The main issue I have with BG is that it just feels like a worse version of Boggles. UG has the ability to be fast and evasive, where BG is conditionally evasive. If you want more protection and better mana Boggles seems to be a better fit. UG is great in that it can just snipe kills, sometimes even vs. the grindy decks just because we are so fast. Needing to get a basic swamp can really bite you back, and UG has the benefit of not having and UU costing spells as well as having hierarch help cast blue things.
Also check out Owen's newest article, he talks about his extensive testing and the list he played at GPLA
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Modern URBSome variant of Death's Shadow URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version) JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / Infect
Infect really doesn't need Serum Visions. The deck already has 4 Gitaxian Probes and 2 Twisted Image for cantrips. If anything I can see cutting Spell Pierce since that card is often dead a lot of the time (or at least it has been for me).
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Modern URBSome variant of Death's Shadow URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version) JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / Infect
I just played infect in GPLA against my better judgement.
My reasons for doing so was because I feel like i'm pretty damn good with the deck. I also didn't have enough time to test something else for the tournament and felt more comfortable playing something I knew the ins and outs of.
My list was nearly the same as Jessup's from the recent SCG tour. (4 Muta, 4 BI version). Only changes were dryad arbor in from the sideboard to make room for 1 spellskite in the 75.
My overall record for the tournament was 3-4 drop. My day was, loose one, win one, loose one, win one. Repeat. I never won a game 2-0, all my matches were 2-1 and extremely close. Highlights include being blood mooned by affinity in g2 and making no relevant plays for the rest of the game, and getting turn 2ed by Grixis Reanimator.
Deck, as always, is powerful. My losses including mono green stompy. g2 I played BI for lethal into fog, and then BI for lethal into Vines of Vastwood the very next turn. Lost also to B/W eldrazi taxes, affinity, and burn. Wins agianst Storm, Grixis control, and griselbrand.
Disappointing main event result for me, happy at least that I felt my play was very tight and never lost a match to missplay.
Played burn in the Modern Showdown on sunday and finished 31st, so that was alright.
Deck is very good, but there's too much interaction right now. People are prepared for the infect matchup. I believe its still very possible to do well with the deck, but you need to run pretty well to do so.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but all the people are saying that in this new meta there are a lot of interaction and it is hard for infect, but still almost all the lists that I see are super all in and are trying to win as fast as possible with 4 mutagenic, 4 might and 4 become immense...
Most of the lists runs 0 spellskite main, sometimes 0 in the 75 and no groundswell at all, please explain me how do you expect to interact with your opponent removal with such limited ressources to save your creatures?
In a burn/jund/jeskai heavy meta, I want my spellskites and my groundwells mainboard
You go all in now because it has become much more difficult to win once you make it to the mid to late game. I used to be a believer in 2 serum visions, 1 Spellskite, and 1 Wild Defiance main but my testing has shown that we can't really afford that anymore.
The best chance infect has at fighting other decks is racing, especially the grindy decks that have an assortment of path, terminate, dreadbore, bolt, decay etc..... Which makes it really hard to slog through. As people have been saying in their testing the best way is just to go fast and sometimes they don't have answers. The longer we draw out the game the worse it generally gets for us, unless we draw the perfect sculpted hand around removal and counters.
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Modern URBSome variant of Death's Shadow URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version) JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / Infect
Infect has less number of counter spells and protection than removals in control decks, but we can easily play around bolt+snap-bolt on 3rd turn with 2 pumps and 1 protection or with few vines(blessing, spell pierce, dispel etc.).
Control deck pilots know about wild defiance and it is hard to play it through mana leak or other counter spells. Burn never lets me play WD on 2nd with hierarch,on 3rd it can be too late.
I played game vs UWR, it was my 6 turn and I had agent on board, BI for lethal in hand, double vines and dispel for protection. Was it a perfect hand against UWR?- yes. After declaring attackers and no blocks I played BI, opponent answered with path to exile, I played vines, opponent in response played snap+bolt, I played second vines, opponent played another bolt from hand, I dispelled it and then he played one more path from hand)
So I decided to test just pure race build and it was much more successful.
Yeah man, I know the feeling, I feel naked without skite. 4 mutagenic makes it a lot easier to turn 3 kill with inkmoth though, serving a similar role as invigorate. 4 probe/mutagenic builds can support 4 become immense too, even though jessup went up to 10 fetchlands to further facilitate them. Also, post board when you take out some amount of pump, the extra BI goes a long way towards getting a kill; in grindy matchups the graveyard fills up naturally. Not saying it is the better build, just breaking down some of the advantages.
Infect has less number of counter spells and protection than removals in control decks, but we can easily play around bolt+snap-bolt on 3rd turn with 2 pumps and 1 protection or with few vines(blessing, spell pierce, dispel etc.).
Control deck pilots know about wild defiance and it is hard to play it through mana leak or other counter spells. Burn never lets me play WD on 2nd with hierarch,on 3rd it can be too late.
I played game vs UWR, it was my 6 turn and I had agent on board, BI for lethal in hand, double vines and dispel for protection. Was it a perfect hand against UWR?- yes. After declaring attackers and no blocks I played BI, opponent answered with path to exile, I played vines, opponent in response played snap+bolt, I played second vines, opponent played another bolt from hand, I dispelled it and then he played one more path from hand)
So I decided to test just pure race build and it was much more successful.
This seems very results oriented. I think you just need to accept that you could beat 3 removal spells but not 4. Your opponent had a very stacked hand, and to be able to beat 4 removal spells in one turn is a stretch. This scenario is truly an outlier.
While it may be an outlier you have to keep in mind the longer that you prolong the game to sculpt a "perfect" hand to go off they also too. This is why probe is insane in these matchups. I think that the race build is better for open metas but a more "grindy" build with Wild defiances, skites, sylvan scryings etc... could be fine if your meta is loaded with these decks (although if its filled with grindy decks maybe infect isn't the best choice either)
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Modern URBSome variant of Death's Shadow URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version) JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / Infect
Switching become immense #4 to groundswell makes a lot of sense, I'm always deliberating that slot. I'll draw too many BI, get pissed, put in groundswell, and then wish it was BI again. Overall it's about the same, can't have it both ways all the time
When I play 3 BI, if I get 2 in my hand (in the start of the game in less than 4 turns) and they stay dead less than in advance games (in more than 3 turns) and it increase the probability to be killed.
Having 2 BI get rids for a pumper, GP that can fulfill the graveyard. And if we mulligan it would be worst.
If there are 4 the probability to have two, increase a lot more.
Most of the times when I kill 2nd turn it has been with 2 pumpers +4/+4 and a mutagenic. Most of the times I kill in 2 separates attacks with only +4/+4 pumpers.
It would be interesting to know what is best in probability (in maths, that I'm not good)to kill in the 2nd turn or 3rd with a number of +4/+4 pumpers, MG and BI (counting the GP).
I believe you understood the point you were trying to get across.
I don't have any Misty Rainforest or Verdant Catacombs, nor Kitchen Finks for budget reasons
So my list is:
Main: -2 fetchs, -1 Viridian Corrupter, -1 Become Immense, +1 Breeding Pool, +1 Spellskite, +1 Groundswell, +1 Rancor
Side: -4 Kitchen Finks, +2 Spellskite, +1 Pulse of Murasa, +1 Wild Defiance
Having to find an alternative to Kitchen Finks, I decided to keep some spellskite, viridian and spellskite being a nonbo made me cut it from the main and replace it with a skite
Not having 10 fetchs I find 4 become immense to be too much so I replaced one with a groundswell
I also decided to add a rancor because I feel like I needed a little more invasion against match ups with a lot of blockers, I chose rancor because I had enough spell costing blue in the main and rancor is good vs grindy match ups
Report
Game 1: 2-0 vs budget Tron
He got tron turn 3 both games but in game 1 I had 2 elves and he could only exile one and in game 2 he had a blocker and exiled my elf instead of my nexus which cost him the game, which he would have won.
Game 2: 2-0 vs Gift's Ungiven/Thopter combo
In game 1 he mulled to 5, had great answer but I had the protection. In game 2 I two turn killed him with a spellskite, he tried to path it during the combat phase which resulted to a kicked vines for 11 damage on the first go and 9 on the second. He used gift's ungiven but he drew the Elesh Norn the turn before so he was not able to play it with the combo.
Game 3: 0-2 vs Golgari Eldrazi
A strange brew consisting of everything that is bad for us: lili, chalice, dismember, goyf, etc.
Game 1 he is on the play and top deck a chalice on turn 2... gg
Game 2 he plays a chalice on turn 1 with a simian spirit guide, I only had one answer in my 60 but didn't drew it... gg
Game 4: 2-1 vs Jund
In game 1 I had mulled to 5, but I think I might have won if I played slower. On a turn I had lethal with inkmoth and played in a way that dodged every removal except terminate... which he had
In game 2, I grinded him out with my spellskites and pulse returning an inkmoth from my grave
In game 3 I had a ridicule hand with 3 lands, 1 inkmoth and 3 infect creatures and then drawing a spellskite and a noble in the next turns. Too many creatures for him to handle
So I finished 3-1 facing only control decks, pretty happy with my results. However I have to say that the game vs eldrazi was horrible, that was the reason I ddin't play during the eldrazi winter. I really feel like that particular match up is close to be unwinnable...
Note: I didn't win a single dice roll from the entire event which really suck, but I managed to fight my way through!
I replaced a mutagenic with a groundswell, I feel like 3 mutagenic is enough with only 3 become immense and I sometimes had 2 mutagenic in hand and wished it would have been a mutagenic and a +4/+4 spell, so more +4/+4 to compensate the missing become immense seems ok
I added a viridian corrupter in the main for an extra out vs chalice, but it will pretty much always it the sideboard vs match up where I bring in my other skites.
I moved a twisted from main to sb and removed a dismember from the 75, I didn't see a single melira deck, so having 3 dismember feels a little bit too much for me, I prefer to keep more twisted in the 75.
Standard
UB UB Midrange UB
Modern
GRWUBTribal Flames ZooGRWUB
RUGTemur DelverRUG
Legacy
UW Stoneblade UW
Thanks, will try these things and use what i like more and adapt to the meta once i start noticing how it feels.
Also check out Owen's newest article, he talks about his extensive testing and the list he played at GPLA
URB Some variant of Death's Shadow
URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version)
JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / InfectCommander/EDH
This pile of cards when I feel like it
Death's Shadow discord link
URB Some variant of Death's Shadow
URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version)
JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / InfectCommander/EDH
This pile of cards when I feel like it
Death's Shadow discord link
Standard
UB UB Midrange UB
Modern
GRWUBTribal Flames ZooGRWUB
RUGTemur DelverRUG
Legacy
UW Stoneblade UW
URB Some variant of Death's Shadow
URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version)
JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / InfectCommander/EDH
This pile of cards when I feel like it
Death's Shadow discord link
My reasons for doing so was because I feel like i'm pretty damn good with the deck. I also didn't have enough time to test something else for the tournament and felt more comfortable playing something I knew the ins and outs of.
My list was nearly the same as Jessup's from the recent SCG tour. (4 Muta, 4 BI version). Only changes were dryad arbor in from the sideboard to make room for 1 spellskite in the 75.
My overall record for the tournament was 3-4 drop. My day was, loose one, win one, loose one, win one. Repeat. I never won a game 2-0, all my matches were 2-1 and extremely close. Highlights include being blood mooned by affinity in g2 and making no relevant plays for the rest of the game, and getting turn 2ed by Grixis Reanimator.
Deck, as always, is powerful. My losses including mono green stompy. g2 I played BI for lethal into fog, and then BI for lethal into Vines of Vastwood the very next turn. Lost also to B/W eldrazi taxes, affinity, and burn. Wins agianst Storm, Grixis control, and griselbrand.
Disappointing main event result for me, happy at least that I felt my play was very tight and never lost a match to missplay.
Played burn in the Modern Showdown on sunday and finished 31st, so that was alright.
Deck is very good, but there's too much interaction right now. People are prepared for the infect matchup. I believe its still very possible to do well with the deck, but you need to run pretty well to do so.
Most of the lists runs 0 spellskite main, sometimes 0 in the 75 and no groundswell at all, please explain me how do you expect to interact with your opponent removal with such limited ressources to save your creatures?
In a burn/jund/jeskai heavy meta, I want my spellskites and my groundwells mainboard
Standard
UB UB Midrange UB
Modern
GRWUBTribal Flames ZooGRWUB
RUGTemur DelverRUG
Legacy
UW Stoneblade UW
URB Some variant of Death's Shadow
URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version)
JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / InfectCommander/EDH
This pile of cards when I feel like it
Death's Shadow discord link
Control deck pilots know about wild defiance and it is hard to play it through mana leak or other counter spells. Burn never lets me play WD on 2nd with hierarch,on 3rd it can be too late.
I played game vs UWR, it was my 6 turn and I had agent on board, BI for lethal in hand, double vines and dispel for protection. Was it a perfect hand against UWR?- yes. After declaring attackers and no blocks I played BI, opponent answered with path to exile, I played vines, opponent in response played snap+bolt, I played second vines, opponent played another bolt from hand, I dispelled it and then he played one more path from hand)
So I decided to test just pure race build and it was much more successful.
This seems very results oriented. I think you just need to accept that you could beat 3 removal spells but not 4. Your opponent had a very stacked hand, and to be able to beat 4 removal spells in one turn is a stretch. This scenario is truly an outlier.
URB Some variant of Death's Shadow
URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version)
JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / InfectCommander/EDH
This pile of cards when I feel like it
Death's Shadow discord link
I believe you understood the point you were trying to get across.
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Glistener Elf
4x Blighted Agent
1x Spellskite
Spells (28)
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Mutagenic Growth
4x Might of Old Krosa
1x Groundswell
3x Become Immense
4x Vines of Vastwood
2x Apostle's Blessing
1x Distortion Strike
1x Rancor
2x Twisted Image
1x Dismember
1x Spell Pierce
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Inkmoth Nexus
2x Pendelhaven
3x Breeding Pool
2x Forest
1x Pulse of Murasa
2x Spellskite
1x Wild Defiance
2x Dispel
1x Spell Pierce
1x Dryad Arbor
2x Nature's Claim
1x Unravel the Aether
1x Twisted Image
2x Dismember
1x Grafdigger's Cage
I don't have any Misty Rainforest or Verdant Catacombs, nor Kitchen Finks for budget reasons
So my list is:
Main: -2 fetchs, -1 Viridian Corrupter, -1 Become Immense, +1 Breeding Pool, +1 Spellskite, +1 Groundswell, +1 Rancor
Side: -4 Kitchen Finks, +2 Spellskite, +1 Pulse of Murasa, +1 Wild Defiance
Having to find an alternative to Kitchen Finks, I decided to keep some spellskite, viridian and spellskite being a nonbo made me cut it from the main and replace it with a skite
Not having 10 fetchs I find 4 become immense to be too much so I replaced one with a groundswell
I also decided to add a rancor because I feel like I needed a little more invasion against match ups with a lot of blockers, I chose rancor because I had enough spell costing blue in the main and rancor is good vs grindy match ups
Report
Game 1: 2-0 vs budget Tron
He got tron turn 3 both games but in game 1 I had 2 elves and he could only exile one and in game 2 he had a blocker and exiled my elf instead of my nexus which cost him the game, which he would have won.
Game 2: 2-0 vs Gift's Ungiven/Thopter combo
In game 1 he mulled to 5, had great answer but I had the protection. In game 2 I two turn killed him with a spellskite, he tried to path it during the combat phase which resulted to a kicked vines for 11 damage on the first go and 9 on the second. He used gift's ungiven but he drew the Elesh Norn the turn before so he was not able to play it with the combo.
Game 3: 0-2 vs Golgari Eldrazi
A strange brew consisting of everything that is bad for us: lili, chalice, dismember, goyf, etc.
Game 1 he is on the play and top deck a chalice on turn 2... gg
Game 2 he plays a chalice on turn 1 with a simian spirit guide, I only had one answer in my 60 but didn't drew it... gg
Game 4: 2-1 vs Jund
In game 1 I had mulled to 5, but I think I might have won if I played slower. On a turn I had lethal with inkmoth and played in a way that dodged every removal except terminate... which he had
In game 2, I grinded him out with my spellskites and pulse returning an inkmoth from my grave
In game 3 I had a ridicule hand with 3 lands, 1 inkmoth and 3 infect creatures and then drawing a spellskite and a noble in the next turns. Too many creatures for him to handle
So I finished 3-1 facing only control decks, pretty happy with my results. However I have to say that the game vs eldrazi was horrible, that was the reason I ddin't play during the eldrazi winter. I really feel like that particular match up is close to be unwinnable...
Note: I didn't win a single dice roll from the entire event which really suck, but I managed to fight my way through!
My list for the next event:
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Glistener Elf
4x Blighted Agent
1x Spellskite
1x Viridian Corrupter
Spells (27)
4x Gitaxian Probe
3x Mutagenic Growth
4x Might of Old Krosa
2x Groundswell
3x Become Immense
4x Vines of Vastwood
2x Apostle's Blessing
1x Distortion Strike
1x Rancor
1x Twisted Image
1x Dismember
1x Spell Pierce
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Inkmoth Nexus
2x Pendelhaven
3x Breeding Pool
2x Forest
1x Pulse of Murasa
2x Spellskite
1x Wild Defiance
2x Dispel
1x Spell Pierce
1x Dryad Arbor
2x Nature's Claim
1x Unravel the Aether
2x Twisted Image
1x Dismember
1x Grafdigger's Cage
I replaced a mutagenic with a groundswell, I feel like 3 mutagenic is enough with only 3 become immense and I sometimes had 2 mutagenic in hand and wished it would have been a mutagenic and a +4/+4 spell, so more +4/+4 to compensate the missing become immense seems ok
I added a viridian corrupter in the main for an extra out vs chalice, but it will pretty much always it the sideboard vs match up where I bring in my other skites.
I moved a twisted from main to sb and removed a dismember from the 75, I didn't see a single melira deck, so having 3 dismember feels a little bit too much for me, I prefer to keep more twisted in the 75.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.