I play often against Chalice and I don't worry much about it, because it is soft hate - you can go under it with Empty or over it with Ascension (if you land it before they have Chalice on 2) and sometimes also Echoing Truth helps. I wouldn't spend additional sideboard slot on it.
When do you bring in Thing in the Ice? Do you have Affinity in your meta? Don't you miss Echoing Truth against hard hate and as utility card?
I am considering to hope to dodge unpopular Affinity and improve popular Infect matchup by swapping Shatterstorms for Spellskites... but I am not sure if it is worth it.
I play often against Chalice and I don't worry much about it, because it is soft hate - you can go under it with Empty or over it with Ascension (if you land it before they have Chalice on 2) and sometimes also Echoing Truth helps. I wouldn't spend additional sideboard slot on it.
When do you bring in Thing in the Ice? Do you have Affinity in your meta? Don't you miss Echoing Truth against hard hate and as utility card?
I am considering to hope to dodge unpopular Affinity and improve popular Infect matchup by swapping Shatterstorms for Spellskites... but I am not sure if it is worth it.
What about sudden shock - seems decent against both infect and affinity.
Well, decklist was Finkel with Flooded Strand instead of Misty Rainforest in main and fourth Empty the Warens instead of Defense Grid in side.
I won against Abzan Company twice, against Pyromancer Thing and BW tokens. Losses were to Burn and Merfolk. Some moments worth mentioning:
- both games against Burn were with turn 2 Eidolon, in first I couldn't find Grapeshot and in second I made a terrible mistake and wasted Bolt on other creature
- in most games agaisnt Abzan Company I was faster, but in one my opponent topdecked Finks after I made him use Chord to protect Melira, but at that point I had Ascension with one counter, four lands, cantrip to activate Ascension and ritual, so after few good draws I was able to go through whole deck, get four Ascensions and mill with Thought Scours
- Pyromancer Thing activated Ascension faster than me, but the best they did was gaining 16 life and that isn't relevant
- in first game against Merfolk I couldn't draw into cantrip and fizzled, next game my opponent dropped Chalice for 1 and two Spreading Seas and I couldn't find another red source to start the combo - it was probably a mistake to fetch for Island on first turn, although if I did I would die a turn earlier anyway, so hard to decide
-
Scrubbed out of SCG Orlando with Dredge, decided to sleeve up old faithful for one of the challenged and went 2-2, somehow 2-0-ing Lantern control. I dropped Tome Scour for Faithless looting to pitch dead draws, and I felt way more consistent.
Well, decklist was Finkel with Flooded Strand instead of Misty Rainforest in main and fourth Empty the Warens instead of Defense Grid in side.
I won against Abzan Company twice, against Pyromancer Thing and BW tokens. Losses were to Burn and Merfolk. Some moments worth mentioning:
- both games against Burn were with turn 2 Eidolon, in first I couldn't find Grapeshot and in second I made a terrible mistake and wasted Bolt on other creature
- in most games agaisnt Abzan Company I was faster, but in one my opponent topdecked Finks after I made him use Chord to protect Melira, but at that point I had Ascension with one counter, four lands, cantrip to activate Ascension and ritual, so after few good draws I was able to go through whole deck, get four Ascensions and mill with Thought Scours
- Pyromancer Thing activated Ascension faster than me, but the best they did was gaining 16 life and that isn't relevant
- in first game against Merfolk I couldn't draw into cantrip and fizzled, next game my opponent dropped Chalice for 1 and two Spreading Seas and I couldn't find another red source to start the combo - it was probably a mistake to fetch for Island on first turn, although if I did I would die a turn earlier anyway, so hard to decide
-
Scrubbed out of SCG Orlando with Dredge, decided to sleeve up old faithful for one of the challenged and went 2-2, somehow 2-0-ing Lantern control. I dropped Tome Scour for Faithless looting to pitch dead draws, and I felt way more consistent.
Just a side-note: Thought Scour is an important tool against Lantern Control, because you can draw a key revealed card (like Shatterstorm) in response to milling.
Is lantern running main deck cages now? At least before dredges popularity lantern was not that difficult of a matchup. Empty killed them before they could set up most of the time. Blood moon made it so they can't cast interaction. We have a graveyard based strategy which they help fuel in G1. It could be hard if they got the lock very early, but generally it was a positive matchup.
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UBR ANT UBR TES UBR TNT GB Dredge
(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
Scrubbed out of SCG Orlando with Dredge, decided to sleeve up old faithful for one of the challenged and went 2-2, somehow 2-0-ing Lantern control. I dropped Tome Scour for Faithless looting to pitch dead draws, and I felt way more consistent.
Just a side-note: Thought Scour is an important tool against Lantern Control, because you can draw a key revealed card (like Shatterstorm) in response to milling.
Honestly, I'd rather have looting in 90% of my other matchups, I don't like playing against lantern (it's like pulling teeth, naturally), and I feel it's already a bad matchup since they are going to be running more targeted GY hate for Dredge.
Is lantern running main deck cages now? At least before dredges popularity lantern was not that difficult of a matchup. Empty killed them before they could set up most of the time. Blood moon made it so they can't cast interaction. We have a graveyard based strategy which they help fuel in G1. It could be hard if they got the lock very early, but generally it was a positive matchup.
The guy I played against had them mainboarded, I won G2 by past in flames -> flashback Truth with 10 goblin tokens.
If they are running more hate for dredge then it is worse, but it is a relatively good matchup anyways, just because they fuel our game plan. Its been a while since the last looting "discussion" but in my opinion and experience the card disadvantage matters more than the selection almost all the time. Especially in matchups where they go long. I have noticed that shorter games it matters less but I have never been happy casting looting, especially when an ascension is online.
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(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
I think the looting discussion will always end up being a player preference. I personally always have bad draws so I prefer looting to pitch excess lands on my combo turn when I'm digging for Grapeshot.
Has anyone considered splashing black for Infernal Tutor? I know the prevailing wisdom is that it's unplayable without LED, but I'm not sure that's the case. The Legacy decks that run it are often trying to abuse it to tutor their win con (e.g. - Ad Nauseam, Tendrils, Burning Wish), but Bryant Cook has talked about often using it in TES without LED to get a second copy of a ritual or some artifact mana when he's short. The point is that with ascension available, we can frequently draw our whole deck for the grapeshot, so we don't need to tutor for it.
The question is, in an ascension build, could it be useful to tutor up a second copy of something to help power ascension? Or, suppose we need a redundant ritual to go off next turn. Or, we're mid combo with a plethora of mana and only one cantrip in hand, maybe a tutor can help us get a second sleight or something to give us a better chance of hitting PiF or grapeshot without fizzling?
It would also open up sideboard discard (which I'm not even sure we'd want, but I'm open to the discussion). Thoughts?
Has anyone considered splashing black for Infernal Tutor? I know the prevailing wisdom is that it's unplayable without LED, but I'm not sure that's the case. The Legacy decks that run it are often trying to abuse it to tutor their win con (e.g. - Ad Nauseam, Tendrils, Burning Wish), but Bryant Cook has talked about often using it in TES without LED to get a second copy of a ritual or some artifact mana when he's short. The point is that with ascension available, we can frequently draw our whole deck for the grapeshot, so we don't need to tutor for it.
The question is, in an ascension build, could it be useful to tutor up a second copy of something to help power ascension? Or, suppose we need a redundant ritual to go off next turn. Or, we're mid combo with a plethora of mana and only one cantrip in hand, maybe a tutor can help us get a second sleight or something to give us a better chance of hitting PiF or grapeshot without fizzling?
It would also open up sideboard discard (which I'm not even sure we'd want, but I'm open to the discussion). Thoughts?
My only thoughts with that is that its black.
I think a 3rd color in the deck is far too stretched.
I think there are several problems with this idea:
1. When TES looks for another ritual, I think it is about getting the combo going and get more Storm - in TES Storm count actually matters, because you win with just 10. Modern Storm doesn't really care about the Storm count.
2. In Modern Storm, using Tutor to look for a ritual is actually losing mana.
3. Looking for a cantrip with such an expensive spell isn't really better than playing a cantrip instead.
Finkel in his articles argues multiple times for Peer through Depths - it was quite good in this deck some time ago - it gives you some filtering, it can be easily cast at end of turn as bait and since it is Arcane, it can work with Pyretic Ritual. Yet it sees no play anymore.
I have tested it, and it really isn't that great. You are almost never hellbent at a time you want to cast it. It is too slow to just be getting a ritual. I don't know what you want to remove for it either. The other big issue is there are no black rituals in modern. That is part of the reason it is so good in legacy because dark rit, cabal rit, petal, and mox exist. Obviously LED is an enabler. Another reason legacy storm plays it is just by emptying your hand you usually have enough storm to kill. In this deck you have to use your hand and your graveyard/deck to have a chance. The other issue, is splashing a third color is harder to do for a combo turn element then a value card, which also is a big deal.
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UBR ANT UBR TES UBR TNT GB Dredge
(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
Yeah, I feel like the third color probably is the biggest issue. Stretching the mana base doesn't exactly give me a warm fuzzy feeling. I was just thinking that if we can turn some turn five hands into turn four hands it could be worth it. But you all make very good points, and I haven't tested it, as I don't own tutors.
