Congrats to Joe for T8 at GPLA. Bolts were a cool choice, as were seeing Grafdigger's out of the side. However, the most impressive card seemed to be Sudden Shock. Had Joe had one of those for the Inkmoth, the game would've gone completely differently.
One thing I noticed in the last game, though, was that Joe died T8G3 (largely) due to his inability to answer a manland; recently, we've been cutting GQs for Sanctums in several decks without giving it a second thought. However, with the recent rise of manlands in both Folk and Infect, is it worth running some number of GQs in the 75? For example, Joe had a Map in hand when the Inkmoth hit took him to 9 poison; had he had a GQ in his deck, he could've searched it and took out the Nexus, waiting a turn to crack his O-Stone at a comfortable 19 life.
This isn't a ding on Joe's list; I think it was very good, and there might not have been room for the 1-2 GQ. But going forward, is it a card that should be run? Interesting thoughts.
Congrats to Joe for T8 at GPLA. Bolts were a cool choice, as were seeing Grafdigger's out of the side. However, the most impressive card seemed to be Sudden Shock. Had Joe had one of those for the Inkmoth, the game would've gone completely differently.
One thing I noticed in the last game, though, was that Joe died T8G3 (largely) due to his inability to answer a manland; recently, we've been cutting GQs for Sanctums in several decks without giving it a second thought. However, with the recent rise of manlands in both Folk and Infect, is it worth running some number of GQs in the 75? For example, Joe had a Map in hand when the Inkmoth hit took him to 9 poison; had he had a GQ in his deck, he could've searched it and took out the Nexus, waiting a turn to crack his O-Stone at a comfortable 19 life.
This isn't a ding on Joe's list; I think it was very good, and there might not have been room for the 1-2 GQ. But going forward, is it a card that should be run? Interesting thoughts.
I asked him about an hour ago on his Twitch steam about GQ, he said he gave a lot of thought about that, but at the end, he never missed the GQ.
Congrats to Joe for T8 at GPLA. Bolts were a cool choice, as were seeing Grafdigger's out of the side. However, the most impressive card seemed to be Sudden Shock. Had Joe had one of those for the Inkmoth, the game would've gone completely differently.
One thing I noticed in the last game, though, was that Joe died T8G3 (largely) due to his inability to answer a manland; recently, we've been cutting GQs for Sanctums in several decks without giving it a second thought. However, with the recent rise of manlands in both Folk and Infect, is it worth running some number of GQs in the 75? For example, Joe had a Map in hand when the Inkmoth hit took him to 9 poison; had he had a GQ in his deck, he could've searched it and took out the Nexus, waiting a turn to crack his O-Stone at a comfortable 19 life.
This isn't a ding on Joe's list; I think it was very good, and there might not have been room for the 1-2 GQ. But going forward, is it a card that should be run? Interesting thoughts.
I did a fair share of testing on GQs instead of sanctum but in most midrange and control matchups sanctum shines when getting another threat upon triggering where GQ is more directed to the infect or colonnade/raging ravine match up which we already have karn, ulamog, worldbreaker to answer. we also have pithing needle as well.
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Eldrazi variants
Burn
Infect
Living End
Bloodwalkers
RG Ponza
Maybe I'm wrong... But I thought that when you redirect a spell with Spellskite, if the target is not legal (because Skite is dead or something) before resolving the stack, the spell recovers its original target, doesn't it? I mean, if you redirect to the Spellskite 9 times the Lightning Storm, at the time 2 Spellskite is dead, and the other 7 times it targets you as always. This, or a L2 judge friend of mine must read again the rulebook...
So far as I know, your friend is mistaken. Lightning Storm resolves as one effect with whatever damage and final target results from activations. So it hits Spellskite just once for full damage.
Lightning Storm is confusing because what you will have on the stack is first of all the spell itself, then a series of Lightning Storm activations that modify that spell. As each such activation resolves, it will put two counters on the spell and change its target. What that means is that first of all if the caster doesn't hold priority and put a lethal number of activations on the stack, you can just choose to take the damage and live; and secondly that if you want to switch the spell to hitting something else, you must let all the Lightning Storm activations resolve and then - before the spell itself resolves - add your redirect. With Spellskite in play, your redirect is the Spellskite activation. Caster could then let your Spellskite activation resolve and then add a Lightning Storm activation to retarget you. But you can in response let that Lightning Storm activation resolve, and add one another Spellskite activation. And so on... until finally you both let the spell resolve. If Spellskite is the final target it takes all the damage.
That's why Ad Nauseam is playing one or two removal spells - to get rid of your Spellskite before it can redirect. The important point is that Lightning Storm doesn't deal damage at each of its activations, but only once when the spell itself resolves. Something to try is sandbagging a land, and then counting their lands as they match your Spellskite redirects...
Congrats to Joe for T8 at GPLA. Bolts were a cool choice, as were seeing Grafdigger's out of the side. However, the most impressive card seemed to be Sudden Shock. Had Joe had one of those for the Inkmoth, the game would've gone completely differently.
One thing I noticed in the last game, though, was that Joe died T8G3 (largely) due to his inability to answer a manland; recently, we've been cutting GQs for Sanctums in several decks without giving it a second thought. However, with the recent rise of manlands in both Folk and Infect, is it worth running some number of GQs in the 75? For example, Joe had a Map in hand when the Inkmoth hit took him to 9 poison; had he had a GQ in his deck, he could've searched it and took out the Nexus, waiting a turn to crack his O-Stone at a comfortable 19 life.
This isn't a ding on Joe's list; I think it was very good, and there might not have been room for the 1-2 GQ. But going forward, is it a card that should be run? Interesting thoughts.
I did a fair share of testing on GQs instead of sanctum but in most midrange and control matchups sanctum shines when getting another threat upon triggering where GQ is more directed to the infect or colonnade/raging ravine match up which we already have karn, ulamog, worldbreaker to answer. we also have pithing needle as well.
GQ isn't (primarily) for Colonnade/Ravine. It's a card that's there for Infect, Affinity, and Mutavault decks - decks where tutoring for it can help you survive for the long game. The fact it serves double-duty in killing the more expensive manlands lategame is nice, but it' primarily for giving you outs against the extremely aggressive offenses that Affinity/Infect/Mutavault can mount.
Against Affinity it can fully absorb 9 points of poison - the poison kill would've been off the table if Joe had it in his deck. Now, it may still not be the right choice, but saying that it's not good enough due to Karn and Ulamog doesn't really get to why you'd play GQ.
If GQ was for late-game lands, we'd play Tectonic Edge instead. It's too hedge against early-game lands that can kill us otherwise.
Right now I'm interested about:
1. What's the best land-base for this deck? Is it Sanctums, GQs, and/or Wreckages? This sounds like a small change, but choosing Sanctum or no Sanctum vastly changes the makeup and the approach to building your deck. With Sanctums, you're incentivized to play the maximum number of large threats as possible, with as little "grease" (smaller cards/lands that are bad topdecks late game). On the other hand, not running Sanctums really decreases your lategame power, for the benefit for a little more consistency early game. This also determines whether you have the room for more Thought-Knots and Coils or if you're playing lots of Worldbreakers and Ugins.
2. What's the best "disruption" piece for this deck? Bolt, Clasm, Spout, or K-Return? Bolt's obviously the new kid on the block, but even Joe said he wasn't able to use it enough to give it props over the GP weekend (not that it was bad, but he played against decks where all four would've been dead). Bolt actually has a surprising number of advantages over Clasm and Spout; largely, it's very cheap and instant speed. That gives it a lot more power against Affinity, Infect, and Burn; traditionally poor MUs for us. The one I'd like to highlight here though is K-Return. If you're playing Sanctum anyway, you're reaching very near the critical mass necessary in order to flash it back, which is big game. In addition, it retains Bolt's instant speed. Yes, it is the most expensive of the three, but the instant speed is huge right now. It's great vs Affinity, Infect (if you live long enough), and Abzan Company/Naya Chord (which can sometimes randomly win off of eot Company/Chord combos). It can also randomly shut off Etched Champions and Burrington Forge-Tenders. I've had great experiences with the card, and I think it has lots of potential.
3. What are some SB cards we could be missing? This was honestly my biggest takeaway from Joe's list this weekend; Sudden Shock and Grafdigger's Cage were cards that were completely flying under my radar, and are absolutely fantastic. I wonder if there's anything else we could be missing right now?
