@callahan
your creature base should ideally be 4 elf 4 agent 4 inkmoth nexus and 4 noble hierarch. 12 infect creatures. some lists run 1 ichorclaw in addition, but that is preference-based. most lists run at least 1 spellskite in the main too, but 2 seems effective. good luck!
@tokyoshi
i currently run 3 Become Immense with an extra sleight of hand, so for me, 2 sleight. i use it to help me find the card or tuck it depending on the situation. i feel 4 just hurt too much when i drew 2 in an opening hand...
@callahan
your creature base should ideally be 4 elf 4 agent 4 inkmoth nexus and 4 noble hierarch. 12 infect creatures. some lists run 1 ichorclaw in addition, but that is preference-based. most lists run at least 1 spellskite in the main too, but 2 seems effective. good luck!
@tokyoshi
i currently run 3 Become Immense with an extra sleight of hand, so for me, 2 sleight. i use it to help me find the card or tuck it depending on the situation. i feel 4 just hurt too much when i drew 2 in an opening hand...
Seems like you got some nice results. Would most infect players agree that Abzan is a good matchup? Also, what are you cutting for groundswell that would be normally in lists that don't run it? I currently don't run any but I think doing it would increase my nut-hand percentage quite a bit.
I'm currently running 2 pact of negations (1 in MD, one in side) and they are working very, very nicely. Against more counter heavy decks they can provide wins and protection where my vines/apostle's couldnt and can also fill the graveyard for becoming immense if need be. I haven't seen them in any decklists so I'm putting out there that they have worked for me quite well and are worth considering.
I'd like to talk about Become Immense as well. Become Immense is a star card in my deck and works with extreme synergy to everything I'm doing and has won numerous games out of nowhere. I run 4 currently in my maindeck and haven't looked back yet but I do recognise that they can clog up my hand sometimes and become dead cards. How many Become Immenses do you guys run and how do you feel they've helped you personally?
Looking for some opinions from anyone who has one. Thanks guys!
Yea, thats my deck alright. Abzan is an alright matchup. There are many variants. I like groundswell a lot more than many others. It further increases your chance for turn 2 kills. And solidifies your turn 3 kills. Pact of N used to be an auto include before. If eel its more of a personal choice, now.
What do you think changed that lead to Pact becoming more of a personal choice?
I recently lost a game against Abzan to a suprise Curse of Death's Hold and since then I've becoming incredibly paranoid about facing it in matchups. What kind of decks usually run this in their sideboard and is it appropriate to side in Nature's Claim over Twisted Image against black decks as a precautionary measure? I understand Twisted Image can be used beyond killing Spellskite but perhaps its a necessary evil? I expect Cure of Death's hold to appear in control decks that run black against affinity and infect. Am I just being paranoid here? How are your experiences with this card everybody?
Hold onto a mutagenic growth or pendalhaven to save your creatures if you see/suspect Orzhov Pontiff.
If you're not killing them that turn you don't always have to use all your pump for offense.
Only real way is to distract your opponent as he is casting it, and then rip-up the card. If he double-sleeves, make sure its a really good distraction.
That.......or you can keep a pump spell on hand if you know he has it.
Im actually considering brewing with red again. I see the power of red/green infect in legacy and vintage. The addition of assault strobe greatly increases your turn 2 kill count.
While there might be some alright decks that run red in legacy, nothing that I have seen recently, red really clogs the mana base. If you can make the double strike spells consistent with enough pump, try it. Butv since the problem people seem to face is consistency, it may be difficult. Another point to consider is the sideboard. With black, you can have discard or decay, but with red, what would you use to give you an edge?
Good luck with your adventures overall! Just food for thought!
Oh for sure. I wont really change my UG build (especially since I invested a lot in foiling it...lol) But I do want to brew-test with red. Any consistency issues GR or GRU would have, BUG or UG would also have. Its not the spells themselves, after-all. Its the lands.
@UltraMagnus I'll be playing in GP Singapore but I haven't had a chance to face the following decks:
Wilted Abzan
Abzan Company
Company Elves
How should I play and board against these? Thanks in advance! general UG Infect decklist:
-Tom Ross's list except:
-1 Sleight of Hand, -4 Might of Old Krosa, +2nd copy Spellskite, +4 Groundswell
@UltraMagnus I'll be playing in GP Singapore but I haven't had a chance to face the following decks:
Wilted Abzan
Abzan Company
Company Elves
How should I play and board against these? Thanks in advance! general UG Infect decklist:
-Tom Ross's list except:
-1 Sleight of Hand, -4 Might of Old Krosa, +2nd copy Spellskite, +4 Groundswell
Unfortunately Melira, Sylvok Outcast is back. Even before Pod was banned, Melira had mostly dissapeared from pod decks, but now thanks to Collected Company Melira is back, not only main deck in Abzan Company, but also usually as a 1 of in the Company Elves sideboard. It means that we have to go back to the old rule of running removal that hits both Spellskite and Melira. This means that Twisted Image is no longer as good as it was when Spellskite was our only concern. Dismember is the logical replacement, and I would seriously consider adding 2 more to your 75, and dropping 2 Twisted Image. I am even looking at going back to running 2 main and 2 side, which is something to consider, although fitting it in to the main deck is proving difficult.
Dismember is not only good for removing Spellskite and Melira, it also hits key elves such as Heritage Druid, is great against Splinter Twin, and of course is excellent in the mirror.
Also against the company decks, Dispel is good. It is worth noting that Collected Company, Chord of Calling and Summoner's Pact are all instant, so Dispel can be more reliable than Spell Pierce here, especially against elves where they usually have a pile of mana available and laugh at Spell Pierce.
As for Wiltleaf Abzan, that matchup is probably easier than normal Abzan/Junk as they tend to run less removal and discard, and focus more on creatures. It is really just a matter of finding a way through, while being mindful of removal, which is what our deck does well.
Actually, OlleR on MTGO has the same 74-card list as I do, and he opted for 1 Dismember over Dryad Arbor in the maindeck... so that says something. Thanks so much! I tried synchronizing your suggestions with Tom Ross's SB Guide from SCG, and I have concluded that I will try the following SB modifications:
-3 Twisted Image
+3rd and 4th Dismember
+2nd Dispel
I'll be losing some game against Affinity, but it's okay since they aren't that prominent around here. Will try out these modifications on the coming GPT Singapore this Friday and Saturday (even if I already have two byes HAHA) Thanks again!
I went 2-2, thought it should have been 3-1, and Ill explain:
Round 1: Collective Company: 2-1: So I guess it was fate, that the day I changed my SB to be prepared for CC, I faced CC first. Game 1 was actually easy. He had no real responses except for an early path to exile. I was able to swing for lethal. Game 2 he go melira and skite out at the same time, which effectively locks me down. I just could not draw the necessary answers to deal with both of those on the board. Game 3 was faster. I was able to dispel his chord in response to my attack, and then I killed him a turn later. Dispel was a stroke of genius by UltraM. I think the next time I play this deck, Ill be siding in Dispel x2, as well as 2-3 claims, and 2-3 dismembers. It will slow me down in terms of pump or draw, but it will ensure I have a clear path.
Round 2: B/U Mill: 1-2: I have to admit, this deck was pretty streamlined by a committed pilot. It can kill turn 4-5. Generally speaking though its not very interactive on either side. Game 1 was an easy turn 4 kill. Game 2 he got skite into the mix, we grinded, and it just was not enough to get him down. Game 3 he got me down to 4 cards int he library. I was 1 swing away to kill him off, just need 1 extra point of damage. I need to top deck a pump, and I only had 1 pump left in the 4 remaining cards. Of course, I didnt get it, and 2 turns after, it was game. I feel that overall, the mill deck is still far weaker against UG Infect. But sometimes the heart of the cards is just not there.
Round 3: Bloom Titan: 1-2: I have mixed experiences with this deck, but today was obnoxiously horrible. Game 1 was a pretty easy win, he had a near perfect hand and just needed a land. Never got it, and I got it. Game 2.....turn 1 kill. Literally. I didnt even draw a card. Game 3, turn 3 kill after I mulled to a weak 6. I dont even want to discuss bloom titan. lol
Round 4: G/W Elves: 2-0: An unskilled pilot made this matchup unfair. Not much to say here other than it was a massacre.
All in all, I think the SB works. Though I feel as though I want to add a 3rd dispel, as it worked so well vs CC. Though I guess Ill have to see how prevalent it becomes. I also want to remove a 4th claim, for a second recall. Recall just has such a negative effect vs affinity.
Round 3: Bloom Titan: 1-2: I have mixed experiences with this deck, but today was obnoxiously horrible. Game 1 was a pretty easy win, he had a near perfect hand and just needed a land. Never got it, and I got it. Game 2.....turn 1 kill. Literally. I didnt even draw a card. Game 3, turn 3 kill after I mulled to a weak 6. I dont even want to discuss bloom titan. lol
There is also some tricky interactions when Hive Mind is on the board and they cast a pact. If they cast any pact you can announce that you wish to retain priority with your copy of the pact on the stack, then Spell Pierce the copy. They will copy your Spell Pierce, but if you have 2 open mana you can pay the cost. Of course you fail to pay for Spell Pierce that you cast, since it was targeting your copy. The copy of the pact will get countered and you won't die on your turn. Most of the time if you have Spell Pierce in hand, you would just counter the Hive Mind itself, but you can't always do that if they have enough mana to pay for the Spell Pierce.
Similarly, if they cast Slaughter Pact on one of your creatures, while Hive Mind is on the board, you can announce that you wish to retain priority with the copy targeting the same creature on the stack, and cast Apostle's Blessing on your creature giving it protection from black. Both Slaughter Pact and the copy will get countered on resolution, and you get to live for another turn.
Getting beaten on turn 1 was rough though, I guess they cast Amulet of Vigor with a Simian Spirit Guide and went to town with bounce lands and Summer Bloom lol.
Yea. I literally had no chance in game 2 and 3. I was hoping to at least nature's claim his amulet. But I didnt even get that chance. It was just bad news sauce for me last night
I know the vines trick, as well, but I cant do it if I didnt even start my turn 1 yet. lol
Can I treat Wilted Abzan as something like GW Hatebears and board in the full-4 Dismembers? :)) I have a great Game1 due to minimal removal from them, and Game2-3 since I'll be a bit slower I'd like to stop some opposition myself.
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your creature base should ideally be 4 elf 4 agent 4 inkmoth nexus and 4 noble hierarch. 12 infect creatures. some lists run 1 ichorclaw in addition, but that is preference-based. most lists run at least 1 spellskite in the main too, but 2 seems effective. good luck!
@tokyoshi
i currently run 3 Become Immense with an extra sleight of hand, so for me, 2 sleight. i use it to help me find the card or tuck it depending on the situation. i feel 4 just hurt too much when i drew 2 in an opening hand...
your creature base should ideally be 4 elf 4 agent 4 inkmoth nexus and 4 noble hierarch. 12 infect creatures. some lists run 1 ichorclaw in addition, but that is preference-based. most lists run at least 1 spellskite in the main too, but 2 seems effective. good luck!
@tokyoshi
i currently run 3 Become Immense with an extra sleight of hand, so for me, 2 sleight. i use it to help me find the card or tuck it depending on the situation. i feel 4 just hurt too much when i drew 2 in an opening hand...
Yea, thats my deck alright. Abzan is an alright matchup. There are many variants. I like groundswell a lot more than many others. It further increases your chance for turn 2 kills. And solidifies your turn 3 kills. Pact of N used to be an auto include before. If eel its more of a personal choice, now.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
I recently lost a game against Abzan to a suprise Curse of Death's Hold and since then I've becoming incredibly paranoid about facing it in matchups. What kind of decks usually run this in their sideboard and is it appropriate to side in Nature's Claim over Twisted Image against black decks as a precautionary measure? I understand Twisted Image can be used beyond killing Spellskite but perhaps its a necessary evil? I expect Cure of Death's hold to appear in control decks that run black against affinity and infect. Am I just being paranoid here? How are your experiences with this card everybody?
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
If you're not killing them that turn you don't always have to use all your pump for offense.
That.......or you can keep a pump spell on hand if you know he has it.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
Good luck with your adventures overall! Just food for thought!
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
Wilted Abzan
Abzan Company
Company Elves
How should I play and board against these? Thanks in advance! general UG Infect decklist:
-Tom Ross's list except:
-1 Sleight of Hand, -4 Might of Old Krosa, +2nd copy Spellskite, +4 Groundswell
SB:
2 Dismember
1 Dispel
2 Spell Pierce
3 Twisted Image
4 Nature's Claim
1 Wild Defiance (2 maindeck)
2 Spellskite
Dismember is not only good for removing Spellskite and Melira, it also hits key elves such as Heritage Druid, is great against Splinter Twin, and of course is excellent in the mirror.
Also against the company decks, Dispel is good. It is worth noting that Collected Company, Chord of Calling and Summoner's Pact are all instant, so Dispel can be more reliable than Spell Pierce here, especially against elves where they usually have a pile of mana available and laugh at Spell Pierce.
As for Wiltleaf Abzan, that matchup is probably easier than normal Abzan/Junk as they tend to run less removal and discard, and focus more on creatures. It is really just a matter of finding a way through, while being mindful of removal, which is what our deck does well.
Good luck in GP Singapore!!
3x Breeding Pool
3x Forest
4x Inkmoth Nexus
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Pendelhaven
2x Windswept Heath
2x Wooded Foothills
Instant (21)
2x Apostle's Blessing
3x Become Immense
4x Groundswell
4x Might of Old Krosa
4x Mutagenic Growth
4x Vines of Vastwood
4x Blighted Agent
4x Glistener Elf
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Spellskite
Sorcery (6)
2x Distortion Strike
3x Gitaxian Probe
1x Sleight of Hand
4x Dismember
2x Dispel
1x Hurkyl's Recall
4x Nature's Claim
2x Spellskite
2x Wild Defiance
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
-3 Twisted Image
+3rd and 4th Dismember
+2nd Dispel
I'll be losing some game against Affinity, but it's okay since they aren't that prominent around here. Will try out these modifications on the coming GPT Singapore this Friday and Saturday (even if I already have two byes HAHA) Thanks again!
3x Breeding Pool
3x Forest
4x Inkmoth Nexus
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Pendelhaven
2x Windswept Heath
2x Wooded Foothills
Instant (21)
2x Apostle's Blessing
3x Become Immense
4x Groundswell
4x Might of Old Krosa
4x Mutagenic Growth
4x Vines of Vastwood
4x Blighted Agent
4x Glistener Elf
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Spellskite
Sorcery (6)
2x Distortion Strike
3x Gitaxian Probe
1x Sleight of Hand
4x Dismember
2x Dispel
1x Hurkyl's Recall
4x Nature's Claim
2x Spellskite
2x Wild Defiance
I went 2-2, thought it should have been 3-1, and Ill explain:
Round 1: Collective Company: 2-1: So I guess it was fate, that the day I changed my SB to be prepared for CC, I faced CC first. Game 1 was actually easy. He had no real responses except for an early path to exile. I was able to swing for lethal. Game 2 he go melira and skite out at the same time, which effectively locks me down. I just could not draw the necessary answers to deal with both of those on the board. Game 3 was faster. I was able to dispel his chord in response to my attack, and then I killed him a turn later. Dispel was a stroke of genius by UltraM. I think the next time I play this deck, Ill be siding in Dispel x2, as well as 2-3 claims, and 2-3 dismembers. It will slow me down in terms of pump or draw, but it will ensure I have a clear path.
Round 2: B/U Mill: 1-2: I have to admit, this deck was pretty streamlined by a committed pilot. It can kill turn 4-5. Generally speaking though its not very interactive on either side. Game 1 was an easy turn 4 kill. Game 2 he got skite into the mix, we grinded, and it just was not enough to get him down. Game 3 he got me down to 4 cards int he library. I was 1 swing away to kill him off, just need 1 extra point of damage. I need to top deck a pump, and I only had 1 pump left in the 4 remaining cards. Of course, I didnt get it, and 2 turns after, it was game. I feel that overall, the mill deck is still far weaker against UG Infect. But sometimes the heart of the cards is just not there.
Round 3: Bloom Titan: 1-2: I have mixed experiences with this deck, but today was obnoxiously horrible. Game 1 was a pretty easy win, he had a near perfect hand and just needed a land. Never got it, and I got it. Game 2.....turn 1 kill. Literally. I didnt even draw a card. Game 3, turn 3 kill after I mulled to a weak 6. I dont even want to discuss bloom titan. lol
Round 4: G/W Elves: 2-0: An unskilled pilot made this matchup unfair. Not much to say here other than it was a massacre.
All in all, I think the SB works. Though I feel as though I want to add a 3rd dispel, as it worked so well vs CC. Though I guess Ill have to see how prevalent it becomes. I also want to remove a 4th claim, for a second recall. Recall just has such a negative effect vs affinity.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
There is also some tricky interactions when Hive Mind is on the board and they cast a pact. If they cast any pact you can announce that you wish to retain priority with your copy of the pact on the stack, then Spell Pierce the copy. They will copy your Spell Pierce, but if you have 2 open mana you can pay the cost. Of course you fail to pay for Spell Pierce that you cast, since it was targeting your copy. The copy of the pact will get countered and you won't die on your turn. Most of the time if you have Spell Pierce in hand, you would just counter the Hive Mind itself, but you can't always do that if they have enough mana to pay for the Spell Pierce.
Similarly, if they cast Slaughter Pact on one of your creatures, while Hive Mind is on the board, you can announce that you wish to retain priority with the copy targeting the same creature on the stack, and cast Apostle's Blessing on your creature giving it protection from black. Both Slaughter Pact and the copy will get countered on resolution, and you get to live for another turn.
Getting beaten on turn 1 was rough though, I guess they cast Amulet of Vigor with a Simian Spirit Guide and went to town with bounce lands and Summer Bloom lol.
I know the vines trick, as well, but I cant do it if I didnt even start my turn 1 yet. lol
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver