If Tasigur isn't played that list could easily play Dark Confidant
I would love to play Bob, but Tasigur is the issue, like you are saying. I am tempted to still play Bob along Tasigur actually. Tasigur is after all a great card going onward for which reason I think people should play it.
So this post is probably going to go against people’s preferences but from my testing, this is what I have concluded. With the printing of Fatal Push, I thought the deck can be lower to the ground and run Dark Confidant. My list ran 3 Pushes, 3 Confidant, 2 Rhinos, 2 Decays, 3 Paths, 1 Pulse, 3 Lillys. I literally could not beat infect or affinity with that list. It might be just me but I do not like Dark Confidant in Abzan. The curve of 3 drops is too high and bolting myself is a death sentence. Even against infect, it got to the point in some games where Hierarch could have swung for lethal with some pump spells.
That being said, I like Grim Flayer a lot in the deck. Like A LOT. It digs for your answers while also providing a decent clock. People make a huge deal about hitting delirium but in practice, you can get in for 2 easily, mill, and then hit delirium on his own. He literally enables himself.
Following suit, I think I am also going to keep Noble Hierarchs (I know.. I know..). My current list has 3 Hierarchs, 3 Grim Flayers and no cute artifacts to mill over like Baubles. Flayer is a fine card on his own that naturally grows himself and the exalted that hierarch provides is really nice. Also, if Push does become a real card, having a Hierarch eat a push is awesome. Because that way, it’s one less answer to our Flayers/ Goyfs/ Scoozes/ Rhinos. Having Hierarchs in our deck also increases our creature count and enables delirium easier.
In regards to sideboarding, from what I’ve heard, Dredge is still going to be a deck, but not tier 1. I’ll probably cut the endless amount of dredge hate and go with more of an anti tron/ valakut package. The way the meta goes, Aggro will probably die down, midrange will rise, which will in turn, cause in increase in Tron and Scapeshift variants. Sad to say, but I think the Fulminator Mages are coming back in. Before, I felt like Fulminators were too slow against tron. Plus, since it was an aggro heavy meta, you can just hope to dodge those respective matchups. Now, I don’t think we can dodge Urza’s Tower.dec. That being said, Noble Hierarchs can power out turn 2 Fulminators which is REALLY good. When I previously ran Fulminators, I didn’t have a mana dork and always came out turn 3, which can be too slow on the draw. Now with Hierarchs, they can kind of work together and make each other worth running.
For Fatal Push, I think the final count should be a 2 of in my opinion. I really like having 2 Maelstrom Pulse as a true catch all in an open meta. However, if you are in a heavy aggro meta, I can see cutting a Pulse and going up to 3. I am cutting a Decay and a Path for the 2 Pushes. The card has been good. Like really good. However, having multiples leaves you open to too many dead cards against various matchups. I would venture a guess that people are going to meta against Pushes and run cards like Tasigur, Anglers, Hooting Mandrills, etc. weakening the card. This could all be over thinking it, but I think I’ll start off with 2 Fatal Pushes and go from there.
Now for Siege Rhino. Unless Fatal Push truly drives <5 drops out (I highly doubt that), I’m still going with 3 Siege Rhinos. It gives the deck reach, a big body, and tramples. Rhinos have gotten me out of so many holes, I refuse to cut them until they really are bad in the meta. And even if it dies on the way out, draining for 3 can’t be underestimated. That being said, if Push is as good as we think it is, I can see cutting 1 Rhino for a Tasigur. Until then, 3 Rhinos for me.
Overall, my changes will be very minimal, once Aether Revolt is released. At least for the main deck. I have been winning a lot with the deck and I don’t see why I should make drastic changes unless otherwise needed. I will go -1 Abrupt Decay, -1 Path to Exile, +2 Fatal Push. My sideboard will be reconfigured a lot since Dredge will hopefully die off. Here will be my list post Aether Revolt.
My sideboard changes are
-1 Grafdigger’s Cage
-1 Lost Legacy
-1 Pithing Needle
-2 Nihil Spellbomb
+3 Fulminator Mage
+2 Surgical Extraction
I really like the Fulminator + Surgical plan against tron as well as Valakut. If dredge is around, it will be a lot slower, so Surgicalling an Amalgam seems great as you can totally block and race a few Bloodghasts/ Narcomoebas. The only iffy slots in my board would be Flaying Tendrils and Shriekmaw. Flaying Tendrils is great as it provides the deck a 3 mana wrath. If dredge truly dies out, I can see running Drown in Sorrow instead to get the scry as the exiling isn’t necessary (unless Abzan Company comes back). That being said, if there’s less merfolk/ elves/ affinity/ etc. then I can see cutting it for something else.
Shriekmaw is really for Bant Eldrazi that can be brought in against Death’s Shadow Aggro, Infect, Burn, Jund, Abzan. We’ll see how the meta shapes up to see which decks are abundant and go from there. All in all, the sideboard will of course be up in the air until the meta settles down a little bit.
So these are my overall thoughts and what I’ll sleeve up for Side events at GP San Jose. I’ll post any updates if I get anymore from my testing, but overall, I really like my list from testing. I just wish Fatal Push wasn’t a 6$ uncommon… lol
So this post is probably going to go against people’s preferences but from my testing, this is what I have concluded. With the printing of Fatal Push, I thought the deck can be lower to the ground and run Dark Confidant. My list ran 3 Pushes, 3 Confidant, 2 Rhinos, 2 Decays, 3 Paths, 1 Pulse, 3 Lillys. I literally could not beat infect or affinity with that list. It might be just me but I do not like Dark Confidant in Abzan. The curve of 3 drops is too high and bolting myself is a death sentence. Even against infect, it got to the point in some games where Hierarch could have swung for lethal with some pump spells.
I can see your issue. Bob is hard to enable in Junk, but remember, Junk has been running this kind of approach right before Siege Rhino has been printed. Here is a sample list before Siege Rhino:
This list runs 1 4-drop and 10 3-drops. To be fair though, you'd have to link this to the meta which was present at that time, so this may not say something meaningful, but I wanted to state it nevertheless
In regards to sideboarding, from what I’ve heard, Dredge is still going to be a deck, but not tier 1. I’ll probably cut the endless amount of dredge hate and go with more of an anti tron/ valakut package. The way the meta goes, Aggro will probably die down, midrange will rise, which will in turn, cause in increase in Tron and Scapeshift variants. Sad to say, but I think the Fulminator Mages are coming back in. Before, I felt like Fulminators were too slow against tron. Plus, since it was an aggro heavy meta, you can just hope to dodge those respective matchups. Now, I don’t think we can dodge Urza’s Tower.dec. That being said, Noble Hierarchs can power out turn 2 Fulminators which is REALLY good. When I previously ran Fulminators, I didn’t have a mana dork and always came out turn 3, which can be too slow on the draw. Now with Hierarchs, they can kind of work together and make each other worth running.
Turn 2 Fulminator is an argument. But I am very hesitant to run Nobles in Junk, Turn 2 Fulminator must be insanely good and the real way to beat Tron in order to make me run Nobles. Concerning Dredge though, I think its gonna be Tier 2 at best. Golgari Grave troll let them hard cast an incredibly big threat, which shined especially against decks like us. Not having the option doing this anymore, will really weaken it significantly I think. Its no mistake to still prepare for it though and see what happens.
Now for Siege Rhino. Unless Fatal Push truly drives <5 drops out (I highly doubt that), I’m still going with 3 Siege Rhinos. It gives the deck reach, a big body, and tramples. Rhinos have gotten me out of so many holes, I refuse to cut them until they really are bad in the meta. And even if it dies on the way out, draining for 3 can’t be underestimated. That being said, if Push is as good as we think it is, I can see cutting 1 Rhino for a Tasigur. Until then, 3 Rhinos for me.
Overall, my changes will be very minimal, once Aether Revolt is released. At least for the main deck. I have been winning a lot with the deck and I don’t see why I should make drastic changes unless otherwise needed. I will go -1 Abrupt Decay, -1 Path to Exile, +2 Fatal Push. My sideboard will be reconfigured a lot since Dredge will hopefully die off. Here will be my list post Aether Revolt.
I am personally not sold on Rhino, I have mixed feelings about him. In a slower metagame, which I expect, it will be better though. Won't be a mistake to run him for shure.
I really like the Fulminator + Surgical plan against tron as well as Valakut.
Surgical as GY hate on its own is fine. But I have said it before, do you really think Fulminator + Surgical will align consistantly against Tron/Valakut decks? In theory it sounds like a good plan, but needing a 2 card combo in order to beat a very bad MU doesn't feel like a good option. Its neither happening often enough nor is it helping for other MUs. I'd rather free up some SB slots and focus on something different.
So this post is probably going to go against people’s preferences but from my testing, this is what I have concluded. With the printing of Fatal Push, I thought the deck can be lower to the ground and run Dark Confidant. My list ran 3 Pushes, 3 Confidant, 2 Rhinos, 2 Decays, 3 Paths, 1 Pulse, 3 Lillys. I literally could not beat infect or affinity with that list. It might be just me but I do not like Dark Confidant in Abzan. The curve of 3 drops is too high and bolting myself is a death sentence. Even against infect, it got to the point in some games where Hierarch could have swung for lethal with some pump spells.
Are you sure this isn't just a matter of perception? Compare an Abzan list like this to a stock Jund list like this. The difference in average CMC here is about 0.03 which is almost nothing at all. It might just be that Tasigur is a good enough reason not to play Bob, but I don't think he'd be all that bad. He does compete with Flayer at the 2 CMC slot but they actually work well together too (since you can use Flayer to set up Bob draws and take less damage).
The real issue here might be still Abzan's closing speed, which is still slightly slower than Jund's (no Bolt and no Raging Ravine), which will end up costing more life overall since Bob stays around for longer.
So this post is probably going to go against people’s preferences but from my testing, this is what I have concluded. With the printing of Fatal Push, I thought the deck can be lower to the ground and run Dark Confidant. My list ran 3 Pushes, 3 Confidant, 2 Rhinos, 2 Decays, 3 Paths, 1 Pulse, 3 Lillys. I literally could not beat infect or affinity with that list. It might be just me but I do not like Dark Confidant in Abzan. The curve of 3 drops is too high and bolting myself is a death sentence. Even against infect, it got to the point in some games where Hierarch could have swung for lethal with some pump spells.
Are you sure this isn't just a matter of perception? Compare an Abzan list like this to a stock Jund list like this. The difference in average CMC here is about 0.03 which is almost nothing at all. It might just be that Tasigur is a good enough reason not to play Bob, but I don't think he'd be all that bad. He does compete with Flayer at the 2 CMC slot but they actually work well together too (since you can use Flayer to set up Bob draws and take less damage).
The real issue here might be still Abzan's closing speed, which is still slightly slower than Jund's (no Bolt and no Raging Ravine), which will end up costing more life overall since Bob stays around for longer.
I generally agree with that. However, I think its not that easy and I want to add something. Consider two decks, one of each only plays 2 drops, and the other one plays half 1 drops and half 3 drops. Technically, like you said, they have the same average CMC of 2. If you know have a bunch of triggers for bob, surely you will, over time, take the same amount of dmg from him for each deck. But if you only have 1-2 triggers (lets remove lands here for simplificaion), the ceiling is higher in the second list. It could be that you take 6 dmg from it by 2 triggers. And the problem is, the average CMC does not count when looking at an individual case. Because right now, you are above CMC, which may come back down later, but the thing is, you take the dmg right away and which leads to a momentarily high average CMC.
Of course this examples aren't representative, since you have basically the same chance only taking 2 dmg from the second decklist by 2 triggers. But this all means that the life dmg taken from bob is much more fluctuating in Abzan lists than in Jund lists, which may lead to awkward situations where getting hit by 3 maybe twice in a row does feel very bad. Momentarily, you just don't feel the similar average CMC here. In Jund however, most of the time you can somewhat expect to be hit by 2 dmg.
One thing also to note is that Abzan tends or lets say wants to run more 4 drops or bigger stuff, wheras Jund generally only runs 2 4-drops maximum.
I feel like both wouldn't be a bad thing if you have the space for it. Idk if you want to have a full 4 of each, but as has been stated above the two do play very well together. I think the best argument AGAINST playing Bob right now is that Tasigur is poised to be a very good card in the upcoming meta, and he's a risky proposition alongside Bob.
One thing I think should be mentioned is that Abzan has a lot of potential lifegain outlets. In addition to the scooze and Kalitas which Jund usually runs we also have shambling vent along with CB, Kitchen finks, and siege rhino if we choose to run them. I think that as long as we don't get too greedy w/ the high cmc cards we probably have enough lifegain to offset Bob damage.
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My Decks:
UG Merfolk RG 8-Whack BWG Abzan midrange GRB Living End UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin" RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!" BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
I actually think renegade rallier has some potential. Imagine bringing back a goyf with it, and you can always bring back a land like a manland which died. It costing 3 makes it hard to implement though, I think he would be better along Noble Hierach. I think its an interesting card for sure.
As a guy who uses several non-mainstream cards, I wouldn't ridicule either Eternal Witness or Renegade Rallier, but I don't think either really fits the game-plan here.
Both are low-impact on their own - both die to Shock, for Pete's sake - and Junk doesn't usually self-mill to ensure there are good targets. If either were two-CMC, it might be different, but three-CMC is a pretty big deal. If either had Flash, it might be different. If either were two-CMC AND had Flash, no wait, that would be broken. . .
E-Wit has broader versatility and is very good in certain kinds of decks, i.e. Gifts decks, but what spell in Junk is so important that one wouldn't be better off with some other high-impact card instead of a puny critter to retrieve that spell?
What creature in Junk is so important that one wouldn't want another high-impact creature instead of Rallier? Especially given that there won't always be a creature to retrieve. Does one pitch a hand with Rallier as the only creature?
Rex is probably more important to me than anything in standard Abzan is to standard-Abzan players and I don't run E-Wit, never have. E-Wit is certainly nearer to play-ability in my view, but I don't feel compelled to try it in the Rock.
I saw some lists that were running up to 7 cards between path and fatal push. I think that is way too much. I think that just weakens the deck too much versus things that have no creatures to kill. I also think people are overreacting to fatal push. Yes it is good, but its not shaking up the format to the point we want to fundamentally change how our deck is built. It gives another color unconditional removal against most of our threats. Here is where I am going to start in the new meta. No sideboard listed because we really don't know how things are going to shake out just yet. I understand some peoples worry about running bob in this deck, but the curve really isn't different than Junds. Tasigur is a nonbo with bob but he is just so good I am willing to take that risk for the single one.
I generally agree with that. However, I think its not that easy and I want to add something. Consider two decks, one of each only plays 2 drops, and the other one plays half 1 drops and half 3 drops. Technically, like you said, they have the same average CMC of 2. If you know have a bunch of triggers for bob, surely you will, over time, take the same amount of dmg from him for each deck. But if you only have 1-2 triggers (lets remove lands here for simplificaion), the ceiling is higher in the second list. It could be that you take 6 dmg from it by 2 triggers. And the problem is, the average CMC does not count when looking at an individual case. Because right now, you are above CMC, which may come back down later, but the thing is, you take the dmg right away and which leads to a momentarily high average CMC.
Of course this examples aren't representative, since you have basically the same chance only taking 2 dmg from the second decklist by 2 triggers. But this all means that the life dmg taken from bob is much more fluctuating in Abzan lists than in Jund lists, which may lead to awkward situations where getting hit by 3 maybe twice in a row does feel very bad. Momentarily, you just don't feel the similar average CMC here. In Jund however, most of the time you can somewhat expect to be hit by 2 dmg.
One thing also to note is that Abzan tends or lets say wants to run more 4 drops or bigger stuff, wheras Jund generally only runs 2 4-drops maximum.
Good points! Variance is definitely a factor here, and it does hurt Bob's playability a little bit. It will be interesting to see where Abzan ends up - both on the Bob vs Flayer (or both) matter, whether Noble Hierarch is still worth it, the optimal split of Path/Push, etc. Maybe it's going to be settled after the meta settles down.
I saw some lists that were running up to 7 cards between path and fatal push. I think that is way too much. I think that just weakens the deck too much versus things that have no creatures to kill. I also think people are overreacting to fatal push. Yes it is good, but its not shaking up the format to the point we want to fundamentally change how our deck is built. It gives another color unconditional removal against most of our threats. Here is where I am going to start in the new meta. No sideboard listed because we really don't know how things are going to shake out just yet. I understand some peoples worry about running bob in this deck, but the curve really isn't different than Junds. Tasigur is a nonbo with bob but he is just so good I am willing to take that risk for the single one.
In the pre-Kalitas era, people often ran a single Banana King in Jund along with for copies of Bob.
Four copies of Fatal Push will certainly feel very, very bad against Tron and some in other match-ups. I hesitate to commit to even three even in the no-Path-for-me Rock deck.
Shurly you keep the abruct decays and malestorm pulses where they are and go 4 fatal push and 2 paths? Or a 3/3 split. Othervice you loose to random ensnaring bridges or something else. You have enough spot removal, but push kills manadorks in a way that path does not.
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I have dyslexia, no I am not going to spell check for you, yes you have to live with the horrors of it.
I actually think renegade rallier has some potential. Imagine bringing back a goyf with it, and you can always bring back a land like a manland which died. It costing 3 makes it hard to implement though, I think he would be better along Noble Hierach. I think its an interesting card for sure.
Renegade is good for blink decks, not Junk. Instead of playing renegade why not just play whatever card you are expecting him to be? This way you can avoid the fate of having to interact with the Gy for card AV, you can also avoid having to trigger revolt, and you can avoid the card being a 3/2 for 3 when you have no other options.... however in something like g/w bears, amen.
My question is... ¿Vault of the Archangel or Gavony Township?. Gavony give us more punch, but Vault with Deadtouch and Lifelink buff... ¿3 Abrupt Decay and 2 Fatal push or 3 Fatal Push and 2 Abrupt Decay?. Fatal Push is a great 1cmc removal for sure, but Decay remove Lilianas, Cranials, Ascension Pyromancer.... Not sure if we should play only 2 Decay. ¿Thoughts?
Both go well with lingering souls, but if you play one of them, play definitely 4 Lingering. You generally want to play 4 anyway. I think Gavony is a bit grindier and better, Vault does provide some great utility removal against pesky stuff like Reality Smasher for example.
I think 2 Decay, 3 Push, 3 Path and 1 Maelstrom is the correct way for now. And from testing we'll see where it goes.
So this is my plan. I feel like a 3/3 split of push and path will be a good place to start as any fewer paths and we will have trouble with tasigurs and wurmcoils. And I am going for Flayers because I don't like the idea of bob with 2 Tasigurs and in the Tron MU flayer can dig for sideboard answers faster than bob.
I like your list, its similar to my approach with the new removal. As for the SB I am not yet settled on a plan yet, so I can't really tell anything here.
I actually think renegade rallier has some potential. Imagine bringing back a goyf with it, and you can always bring back a land like a manland which died. It costing 3 makes it hard to implement though, I think he would be better along Noble Hierach. I think its an interesting card for sure.
Renegade is good for blink decks, not Junk. Instead of playing renegade why not just play whatever card you are expecting him to be? This way you can avoid the fate of having to interact with the Gy for card AV, you can also avoid having to trigger revolt, and you can avoid the card being a 3/2 for 3 when you have no other options.... however in something like g/w bears, amen.
I guess you are right. I still think, if it works, its great value, but surely better suited in blink decks, haven't thought about that.
Bitterblossoms and Dark confidant could also lead to some serious damage to yourself
Genuflect when you speak Rex's name.
The Rock does not roll without Rex. Bob is currently a three-of and may go down or out. I may try a Flayer build or even some wacky things like Elves of Deep Shadow or Traverse the Ulvenwald.
But Rex shall remain.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I would love to play Bob, but Tasigur is the issue, like you are saying. I am tempted to still play Bob along Tasigur actually. Tasigur is after all a great card going onward for which reason I think people should play it.
That being said, I like Grim Flayer a lot in the deck. Like A LOT. It digs for your answers while also providing a decent clock. People make a huge deal about hitting delirium but in practice, you can get in for 2 easily, mill, and then hit delirium on his own. He literally enables himself.
Following suit, I think I am also going to keep Noble Hierarchs (I know.. I know..). My current list has 3 Hierarchs, 3 Grim Flayers and no cute artifacts to mill over like Baubles. Flayer is a fine card on his own that naturally grows himself and the exalted that hierarch provides is really nice. Also, if Push does become a real card, having a Hierarch eat a push is awesome. Because that way, it’s one less answer to our Flayers/ Goyfs/ Scoozes/ Rhinos. Having Hierarchs in our deck also increases our creature count and enables delirium easier.
In regards to sideboarding, from what I’ve heard, Dredge is still going to be a deck, but not tier 1. I’ll probably cut the endless amount of dredge hate and go with more of an anti tron/ valakut package. The way the meta goes, Aggro will probably die down, midrange will rise, which will in turn, cause in increase in Tron and Scapeshift variants. Sad to say, but I think the Fulminator Mages are coming back in. Before, I felt like Fulminators were too slow against tron. Plus, since it was an aggro heavy meta, you can just hope to dodge those respective matchups. Now, I don’t think we can dodge Urza’s Tower.dec. That being said, Noble Hierarchs can power out turn 2 Fulminators which is REALLY good. When I previously ran Fulminators, I didn’t have a mana dork and always came out turn 3, which can be too slow on the draw. Now with Hierarchs, they can kind of work together and make each other worth running.
For Fatal Push, I think the final count should be a 2 of in my opinion. I really like having 2 Maelstrom Pulse as a true catch all in an open meta. However, if you are in a heavy aggro meta, I can see cutting a Pulse and going up to 3. I am cutting a Decay and a Path for the 2 Pushes. The card has been good. Like really good. However, having multiples leaves you open to too many dead cards against various matchups. I would venture a guess that people are going to meta against Pushes and run cards like Tasigur, Anglers, Hooting Mandrills, etc. weakening the card. This could all be over thinking it, but I think I’ll start off with 2 Fatal Pushes and go from there.
Now for Siege Rhino. Unless Fatal Push truly drives <5 drops out (I highly doubt that), I’m still going with 3 Siege Rhinos. It gives the deck reach, a big body, and tramples. Rhinos have gotten me out of so many holes, I refuse to cut them until they really are bad in the meta. And even if it dies on the way out, draining for 3 can’t be underestimated. That being said, if Push is as good as we think it is, I can see cutting 1 Rhino for a Tasigur. Until then, 3 Rhinos for me.
Overall, my changes will be very minimal, once Aether Revolt is released. At least for the main deck. I have been winning a lot with the deck and I don’t see why I should make drastic changes unless otherwise needed. I will go -1 Abrupt Decay, -1 Path to Exile, +2 Fatal Push. My sideboard will be reconfigured a lot since Dredge will hopefully die off. Here will be my list post Aether Revolt.
4 Blooming Marsh
1 Forest
1 Godless Shrine
2 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
2 Shambling Vent
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Swamp
1 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
Creatures (15)
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Grim Flayer
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Siege Rhino
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
4 Lingering Souls
2 Maelstrom Pulse
Instant (7)
2 Fatal Push
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Damnation
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Flaying Tendrils
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Shriekmaw
2 Stony Silence
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
My sideboard changes are
-1 Grafdigger’s Cage
-1 Lost Legacy
-1 Pithing Needle
-2 Nihil Spellbomb
+3 Fulminator Mage
+2 Surgical Extraction
I really like the Fulminator + Surgical plan against tron as well as Valakut. If dredge is around, it will be a lot slower, so Surgicalling an Amalgam seems great as you can totally block and race a few Bloodghasts/ Narcomoebas. The only iffy slots in my board would be Flaying Tendrils and Shriekmaw. Flaying Tendrils is great as it provides the deck a 3 mana wrath. If dredge truly dies out, I can see running Drown in Sorrow instead to get the scry as the exiling isn’t necessary (unless Abzan Company comes back). That being said, if there’s less merfolk/ elves/ affinity/ etc. then I can see cutting it for something else.
Shriekmaw is really for Bant Eldrazi that can be brought in against Death’s Shadow Aggro, Infect, Burn, Jund, Abzan. We’ll see how the meta shapes up to see which decks are abundant and go from there. All in all, the sideboard will of course be up in the air until the meta settles down a little bit.
So these are my overall thoughts and what I’ll sleeve up for Side events at GP San Jose. I’ll post any updates if I get anymore from my testing, but overall, I really like my list from testing. I just wish Fatal Push wasn’t a 6$ uncommon… lol
Are you sure this isn't just a matter of perception? Compare an Abzan list like this to a stock Jund list like this. The difference in average CMC here is about 0.03 which is almost nothing at all. It might just be that Tasigur is a good enough reason not to play Bob, but I don't think he'd be all that bad. He does compete with Flayer at the 2 CMC slot but they actually work well together too (since you can use Flayer to set up Bob draws and take less damage).
The real issue here might be still Abzan's closing speed, which is still slightly slower than Jund's (no Bolt and no Raging Ravine), which will end up costing more life overall since Bob stays around for longer.
I generally agree with that. However, I think its not that easy and I want to add something. Consider two decks, one of each only plays 2 drops, and the other one plays half 1 drops and half 3 drops. Technically, like you said, they have the same average CMC of 2. If you know have a bunch of triggers for bob, surely you will, over time, take the same amount of dmg from him for each deck. But if you only have 1-2 triggers (lets remove lands here for simplificaion), the ceiling is higher in the second list. It could be that you take 6 dmg from it by 2 triggers. And the problem is, the average CMC does not count when looking at an individual case. Because right now, you are above CMC, which may come back down later, but the thing is, you take the dmg right away and which leads to a momentarily high average CMC.
Of course this examples aren't representative, since you have basically the same chance only taking 2 dmg from the second decklist by 2 triggers. But this all means that the life dmg taken from bob is much more fluctuating in Abzan lists than in Jund lists, which may lead to awkward situations where getting hit by 3 maybe twice in a row does feel very bad. Momentarily, you just don't feel the similar average CMC here. In Jund however, most of the time you can somewhat expect to be hit by 2 dmg.
One thing also to note is that Abzan tends or lets say wants to run more 4 drops or bigger stuff, wheras Jund generally only runs 2 4-drops maximum.
I for one can't tell. There are reasons pro and against Bob. But definitely one of those 2 for sure.
One thing I think should be mentioned is that Abzan has a lot of potential lifegain outlets. In addition to the scooze and Kalitas which Jund usually runs we also have shambling vent along with CB, Kitchen finks, and siege rhino if we choose to run them. I think that as long as we don't get too greedy w/ the high cmc cards we probably have enough lifegain to offset Bob damage.
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
Bant Eldrazi
Grixis Control
U/G Infect
David Ochoa: "Mono-bacon!..."
As a guy who uses several non-mainstream cards, I wouldn't ridicule either Eternal Witness or Renegade Rallier, but I don't think either really fits the game-plan here.
Both are low-impact on their own - both die to Shock, for Pete's sake - and Junk doesn't usually self-mill to ensure there are good targets. If either were two-CMC, it might be different, but three-CMC is a pretty big deal. If either had Flash, it might be different. If either were two-CMC AND had Flash, no wait, that would be broken. . .
E-Wit has broader versatility and is very good in certain kinds of decks, i.e. Gifts decks, but what spell in Junk is so important that one wouldn't be better off with some other high-impact card instead of a puny critter to retrieve that spell?
What creature in Junk is so important that one wouldn't want another high-impact creature instead of Rallier? Especially given that there won't always be a creature to retrieve. Does one pitch a hand with Rallier as the only creature?
Rex is probably more important to me than anything in standard Abzan is to standard-Abzan players and I don't run E-Wit, never have. E-Wit is certainly nearer to play-ability in my view, but I don't feel compelled to try it in the Rock.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
4 Blooming Marsh
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flat
1 Godless Shrine
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Shambling Vent
1 Gavony Township
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Grim Flayer
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3 Path to Exile
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Lingering Souls
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana of the Last Hope
Good points! Variance is definitely a factor here, and it does hurt Bob's playability a little bit. It will be interesting to see where Abzan ends up - both on the Bob vs Flayer (or both) matter, whether Noble Hierarch is still worth it, the optimal split of Path/Push, etc. Maybe it's going to be settled after the meta settles down.
In the pre-Kalitas era, people often ran a single Banana King in Jund along with for copies of Bob.
Four copies of Fatal Push will certainly feel very, very bad against Tron and some in other match-ups. I hesitate to commit to even three even in the no-Path-for-me Rock deck.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Both go well with lingering souls, but if you play one of them, play definitely 4 Lingering. You generally want to play 4 anyway. I think Gavony is a bit grindier and better, Vault does provide some great utility removal against pesky stuff like Reality Smasher for example.
I think 2 Decay, 3 Push, 3 Path and 1 Maelstrom is the correct way for now. And from testing we'll see where it goes.
I like your list, its similar to my approach with the new removal. As for the SB I am not yet settled on a plan yet, so I can't really tell anything here.
I guess you are right. I still think, if it works, its great value, but surely better suited in blink decks, haven't thought about that.