Congrats to Joe for T8 at GPLA. Bolts were a cool choice, as were seeing Grafdigger's out of the side. However, the most impressive card seemed to be Sudden Shock. Had Joe had one of those for the Inkmoth, the game would've gone completely differently.
You need to keep a Poker face and make sure your opponent clearly passes priority before declaring Sudden Strike, of course.
Still deciding about GQ in or out, i'll be testing a bit more. I don't like SGW, it's only good if u're already in "trouble".
2- This is really meta call, i personally don't play Clasms anymore, too many x/3 in my field and most of the time you have to remove just 1 creature. K.Return is not good, 3 mana for 2 damage is bad, the 2nd text is good but you only have 4 big Eldrazi so, that might not happen alot, Spout is ages better. Some months ago i won a GPT with 2 Bolts/2 Spouts, i really liked that.
3- The one SB that is missing from Joe's list and for me, it is the BEST SB card we can have is Pithing Needle, last week Joe was using a Bojuka Bog at his SB for Dredge shenanigans, i liked the idea if you expect that in your meta.
Slivortal, I agree with your points on GQ but w/o the eye, the part missing since the banning is the searching of a threat after assembling the tron lands and with the increasing permission cards, the on cast effect matters a lot. karn to search ulamog or world breaker is really great. hard for them to recover for sure.
again, its about the infrastructure of your tron, I think it can have a number of builds versus last time that its a bit more straight forward due to the eye ugin plan.
as for the removals, im using the kozilek return because 1) I have the sanctum + 4 eldrazi creature build to synergize 2) its searchable using ancient stirrings and devoid 3) the trigger ability, even if he countered or discarded it, it can still comeback and wipe the board 4) its instant speed.
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RG Ponza
I beg to differ on Kozilek's return. The instant speed is what makes it great. Can board wipe affinity, hits etched champion, and their activated inkmoths, and if you're staring down Jund, the 5 damage flashback really helps.
I beg to differ on Kozilek's return. The instant speed is what makes it great. Can board wipe affinity, hits etched champion, and their activated inkmoths, and if you're staring down Jund, the 5 damage flashback really helps.
But what you have to see is, Affinity is not a bad MU, it's 50/50, talking about Joe's list, for exemple, he has 4 bolts, 3 N.Clains and 3 Wails, that's 10 cards ta hit Affinity hard, not counting the Stones. Our SB again'st Affinity is already really good, and our MD is good, you have to fight decks that are hard for us to beat. Last but not least, Jund is like a walk in the park anyway, so we don't need something that is good against then and won't help us agains't Zoo decks, for exemple.
I beg to differ on Kozilek's return. The instant speed is what makes it great. Can board wipe affinity, hits etched champion, and their activated inkmoths, and if you're staring down Jund, the 5 damage flashback really helps.
But what you have to see is, Affinity is not a bad MU, it's 50/50, talking about Joe's list, for exemple, he has 4 bolts, 3 N.Clains and 3 Wails, that's 10 cards ta hit Affinity hard, not counting the Stones. Our SB again'st Affinity is already really good, and our MD is good, you have to fight decks that are hard for us to beat. Last but not least, Jund is like a walk in the park anyway, so we don't need something that is good against then and won't help us agains't Zoo decks, for exemple.
Only once have I lost to Jund in the past 2 years....
Someone had 4 fulminators and 4 K Commands in the main with 4 Ghost Quarters... It was a slaughter.... Never seen anything like it because he lost to all the other decks like Elves. While it was good vs a deck like Tron, it's worthless against most others... Nobody in their right mind should be packing that much LD... But he did it especially for me. So I guess I should be flattered to think me a threat...
Course, this was also while I was playing Tron and U/W Eldrazi, so I could see his point.
And... Is Blood Moon really a big deal? I've faced off against it, rug player made a bad mistake once... No basic islands or forests and never drew a single one so he was locked out of two colors while I played one land after another and had no need to Nature's Claim them. Had two in my hand to blow up my own O Stone and Star in case I needed a quick life gain. Yeah... Teased him about it, said I didn't need to touch it, I had enough lands and he was shut out of 2 colors and he couldn't remand my Karn..
I lost twice at GP Charlotte, though I realize I was sideboarding wrong, fixed it, and wrecked Jund in a win-a-box. Ultimately Karn with a Ulamog under him.
1. What's the best land-base for this deck? Is it Sanctums, GQs, and/or Wreckages? This sounds like a small change, but choosing Sanctum or no Sanctum vastly changes the makeup and the approach to building your deck. With Sanctums, you're incentivized to play the maximum number of large threats as possible, with as little "grease" (smaller cards/lands that are bad topdecks late game). On the other hand, not running Sanctums really decreases your lategame power, for the benefit for a little more consistency early game. This also determines whether you have the room for more Thought-Knots and Coils or if you're playing lots of Worldbreakers and Ugins.
2. What's the best "disruption" piece for this deck? Bolt, Clasm, Spout, or K-Return? Bolt's obviously the new kid on the block, but even Joe said he wasn't able to use it enough to give it props over the GP weekend (not that it was bad, but he played against decks where all four would've been dead). Bolt actually has a surprising number of advantages over Clasm and Spout; largely, it's very cheap and instant speed. That gives it a lot more power against Affinity, Infect, and Burn; traditionally poor MUs for us. The one I'd like to highlight here though is K-Return. If you're playing Sanctum anyway, you're reaching very near the critical mass necessary in order to flash it back, which is big game. In addition, it retains Bolt's instant speed. Yes, it is the most expensive of the three, but the instant speed is huge right now. It's great vs Affinity, Infect (if you live long enough), and Abzan Company/Naya Chord (which can sometimes randomly win off of eot Company/Chord combos). It can also randomly shut off Etched Champions and Burrington Forge-Tenders. I've had great experiences with the card, and I think it has lots of potential.
3. What are some SB cards we could be missing? This was honestly my biggest takeaway from Joe's list this weekend; Sudden Shock and Grafdigger's Cage were cards that were completely flying under my radar, and are absolutely fantastic. I wonder if there's anything else we could be missing right now?
I am playing 2 Sanctum of Ugin with 4 Karn Liberated, 2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, 2 World Breaker and 2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger. In my opinion you cannot assess these cards in isolation. Sanctum is for closing out games (cast one monster and tutor up another: win). But it isn't worth playing unless you have action to find with it, for which I feel four is both the correct and minimum count.
Sanctum in that context then plays into Kozilek's Return by giving you more ability to trigger it again from the graveyard. I play 3 Kozilek's Return and would not go back to Pyroclasm. It is true that there are things Kozilek's won't kill so in my view the competing card is Firespout. Lightning Bolt is a very intelligent include, but ultimately I feel it is wrong for GR Tron to have point-removal in this slot: it does better with sweepers. Sudden Shock is an SB card, not MD.
Pithing Needle has been mentioned and is the obvious SB card. Also 2-3 Warping Wail if you don't already run them. They are good against Crumble to Dust, and you can prevent a recast of a Snapcaster Mage or Vendilion Clique. Worst case you can chump with them. I was running 1 in MD but found I didn't really need it and an extra creature - Spellskite or Thragtusk - felt more valuable. But they remain invaluable in SB.
I beg to differ on Kozilek's return. The instant speed is what makes it great. Can board wipe affinity, hits etched champion, and their activated inkmoths, and if you're staring down Jund, the 5 damage flashback really helps.
But what you have to see is, Affinity is not a bad MU, it's 50/50, talking about Joe's list, for exemple, he has 4 bolts, 3 N.Clains and 3 Wails, that's 10 cards ta hit Affinity hard, not counting the Stones. Our SB again'st Affinity is already really good, and our MD is good, you have to fight decks that are hard for us to beat. Last but not least, Jund is like a walk in the park anyway, so we don't need something that is good against then and won't help us agains't Zoo decks, for exemple.
MU's not terrible, but it's not 50/50 either. We're not fast enough to race them, and none of our cheap MD removal hits Cranial Plating (the one card that really matters), so G1's 40/60 at best. Postboard it gets better, but even then you're not beating 50/50; you have to draw the right removal, fast Tron, and hope that they just don't have it all. It's not a terrible MU like Infect, but I definitely wouldn't call it 50/50. It's overall between 45/55 and 40/60 depending on what you bring to the table.
The super-nice thing about K-Return is that you hit all their dudes and don't leave them with anything to Plating. And unless they have anything to play postcombat (unlikely, since they try to drop hand to pump Plating), that buys you at least two turns - which should be enough to get Tron rolling.
And... Is Blood Moon really a big deal? I've faced off against it, rug player made a bad mistake once... No basic islands or forests and never drew a single one so he was locked out of two colors while I played one land after another and had no need to Nature's Claim them. Had two in my hand to blow up my own O Stone and Star in case I needed a quick life gain. Yeah... Teased him about it, said I didn't need to touch it, I had enough lands and he was shut out of 2 colors and he couldn't remand my Karn..
It's been discussed a few times in this thread, but Blood Moon's one of the worst answers to Tron. It's only good if the opponent can provide significant pressure that isn't also weak to O-Stone. The existence of O-Stone in the deck means that it will eventually be answered, and Wurmcoil comes out surprisingly fast. If your opponent's not doing anything T3, that gives us a ton of time to capitalize on our opponents' slow development.
The SB cards we really have to worry about are Stony Silence and Crumble to Dust, as well as Surgical Extraction backed by LD (followed by targeted LD ala Fulminator/GQ). These are the primary cards you should be thinking about as you SB; you can pay Blood Moon some mind, but it's not a very scary card in general. Blood Moon's only good when it locks a player out of casting spells, and given that our cards are colorless, we'll be casting them eventually.
1. What's the best land-base for this deck? Is it Sanctums, GQs, and/or Wreckages? This sounds like a small change, but choosing Sanctum or no Sanctum vastly changes the makeup and the approach to building your deck. With Sanctums, you're incentivized to play the maximum number of large threats as possible, with as little "grease" (smaller cards/lands that are bad topdecks late game). On the other hand, not running Sanctums really decreases your lategame power, for the benefit for a little more consistency early game. This also determines whether you have the room for more Thought-Knots and Coils or if you're playing lots of Worldbreakers and Ugins.
2. What's the best "disruption" piece for this deck? Bolt, Clasm, Spout, or K-Return? Bolt's obviously the new kid on the block, but even Joe said he wasn't able to use it enough to give it props over the GP weekend (not that it was bad, but he played against decks where all four would've been dead). Bolt actually has a surprising number of advantages over Clasm and Spout; largely, it's very cheap and instant speed. That gives it a lot more power against Affinity, Infect, and Burn; traditionally poor MUs for us. The one I'd like to highlight here though is K-Return. If you're playing Sanctum anyway, you're reaching very near the critical mass necessary in order to flash it back, which is big game. In addition, it retains Bolt's instant speed. Yes, it is the most expensive of the three, but the instant speed is huge right now. It's great vs Affinity, Infect (if you live long enough), and Abzan Company/Naya Chord (which can sometimes randomly win off of eot Company/Chord combos). It can also randomly shut off Etched Champions and Burrington Forge-Tenders. I've had great experiences with the card, and I think it has lots of potential.
3. What are some SB cards we could be missing? This was honestly my biggest takeaway from Joe's list this weekend; Sudden Shock and Grafdigger's Cage were cards that were completely flying under my radar, and are absolutely fantastic. I wonder if there's anything else we could be missing right now?
I am playing 2 Sanctum of Ugin with 4 Karn Liberated, 2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, 2 World Breaker and 2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger. In my opinion you cannot assess these cards in isolation. Sanctum is for closing out games (cast one monster and tutor up another: win). But it isn't worth playing unless you have action to find with it, for which I feel four is both the correct and minimum count.
Sanctum in that context then plays into Kozilek's Return by giving you more ability to trigger it again from the graveyard. I play 3 Kozilek's Return and would not go back to Pyroclasm. It is true that there are things Kozilek's won't kill so in my view the competing card is Firespout. Lightning Bolt is a very intelligent include, but ultimately I feel it is wrong for GR Tron to have point-removal in this slot: it does better with sweepers. Sudden Shock is an SB card, not MD.
Pithing Needle has been mentioned and is the obvious SB card. Also 2-3 Warping Wail if you don't already run them. They are good against Crumble to Dust, and you can prevent a recast of a Snapcaster Mage or Vendilion Clique. Worst case you can chump with them. I was running 1 in MD but found I didn't really need it and an extra creature - Spellskite or Thragtusk - felt more valuable. But they remain invaluable in SB.
This is all pretty close to my list (which I like), but I currently am testing with 3 MD Worldbreakers and 0 MD Wurmcoils. I might try some kind of 2/2/2 split in the future.
Looking at Joe Lossett's new version, what match ups do you bring in the Forest, and what do you cut for it?
Forest is primarily to counter Path/GQ, and secondarily to allow you to run 20 lands (19's rather low). In MUs where you have lots of dead cards, you can cut anything. If space is really tight and you feel fine with 19 lands, you can generally cut a Grove, especially if you're not running many/any more red cards post-SB. If you cut a nonland, obviously the cut will be MU-dependent.
I am playing 2 Sanctum of Ugin with 4 Karn Liberated, 2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, 2 World Breaker and 2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger. In my opinion you cannot assess these cards in isolation. Sanctum is for closing out games (cast one monster and tutor up another: win). But it isn't worth playing unless you have action to find with it, for which I feel four is both the correct and minimum count.
Sanctum in that context then plays into Kozilek's Return by giving you more ability to trigger it again from the graveyard. I play 3 Kozilek's Return and would not go back to Pyroclasm. It is true that there are things Kozilek's won't kill so in my view the competing card is Firespout. Lightning Bolt is a very intelligent include, but ultimately I feel it is wrong for GR Tron to have point-removal in this slot: it does better with sweepers. Sudden Shock is an SB card, not MD.
Pithing Needle has been mentioned and is the obvious SB card. Also 2-3 Warping Wail if you don't already run them. They are good against Crumble to Dust, and you can prevent a recast of a Snapcaster Mage or Vendilion Clique. Worst case you can chump with them. I was running 1 in MD but found I didn't really need it and an extra creature - Spellskite or Thragtusk - felt more valuable. But they remain invaluable in SB.
This is all pretty close to my list (which I like), but I currently am testing with 3 MD Worldbreakers and 0 MD Wurmcoils. I might try some kind of 2/2/2 split in the future.
It's worth noting that Sanctum of Ugin searches for colourless creatures: including Wurmcoil Engine and Spellskite. For that reason I feel like 2 Wurmcoil, 2 Spellskite, 2 World Breaker and 2 Ulamog has merit. TKS is another option but thus far I haven't liked it as much.
For creatures: I prefer 1 Spellskite, 3 Wurmcoil, 2 World Breaker and 2 Newlanog. And with sanctum you can search for side fatties if you have too! Kozilek 2, Sundering Titan, Emrakul or anything.
For the sweepers: nowadays I prefer to play 2 Firespout and 1 Kozilek Return with of course 3 Oblivion Stone. This way you have sweepers that can kill little creatures in multiple decks with Kozilek beeing one flashable, searchable and growing one. As pyroclasm feels a bit little these days! But if you play TKS as creature I'm not a fan of Kozilek Return!
One thing I noticed in the last game, though, was that Joe died T8G3 (largely) due to his inability to answer a manland; recently, we've been cutting GQs for Sanctums in several decks without giving it a second thought. However, with the recent rise of manlands in both Folk and Infect, is it worth running some number of GQs in the 75? For example, Joe had a Map in hand when the Inkmoth hit took him to 9 poison; had he had a GQ in his deck, he could've searched it and took out the Nexus, waiting a turn to crack his O-Stone at a comfortable 19 life.
This isn't a ding on Joe's list; I think it was very good, and there might not have been room for the 1-2 GQ. But going forward, is it a card that should be run? Interesting thoughts.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
I asked him about an hour ago on his Twitch steam about GQ, he said he gave a lot of thought about that, but at the end, he never missed the GQ.
GXTronGX
RWxBurnRWx
I did a fair share of testing on GQs instead of sanctum but in most midrange and control matchups sanctum shines when getting another threat upon triggering where GQ is more directed to the infect or colonnade/raging ravine match up which we already have karn, ulamog, worldbreaker to answer. we also have pithing needle as well.
Tron variants
Eldrazi variants
Burn
Infect
Living End
Bloodwalkers
RG Ponza
LEGACY
Turbo Depths
Big Eldrazi
Lightning Storm is confusing because what you will have on the stack is first of all the spell itself, then a series of Lightning Storm activations that modify that spell. As each such activation resolves, it will put two counters on the spell and change its target. What that means is that first of all if the caster doesn't hold priority and put a lethal number of activations on the stack, you can just choose to take the damage and live; and secondly that if you want to switch the spell to hitting something else, you must let all the Lightning Storm activations resolve and then - before the spell itself resolves - add your redirect. With Spellskite in play, your redirect is the Spellskite activation. Caster could then let your Spellskite activation resolve and then add a Lightning Storm activation to retarget you. But you can in response let that Lightning Storm activation resolve, and add one another Spellskite activation. And so on... until finally you both let the spell resolve. If Spellskite is the final target it takes all the damage.
That's why Ad Nauseam is playing one or two removal spells - to get rid of your Spellskite before it can redirect. The important point is that Lightning Storm doesn't deal damage at each of its activations, but only once when the spell itself resolves. Something to try is sandbagging a land, and then counting their lands as they match your Spellskite redirects...
Against Affinity it can fully absorb 9 points of poison - the poison kill would've been off the table if Joe had it in his deck. Now, it may still not be the right choice, but saying that it's not good enough due to Karn and Ulamog doesn't really get to why you'd play GQ.
If GQ was for late-game lands, we'd play Tectonic Edge instead. It's too hedge against early-game lands that can kill us otherwise.
Right now I'm interested about:
1. What's the best land-base for this deck? Is it Sanctums, GQs, and/or Wreckages? This sounds like a small change, but choosing Sanctum or no Sanctum vastly changes the makeup and the approach to building your deck. With Sanctums, you're incentivized to play the maximum number of large threats as possible, with as little "grease" (smaller cards/lands that are bad topdecks late game). On the other hand, not running Sanctums really decreases your lategame power, for the benefit for a little more consistency early game. This also determines whether you have the room for more Thought-Knots and Coils or if you're playing lots of Worldbreakers and Ugins.
2. What's the best "disruption" piece for this deck? Bolt, Clasm, Spout, or K-Return? Bolt's obviously the new kid on the block, but even Joe said he wasn't able to use it enough to give it props over the GP weekend (not that it was bad, but he played against decks where all four would've been dead). Bolt actually has a surprising number of advantages over Clasm and Spout; largely, it's very cheap and instant speed. That gives it a lot more power against Affinity, Infect, and Burn; traditionally poor MUs for us. The one I'd like to highlight here though is K-Return. If you're playing Sanctum anyway, you're reaching very near the critical mass necessary in order to flash it back, which is big game. In addition, it retains Bolt's instant speed. Yes, it is the most expensive of the three, but the instant speed is huge right now. It's great vs Affinity, Infect (if you live long enough), and Abzan Company/Naya Chord (which can sometimes randomly win off of eot Company/Chord combos). It can also randomly shut off Etched Champions and Burrington Forge-Tenders. I've had great experiences with the card, and I think it has lots of potential.
3. What are some SB cards we could be missing? This was honestly my biggest takeaway from Joe's list this weekend; Sudden Shock and Grafdigger's Cage were cards that were completely flying under my radar, and are absolutely fantastic. I wonder if there's anything else we could be missing right now?
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Sanctum of Ugin
2 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
Still deciding about GQ in or out, i'll be testing a bit more. I don't like SGW, it's only good if u're already in "trouble".
2- This is really meta call, i personally don't play Clasms anymore, too many x/3 in my field and most of the time you have to remove just 1 creature. K.Return is not good, 3 mana for 2 damage is bad, the 2nd text is good but you only have 4 big Eldrazi so, that might not happen alot, Spout is ages better. Some months ago i won a GPT with 2 Bolts/2 Spouts, i really liked that.
3- The one SB that is missing from Joe's list and for me, it is the BEST SB card we can have is Pithing Needle, last week Joe was using a Bojuka Bog at his SB for Dredge shenanigans, i liked the idea if you expect that in your meta.
GXTronGX
RWxBurnRWx
again, its about the infrastructure of your tron, I think it can have a number of builds versus last time that its a bit more straight forward due to the eye ugin plan.
as for the removals, im using the kozilek return because 1) I have the sanctum + 4 eldrazi creature build to synergize 2) its searchable using ancient stirrings and devoid 3) the trigger ability, even if he countered or discarded it, it can still comeback and wipe the board 4) its instant speed.
Tron variants
Eldrazi variants
Burn
Infect
Living End
Bloodwalkers
RG Ponza
LEGACY
Turbo Depths
Big Eldrazi
But what you have to see is, Affinity is not a bad MU, it's 50/50, talking about Joe's list, for exemple, he has 4 bolts, 3 N.Clains and 3 Wails, that's 10 cards ta hit Affinity hard, not counting the Stones. Our SB again'st Affinity is already really good, and our MD is good, you have to fight decks that are hard for us to beat. Last but not least, Jund is like a walk in the park anyway, so we don't need something that is good against then and won't help us agains't Zoo decks, for exemple.
GXTronGX
RWxBurnRWx
Only once have I lost to Jund in the past 2 years....
Someone had 4 fulminators and 4 K Commands in the main with 4 Ghost Quarters... It was a slaughter....
Course, this was also while I was playing Tron and U/W Eldrazi, so I could see his point.
And... Is Blood Moon really a big deal? I've faced off against it, rug player made a bad mistake once... No basic islands or forests and never drew a single one so he was locked out of two colors while I played one land after another and had no need to Nature's Claim them. Had two in my hand to blow up my own O Stone and Star in case I needed a quick life gain. Yeah... Teased him about it, said I didn't need to touch it, I had enough lands and he was shut out of 2 colors and he couldn't remand my Karn..
Sanctum in that context then plays into Kozilek's Return by giving you more ability to trigger it again from the graveyard. I play 3 Kozilek's Return and would not go back to Pyroclasm. It is true that there are things Kozilek's won't kill so in my view the competing card is Firespout. Lightning Bolt is a very intelligent include, but ultimately I feel it is wrong for GR Tron to have point-removal in this slot: it does better with sweepers. Sudden Shock is an SB card, not MD.
Pithing Needle has been mentioned and is the obvious SB card. Also 2-3 Warping Wail if you don't already run them. They are good against Crumble to Dust, and you can prevent a recast of a Snapcaster Mage or Vendilion Clique. Worst case you can chump with them. I was running 1 in MD but found I didn't really need it and an extra creature - Spellskite or Thragtusk - felt more valuable. But they remain invaluable in SB.
The super-nice thing about K-Return is that you hit all their dudes and don't leave them with anything to Plating. And unless they have anything to play postcombat (unlikely, since they try to drop hand to pump Plating), that buys you at least two turns - which should be enough to get Tron rolling.It's been discussed a few times in this thread, but Blood Moon's one of the worst answers to Tron. It's only good if the opponent can provide significant pressure that isn't also weak to O-Stone. The existence of O-Stone in the deck means that it will eventually be answered, and Wurmcoil comes out surprisingly fast. If your opponent's not doing anything T3, that gives us a ton of time to capitalize on our opponents' slow development.
The SB cards we really have to worry about are Stony Silence and Crumble to Dust, as well as Surgical Extraction backed by LD (followed by targeted LD ala Fulminator/GQ). These are the primary cards you should be thinking about as you SB; you can pay Blood Moon some mind, but it's not a very scary card in general. Blood Moon's only good when it locks a player out of casting spells, and given that our cards are colorless, we'll be casting them eventually.This is all pretty close to my list (which I like), but I currently am testing with 3 MD Worldbreakers and 0 MD Wurmcoils. I might try some kind of 2/2/2 split in the future.Forest is primarily to counter Path/GQ, and secondarily to allow you to run 20 lands (19's rather low). In MUs where you have lots of dead cards, you can cut anything. If space is really tight and you feel fine with 19 lands, you can generally cut a Grove, especially if you're not running many/any more red cards post-SB. If you cut a nonland, obviously the cut will be MU-dependent.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
For creatures: I prefer 1 Spellskite, 3 Wurmcoil, 2 World Breaker and 2 Newlanog. And with sanctum you can search for side fatties if you have too! Kozilek 2, Sundering Titan, Emrakul or anything.
For the sweepers: nowadays I prefer to play 2 Firespout and 1 Kozilek Return with of course 3 Oblivion Stone. This way you have sweepers that can kill little creatures in multiple decks with Kozilek beeing one flashable, searchable and growing one. As pyroclasm feels a bit little these days! But if you play TKS as creature I'm not a fan of Kozilek Return!
1 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Sanctum of Ugin
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plan
4 Urza's Tower
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Chromatic Star
4 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Scrying
Control and Win Cons (12)
4 Karn Liberated
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 World Breaker
2 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Kozilek's Return
3 Oblivion Stone
2 Spellskite
Unknown Cards
1 ?
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW