WOTC tends to call it Jeskai Harbinger, so we could call it that too (English-wise, I think this is technically more correct, but I kinda prefer calling it Jeskai Nahiri).
I'm all for changing the thread name, since that's the most popular version of the deck, and the one with the most results so far. But do we really need to push out the Jeskai Kiki players though?
I've actually always thought Jeskai (or UWR) Harbinger sounded really cool. I just don't see a lot of people use that one so I didn't include it.
As for the Bant Eldrazi match up, I've only ever played against it once, and I honestly thought it was cake... Just blow up all of their creatures with our removal and wraths. I could have been playing against someone who wasn't very good with the deck though, so judge that how you'd like.
I mentioned this a little bit ago when someone, don't remember who, first mentioned they were considering rewriting the Primer post: While the reason Jeskai Control is Tier 1 now is because of Nahiri, I still think that's just the Jeskai Harbinger variation of the deck. Kiki Control and "Creatureless" Jeskai Control aren't worth splitting up into their own threads. Hell, one of the strengths of this archetype is that it is extremely flexible, based on what the expected meta is. It's worth having a short pros/cons section for each, as well, if for no other reason then to demonstrate why most players have decided Harbinger is the strongest version.
On a side not, I've had a black splash for a while in my Harbinger build, for Lingering Souls and Kolaghan's Command in the main and Slaughter Games and Crackling Doom in the side. Here's my land base:
I'm even running 2x Cryptic Command, and I've not been having any issues with color screw, outside of situations where I was doomed anyway.
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Modern WU UWx Control variants RU Affinity
Commander WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV- By "arbitration" I mean "no" WUB Ertai, the Corrupted- Solar Flare URG Riku of 2^n Reflections
Thou they both agree that Anger of the Gods should be somewhere in the 75, hence technically we only operate with 4 flex slots. You could argue that they agree that 1 of Lightning Helix is also in the core, but Peter Ingram said that Helix was the worst card in the deck I believe when he was doing a deck tech. So this is basically their perspective of a Core Jeskai Harbinger list. What you guys think? Both hitting top8 with their list says something about the power of this configuration.
Nahiri is absent from your list there.
Other than that, I agree. This is probably the best *stock* list we've got right now. I've been playing a slightly tweaked variant to a ton of success. The deck is just so good. Nahiri is the best card in the deck in my opinion. She just does it all. I mean, sure sure, she can filter your hand and just win you the game... But did you know she can ACTUALLY kill giant creatures (like Wormcoil Engine or Primeval Titan) that attacked you the turn prior (of which you likely chump blocked with a snappy or soldier token)? Crazy, I know. I think I'm in love.
Cutting the utility lands for a black splash seems incredibly powerful in this, Souls and Nahiri work perfectly together
I like the splash, but there are some odd choices. I would cut cryptic, electro and 1land for more lifegain and early interactions, maybe 1-2helix and more remands/leaks.
Besides his list, he played horrible in the burn matchup and the mirror, having a nahiri on 8 and not pathing the only possible wincon of a tapped out opponent seems awkward. Removing all path against kikki was horrible, moving sb cards to the bottom with the scry is bad and not countering an angel with a wall in play seemed bad as well.
I don't even wane start about the bad sequencing in the burn matchup, it really shows how much experience is requiered to play the deck.
Yeah I agree with everything you say really. My own adjustments I made compared to that list was cutting electrolyze for another lightning helix and cryptic for another mana leak. I'm mostly talking about the combination of nahiri and lingering souls, which might push me over the edge for the black splash where slaughter games alone wouldn't
Would this be good enough against a meta of tron, jund, affinity, infect, bogles, merfolk and token+polymorph?
There's something I don't get it, what are those spreading seas in the side for? What matchup are they for?
I'm thinking of dropping the 2 Geist and 3 Crumble to try out 2 Goblin Dark Dwellers and 3 Boom // Bust, what do you guys think?
Would this be good enough against a meta of tron, jund, affinity, infect, bogles, merfolk and token+polymorph?
I'm thinking of dropping the 2 Geist and 3 Crumble to try out 2 Goblin Dark Dwellers and 3 Boom // Bust, what do you guys think?
Boom could be good. Dark Dwellers is bad in my opinion.
Souls and Nahiri do work well together. However, those slots are covered in what is now the core deck by anger and timely reinforcements. I know that souls has the discard synergy and is better in the grindy matchups, but timely is decent against decks like jund, while timely/anger are fantastic against the aggressive decks. Souls is pretty slow against zoo/burn/etc.
What I'm saying is that I have tested the souls version (I played crackling doom and slaughter games in the side) and while the black definitely has some upside against ad nauseam, scapeshift, jund and bogles, you make the deck less consistent and inflict more pain from your manabase. The loss of consistency hurts every matchup, and is especially prevalent in the aggro matchups(most of the format).
So if your meta consists of mostly the decks listed, then go for the splash, just keep in mind that it isn't all upside.
I think overall, the black splash will increase your grindy matchup percentages but weaken your aggro matchups, you definitely have to take into consideration the extra land damage
I haven't really tried it out myself yet, I do feel that the meta is slowing down a bit and the black splash could have potential
Does anyone know of a sideboard guide for this deck anywhere?
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
Would this be good enough against a meta of tron, jund, affinity, infect, bogles, merfolk and token+polymorph?
There's something I don't get it, what are those spreading seas in the side for? What matchup are they for?
I'm thinking of dropping the 2 Geist and 3 Crumble to try out 2 Goblin Dark Dwellers and 3 Boom // Bust, what do you guys think?
In your case spreading would be good vs tron, infect and bogles and maybe jund. They help against any kind of greedy manabase (even the mirror).
About your meta:
1. In such a meta you want 1utility land (quarter/edge) As it helps a lot vs tron/manlands.
2. Increase your spell snare count, as it should be good against any of these decks.
3. Change 1anger to kozilek's return, as it helps you against polymorph, affinity and eot vialed creatures from fish.
4. I would play at least 2ee, it's good vs infect, affinity, merfolk, tokens and stomps bogles.
5. Not sure about double anger main, it's medicore vs jund, bogles and infect and bad vs tron maybe rather play 1 wrath main in it'S position.
6. Double clique feels like something you'll only need against tron, while being rather bad in the other matchups, if you want to strengthen your tron matchup with a mainboard card you could try shadow of doubt.
I still don't really get it, perhaps you could tell me what are the changes I should make?
Actually, would it be better to go for a more "protect the queen" approach or the plan a plan b approach?
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Current Deck(s): TappedOut Would love to have more input to improve!
If your meta isn't prepared to face Nahiri, go for Protect the Queen. If you suspect to face a lot of potential anti-Nahiri tech, make her your plan B, with plan A going towards a more control heavy focus.
Even with the latter, your opponent still has to respect Nahiri, because if they can't answer her at the right time, she will win you the game.
Does anyone know of a sideboard guide for this deck anywhere?
Take out the cards that are bad, side in the cards that are good.
Really, all sideboard guides do is restrict your ability to sideboard well. Learn which cards are bad in certain matchups by testing. Learn what sideboard cards do the most damage.
For example, you might want to cut down your Nahiris against Jund and put in things like Elspeth. Against fast aggro decks, you can cut slow and expensive cards and side in Timely.
Notable stuff:
- Both lists are playing Ancestral Vision
- Both lists play a reduced amount of counter spells (6-7 compared to Ingrams / GerryTs 9)
- Geist of Saint Traft makes a appearence in both sideboards
Overall both lists are similar to the lists that did well in SCG Dallas however I don´t like the reduction in counterspells in favor of Helixes.
Also glad to see the archetype continuing to put up results in every bigger modern event, took a while and after the initial hype there were a lot of naysayers regarding both AV and Nahiri ^^
Perhaps they expected more Burn/Aggro. If that's the case, I could easily see cutting some counters in exchange for Helix. Helix is so good against the faster decks, that I have a difficult time justifying playing less than at least 2.
But yeah, it's great, right? Nahiri is just so good. I initially disliked AV myself, but I've pretty much come around to it.
What matchups does Geist come in for? Creatureless combo decks? Doesn't it just get blocked by everything?
Is regeneration relevant enough to play Wrath of God instead of more Verdict?
In a meta heavy on Path to Exile, shouldn't we run more than four basics? Between path and GQ, especially versus Snapcasters, eventually those cards become Dispatch and Strip Mine. Against PTE decks, do you deliberately not fetch basics to avoid losing the ramp from Path? The above lists run 9 fetches and 8 or 9 fetchables. Assuming you draw some fetchable lands, and possibly get basics from Paths and GQs, doesn't this just set up completely dead draws for longer games? If you don't have a Nahiri or lighthouse, isn't it just as bad as the Emrakul draw?
If you end up having to discard Emrakul, you then shuffle in all these dead draws (fetches, AVs, leaks). Wouldn't the deck benefit from more graveyard-eaters like Grim Lavamancer, Logic Knot, etc?
What matchups does Geist come in for? Creatureless combo decks? Doesn't it just get blocked by everything?
Is regeneration relevant enough to play Wrath of God instead of more Verdict?
In a meta heavy on Path to Exile, shouldn't we run more than four basics? Between path and GQ, especially versus Snapcasters, eventually those cards become Dispatch and Strip Mine. Against PTE decks, do you deliberately not fetch basics to avoid losing the ramp from Path? The above lists run 9 fetches and 8 or 9 fetchables. Assuming you draw some fetchable lands, and possibly get basics from Paths and GQs, doesn't this just set up completely dead draws for longer games? If you don't have a Nahiri or lighthouse, isn't it just as bad as the Emrakul draw?
If you end up having to discard Emrakul, you then shuffle in all these dead draws (fetches, AVs, leaks). Wouldn't the deck benefit from more graveyard-eaters like Grim Lavamancer, Logic Knot, etc?
How often do we really have to worry about our wraths getting countered? Our wraths are for creature heavy decks, which rarely run counters. Any deck running Collected Company probably has 27 or more creatures, leaving extremely little room for counters. *** also just randomly hoses decks trying to win off of a Thrun, etc.
Also, we run like 5 creatures max (not counting Emma, but it's not like Path can stop her anyways). How does Path to Exile really hurt us?
What matchups does Geist come in for? Creatureless combo decks? Doesn't it just get blocked by everything?
Is regeneration relevant enough to play Wrath of God instead of more Verdict?
Not so much regeneration as regeneration combined with hexproof. Thrun, the Last Troll sucks or is amazing. It's all a matter of perspective.
Tron, Ad Nauseam and other combo decks I imagine are matchups where Geist enters the main deck. I would argue that the Nahiri-Emrakul combo is a little slow for these matchups. I wouldn't board them out (in part or entirely), but I wouldn't want them as my plan A in those matchups either.
In a meta heavy on Path to Exile, shouldn't we run more than four basics? Between path and GQ, especially versus Snapcasters, eventually those cards become Dispatch and Strip Mine. Against PTE decks, do you deliberately not fetch basics to avoid losing the ramp from Path? The above lists run 9 fetches and 8 or 9 fetchables. Assuming you draw some fetchable lands, and possibly get basics from Paths and GQs, doesn't this just set up completely dead draws for longer games? If you don't have a Nahiri or lighthouse, isn't it just as bad as the Emrakul draw?
What are they going to hit with Path? Snapcaster Mage? At that point, Tiago has done his job and getting a land for him on the way out is a win. Also, the deck tends to make it difficult to keep a lot of hard removal in the main deck against it.
Not to mention, in a three color deck with the deck's mana requirements, I'd love to see how you make that work. There are only so many basics you can run that will allow the deck to consistently start on 2 or 3 lands. If you can figure out that puzzle, I would be impressed. It would be pretty awesome for several different matchups I have in mind. Zoo, in particular.
If you end up having to discard Emrakul, you then shuffle in all these dead draws (fetches, AVs, leaks). Wouldn't the deck benefit from more graveyard-eaters like Grim Lavamancer, Logic Knot, etc?
You can also get some overtime out of Snapcaster Mage and anything else that you didn't exile or get exiled. It's not the worst thing in the world.
I am thinking of getting this deck, but I'm not a fan of Remand in Control decks. What purpose does Remand serve here that wouldn't be better filled by another 2-mana counterspell (like running the full 4 Mana Leaks)?
Remand digs for more cards, lands, nahiris, etc.
Remand is here to buy time, not to be a hard counter.
Nahiri is essentially a time bomb here, give her a couple of turns and she can't not win the game.
Being able to "counter" any spell and draw a card off of it for 2 mana is important, especially since at worst, we can discard dead draws to nahiri, so keeping the number of cards in your hand high (and thus keeping your options varied) is very important.
Of course, the card gets better when you play against flashback, or against other counterspells.
Being able to remand something, then snatch it with clique, or if you splash black, take it with thoughtseize/kommand/esper charm is also not a terrible play.
I've actually always thought Jeskai (or UWR) Harbinger sounded really cool. I just don't see a lot of people use that one so I didn't include it.
As for the Bant Eldrazi match up, I've only ever played against it once, and I honestly thought it was cake... Just blow up all of their creatures with our removal and wraths. I could have been playing against someone who wasn't very good with the deck though, so judge that how you'd like.
On a side not, I've had a black splash for a while in my Harbinger build, for Lingering Souls and Kolaghan's Command in the main and Slaughter Games and Crackling Doom in the side. Here's my land base:
1x Desolate Lighthouse
4x Flooded Strand
1x Hallowed Fountain
3x Island
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Sacred Foundry
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Steam Vents
1x Sulfur Falls
2x Watery Grave
I'm even running 2x Cryptic Command, and I've not been having any issues with color screw, outside of situations where I was doomed anyway.
WU UWx Control variants
RU Affinity
Commander
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV- By "arbitration" I mean "no"
WUB Ertai, the Corrupted- Solar Flare
URG Riku of 2^n Reflections
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCYXCfTFtWc
Cutting the utility lands for a black splash seems incredibly powerful in this, Souls and Nahiri work perfectly together
Nahiri is absent from your list there.
Other than that, I agree. This is probably the best *stock* list we've got right now. I've been playing a slightly tweaked variant to a ton of success. The deck is just so good. Nahiri is the best card in the deck in my opinion. She just does it all. I mean, sure sure, she can filter your hand and just win you the game... But did you know she can ACTUALLY kill giant creatures (like Wormcoil Engine or Primeval Titan) that attacked you the turn prior (of which you likely chump blocked with a snappy or soldier token)? Crazy, I know. I think I'm in love.
Yeah I agree with everything you say really. My own adjustments I made compared to that list was cutting electrolyze for another lightning helix and cryptic for another mana leak. I'm mostly talking about the combination of nahiri and lingering souls, which might push me over the edge for the black splash where slaughter games alone wouldn't
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Nahiri, the Harbinger
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Anger of the Gods
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mana Leak
4 Path to Exile
3 Remand
4 Serum Visions
2 Spell Snare
1 Timely Reinforcements
4 Flooded Strand
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Celestial Purge
3 Crumble to Dust
1 Dispel
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Negate
2 Stony Silence
1 Timely Reinforcements
2 Wear // Tear
1 Wrath of God
Would this be good enough against a meta of tron, jund, affinity, infect, bogles, merfolk and token+polymorph?
There's something I don't get it, what are those spreading seas in the side for? What matchup are they for?
I'm thinking of dropping the 2 Geist and 3 Crumble to try out 2 Goblin Dark Dwellers and 3 Boom // Bust, what do you guys think?
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
Boom could be good. Dark Dwellers is bad in my opinion.
What I'm saying is that I have tested the souls version (I played crackling doom and slaughter games in the side) and while the black definitely has some upside against ad nauseam, scapeshift, jund and bogles, you make the deck less consistent and inflict more pain from your manabase. The loss of consistency hurts every matchup, and is especially prevalent in the aggro matchups(most of the format).
So if your meta consists of mostly the decks listed, then go for the splash, just keep in mind that it isn't all upside.
I haven't really tried it out myself yet, I do feel that the meta is slowing down a bit and the black splash could have potential
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
I still don't really get it, perhaps you could tell me what are the changes I should make?
Actually, would it be better to go for a more "protect the queen" approach or the plan a plan b approach?
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
Even with the latter, your opponent still has to respect Nahiri, because if they can't answer her at the right time, she will win you the game.
Take out the cards that are bad, side in the cards that are good.
Really, all sideboard guides do is restrict your ability to sideboard well. Learn which cards are bad in certain matchups by testing. Learn what sideboard cards do the most damage.
For example, you might want to cut down your Nahiris against Jund and put in things like Elspeth. Against fast aggro decks, you can cut slow and expensive cards and side in Timely.
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
Perhaps they expected more Burn/Aggro. If that's the case, I could easily see cutting some counters in exchange for Helix. Helix is so good against the faster decks, that I have a difficult time justifying playing less than at least 2.
But yeah, it's great, right? Nahiri is just so good. I initially disliked AV myself, but I've pretty much come around to it.
Is regeneration relevant enough to play Wrath of God instead of more Verdict?
In a meta heavy on Path to Exile, shouldn't we run more than four basics? Between path and GQ, especially versus Snapcasters, eventually those cards become Dispatch and Strip Mine. Against PTE decks, do you deliberately not fetch basics to avoid losing the ramp from Path? The above lists run 9 fetches and 8 or 9 fetchables. Assuming you draw some fetchable lands, and possibly get basics from Paths and GQs, doesn't this just set up completely dead draws for longer games? If you don't have a Nahiri or lighthouse, isn't it just as bad as the Emrakul draw?
If you end up having to discard Emrakul, you then shuffle in all these dead draws (fetches, AVs, leaks). Wouldn't the deck benefit from more graveyard-eaters like Grim Lavamancer, Logic Knot, etc?
How often do we really have to worry about our wraths getting countered? Our wraths are for creature heavy decks, which rarely run counters. Any deck running Collected Company probably has 27 or more creatures, leaving extremely little room for counters. *** also just randomly hoses decks trying to win off of a Thrun, etc.
Also, we run like 5 creatures max (not counting Emma, but it's not like Path can stop her anyways). How does Path to Exile really hurt us?
Not so much regeneration as regeneration combined with hexproof. Thrun, the Last Troll sucks or is amazing. It's all a matter of perspective.
Tron, Ad Nauseam and other combo decks I imagine are matchups where Geist enters the main deck. I would argue that the Nahiri-Emrakul combo is a little slow for these matchups. I wouldn't board them out (in part or entirely), but I wouldn't want them as my plan A in those matchups either.
What are they going to hit with Path? Snapcaster Mage? At that point, Tiago has done his job and getting a land for him on the way out is a win. Also, the deck tends to make it difficult to keep a lot of hard removal in the main deck against it.
Not to mention, in a three color deck with the deck's mana requirements, I'd love to see how you make that work. There are only so many basics you can run that will allow the deck to consistently start on 2 or 3 lands. If you can figure out that puzzle, I would be impressed. It would be pretty awesome for several different matchups I have in mind. Zoo, in particular.
You can also get some overtime out of Snapcaster Mage and anything else that you didn't exile or get exiled. It's not the worst thing in the world.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Remand is here to buy time, not to be a hard counter.
Nahiri is essentially a time bomb here, give her a couple of turns and she can't not win the game.
Being able to "counter" any spell and draw a card off of it for 2 mana is important, especially since at worst, we can discard dead draws to nahiri, so keeping the number of cards in your hand high (and thus keeping your options varied) is very important.
Of course, the card gets better when you play against flashback, or against other counterspells.
Being able to remand something, then snatch it with clique, or if you splash black, take it with thoughtseize/kommand/esper charm is also not a terrible play.
Not good enough at 4 mana. The few cases where it shines don't make this better than Cryptic. I don't think we run this anywhere in the 75.