR Control brew - Loss 0-2
This one is rough. He's playing Snapcasters, Torrential Gearhulk, Telling Time, a truckload of counters and 4x Thunderous Wrath.
G1: Felt hopeless here. Was on the play vut never got to play anything of note all the way to turn 7. He countered my ascensions, bolted my electromancers. Nothing. He miracle'd Wrath twice too.
G2: On the play, kept a one lander with 2 probes, 1 visions, ascension and two rituals. Got stuck on 1 land for 3-4 turns even with all the card draw. When i got the 2nd land, it was too late.
Round 3 vs BW Tokens
G1: He played T1 Thoughtseize, T2 Bitterblossom and T3 Liliana. Didnt matter, I comboed out t4.
G2: Boarded in 3x Blood Moon and 1x Empty. T3 he cast Lost Legacy naming Pyro Ascension. I got 3 cards out of the deal as i boarded out 1 ascension. I drew a land, a ritual and the singleton empty the warren. Next turn I cast Blood Moon to cut him off black mana. He passed then the following turn I stormed for 14 goblin tokens. Game was done after a couple of turns. Showed me his hand and saw the Orzhov card that gives -1/-1 to opponents creatures which couldve killed my goblins if it werent for my Blood Moon.
All in all the deck felt really smooth. Counter decks are just rough, so as discards. Didnt get the chance to use the Madcap Emperion sb though.
General rule of thumb is to take out Ravings against aggro because they're too slow, and Thought Scour against control because Ravings is better there. I'll usually cut an Ascension if I take out Scour because they are slightly worse without the Scours and you're already hedging on there being graveyard hate. Gitaxian Probe can also come out against damage based aggro (Burn, Affinity) because you want to conserve your life total as best you can in those matchups. However, be aware that if you want to bring in Empty, not having Probes in the deck can make them slightly worse. If you were bringing in 4 Madcap and 2 Emperion, a reasonable SB would be -3 Ravings, -3 Gitaxian Probe. And then you could cut the last Probe and maybe a Scour and an Ascension for Blood moons if you wanted. Again, that's just one example, there's alot of ways you could justify doing it.
The best advice that I could give for fighting control is to hit your land drops. If I know I'm playing against a control player, I try to cantrip into every land drop possible until they present a clock, and then get into a position for one big turn. The thing with control is they generally will not have more than 2-3 counters in their hand at once. When you have an upwards of 6 or 7 mana available before you even start casting anything, that makes it incredibly hard for them to decide what to counter, as well as helping mitigate Mana Leak's efficiency. All of those extra land drops makes for more lines that you can take through several counterspells and win. A very patient and deliberate storm player actually has some serious game against control.
And hold your last Electromancer until you combo. We've said it alot on here, but think of it like a ritual and not a creature and you'll do much better!
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Modern UR Storm URB Grixis Delver W Death and Taxes
Basically anything with Scalding Tarn
Thanks for the SB and control matchup tips. Never really thought about it especially the hitting the land drops plan. Will definitely keep that in mind the next time i go up against a counter heavy deck.
Lots of pros talking about the banning of gitaxian due to infect and suicide zoo. If it really happens I wouldn't play Storm anymore unless they unban a ritual.
I actually think banning all phyrexian mana spells (notably probe and mutagenic) would be great for the format but am personally more inclined to a Become Immense ban.
If Gitaxian Probe was banned, I would be extremely concerned about how WotC determines that a card should be banned. It's used in a lot of decks and isn't even a make or break card for those two decks.
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Current Decks:
Modern
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Legacy
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
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And how would your stock list look?
Greetings
King
UWRWorking on: Pyromancer AscensionUR
UBR TES
UBR TNT
GB Dredge
(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
UBWR Ad nauseam
GW Hatebears
Thanks for your advice, pal.
Greetings
King
UWRWorking on: Pyromancer AscensionUR
UBR TES
UBR TNT
GB Dredge
(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
UBWR Ad nauseam
GW Hatebears
Besides the transformational SB which I find interesting but do not like I am asking myself if Finkels decklist would like to use Preordain instead of Desperate Ravings as you get the same cards for less costs. You lose the flashback and the one card filling your GY, I know. But wouldn't the selection Preordain offers be much more efficient?
My spin on Finkels new list would look something like this:
4 x Goblin Electromancer
Spells
4 x Gitaxian Probe
3 x Sleight of Hand
4 x Serum Visions
4 x Thought Scour
4 x Manamorphose
4 x Desperate Ritual
3 x Past in Flames
4 x Preordain
4 x Pyretic Ritual
4 x Pyromancer Ascension
2 x Grapeshot
4 x Scalding Tarn
2 x Steam Vents
3 x Misty Rainforest
3 x Shivan Reef
3 x Island
1 x Mountain
15 Need to think about this one again
What is your opinion on it?
Greetings
King
/edit: Also if you want to contribute to the testing and are familiar with the deck we still need people testing the decks with us on xmage.
/edit2: Maybe I should add/swap the 4 Spirebluff Canals as he suggests at the end of the article.
UWRWorking on: Pyromancer AscensionUR
4 Goblin Electromancer
Spells (40)
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Manamorphose
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Thought Scour
3 Grapeshot
3 Past in Flames
1 Gifts Ungiven
3 Island
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Shivan Reef
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Steam Vents
1 Mountain
1 Sulfur Falls
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Empty the Warrens
3 Shatterstorm
2 Blood Moon
1 Defense Grid
1 Dispel
1 Echoing Truth
My friend is also playing classic Finkel Storm and he likes the stability given by Gifts and also the spicy part with 3 Grapeshot. I'm still not sure about 17 lands, but it feels smooth with 4 CMC cards in the main as well as Empty and Shatterstorm. I've played against Living End, Thing Ascension, Affinity (50-50 in the results) with great results. More to come!
Cheers!
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
@TomCourtenay So this version of gifts basically just swaps the ravings for an extra grapeshot, extra land, and fun-of gifts? These three things seem like small enough changes I don't see how it would change that much. I will be trying the list. I am curious why you only have 3 tarn listed instead of 4. For the most part the three matchups mentioned I feel are positive to begin with, so I am curious how this list fares against jund, infect, and burn.
UBR TES
UBR TNT
GB Dredge
(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
UBWR Ad nauseam
GW Hatebears
The idea of the testing is to give a discussion about the unban material. The whole metagame thread is filled with arguments not based on anything. So we want to provide data to talk about.
Thanks for the talk about Desperate Ravings, Atom.
Greetings
King
UWRWorking on: Pyromancer AscensionUR
UBR TES
UBR TNT
GB Dredge
(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
UBWR Ad nauseam
GW Hatebears
The changes are small, but I'm also trying sometimes a 2 Grapeshot and 2 Gifts to have more tutors, but it doesn't seem to work very well (not as much as 3 Grapeshot and 1 Gifts). Burn is still Burn, so it's rough, but Infect gets better with more Grapeshot main and a tutor to find them as well as Jund : you can put in the graveyard Grapeshots to clear the board with flashback and use the remaining to kill the opponent. So it's slightly better.
I've tried something very spicy, 4 Gifts, and it's out of this world :
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Sulfur Falls
3 Steam Vents
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Goblin Electromancer
Spell (36)
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Gifts Ungiven
3 Past in Flames
3 Desperate Ravings
2 Grapeshot
This version feels very grindy and has all the answers with a proper sideboard. It's really hard to pilot though, much more than Finkel's. Still debating between 4 Probe or 4 Sleight... However, the bad matchups get better with a Gifts sideboard and with ritual, you can find answers much more quickly. This one is definitely the best I've brewed since I picked the deck for a year now. It's a must-try!
Cheers!
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
Note: Looking to play Finkel's stock list, only adjusting the SB to make room for MadcapEmperion.
Don't bring it in against any midrange stuff, it's way too easy to kill from Jund, Abzan, Grixis, and Death and Taxes types of decks, even if they board out a majority of their removal. Also would not bring it in against control or any Primeval Titan/Scapeshift deck, it's fairly easy for them to just kill the Emperion with Valakut triggers before hitting you
I was previously trying Platinum Angel in order to give some game against Infect, but it dies too easily in other matchups, so I'm probably going to move back to Emperion.
UR Storm
URB Grixis Delver
W Death and Taxes
Basically anything with Scalding Tarn
True. From what ive experienced, bgx decks are really the bane of all my UR decks (thing ascension, suicide bloo and storm). T1 discard as well as creature removal for the TA and SB are really rough.
Round 1 vs RG Titan Breach - Win 2-0
G1: On the draw. Nothing special, I just comboed out a turn faster.
G2: Boarded in 3x Blood Moons and 1x Empty. Didn't draw the Blood Moons but won on turn 4 via grapeshot. Showed me his hand and he had 3x bolt and a summoners pact. Dont know why he didnt board out the bolts.
Round 2 vs a UR Control brew - Loss 0-2
This one is rough. He's playing Snapcasters, Torrential Gearhulk, Telling Time, a truckload of counters and 4x Thunderous Wrath.
G1: Felt hopeless here. Was on the play vut never got to play anything of note all the way to turn 7. He countered my ascensions, bolted my electromancers. Nothing. He miracle'd Wrath twice too.
G2: On the play, kept a one lander with 2 probes, 1 visions, ascension and two rituals. Got stuck on 1 land for 3-4 turns even with all the card draw. When i got the 2nd land, it was too late.
Round 3 vs BW Tokens
G1: He played T1 Thoughtseize, T2 Bitterblossom and T3 Liliana. Didnt matter, I comboed out t4.
G2: Boarded in 3x Blood Moon and 1x Empty. T3 he cast Lost Legacy naming Pyro Ascension. I got 3 cards out of the deal as i boarded out 1 ascension. I drew a land, a ritual and the singleton empty the warren. Next turn I cast Blood Moon to cut him off black mana. He passed then the following turn I stormed for 14 goblin tokens. Game was done after a couple of turns. Showed me his hand and saw the Orzhov card that gives -1/-1 to opponents creatures which couldve killed my goblins if it werent for my Blood Moon.
All in all the deck felt really smooth. Counter decks are just rough, so as discards. Didnt get the chance to use the Madcap Emperion sb though.
The best advice that I could give for fighting control is to hit your land drops. If I know I'm playing against a control player, I try to cantrip into every land drop possible until they present a clock, and then get into a position for one big turn. The thing with control is they generally will not have more than 2-3 counters in their hand at once. When you have an upwards of 6 or 7 mana available before you even start casting anything, that makes it incredibly hard for them to decide what to counter, as well as helping mitigate Mana Leak's efficiency. All of those extra land drops makes for more lines that you can take through several counterspells and win. A very patient and deliberate storm player actually has some serious game against control.
And hold your last Electromancer until you combo. We've said it alot on here, but think of it like a ritual and not a creature and you'll do much better!
UR Storm
URB Grixis Delver
W Death and Taxes
Basically anything with Scalding Tarn
Meh. Ban Become Immense and not Gitaxian Probe!
UWRWorking on: Pyromancer AscensionUR
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge