I'm just getting into this deck, and I've seen a lot of lists running noble hierarch eschewing bob in the process. I don't understand why, we can top out at three mana (bob seems way better than tasigur and murderous cut), and the ramp from hierarch isn't super relevant for us, unless I'm missing something.
I don't think saying that '[the decks running noble are omitting bob because of noble]' is accurate. I'm sure there are many reasons why bob is excluded but I think the biggest reason is clogging up the '2 drop' slot. Having 3-4x Bob, 4x Tarmo, 1-2x SCooze, 3-4x Grim Flayer, 1-2 Collective Brutality, 2-4 Abrupt Decay, etc, etc. is a lot of '2 drops'. Noble Hierarch:
- Is Blood moon defense
- Gets out a Siege Rhino on turn 3 which helps us switch agro quickly if we need to
- Gets out LoTV on turn 2, for some decks this is back breaking
- Exalted ability lets us swing into same toughness creatures and trade favorably, it lets our baby Flayers swing for 3 dmg and trigger card filtering, as well as our Shambling vents
- Prevents decks from being able to cut us off white easily
- Gets under Ensnaring bridge
- As a corner case it helps us activate Spellskite if you choose to run that in SB
and I'm sure I'm missing a few, hah.
With all this said I still think Dark Confidant and Noble are personal preference and whatever mix of either/or is not correct or incorrect, run what works for you and adapt as you learn.
Ayiluss: I am aware how important is Goyf in these decks, I was just toying around with Traverse amd Grim Flayer synergizes more. I am not even claiming this is better that regular Abzan.
Ayiluss: I am aware how important is Goyf in these decks, I was just toying around with Traverse amd Grim Flayer synergizes more. I am not even claiming this is better that regular Abzan.
I cant speak for Ayiluss but I don't think he was making any major statement, just that a lot of the long time Abzan players are just somewhat tired of people posting in the thread about budget cards when in the primer it refers directly to budget cards not belonging in this thread. I think we all want this to be high quality information exchange that we can benefit from, rather than telling another person that they need goyfs, again, and again.
Obviously 'spice' and 'brews' are encouraged but if you think that goyf's are ever excluded from this deck you are immediately talking about a different deck.
It is difficult to explain why Noble Hierarch is so good to folks who have not played her, she is not categorically a bad top deck late in the game either. But wanted to add to your list that Hierarch also adds to a tendency to get a creature in your graveyard early against removal decks, so thus the synergy with Flayer and Goyf... bolt the Hierarch=a more persistent exalted for your Goyf.
It is difficult to explain why Noble Hierarch is so good to folks who have not played her, she is not categorically a bad top deck late in the game either. But wanted to add to your list that Hierarch also adds to a tendency to get a creature in your graveyard early against removal decks, so thus the synergy with Flayer and Goyf... bolt the Hierarch=a more persistent exalted for your Goyf.
This is very true, I have had many games where I turn 1 Noble and she gets bolted only for my turn two to follow up with a (bigger than usual) Goyf or a 2/2 Flayer that will now survive because the player does not have Bolt any longer.
I have recently moved and there are a lot of tron players here and I was wondering if anyone has found a good way to deal with tron. I am still playing the siege rhino version of the deck so am a bit slower, I am just after some advice on cards to help against tron. So far pithing needle has acted great so far but I feel like some luck was involved in that, they played O-stone without activation mana so I could needle it then ult Liliana a few turns later and the second boarded game I thoughtseized them and saw 3 threats, one land and ancient stirrings, so I needled the map they had played and they didn't draw enough lands before goyf got them. So has anyone found a concrete strategy to help even the tron MU?
Tron is one of our hardest match-ups think its somewhere around 20-80% them (maybe 30-70%). Even if you disrupt them all game they will eventually just pull ahead so you need to stick an early threat as well (Tarmogoyf, Grim Flayer). Best plan is land disruption in the form of Fulminator Mage (3 of in my SB), hand disruption in the form of Thoughtseize (3 of in my MB). I also run a one-of Surgical Extraction in my SB and I bring this in vs Tron: the dream is destroy a Tron piece and then surgical it but its a hail-marry plan, although this matchup is so bad that I'll take as many hail-marry's as I can. Oh also Stony silence shut off all thier mana rocks and cantrips as well as Ostone
If you are dealing with a high number of tron players in your local meta it might just be best to change decks.
As EYEKarus said I just wanted to point out that this is a threat for competitive Junk midrange deck and discussions about budget lists without cards like Tarmogoyf don't belong here but there is budget forum for these. I didn't want to sound rude but after some time you really get tired of budget related questions in this threat.
Yeah I get it, just wanted to point out I didn't even considered not playing Goyf as a budget proposition. Sorry for the inconvenience.
So not true junk. But It says BG in title. I don't play against a lot of tron but deck I've been having a lot of luck with. My meta is mainly midrange, agro and blue decks.
I think Siege Rhino is better card than Grim Flayer anyway. I don't think Flayer is very good although he could be decent against some decks.
grim flayer is good in infect, tron and scapeshift. siege rhino is good in burn, bant eldrazi, grixis control. i think eldrazi is on the rise. eldrazi is hard to beat with our current main deck.
So on the subject of flayer I really have an itch to play flayer, Tarmo, and Dark confidant all in the same deck, on paper I feel like you get awesome card draw/filtering with a nice array of aggro bodies. Is this a terrible idea? And if so why?
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My Decks:
UG Merfolk RG 8-Whack BWG Abzan midrange GRB Living End UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin" RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!" BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
I think Siege Rhino is better card than Grim Flayer anyway. I don't think Flayer is very good although he could be decent against some decks.
grim flayer is good in infect, tron and scapeshift. siege rhino is good in burn, bant eldrazi, grixis control. i think eldrazi is on the rise. eldrazi is hard to beat with our current main deck.
I think Siege Rhino is better card than Grim Flayer anyway. I don't think Flayer is very good although he could be decent against some decks.
grim flayer is good in infect, tron and scapeshift. siege rhino is good in burn, bant eldrazi, grixis control. i think eldrazi is on the rise. eldrazi is hard to beat with our current main deck.
Did you mean against?
I think the answer to this question is insanley obvious, but maybe I'm wrong so... Yes, yes he did mean that Mastodon.
So on the subject of flayer I really have an itch to play flayer, Tarmo, and Dark confidant all in the same deck, on paper I feel like you get awesome card draw/filtering with a nice array of aggro bodies. Is this a terrible idea? And if so why?
I don't think Grim or Rhino are mutually exclusive, you can run both. Obviousley the deck has some range as far as card selection and any one way to build it is not more right or wrong than any other way. I think the build largely depends on your play style and other supporting cards. That being said, in the context of running 'all' of the two drops:
Reasons to play Scavenging ooze over other 2 drops:
- You need GY interaction immediatley
Reasons not to play Scavenging ooze over other 2 drops:
- Scavenging Ooze is a high value card so we don't want to slam it down early because its extremely vulnerable so we would rather drop any of our other two drops
Reasons to play Tarmogoyf over other 2 drops:
- Maybe you fetched and hand ripped on turn 1 and you can stick a 3/4 or a 4/5 tarmo on turn 2, yeah, seems good.
- You have a Scooze in hand
- Clock, clock, clock.
Reasons to not play Tarmogoyf over other 2 drops:
- Good chance OPP still have removal that can kill your tarmo in the early game so might be best to run out other lightning rods before the big boy
- You have a Bob in hand
- You have a flayer in hand
Reasons to play Dark confidant over other 2 drops:
- Card draw A S A P
- Hes a 'must' answer, that means your OPP has to make bad removal decisions early game to stop him immediately - like, pathing early on, or taking dmg from a dismember, etc.
Reasons not to play Dark Confidant over other 2 drops:
- You have a Grim Flayer in hand
Reasons to play Grim Flayer over other 2 drops:
- Need to get delirium online asap, card filtering active asap as well
- He is a great lightning rod for tarmo and other grims because he is also a must answer / must block.
- Starts the clock 'reasonably' better or equal to other two drops
Reasons not to play Grim Flayer over other 2 drops:
-
It's a very loose flow chart and I'm sure there will be some disagreements but in my experience this is what I have found. I'm almost always wanting to drop grim on turn two over any other option (This does not mean it's better than the other cards (its arguably the worst card), just that in the situation of 'turn 2', I want to be dropping grim), having grim set up the next 3 draws, as well as having the potential to influence the next 6 turns is too much of a reward not to play him first. This coupled with the fact that as the game goes on the stakes get higher and the situation gets more volatile, meaning dropping a turn 4 bob, or a turn 4 2/2 Grim is very lack luster when your OPP is doing things like: "Play my second reality smasher, swing for ten...".
Hey, boys, slowly coming back from hiatus. I stopped playing around june
So, is Junk now back to tier 1? What's changed so much? Is Flayer the common card or is bob? Bob wasn't being used in junk for a good while, so why has it changed now?
What is truly the best current, cookie-cutter Junk list look like? Hierarchs, bobs, flayers? It'd really help if you guys could speed me up so I can test it on mtgo
Hey, boys, slowly coming back from hiatus. I stopped playing around june
So, is Junk now back to tier 1? What's changed so much? Is Flayer the common card or is bob? Bob wasn't being used in junk for a good while, so why has it changed now?
What is truly the best current, cookie-cutter Junk list look like? Hierarchs, bobs, flayers? It'd really help if you guys could speed me up so I can test it on mtgo
Hey, boys, slowly coming back from hiatus. I stopped playing around june
So, is Junk now back to tier 1? What's changed so much? Is Flayer the common card or is bob? Bob wasn't being used in junk for a good while, so why has it changed now?
What is truly the best current, cookie-cutter Junk list look like? Hierarchs, bobs, flayers? It'd really help if you guys could speed me up so I can test it on mtgo
I definitely like the mana-base more than before, looks like the Blooming Marsh was a nice addition. I've always been very wary of the leylines, I feel like you need either 4 of them or none, are they truly worth it? What are they optimal against, dredge, the mirror, control decks? Why not spellbomb and rest in peace?
Siege Rhino is such a good card, but it frustrated me in modern, it always felt clunky and stuck in my hands. If the meta has speed up with aggro and combo, why is siege rhino good all of a sudden?
I have a majority of my jund deck foiled, boo to having to purchase some of these other new foil staples. It looks like the new lilly is good as a 1 of, just wanted to make sure the new Chandra wouldn't be the new hotness
Hey, boys, slowly coming back from hiatus. I stopped playing around june
So, is Junk now back to tier 1? What's changed so much? Is Flayer the common card or is bob? Bob wasn't being used in junk for a good while, so why has it changed now?
What is truly the best current, cookie-cutter Junk list look like? Hierarchs, bobs, flayers? It'd really help if you guys could speed me up so I can test it on mtgo
I definitely like the mana-base more than before, looks like the Blooming Marsh was a nice addition. I've always been very wary of the leylines, I feel like you need either 4 of them or none, are they truly worth it? What are they optimal against, dredge, the mirror, control decks? Why not spellbomb and rest in peace?
Siege Rhino is such a good card, but it frustrated me in modern, it always felt clunky and stuck in my hands. If the meta has speed up with aggro and combo, why is siege rhino good all of a sudden?
I have a majority of my jund deck foiled, boo to having to purchase some of these other new foil staples. It looks like the new lilly is good as a 1 of, just wanted to make sure the new Chandra wouldn't be the new hotness
I would suggest getting the new Lili. She is amazing and right I would never leave home without at least 1 copy in my 75 either in Jund or Junk. Blooming Marsh seems good in Junk, could be close to the manabase to go in future. I am also surprized to not see any RIPs, as they are great SB cards against Dredge, but I guess since Dredge is fairly present you gotta dedicate much GY hate anyways to the SB, for which reason Leyline will be better. RIP/Nihil would be better if you only have say 2 slots for GY hate. But probably this is only the case if you don't have much dredge in your meta.
I am curious as well why Siege Rhino is getting popular now, I remember that some people said that its good because it can't get blinked by Eldrazi Displacer, but I don't know myself actually.
And just a sidenote since you mention Chandra, I would not buy her, she is not mandatory or needed in Jund I think, at least not now. Sorry for the short OT.
Hey, boys, slowly coming back from hiatus. I stopped playing around june
So, is Junk now back to tier 1? What's changed so much? Is Flayer the common card or is bob? Bob wasn't being used in junk for a good while, so why has it changed now?
What is truly the best current, cookie-cutter Junk list look like? Hierarchs, bobs, flayers? It'd really help if you guys could speed me up so I can test it on mtgo
Noble Hierarch:
- Is Blood moon defense
- Gets out a Siege Rhino on turn 3 which helps us switch agro quickly if we need to
- Gets out LoTV on turn 2, for some decks this is back breaking
- Exalted ability lets us swing into same toughness creatures and trade favorably, it lets our baby Flayers swing for 3 dmg and trigger card filtering, as well as our Shambling vents
- Prevents decks from being able to cut us off white easily
- Gets under Ensnaring bridge
- As a corner case it helps us activate Spellskite if you choose to run that in SB
and I'm sure I'm missing a few, hah.
With all this said I still think Dark Confidant and Noble are personal preference and whatever mix of either/or is not correct or incorrect, run what works for you and adapt as you learn.
Obviously 'spice' and 'brews' are encouraged but if you think that goyf's are ever excluded from this deck you are immediately talking about a different deck.
It is difficult to explain why Noble Hierarch is so good to folks who have not played her, she is not categorically a bad top deck late in the game either. But wanted to add to your list that Hierarch also adds to a tendency to get a creature in your graveyard early against removal decks, so thus the synergy with Flayer and Goyf... bolt the Hierarch=a more persistent exalted for your Goyf.
If you are dealing with a high number of tron players in your local meta it might just be best to change decks.
Aven Mindcensor for Tron. Also convenient for Nahiri.
Yeah I get it, just wanted to point out I didn't even considered not playing Goyf as a budget proposition. Sorry for the inconvenience.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/471206#paper
damn I think Seige Rhino is back! definitely a good meta choice right now is Junk. Grim Flayer is not good at the moment.
grim flayer is good in infect, tron and scapeshift. siege rhino is good in burn, bant eldrazi, grixis control. i think eldrazi is on the rise. eldrazi is hard to beat with our current main deck.
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
Did you mean against?
Modern Junk Primer
Legacy ANT Primer
L1 Judge
I don't think Grim or Rhino are mutually exclusive, you can run both. Obviousley the deck has some range as far as card selection and any one way to build it is not more right or wrong than any other way. I think the build largely depends on your play style and other supporting cards. That being said, in the context of running 'all' of the two drops:
Reasons to play Scavenging ooze over other 2 drops:
- You need GY interaction immediatley
Reasons not to play Scavenging ooze over other 2 drops:
- Scavenging Ooze is a high value card so we don't want to slam it down early because its extremely vulnerable so we would rather drop any of our other two drops
Reasons to play Tarmogoyf over other 2 drops:
- Maybe you fetched and hand ripped on turn 1 and you can stick a 3/4 or a 4/5 tarmo on turn 2, yeah, seems good.
- You have a Scooze in hand
- Clock, clock, clock.
Reasons to not play Tarmogoyf over other 2 drops:
- Good chance OPP still have removal that can kill your tarmo in the early game so might be best to run out other lightning rods before the big boy
- You have a Bob in hand
- You have a flayer in hand
Reasons to play Dark confidant over other 2 drops:
- Card draw A S A P
- Hes a 'must' answer, that means your OPP has to make bad removal decisions early game to stop him immediately - like, pathing early on, or taking dmg from a dismember, etc.
Reasons not to play Dark Confidant over other 2 drops:
- You have a Grim Flayer in hand
Reasons to play Grim Flayer over other 2 drops:
- Need to get delirium online asap, card filtering active asap as well
- He is a great lightning rod for tarmo and other grims because he is also a must answer / must block.
- Starts the clock 'reasonably' better or equal to other two drops
Reasons not to play Grim Flayer over other 2 drops:
-
It's a very loose flow chart and I'm sure there will be some disagreements but in my experience this is what I have found. I'm almost always wanting to drop grim on turn two over any other option (This does not mean it's better than the other cards (its arguably the worst card), just that in the situation of 'turn 2', I want to be dropping grim), having grim set up the next 3 draws, as well as having the potential to influence the next 6 turns is too much of a reward not to play him first. This coupled with the fact that as the game goes on the stakes get higher and the situation gets more volatile, meaning dropping a turn 4 bob, or a turn 4 2/2 Grim is very lack luster when your OPP is doing things like: "Play my second reality smasher, swing for ten...".
So, is Junk now back to tier 1? What's changed so much? Is Flayer the common card or is bob? Bob wasn't being used in junk for a good while, so why has it changed now?
What is truly the best current, cookie-cutter Junk list look like? Hierarchs, bobs, flayers? It'd really help if you guys could speed me up so I can test it on mtgo
Generally, people played Grim Flayer in Junk, but recently the appearance of Bob changed it a bit. Siege Rhino seems to be good now, and other than that, some lists tend to play Hierachs, some don't it seems to be that both are good. Check out these lists for example: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-modern-constructed-league-2016-12-12
Out of these lists, the most interesting one for me has been this one by Edhelas:
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Dark Confidant
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Siege Rhino
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Path to Exile
3 Blooming Marsh
1 Forest
1 Gavony Township
1 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
3 Shambling Vent
2 Swamp
1 Temple Garden
1 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Collective Brutality
1 Damnation
3 Fulminator Mage
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Seal of Primordium
2 Stony Silence
I definitely like the mana-base more than before, looks like the Blooming Marsh was a nice addition. I've always been very wary of the leylines, I feel like you need either 4 of them or none, are they truly worth it? What are they optimal against, dredge, the mirror, control decks? Why not spellbomb and rest in peace?
Siege Rhino is such a good card, but it frustrated me in modern, it always felt clunky and stuck in my hands. If the meta has speed up with aggro and combo, why is siege rhino good all of a sudden?
I have a majority of my jund deck foiled, boo to having to purchase some of these other new foil staples. It looks like the new lilly is good as a 1 of, just wanted to make sure the new Chandra wouldn't be the new hotness
I would suggest getting the new Lili. She is amazing and right I would never leave home without at least 1 copy in my 75 either in Jund or Junk. Blooming Marsh seems good in Junk, could be close to the manabase to go in future. I am also surprized to not see any RIPs, as they are great SB cards against Dredge, but I guess since Dredge is fairly present you gotta dedicate much GY hate anyways to the SB, for which reason Leyline will be better. RIP/Nihil would be better if you only have say 2 slots for GY hate. But probably this is only the case if you don't have much dredge in your meta.
I am curious as well why Siege Rhino is getting popular now, I remember that some people said that its good because it can't get blinked by Eldrazi Displacer, but I don't know myself actually.
And just a sidenote since you mention Chandra, I would not buy her, she is not mandatory or needed in Jund I think, at least not now. Sorry for the short OT.
I like this list, its like the list that won Team Unified Modern.
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=14032&d=283277&f=MO