Well, the reason buried ruin is in there is because I played 4 ghost quarter, 1 buried ruin and 2 forests in testing. When I tuned it, I changed it because I felt like every time I drew a ghost quarter I would have rather it been a buried ruin. And ghost quarter was so unimpressive in this list that it was easily swapped with a forest, which, again, I felt I needed throughout testing. You don't need to sell me on ghost quarter, I love the card and is why I started with the easy 4 of in testing. It was like the second or third reason for me to try mono colored: I was stoked to play ghost quarter. But again, testing proved otherwise.
Let's put it this way, the philosophy of this version, for me, is to race to tron. If you have time to cycle chromatics and search for lands, then you should have time to reuse an expedition map to ensure you hit tron. Think of buried ruin as expedition maps 5-8, but with upside and bad alone. It's another way of getting to tron with only one piece in hand.
And again, this isn't theory, it's testing. I would just be in this position where if I could just land my last tron piece, I would dominate the game, but I drew a ghost quarter. Awesome. In those situations, I wanted to either draw an expedition map or keep cycling through my deck, and assuming I was doing that in the first couple of turns of the game, buried ruin gives me that.
Fog is cool and all, but ballista is a real card. Like really real. You will see it as a main stay, probably as a two of, in a few lists in the future, and I expect affinity to be one of those lists, along with eldrazi tron. Plus, the only real contender, as I said above, to ballista is warping wail, definitely not fog, though it does look good in the board, just haven't had it come up that I need it. I usually build my sideboards as a result of notes on why I lost, and I was losing more to not hitting tron while having a big mana answer in hand, rather than just buying a turn so I could drop that tron piece I had in hand or use that expedition map I drew.
All this being said, lol, mono green is admittedly not the best choice right now, but it is a fun learning exercise that I still recommend to any tron players. I certainly learned a lot, mainly that ballista is a real magic card in modern.
Thanks for taking time to respond.
I'm still going to disagree on Buried Ruin. I understand your point and I understand how you are using it. It may work, but it's not 'good' or 'optimal'. It may be fine in your testing or with your specific meta, but I do not believe that it is an across-the-board improvement. I've played GW, GB, GR, and G, mostly with 18-19 lands and, in every version, it's a race to Tron. My average to assemble Tron feels like it is probably between Turn 4 and 5 (if I calculated it, I'm guessing it would be 4.x turns, but I'm going to go through my MTGO replays and find out this weekend). There are certainly games where I don't get it until Turn 6/7 (and the recurring Fulminator Mage and Ghost Quarter or Crumble to Dust games where it never happens), but those are balanced with the occasional Turn 3 (more often than a Turn 7 if I'm guessing). I think I tend to evaluate my opening hand on whether I am taking a line to Turn 3, 4, or 5 Tron. Buried Ruin requires 2 mana plus sac'ing it meaning it isn't active until Turn 3. If you use it on Turn 3, whatever you return cannot be played until Turn 4, meaning you are on, best case scenario, a Turn 5 Tron. I don't see the benefit to playing a card which narrowly provides me with a minor chance at improving my odds at a Turn 5 Tron. At that point, cyclers or draw would seem about the same in terms of efficiency.
With Buried Ruin: Turn 1 - Mine, Map. Turn 2 - BR, Activate Map. Turn 3 - Power Plant, Activate Ruin. Turn 4 - Land?, Map, Best Case Activate Map. Turn 5 - Tower, XXX
Or: Turn 1 - Mine, Chromatic. Turn 2 - BR, Chromatic for Green, Scrying. Turn 3 - Power Plant, Activate Ruin. Turn 4 - Land?, Chromatic, Best Cast Activate Chromatic for Green, Scrying. Turn 5 - Tower, XXX.
As you can see, you are on a Turn 5 (or 6 if you don't have a 4th land drop) Tron. In the Chromatic Scenario, it also requires you to have or draw into 2/8 colored search spells by Turn 4. To me, it's just not worth it. I would much rather have the Ghost Quarters (my mono-green build has 2x GQ, 1x Mikokoro, 1x Forest for your 4x BR), but you, of course, can do whatever you feel is strongest.
I don't disagree with you on Walking Ballista. I think you need another 'sweeper', though. Ballista will cost you 4 mana to take down 1-of a Goblin Guide, Eidolon, or Swiftspear. If you are on a turn 5 Tron, you need Fog as early interaction with aggro decks to get you to a point where a Ballista could be used or you can activate an O-Stone or Ugin. I wouldn't recommend just giving away Game 1 against Burn/Aggro and 4x Ballista is too much.
What do people think of sacred ground vs gq and extraction?
Pretty sure that Surgical Extraction's instant speed can strip the land from the graveyard before the Sacred Ground's trigger resolves.
Relic can be activated after Surgical Extraction is on the stack.
What do people think of sacred ground vs gq and extraction?
It will get around Ghost Quarter, but not the Extraction, right? It would be Opponent Ghost Quarter Tron Land, Tron Land to Graveyard, Sacred Ground to Stack, Extraction Tron Land, Nothing in Graveyard to Come Back... Is that right?
Yeah, it looks like a lot of people plan on combating Tron by way of GQ/Surgical. As someone earlier said, Pithing Needle and Relic of Progenitus can really help out there, and the fact that they are really good in other situations makes them really solid meta calls right now.
Over on the TronMTG Reddit, mpaw975 posted a mana base primer that references how to use Blood Moon to maximum effect. As it happens, I read this article after deciding Spellskite isn't where I want to be currently (it's been dead for me far too often recently), so I had already been testing with 4x Lightning Bolt, 2x Kozilek's Return instead of 2x Spellskite, 4x Pyroclasm that I usually run. So far that change has been solid, but I need to test against decks like Affinity, Elves, and Infect, along with the mirror, much more to be completely sold.
After reading the aforementioned Reddit article, I realized I had already skewed my deck harder into red, and it wouldn't take much for me to adjust my sideboard to try out the Blood Moon option. Yeah, I'll admit, I thought it was crazy at first too, but it's intriguing enough to at least have fun with for awhile at the very least. My sideboard as it currently stands:
Since Blood Moon came in, Thought-Knot Seers came out; I hate tripping over my own cards since TKS is uncastable through Blood Moon. Warping Wail gets a pass due to its ability to answer critically early, and can worst-case allow for some mana ramp if we have a Moon ready.
Thragtusks are a concession to how bad the Burn match in particular is, and can add threat density and more resilience to Path when needed. They're also fairly easy to cast with a Moon on the table. The extra Forest helps against multiple Ghost Quarters, gives more ramp off of opposing Paths, and helps us lock green mana with Blood Moon in play. (Incidentally, Blood Moon is also very helpful against GQ/Surgical since it turns the nonbasics into Mountains...at least until we are ready to Claim or O-Stone to ramp some payoffs.)
Emmy 2.0 is my last out to combo; Tron's goal against such decks is usually tempo plays through resource denial, and Emmy TPE plays very nicely with Warping Wail and an enchantment in our own yard. I concede that she may likely still just be too slow to do anything relevant in such situations, but after losing TKS, I wanted something to try to just beat combo on the spot.
I would like to add a pair of Pithing Needles, but I really like having three copies of Claim, Relic, and Wail. Worst case, I could cut the Blood Moons if they don't work out and add them there, or I might just try out cutting a Relic and a Wail to add the pair. Without Spellskite, having a way to stop opposing Karns (besides Bolting them after already losing a critical land) would be nice. I just really need to test this out, but it is an interesting idea (kudos to mpaw975 for his idea, and well-written articles).
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In other news...I lost to Bant Eldrazi for only the second time last week due to what ended up being a poor choice. (The only other time was against Todd Stevens in day two of the Indy SCG Modern Open, just after Eldrazi Winter, and I got blown out by an unexpected Negate to my O-Stone in the third game.) I was on the play, and after using my turn two to dig and find my last Tron piece, I felt pretty good with a hand of Ulamog, Karn, Kozilek's Return, Chromatic Sphere, and Expedition Map.
On his turn two, he drops Eldrazi Temple (along with his Yavimaya Coast from turn one) and casts Chalice for one. No big, I think; I want to drop Karn and keep him out of the game, so when he passes, I go, draw a World Breaker, and finish Tron to play him. So far, so good. I reasoned that keeping his tempo down would allow for my best chance to win, so instead of exiling his Chalice, I wiped his Temple. I pass, and he drops a Brushland and casts Spellskite. Ugh, now I have to remove that first to get at the Chalice.
He passes, I draw another Expedition Map, plus Karn to target him, then pass. He goes, drops a Cavern of Souls, and casts Eldrazi Skyspawner. Ugh. Again he passes, and I draw...Ancient Stirrings. Long story short, his next two turns have him keeping Karn down to the point where I can't ever remove the Chalice, and he casts TKS, then Reality Smasher over those same two turns. I drew another Stirrings and a Sanctum of Ugin...and lost. Even though I had plenty of outs, I just couldn't come back from that.
My real slip-up was in not respecting Chalice, and for also being too worried about TKS ripping my Ulamog. If I had removed his Chalice as I should have, the best thing he could have done would be one of two plays:
-Drop a Temple and a Reality Smasher, taking out Karn while leaving a four-turn clock. This would allow me to have Ulamog in two turns, barring a TKS, but even then I would have been able to set myself up for success much better with what I had in my hand.
-Drop any land and a Thought-Knot Seer, ripping my Ulamog. I got the impression that he was a bit light on lands, so this was the option I was expecting (and that he in fact was banking on). Even if he does this, though, I can remove my own Karn to exile that TKS and draw a card, worst-case, then have all of that mana to again set myself up with what I had in my hand.
It was odd that he was running a board line against Tron that packed both Spellskites and Stony Silence, but his line was perfect once I exiled his land instead of Chalice. Had I simply respected that Chalice, I would have likely won that match.
i play turbo depths in legacy and i have 3 pithing main for wasteland and I have GQ main instead for mirror... i play blind turn 1 pithing needle naming wasteland.. which idea can be applied here, need testing for sure.
if we do this, we have to cut our GQ and replace it with another forest and mirror matches will be based on draw luck.
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Tron variants
Eldrazi variants
Burn
Infect
Living End
Bloodwalkers
RG Ponza
i play turbo depths in legacy and i have 3 pithing main for wasteland and I have GQ main instead for mirror... i play blind turn 1 pithing needle naming wasteland.. which idea can be applied here, need testing for sure.
if we do this, we have to cut our GQ and replace it with another forest and mirror matches will be based on draw luck.
We can play both Ghost Quarter and Pithing Needle in the mirror; having both allows us to be flexible and adaptable depending on what is going on with the game state. If we are ahead and worried about them fetching a GQ to slow us down, then Pithing Needle on it is a solid defensive play. If we are behind, we can fetch for our own GQ, or just Needle naming Map, Karn, or O-Stone, depending on what we are most worried about at a given moment. Naming Needle to stop opposing GQs doesn't render our 1-2 copies worthless, as they can still tap for mana, or come back online if they manage to remove our Needle.
I played it as a two-of in the board for about a week. Although I love the card, I found that when I really need it (the early game), it's just too slow to be effective. I like that it's never dead, but I feel like we need more answers, not threats.
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So last night I ended up going 2-2:
Grixis Control beat me 2-0; thirteen mana and a handful of colored spells on weird draws sealed me out the first game, then he was able to use Fulminator Mage six(!) times against me along with Surgical Extraction during the second. Since people know Tron is on the upswing, we really have to be prepared for Fulminators and GQs, and not having Pithing Needle in my sideboard really hurt here.
Round two was against Blooicide. Game one he killed me on turn four; game two he killed me on turn three. Both times I had O-Stone and Ugin ready to be active the following turn, and in the second game I had none of my three Warping Wails or four Bolts to hang in there.
Round three was against Norin Sisters. Drew decently, encountered no oppressive hate cards, and stemarolled. Gave my opponent some ideas for how to improve the deck.
Round four was against Mono Black Control. Drew decently, encountered no oppressive hate cards, and steamrolled. Gave my opponent some ideas for how to improve the deck.
So all of the toying around with Blood Moon and such immediately went out the window. That slot should definitely have been 2-3 Pithing Needle for as long as people expect Tron to be good, which will probably be for awhile. Spellskite would have been great against Blooicide, as the ability to speedbump and deter pump decks of all sorts means it's coming back in. Blood Moon is only really good against decks we're close to even with or better, so as fun as it was to test out, I need the points against bad matches more.
As far as the maindeck goes, I've switched back from 4x Lightning Bolt (along with 2x Kozilek's Return) to 2x each of Spellskite and Pyroclasm. No one locally is playing Cheeri0s yet, which is where I really want to have Bolt, and I'd rather have faster go-wide tools and answers that are hard to deal with pre-board. If that deck doesn't receive a ban during the next cycle, Bolts will come back in some number.
2-3 Thought-Knot Seer would be nice, but I don't feel like I have the room at the moment. That third Spellskite might turn into one along with the third Needle, but in matches where I want Needle, I want it early and often. The other option is to leave Emrakul, the Promised End in that slot to increase threat density, along with all of the reasons I mentioned in my previous post.
Lastly, Thragtusk is out of my list. Although I love the card in and of itself, it seems too often to be a turn too slow against Burn (especially since Atarka's Command and Skullcrack almost always turn off the lifegain trigger). I don't feel like I really need it to beat GBx or anything with Path (that isn't sided in from Burn), and not being able to fetch it hurts as well. TKS used to help in this slot instead, so I really need to test against Burn and see how this configuration fares.
The meta was:
2 RG Tron
1 Jund
1 Junk
1 BUG Control / Blue Jund
1 Eggs
1 Grixis Control
1 Grixis Delver
1 BW Eldrazi
1 Affinity
1 Tezzerator
1 Bant Goodstuff
ROUND 1: vs Grixis Control - 2:0
First game I won via Ulamog, I just overvalued him when he ran out of counterspells.
SB:
-3 Pyroclasm
-2 Oblivion Stone
+2 Relic of Progenitus
+2 Warping Wail
+1 Emrakul, the Promised End
Second game, I resolved a Karn on turn 6+, restarted with another Karn exiled from my hand, restarted with the new turn 0 Karn with Emrakul exiled from my hand and that's it.
ROUND 2: vs Bant Goodstuff - 2:1
First game he crushed me with a Knight of the Reliquary and multiple Ghost Quarters
SB:
-1 Ulamog
-1 World Breaker
-1 Karn
-1 Oblivion Stone
+2 Relic
+Life from the Loam
+Crucible of Worlds
Game 2, I eliminated his Board with a turn 3 Pyroclasm, followed by Karn, Wurmcoil Engine and more.
Game 3, he ran out of gas early on due to a Oblivion Stone ready on my turn 4, then lost to Ugin and Wurmcoil.
ROUND 3: vs Grixis Delver - 2:0
First game, my opponent was screwed on 2 lands when I started to go big. Karn triggered Sanctum to find Ulamog, casting that was game over.
SB:
-4 Karn Liberated
-2 Oblivion Stone
-1 Ulamog
+2 Relic
+2 Warping Wail
+Loam
+Crucible
+Emrakul
Game 2, he kept me off of tron with 3 Molten Rain. But I resolved a Wurmcoil Engine, then restored Tron and got Karn and Ulamog out. That was round 3.
ROUND 4: vs RG Tron - 2:1
First Game, I used my tutors to search up Ghost Quarter. But I drew no more tutors and just the wrong lands, then my opponent resolved a Karn first.
SB:
-3 Pyroclasm
-4 Oblivion Stone
-3 Wurmcoil Engine
-1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
-1 Chromatic Sphere
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Warping Wail
+3 Nature's Claim
+Ancient Grudge
+Loam
+Crucible
+2 TKS
Second game, I had a Surgical and an Ancient Stirrings in my opening hand. Stirrings found Expedition Map, Map found Ghost Quarter and on turn 3, I exiled his Towers. On turn 4 I resolved Karn and he scoops.
Third Game, I had a strong starting 7 without GQ, and my opponent had a weak start. I resolved Karn on turn 3, and World Breaker on turn 4. GG's were mine.
Afterwards, we discussed a bit about RG Tron and I saw that my opponent had a quite sub-optimal SB (and just 12 cards) and some minor main deck choices (just 1 Oblivion Stone, Karplusan Forest instead of Groves etc). But he wanted to improve his deck. This was his first competitive tournament, and he made 3rd place after all.
So my stream of bad luck seems to have ended. I had some interesting decks to face, had to count my lines of play a bit and so on, and I finished 1st place. I am very confident in the addition of Faithless Lootings, though I discarded very wrong in a game against Bant Goodstuff (I would probably have lost either way). On the other hand, especially the late-game important flashback ability was the nuts.
GB Tron went to the Top 8 of GP Brisbane losing to Lantern Control oddly enough which is normally a pretty good match up. Didn't even run Fatal Push though oddly enough.
In my local metagame, usually BGx and Tron have the most players right now. So I want at least 2 SB slots for land recursion - either destroyed Tron lands or GQ in the mirror MU. During testing, I often switched between 2 Crucibles and Loam, just 2 Crucibles or the current setup. Against BGx, I guess Loam is better. But in the mirror MU, I'd prefer Crucible because it can be found via Stirrings and costs no mana for multiple recursions.
Emrakul, the Promised End is for the occursion of combo or control decks. Against combo, the cast-trigger should win the game, and control will struggle to come back afterwards. Plus Newrakul still is a fast clock, the original was just too bad as an early topdeck and too hard to reliably find during the lategame.
And Lootings is great, does real work for me. Playing just 3 early removals didn't turn out bad yet, but I am already thinking about a change to go back to 4 again.
Hi guys, got a fairly quick report for you from GP Brisbane where I finished 10-5 in 117th place with a total player cap of 1000 players.
I played the same deck as previously. Overall I think RG Tron is not the best version. I would have loved to have had Push or Brutality many times over the 2 Kozileks returns, which pretty much did nothing the whole tournament, and were terrible top decks in some situations. There was a lot of Eldrazi Tron and Bant Eldrazi floating around, although I played a fairly nice range of decks. Walking Ballista is a card I found to be either stellar or ok, but it was never bad. I personally think we can drop Spellskite in favour of the ballista as Infect was pretty much nowhere to be seen and push makes spellskite worse.
I started day with 2 byes.
Round 3: I was matched up against Bant Eldrazi. Lost this match 1-2 fairly even, but in both games my opponent won he Thought-Knot seered me more that three times to strip my hand of anything useful. Ended up flooding. Eldrazi temple can make this deck way too fast and stirrings adds an insane amount of consistency. It tends to highlight the problems Tron has with drawing all or no threats. Game 1 drew both Kozi returns which just sat in my hand.
Round 4: 2-0. I came up against an Esper midrange/walkers deck. A very midrange deck running Narset for card advantage and Gideon for pressure. Essentially he tapped out for his 4CMC walkers and was pretty much dead to turn 4 Karn game 1, and turn 5 Ugin the next. Seems very favoured to Tron.
Round 5: 2-0. Played a classic Jund deck. Walking Ballista was excellent in this matchup, essentially threatening his Lilliana's until I could assemble Tron on turn 4 on game 1 and Turn 4 again game two. I think my opponent got unlucky as he hit me with multiple inquisitions and only 1 thoughtseize. I was carfull to try and play my hand out asap to make his discard dead though.
Round 6. 2-0. Grixis Delver. This is what the Ballista is for. Opponent got Turn 1 Delver both games, which hit me for a bit, but once I got past a few counters which I baited out with maps, scrying and stirrings, I landed a Ballista on 4 counters which is crazy good once Tron is assembled. G2, I went down to 1 before stabilising with a Karn followed up with an Ugin.
Round 7. 2-0. Black-White tokens: Turn three tron both games to make this an easy win. G1, Ugin did the job on turn 4. Opponent did manage to get a potential turn 4 kill game 2, with multiple anthems and 5 spirits out, but Ugin once again did the job.
Round 8. 0-2. Eldrazi Tron: Again G1 opponent has T1- Matter Reshaper into T2 Thought-Knot, into T3 Thoughtknot into T4 Reality Smasher...not much I could do. Game two he T1 Reshaper, T2 Chalice on one, pretty much killing me, T3 Thought-Knot into T4 Reality Smasher. Again Eldrazi Temple is just way too good and I oouldn't muster much resistance.
Round 9. 0-2. Bant Eldrazi. Absolute nightmare matchup. Opponent played very well and I made two big mistakes. G1 I got T2 Thought-Knoted, and then they just had answers for everything. Played two wurmcoils, both pathed.. and dead to Reality Smashers after. G2 again an Early Thought-Knot which slowed me down enough for him to land a Eldrazi Displacer which effectively neutered Karn and Ulamog.
Day 2:
Round 10. Opponent didn't turn up. Woot
Round 11. 1-2. Burn. Urrghh. Essentially nut draws for my opponent both games. G1 - I was on the draw, Opponent: Swiftspear, Swiftspear + Bolt, Goblin Guide + Boros Charm, Boros Charm to finish me... G2 I was on the play and managed to survive on 3 life after I put the shields up with Spellskite and Walking Ballista, a turn 4 Wurmcoil took me to safety. G3 Opponent on play - Goblin Guide, Swiftspear + Lava Spike, Boros Charm + Bolt, Boros Charm to finish. I managed to assemble T3 Tron, but has nothing to cast (I did not see Kozileks return once).
Round 11. 0-2. Zoo. Got Absolutely destroyed. Opponent on the play G1, Nacatal, Nacatal + Goblin Guide, Atarka's Command. G2 Opponent, Nacatal, Nacatal + Nacatal, Destructive Revelry on my Spellskite + Bolt etc etc. Drew Koz return, but useless against the 3/3 Nacatyl.
Round 12. 2-0. Abzan. Fairly easy matchup, some hand disruption and I when down to 6 life game 1, until I stabilised with Karn, then Ulamog next turn which forced a conscession. G2 pretty much the same. Stony silence turn 2, but I was ready with Nature's Claim. Then O'stone for his board, followed by a Karn.
Round 13. 2-0. Chord. Not sure if Kiki or not, but he did run Magus of the Moon main deck. Once I got O'stone online he chorded for Selfless spirit to save his board, but Walking Ballista managed to clear the field afterward, leaving me able to play Karn. I started attacking his hand with Karn, exiling a Voice and a Scooze, and he decided to start attacking my life total with 3 creatures and ignored Karn. I Ultimated Karn leaving me with the Voice and the Scooze in play which provided a quick clock to force the consession. G2. Managed to land a Turn 5 Ugin to clear the board multiple times, until he had nothing left so I was able to ultimate Ugin for the win.
Round 14. U Tron. Lost game round to a Mindslaver T5, where he pretty much countered everything I did until that point. He played my Spellskite, Ballista's himself, which he then redircted to the Skite to make me pay lethal. G2 He resorted to Crucible and Ghost quarter to try and kill my tron pieces, but I had plenty of search effects which rendered it pointless. He sacrificed his own board presence to slow me down, which was a mistake in my opinion. G3 he mulled to 4, so wasn't much of a match.
But anyway. I'm reasonably happy with how I went. The games I lost I couldn't do much with the deck I had. I think if I was playing GB I would have had more game against the aggro decks, but against my opponents draws I think that kills pretty much anyone regardless. Eldrazi tron seems to be the problem, at they are just too fast, too big and too consistent for Ugin or Karn to be decent.
Looks like the big threats from Vancouver were eldrazi tron and deaths shadow. I've never played either of those matchups. Does anyone who has have advice?
Well, I prefer Pyroclasm as early interaction. And I play just 1 Ugin and still 3 Wurmcoils (see my list posted above). So I would replace the 4 Bolts with 4 Clasm hehe.
@finks: I have some experience with Death Shadow, but from the days before GitProbe was banned. It is just plain too fast in my opinion. You can, if useful in your overall meta, go up to 4 Spellskites, 4 Wurmcoils and 4 Clasms and 4 O-Stones in your 75, alongside some additional lifegain (4 Nature's Claim in the SB, probably more). But you will still need to draw it in time. So I think there is just another MU like Infect in terms of win-percentage.
The deaths shadow matchup is pretty rough. You basically need T3 Tron, with an O-stone ready to blow on T4. T4 Ugin works well, T3 Karn or Wurmcoil... Basically, if you don't have the nut-hand, you're not going to win.
I have only lost to EldraziTron once, and both games they had two TKS on the board by T3. Otherwise, the matchup feels pretty good. Gx Tron is better at assembling the UrzaLands, and Karn and O-Stone do some serious work.
Considering that death's shadow seems to be winning mainly on the title card and tarmagoyf, I'm planning on jamming a bunch of blessed alliance in the side. 3 of those, 3 path and 4 ostone and hope that's enough
For GB, fatal push is a clean way to deal with DS. I also run surgical in my sideboard for it. Ive recently went to 3 brutality 1 push main and 1 each side. Could see myself upping the push count if DS really picks up. I like this version better than the old all in hit you once version
i play turbo depths in legacy and i have 3 pithing main for wasteland and I have GQ main instead for mirror... i play blind turn 1 pithing needle naming wasteland.. which idea can be applied here, need testing for sure.
if we do this, we have to cut our GQ and replace it with another forest and mirror matches will be based on draw luck.
I once blew out a grixis player by blind naming fulminator mage G2 with a turn 1 pithing needle. He was pissed as hell.
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Modern: -UBG Lantern Control-GW or RG or R Tron - G Stompy - C KCI Combo-
EDH: -UG Ezuri-UGZegana-BRMogis-WUBRGRamos-WBREdgar-URLocust God-WUBRBreya-BMacar-WUBrago-WEvra-
i play turbo depths in legacy and i have 3 pithing main for wasteland and I have GQ main instead for mirror... i play blind turn 1 pithing needle naming wasteland.. which idea can be applied here, need testing for sure.
if we do this, we have to cut our GQ and replace it with another forest and mirror matches will be based on draw luck.
I once blew out a grixis player by blind naming fulminator mage G2 with a turn 1 pithing needle. He was pissed as hell.
i do that all the time. i have 2 needles SB
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MODERN
Tron variants
Eldrazi variants
Burn
Infect
Living End
Bloodwalkers
RG Ponza
If you're worried about the burn match up I recommend trying 3-4 white leylines in the board. It completely shuts off most of burns damage as well as buys you usually 3-4 turns to set up vs valakut decks and ad nauseum, two bad match ups for us.
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Thanks for taking time to respond.
I'm still going to disagree on Buried Ruin. I understand your point and I understand how you are using it. It may work, but it's not 'good' or 'optimal'. It may be fine in your testing or with your specific meta, but I do not believe that it is an across-the-board improvement. I've played GW, GB, GR, and G, mostly with 18-19 lands and, in every version, it's a race to Tron. My average to assemble Tron feels like it is probably between Turn 4 and 5 (if I calculated it, I'm guessing it would be 4.x turns, but I'm going to go through my MTGO replays and find out this weekend). There are certainly games where I don't get it until Turn 6/7 (and the recurring Fulminator Mage and Ghost Quarter or Crumble to Dust games where it never happens), but those are balanced with the occasional Turn 3 (more often than a Turn 7 if I'm guessing). I think I tend to evaluate my opening hand on whether I am taking a line to Turn 3, 4, or 5 Tron. Buried Ruin requires 2 mana plus sac'ing it meaning it isn't active until Turn 3. If you use it on Turn 3, whatever you return cannot be played until Turn 4, meaning you are on, best case scenario, a Turn 5 Tron. I don't see the benefit to playing a card which narrowly provides me with a minor chance at improving my odds at a Turn 5 Tron. At that point, cyclers or draw would seem about the same in terms of efficiency.
As an example:
Ideal: Turn 1 - Mine, Map. Turn 2 - Power Plant, Activate Map. Turn 3 - Tower, XXX.
Or: Turn 1 - Mine, Chromatic. Turn 2 - Power Plant, Chromatic for Green, Scrying. Turn 3 - Tower, XXX.
With Buried Ruin: Turn 1 - Mine, Map. Turn 2 - BR, Activate Map. Turn 3 - Power Plant, Activate Ruin. Turn 4 - Land?, Map, Best Case Activate Map. Turn 5 - Tower, XXX
Or: Turn 1 - Mine, Chromatic. Turn 2 - BR, Chromatic for Green, Scrying. Turn 3 - Power Plant, Activate Ruin. Turn 4 - Land?, Chromatic, Best Cast Activate Chromatic for Green, Scrying. Turn 5 - Tower, XXX.
As you can see, you are on a Turn 5 (or 6 if you don't have a 4th land drop) Tron. In the Chromatic Scenario, it also requires you to have or draw into 2/8 colored search spells by Turn 4. To me, it's just not worth it. I would much rather have the Ghost Quarters (my mono-green build has 2x GQ, 1x Mikokoro, 1x Forest for your 4x BR), but you, of course, can do whatever you feel is strongest.
I don't disagree with you on Walking Ballista. I think you need another 'sweeper', though. Ballista will cost you 4 mana to take down 1-of a Goblin Guide, Eidolon, or Swiftspear. If you are on a turn 5 Tron, you need Fog as early interaction with aggro decks to get you to a point where a Ballista could be used or you can activate an O-Stone or Ugin. I wouldn't recommend just giving away Game 1 against Burn/Aggro and 4x Ballista is too much.
Pretty sure that Surgical Extraction's instant speed can strip the land from the graveyard before the Sacred Ground's trigger resolves.
Relic can be activated after Surgical Extraction is on the stack.
It will get around Ghost Quarter, but not the Extraction, right? It would be Opponent Ghost Quarter Tron Land, Tron Land to Graveyard, Sacred Ground to Stack, Extraction Tron Land, Nothing in Graveyard to Come Back... Is that right?
Pithing Needle is just better.
Over on the TronMTG Reddit, mpaw975 posted a mana base primer that references how to use Blood Moon to maximum effect. As it happens, I read this article after deciding Spellskite isn't where I want to be currently (it's been dead for me far too often recently), so I had already been testing with 4x Lightning Bolt, 2x Kozilek's Return instead of 2x Spellskite, 4x Pyroclasm that I usually run. So far that change has been solid, but I need to test against decks like Affinity, Elves, and Infect, along with the mirror, much more to be completely sold.
After reading the aforementioned Reddit article, I realized I had already skewed my deck harder into red, and it wouldn't take much for me to adjust my sideboard to try out the Blood Moon option. Yeah, I'll admit, I thought it was crazy at first too, but it's intriguing enough to at least have fun with for awhile at the very least. My sideboard as it currently stands:
1x Forest
1x Emrakul, the Promised End
2x Blood Moon
2x Thragtusk
3x Relic of Progenitus
3x Nature's Claim
3x Warping Wail
Since Blood Moon came in, Thought-Knot Seers came out; I hate tripping over my own cards since TKS is uncastable through Blood Moon. Warping Wail gets a pass due to its ability to answer critically early, and can worst-case allow for some mana ramp if we have a Moon ready.
Thragtusks are a concession to how bad the Burn match in particular is, and can add threat density and more resilience to Path when needed. They're also fairly easy to cast with a Moon on the table. The extra Forest helps against multiple Ghost Quarters, gives more ramp off of opposing Paths, and helps us lock green mana with Blood Moon in play. (Incidentally, Blood Moon is also very helpful against GQ/Surgical since it turns the nonbasics into Mountains...at least until we are ready to Claim or O-Stone to ramp some payoffs.)
Emmy 2.0 is my last out to combo; Tron's goal against such decks is usually tempo plays through resource denial, and Emmy TPE plays very nicely with Warping Wail and an enchantment in our own yard. I concede that she may likely still just be too slow to do anything relevant in such situations, but after losing TKS, I wanted something to try to just beat combo on the spot.
I would like to add a pair of Pithing Needles, but I really like having three copies of Claim, Relic, and Wail. Worst case, I could cut the Blood Moons if they don't work out and add them there, or I might just try out cutting a Relic and a Wail to add the pair. Without Spellskite, having a way to stop opposing Karns (besides Bolting them after already losing a critical land) would be nice. I just really need to test this out, but it is an interesting idea (kudos to mpaw975 for his idea, and well-written articles).
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In other news...I lost to Bant Eldrazi for only the second time last week due to what ended up being a poor choice. (The only other time was against Todd Stevens in day two of the Indy SCG Modern Open, just after Eldrazi Winter, and I got blown out by an unexpected Negate to my O-Stone in the third game.) I was on the play, and after using my turn two to dig and find my last Tron piece, I felt pretty good with a hand of Ulamog, Karn, Kozilek's Return, Chromatic Sphere, and Expedition Map.
On his turn two, he drops Eldrazi Temple (along with his Yavimaya Coast from turn one) and casts Chalice for one. No big, I think; I want to drop Karn and keep him out of the game, so when he passes, I go, draw a World Breaker, and finish Tron to play him. So far, so good. I reasoned that keeping his tempo down would allow for my best chance to win, so instead of exiling his Chalice, I wiped his Temple. I pass, and he drops a Brushland and casts Spellskite. Ugh, now I have to remove that first to get at the Chalice.
He passes, I draw another Expedition Map, plus Karn to target him, then pass. He goes, drops a Cavern of Souls, and casts Eldrazi Skyspawner. Ugh. Again he passes, and I draw...Ancient Stirrings. Long story short, his next two turns have him keeping Karn down to the point where I can't ever remove the Chalice, and he casts TKS, then Reality Smasher over those same two turns. I drew another Stirrings and a Sanctum of Ugin...and lost. Even though I had plenty of outs, I just couldn't come back from that.
My real slip-up was in not respecting Chalice, and for also being too worried about TKS ripping my Ulamog. If I had removed his Chalice as I should have, the best thing he could have done would be one of two plays:
-Drop a Temple and a Reality Smasher, taking out Karn while leaving a four-turn clock. This would allow me to have Ulamog in two turns, barring a TKS, but even then I would have been able to set myself up for success much better with what I had in my hand.
-Drop any land and a Thought-Knot Seer, ripping my Ulamog. I got the impression that he was a bit light on lands, so this was the option I was expecting (and that he in fact was banking on). Even if he does this, though, I can remove my own Karn to exile that TKS and draw a card, worst-case, then have all of that mana to again set myself up with what I had in my hand.
It was odd that he was running a board line against Tron that packed both Spellskites and Stony Silence, but his line was perfect once I exiled his land instead of Chalice. Had I simply respected that Chalice, I would have likely won that match.
if we do this, we have to cut our GQ and replace it with another forest and mirror matches will be based on draw luck.
Tron variants
Eldrazi variants
Burn
Infect
Living End
Bloodwalkers
RG Ponza
LEGACY
Turbo Depths
Big Eldrazi
GXTronGX
RWxBurnRWx
We can play both Ghost Quarter and Pithing Needle in the mirror; having both allows us to be flexible and adaptable depending on what is going on with the game state. If we are ahead and worried about them fetching a GQ to slow us down, then Pithing Needle on it is a solid defensive play. If we are behind, we can fetch for our own GQ, or just Needle naming Map, Karn, or O-Stone, depending on what we are most worried about at a given moment. Naming Needle to stop opposing GQs doesn't render our 1-2 copies worthless, as they can still tap for mana, or come back online if they manage to remove our Needle.
I played it as a two-of in the board for about a week. Although I love the card, I found that when I really need it (the early game), it's just too slow to be effective. I like that it's never dead, but I feel like we need more answers, not threats.
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So last night I ended up going 2-2:
Grixis Control beat me 2-0; thirteen mana and a handful of colored spells on weird draws sealed me out the first game, then he was able to use Fulminator Mage six(!) times against me along with Surgical Extraction during the second. Since people know Tron is on the upswing, we really have to be prepared for Fulminators and GQs, and not having Pithing Needle in my sideboard really hurt here.
Round two was against Blooicide. Game one he killed me on turn four; game two he killed me on turn three. Both times I had O-Stone and Ugin ready to be active the following turn, and in the second game I had none of my three Warping Wails or four Bolts to hang in there.
Round three was against Norin Sisters. Drew decently, encountered no oppressive hate cards, and stemarolled. Gave my opponent some ideas for how to improve the deck.
Round four was against Mono Black Control. Drew decently, encountered no oppressive hate cards, and steamrolled. Gave my opponent some ideas for how to improve the deck.
So all of the toying around with Blood Moon and such immediately went out the window. That slot should definitely have been 2-3 Pithing Needle for as long as people expect Tron to be good, which will probably be for awhile. Spellskite would have been great against Blooicide, as the ability to speedbump and deter pump decks of all sorts means it's coming back in. Blood Moon is only really good against decks we're close to even with or better, so as fun as it was to test out, I need the points against bad matches more.
As far as the maindeck goes, I've switched back from 4x Lightning Bolt (along with 2x Kozilek's Return) to 2x each of Spellskite and Pyroclasm. No one locally is playing Cheeri0s yet, which is where I really want to have Bolt, and I'd rather have faster go-wide tools and answers that are hard to deal with pre-board. If that deck doesn't receive a ban during the next cycle, Bolts will come back in some number.
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Sanctum of Ugin
2 Forest
2 Spellskite
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 World Breaker
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Chromatic Star
4 Expedition Map
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Oblivion Stone
2 Kozilek's Return
2 Pyroclasm
4 Karn Liberated
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Spellskite
1 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Nature's Claim
3 Warping Wail
2-3 Thought-Knot Seer would be nice, but I don't feel like I have the room at the moment. That third Spellskite might turn into one along with the third Needle, but in matches where I want Needle, I want it early and often. The other option is to leave Emrakul, the Promised End in that slot to increase threat density, along with all of the reasons I mentioned in my previous post.
Lastly, Thragtusk is out of my list. Although I love the card in and of itself, it seems too often to be a turn too slow against Burn (especially since Atarka's Command and Skullcrack almost always turn off the lifegain trigger). I don't feel like I really need it to beat GBx or anything with Path (that isn't sided in from Burn), and not being able to fetch it hurts as well. TKS used to help in this slot instead, so I really need to test against Burn and see how this configuration fares.
12 Urza Lands
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sanctum of Ugin
[Creatures]
3 Wurmcoil Engine
2 World Breaker
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Karn Liberated
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
[Spells]
8 Chromatic Eggs
4 Ancient Stirrings
2 Faithless Looting
4 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Pyroclasm
4 Oblivion Stone
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Nature's Claim
2 Warping Wail
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
The meta was:
2 RG Tron
1 Jund
1 Junk
1 BUG Control / Blue Jund
1 Eggs
1 Grixis Control
1 Grixis Delver
1 BW Eldrazi
1 Affinity
1 Tezzerator
1 Bant Goodstuff
ROUND 1: vs Grixis Control - 2:0
First game I won via Ulamog, I just overvalued him when he ran out of counterspells.
SB:
-3 Pyroclasm
-2 Oblivion Stone
+2 Relic of Progenitus
+2 Warping Wail
+1 Emrakul, the Promised End
Second game, I resolved a Karn on turn 6+, restarted with another Karn exiled from my hand, restarted with the new turn 0 Karn with Emrakul exiled from my hand and that's it.
ROUND 2: vs Bant Goodstuff - 2:1
First game he crushed me with a Knight of the Reliquary and multiple Ghost Quarters
SB:
-1 Ulamog
-1 World Breaker
-1 Karn
-1 Oblivion Stone
+2 Relic
+Life from the Loam
+Crucible of Worlds
Game 2, I eliminated his Board with a turn 3 Pyroclasm, followed by Karn, Wurmcoil Engine and more.
Game 3, he ran out of gas early on due to a Oblivion Stone ready on my turn 4, then lost to Ugin and Wurmcoil.
ROUND 3: vs Grixis Delver - 2:0
First game, my opponent was screwed on 2 lands when I started to go big. Karn triggered Sanctum to find Ulamog, casting that was game over.
SB:
-4 Karn Liberated
-2 Oblivion Stone
-1 Ulamog
+2 Relic
+2 Warping Wail
+Loam
+Crucible
+Emrakul
Game 2, he kept me off of tron with 3 Molten Rain. But I resolved a Wurmcoil Engine, then restored Tron and got Karn and Ulamog out. That was round 3.
ROUND 4: vs RG Tron - 2:1
First Game, I used my tutors to search up Ghost Quarter. But I drew no more tutors and just the wrong lands, then my opponent resolved a Karn first.
SB:
-3 Pyroclasm
-4 Oblivion Stone
-3 Wurmcoil Engine
-1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
-1 Chromatic Sphere
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Warping Wail
+3 Nature's Claim
+Ancient Grudge
+Loam
+Crucible
+2 TKS
Second game, I had a Surgical and an Ancient Stirrings in my opening hand. Stirrings found Expedition Map, Map found Ghost Quarter and on turn 3, I exiled his Towers. On turn 4 I resolved Karn and he scoops.
Third Game, I had a strong starting 7 without GQ, and my opponent had a weak start. I resolved Karn on turn 3, and World Breaker on turn 4. GG's were mine.
Afterwards, we discussed a bit about RG Tron and I saw that my opponent had a quite sub-optimal SB (and just 12 cards) and some minor main deck choices (just 1 Oblivion Stone, Karplusan Forest instead of Groves etc). But he wanted to improve his deck. This was his first competitive tournament, and he made 3rd place after all.
So my stream of bad luck seems to have ended. I had some interesting decks to face, had to count my lines of play a bit and so on, and I finished 1st place. I am very confident in the addition of Faithless Lootings, though I discarded very wrong in a game against Bant Goodstuff (I would probably have lost either way). On the other hand, especially the late-game important flashback ability was the nuts.
Greetings!
Emrakul, the Promised End is for the occursion of combo or control decks. Against combo, the cast-trigger should win the game, and control will struggle to come back afterwards. Plus Newrakul still is a fast clock, the original was just too bad as an early topdeck and too hard to reliably find during the lategame.
And Lootings is great, does real work for me. Playing just 3 early removals didn't turn out bad yet, but I am already thinking about a change to go back to 4 again.
Greetings
I played the same deck as previously. Overall I think RG Tron is not the best version. I would have loved to have had Push or Brutality many times over the 2 Kozileks returns, which pretty much did nothing the whole tournament, and were terrible top decks in some situations. There was a lot of Eldrazi Tron and Bant Eldrazi floating around, although I played a fairly nice range of decks. Walking Ballista is a card I found to be either stellar or ok, but it was never bad. I personally think we can drop Spellskite in favour of the ballista as Infect was pretty much nowhere to be seen and push makes spellskite worse.
I started day with 2 byes.
Round 3: I was matched up against Bant Eldrazi. Lost this match 1-2 fairly even, but in both games my opponent won he Thought-Knot seered me more that three times to strip my hand of anything useful. Ended up flooding. Eldrazi temple can make this deck way too fast and stirrings adds an insane amount of consistency. It tends to highlight the problems Tron has with drawing all or no threats. Game 1 drew both Kozi returns which just sat in my hand.
Round 4: 2-0. I came up against an Esper midrange/walkers deck. A very midrange deck running Narset for card advantage and Gideon for pressure. Essentially he tapped out for his 4CMC walkers and was pretty much dead to turn 4 Karn game 1, and turn 5 Ugin the next. Seems very favoured to Tron.
Round 5: 2-0. Played a classic Jund deck. Walking Ballista was excellent in this matchup, essentially threatening his Lilliana's until I could assemble Tron on turn 4 on game 1 and Turn 4 again game two. I think my opponent got unlucky as he hit me with multiple inquisitions and only 1 thoughtseize. I was carfull to try and play my hand out asap to make his discard dead though.
Round 6. 2-0. Grixis Delver. This is what the Ballista is for. Opponent got Turn 1 Delver both games, which hit me for a bit, but once I got past a few counters which I baited out with maps, scrying and stirrings, I landed a Ballista on 4 counters which is crazy good once Tron is assembled. G2, I went down to 1 before stabilising with a Karn followed up with an Ugin.
Round 7. 2-0. Black-White tokens: Turn three tron both games to make this an easy win. G1, Ugin did the job on turn 4. Opponent did manage to get a potential turn 4 kill game 2, with multiple anthems and 5 spirits out, but Ugin once again did the job.
Round 8. 0-2. Eldrazi Tron: Again G1 opponent has T1- Matter Reshaper into T2 Thought-Knot, into T3 Thoughtknot into T4 Reality Smasher...not much I could do. Game two he T1 Reshaper, T2 Chalice on one, pretty much killing me, T3 Thought-Knot into T4 Reality Smasher. Again Eldrazi Temple is just way too good and I oouldn't muster much resistance.
Round 9. 0-2. Bant Eldrazi. Absolute nightmare matchup. Opponent played very well and I made two big mistakes. G1 I got T2 Thought-Knoted, and then they just had answers for everything. Played two wurmcoils, both pathed.. and dead to Reality Smashers after. G2 again an Early Thought-Knot which slowed me down enough for him to land a Eldrazi Displacer which effectively neutered Karn and Ulamog.
Day 2:
Round 10. Opponent didn't turn up. Woot
Round 11. 1-2. Burn. Urrghh. Essentially nut draws for my opponent both games. G1 - I was on the draw, Opponent: Swiftspear, Swiftspear + Bolt, Goblin Guide + Boros Charm, Boros Charm to finish me... G2 I was on the play and managed to survive on 3 life after I put the shields up with Spellskite and Walking Ballista, a turn 4 Wurmcoil took me to safety. G3 Opponent on play - Goblin Guide, Swiftspear + Lava Spike, Boros Charm + Bolt, Boros Charm to finish. I managed to assemble T3 Tron, but has nothing to cast (I did not see Kozileks return once).
Round 11. 0-2. Zoo. Got Absolutely destroyed. Opponent on the play G1, Nacatal, Nacatal + Goblin Guide, Atarka's Command. G2 Opponent, Nacatal, Nacatal + Nacatal, Destructive Revelry on my Spellskite + Bolt etc etc. Drew Koz return, but useless against the 3/3 Nacatyl.
Round 12. 2-0. Abzan. Fairly easy matchup, some hand disruption and I when down to 6 life game 1, until I stabilised with Karn, then Ulamog next turn which forced a conscession. G2 pretty much the same. Stony silence turn 2, but I was ready with Nature's Claim. Then O'stone for his board, followed by a Karn.
Round 13. 2-0. Chord. Not sure if Kiki or not, but he did run Magus of the Moon main deck. Once I got O'stone online he chorded for Selfless spirit to save his board, but Walking Ballista managed to clear the field afterward, leaving me able to play Karn. I started attacking his hand with Karn, exiling a Voice and a Scooze, and he decided to start attacking my life total with 3 creatures and ignored Karn. I Ultimated Karn leaving me with the Voice and the Scooze in play which provided a quick clock to force the consession. G2. Managed to land a Turn 5 Ugin to clear the board multiple times, until he had nothing left so I was able to ultimate Ugin for the win.
Round 14. U Tron. Lost game round to a Mindslaver T5, where he pretty much countered everything I did until that point. He played my Spellskite, Ballista's himself, which he then redircted to the Skite to make me pay lethal. G2 He resorted to Crucible and Ghost quarter to try and kill my tron pieces, but I had plenty of search effects which rendered it pointless. He sacrificed his own board presence to slow me down, which was a mistake in my opinion. G3 he mulled to 4, so wasn't much of a match.
But anyway. I'm reasonably happy with how I went. The games I lost I couldn't do much with the deck I had. I think if I was playing GB I would have had more game against the aggro decks, but against my opponents draws I think that kills pretty much anyone regardless. Eldrazi tron seems to be the problem, at they are just too fast, too big and too consistent for Ugin or Karn to be decent.
@finks: I have some experience with Death Shadow, but from the days before GitProbe was banned. It is just plain too fast in my opinion. You can, if useful in your overall meta, go up to 4 Spellskites, 4 Wurmcoils and 4 Clasms and 4 O-Stones in your 75, alongside some additional lifegain (4 Nature's Claim in the SB, probably more). But you will still need to draw it in time. So I think there is just another MU like Infect in terms of win-percentage.
I have only lost to EldraziTron once, and both games they had two TKS on the board by T3. Otherwise, the matchup feels pretty good. Gx Tron is better at assembling the UrzaLands, and Karn and O-Stone do some serious work.
I once blew out a grixis player by blind naming fulminator mage G2 with a turn 1 pithing needle. He was pissed as hell.
EDH: -UG Ezuri-UGZegana-BRMogis-WUBRGRamos-WBREdgar-URLocust God-WUBRBreya-BMacar-WUBrago-WEvra-
i do that all the time.
Tron variants
Eldrazi variants
Burn
Infect
Living End
Bloodwalkers
RG Ponza
LEGACY
Turbo Depths
Big Eldrazi