I don't think that land is where we wanna be. If you're running the 18 land Faithless Looting build I could maybe see an argument, but the Finkel build is so tight on lands. If it's turn four and all I need is to top deck and drop an untapped land for the win, drawing that thing is going to feel pretty bad.
Had a chance to play a few random games with Spirebluff Cannal and Aetherflux Reservoir in a Finkel list.
Unexpectedly, fastland hurt me a few games, but also the life preservation was useful. Realistically, I think the problem shouldn't occur so often.
I was surprised how good the Reservoir was - it was able to hold off midrange decks until it was able to overwhelm them. It was also fast enough agaisnt Merfolk and even on pace with Suicide Zoo. It was also a convenient win condition. I haven't had a chance to play against Burn yet.
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When do you bring in Thing in the Ice? Do you have Affinity in your meta? Don't you miss Echoing Truth against hard hate and as utility card?
I am considering to hope to dodge unpopular Affinity and improve popular Infect matchup by swapping Shatterstorms for Spellskites... but I am not sure if it is worth it.
What about sudden shock - seems decent against both infect and affinity.
Wow - sounds great 4 and 2 - not bad at all.
Can you give us a run down and a 75?
Cheers!
I won against Abzan Company twice, against Pyromancer Thing and BW tokens. Losses were to Burn and Merfolk. Some moments worth mentioning:
- both games against Burn were with turn 2 Eidolon, in first I couldn't find Grapeshot and in second I made a terrible mistake and wasted Bolt on other creature
- in most games agaisnt Abzan Company I was faster, but in one my opponent topdecked Finks after I made him use Chord to protect Melira, but at that point I had Ascension with one counter, four lands, cantrip to activate Ascension and ritual, so after few good draws I was able to go through whole deck, get four Ascensions and mill with Thought Scours
- Pyromancer Thing activated Ascension faster than me, but the best they did was gaining 16 life and that isn't relevant
- in first game against Merfolk I couldn't draw into cantrip and fizzled, next game my opponent dropped Chalice for 1 and two Spreading Seas and I couldn't find another red source to start the combo - it was probably a mistake to fetch for Island on first turn, although if I did I would die a turn earlier anyway, so hard to decide
-
UR Storm
RBG Dredge
EDH:
UR Mizzix
GB Gitrog
WB Daxos
I love finkels list aye. It's brilliant.
Just a side-note: Thought Scour is an important tool against Lantern Control, because you can draw a key revealed card (like Shatterstorm) in response to milling.
UBR TES
UBR TNT
GB Dredge
(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
UBWR Ad nauseam
GW Hatebears
The guy I played against had them mainboarded, I won G2 by past in flames -> flashback Truth with 10 goblin tokens.
UR Storm
RBG Dredge
EDH:
UR Mizzix
GB Gitrog
WB Daxos
UBR TES
UBR TNT
GB Dredge
(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
UBWR Ad nauseam
GW Hatebears
UR Storm
RBG Dredge
EDH:
UR Mizzix
GB Gitrog
WB Daxos
Usually getting a turn 4 at times turn 3 kill, or board with 10+ goblins.
It's pretty awesome.
The question is, in an ascension build, could it be useful to tutor up a second copy of something to help power ascension? Or, suppose we need a redundant ritual to go off next turn. Or, we're mid combo with a plethora of mana and only one cantrip in hand, maybe a tutor can help us get a second sleight or something to give us a better chance of hitting PiF or grapeshot without fizzling?
It would also open up sideboard discard (which I'm not even sure we'd want, but I'm open to the discussion). Thoughts?
My only thoughts with that is that its black.
I think a 3rd color in the deck is far too stretched.
1. When TES looks for another ritual, I think it is about getting the combo going and get more Storm - in TES Storm count actually matters, because you win with just 10. Modern Storm doesn't really care about the Storm count.
2. In Modern Storm, using Tutor to look for a ritual is actually losing mana.
3. Looking for a cantrip with such an expensive spell isn't really better than playing a cantrip instead.
Finkel in his articles argues multiple times for Peer through Depths - it was quite good in this deck some time ago - it gives you some filtering, it can be easily cast at end of turn as bait and since it is Arcane, it can work with Pyretic Ritual. Yet it sees no play anymore.
UBR TES
UBR TNT
GB Dredge
(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
UBWR Ad nauseam
GW Hatebears
Unexpectedly, fastland hurt me a few games, but also the life preservation was useful. Realistically, I think the problem shouldn't occur so often.
I was surprised how good the Reservoir was - it was able to hold off midrange decks until it was able to overwhelm them. It was also fast enough agaisnt Merfolk and even on pace with Suicide Zoo. It was also a convenient win condition. I haven't had a chance to play against Burn yet.