I think the cost of having all 3 colors present mainboard is a little overblown. Yes we take more damage on average but there are limited circumstances where that is necessary. Furthermore, about the most extra damage we can expect to take is 2 more per game than traditional build. Consistency might be affected if we bring in checks or fastlands to reduce our damage, but it is just as viable to adjust the manabase to mainboard green by merely adding 1 more Stomping Ground.
Even so there are two main scenarios that we will run into with a 3 color mainboard build. Extra damage and color screw. However the additional situations introduced by three colors are fairly limited, coming down to a couple very specific scenarios (other situations like 0-1 land hands, or multiple basics is a problem regardless of your splash setup.
Additional damage:
Scenario 1:
(All conditions must be met)
We have both splashes in our starting hand.
We start with only 2 lands.
We do not draw a 3rd land by turn 2.
Color screw:
Scenario 2:
(All conditions must be met)
We have both splashes in our starting hand.
We start with only 2 lands, one of which is a Basic.
We do not draw a 3rd land by turn 3.
I could work out the math on it, but simple goldfishing tends to show that these issues do not come up all that often. There are plenty of situations where any of the following will be true and allows us to make our land drops and fetches in such a way which mitigates the damage without necessarily slowing us down. For example.
Scenarios 3-5
(Any condition may be me to qualify)
We have several 2 drops and cannot spend 1 of our mana on turn 3 or 5.
Or
We have only 1 splash in the starter so there is little rush to fetch the third color before turn 4.
Or
We draw more than 3 lands by turn 3 allowing us to postpone casting the second splash cards.
Furthermore, how we manage our mana and the extra damage from shocklands is highly dependant on the matchup. Not all or even a majority of the matchups will be effected by an extra 2 damage per game from our manabase. In these matchups, slowing down slightly to fetch for tapped lands is likely the preferred strategy regardless of build.
TL;DR A 3 color build at most is taking an extra 2 damage a game. The actual additional damage per game is less than that because the scenarios requiring multiple fetch+shock are limited and there are a number of other possible scenarios which allows for sequencing that deals no additional damage. Sequencing is also matchup specific, and many matchups the extra 2 damage is inconsequential.
I want to add. Skullcrack is a card that is often the worst card in our deck. It is not very efficient at 1.5 damage per mana spent. Compared to Lightning Bolt, Lava Spike, Rift Bolt at 3:1 and Boros charm at 4:2. Searing Blaze is 6:2 depending on how you are looking at it, and while Helix isn't more efficient, it has a relevant add-on that is useful in more matchups. The reason why Skullcrack is used in Modern burn is because it's our best tool against lifegain and in the matchups we want it, it goes from being our worst card to our best card, because each point of lifegain we deny is a bit like "extra" damage. In other words, when we Skullcrack a Siege Rhino, we are in some ways dealing 6 damage with the Skullcrack rather than 3.
Atarka's Command on the other hand is always a good card. It is generally going to be just as efficient as Boros Charm (sometimes better) in the matchups we do not need Skullcrack. Yet, it still fills the role of Antilifegain in the matchups we do want that effect. The cost is a slightly more damaging manabase. In the aggro matchups where that extra damage becomes relevant, games hinge on racing and sideboard hosers. Regarding racing, we generally do not care about the antilifegain portion of command. Instead the pump+spike mode is better, and it allows us to race faster. I think faster even in the mirror against a traditional RWg once we take into consideration land sequencing.
I want to add. Skullcrack is a card that is often the worst card in our deck. It is not very efficient at 1.5 damage per mana spent. Compared to Lightning Bolt, Lava Spike, Rift Bolt at 3:1 and Boros charm at 4:2. Searing Blaze is 6:2 depending on how you are looking at it, and while Helix isn't more efficient, it has a relevant add-on that is useful in more matchups. The reason why Skullcrack is used in Modern burn is because it's our best tool against lifegain and in the matchups we want it, it goes from being our worst card to our best card, because each point of lifegain we deny is a bit like "extra" damage. In other words, when we Skullcrack a Siege Rhino, we are in some ways dealing 6 damage with the Skullcrack rather than 3.
Atarka's Command on the other hand is always a good card. It is generally going to be just as efficient as Boros Charm (sometimes better) in the matchups we do not need Skullcrack. Yet, it still fills the role of Antilifegain in the matchups we do want that effect. The cost is a slightly more damaging manabase. In the aggro matchups where that extra damage becomes relevant, games hinge on racing and sideboard hosers. Regarding racing, we generally do not care about the antilifegain portion of command. Instead the pump+spike mode is better, and it allows us to race faster. I think faster even in the mirror against a traditional RWg once we take into consideration land sequencing.
agree with nevel about the command and skullcrack posts. while it does make mana tighter it also is super good.
-MH
Is there any consensus on a budget burn deck that anyone can forward me too? I've spent a fair bit of time reading around and haven't found anything recent or convincing.
So all in all, you guys don't find Commands to be that much of a mainboard material at the end of the day? Would the deck just be better running Skullcracks mainboard, keep the Commands maybe on the side, and go with Shard volleys and/or 2 Lavamancers MB?
yes, to me command is a natural replacement of the molten rain in the SB, you dont want to NEED 3 colors in the first game! how many games do you won with few lands? a lot in burn!, so why add colorscrew to manascrew if you can avoid it? that exactly why most competitive list dont use bump in the night, why add another color to the main for such a marginal effect?
On the SB they are great (or in main, as 5/6 copy of skullcrack), because they provide more anti life gain effect (so take that rhinos, timely reinforcement, etc etc).
In my opinion too, Atarka's Command is slightly better than Skullcrack, but that is way too marginal to mess up the manabase. 4 Skullcrack in the MB is fine. I can live with 2 Atarka's Command in the SB in place of Molten Rain, although I'm still running them at the moment for the Tron decks I'm facing.
I have played a lot of budget burn so I know this isn't the budget thread but thought it would be okay to toss out a list for the previous poster! It probably just depends on your budget and what you're starting with. Have enough of a land base to play a splash color without picking up too many more lands? Have any Goblin Guides? Have Vexing Devils? Assuming the answer is no to these questions, and you're going for a mono red budget build, you could start with something like:
The Zurgos were just an idea to get more 1-drops, personally I would play Vexing Devil over that and Shard Volley but they're expensive for some reason. You could try Figure of Destiny as another cheap 1-drop option. Other than that the only thing people would likely point out is Keldon Marauders, but they do a fine job in my experience and I have won 1st at a small local event playing them while I was still trading for the lands I needed for splash colors. Searing Blood is usually played when you don't have fetches but you could play Blaze if you want.
Public Mod Note
(ktkenshinx):
Warning for budget discussion outside of budget subform -ktkenshinx-
vexing devil is bad in burn and so is Zurgo. Zurgo is meh in zoo but not even close to decent in burn. also 3 grim lavamncer with 0 fetches is to much I would cut down to 2
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To see the world in a grain of sand, and to see heaven in a wild flower, hold infinity in the palm of your hands, and eternity in an hour. - William Blake
It was not delight, not wonder that arose among us, it was the peace of heaven. He who has thought most deeply loves what is most alive. - Friedrich Holderlin
@Nevel0: I like your analysis of Atarka's command but I think you oversimplified it. It's not just about taking an extra 2 damage, it's about adding color screw to a deck that can already get mana screwed.
Keeping a 1 land hand is feasible in RWg but RWG with Atarka's main is just asking to be color screwed in 2/10 games at the least. Doesn't seem like a high percentage but it is. Atarka's usually gets an extra 1-2 damage over skullcrack which I would argue isn't enough to warrant the risk of being color screwed. Burn runs 19-20 lands so winning on ~2 lands is pretty common. This can't really be done effectively with green in the main. I feel like the traditional RWg builds with Atarka's in the side for added lifegain hate is perfectly fine.
I couldn't help but notice not a single list that has made Top 8 recently had Atarka's Command in it. I honestly feel like this card is overrated and shouldn't be played. Let me explain why:
1. It forces you to actually play 3-colored, unlike the light green splash for Revelry. This means the deck will lose some consistency and often deal more damage to itself than a Boros deck with a light green splash.
2. It looks like it's superior to Skullcrack, but it's not. Skullcrack's ability to (help) kill Kor Firewalkers is extremely relevant and one of the main reasons it is played. Buffing creatures with Command is admittedly sweet, but I think decks like Zoo could make more use of it.
3. There is simply no room for Command in the current Boros build. What are you going to cut? Skullcrack? Have fun with the Firewalkers. Lightning Helix? This will make the mirror significantly harder for you. Searing Blaze? This will make Affinity happy. Grim Lavamancer? I fail to see why people cut this card. Lavaman's raw power is unmatched by any other card in the Burn deck.
So long story short: Don't play Atarka's Command. Not only does it make your manabase more problematic, but it also doesn't live up to the expectations of being a better Skullcrack. Even the few times where it allows you to sneak in an extra 2 damage are probably not worth it.
They did. They analyzed and offered a rebuttal. I think the rebuttal has been shown to be correct: since then burn lists placing have featured Atarka's Command.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Agreed, Leviatan. I've noticed a trend, especially here on Salvation, where most people come back after a handful of kitchen table top games, FNMS, or "hours of goldfishing" and call it day. "[CARD] was bonkers in testing!" or "I loved [CARD] over [CARD]" are usually the two lines I hear the most often, yet nobody ever offers to explain why a certain card overperformed, what matchups were played, accounts of variance, or if the games went into sideboarded matches or not. Where is that actual data?
I want to be convinced. And I've yet to be convinced that Atarka's Command is better than Skullcrack (hint: it's not) or why it should even be ran in the main. Can it be supplemental Skullcracks? Sure.
Command is a pretty high variance card for Burn, as Burn only ever has a handful of creatures out at a time. Want to reliably hit for a bunch of extra damage with your creatures? Add more creatures. And then ask yourself why you are not playing Zoo, Goblins, or any deck that wants to spread wide.
People seem to forget that Burn's strengths are in its consistency. Skullcrack always does what it's supposed to do - it deals 3 damage and turns off protection, which is incredibly valuable when your dudes are getting blocked by Etched Champions, Master of Waves, Auriok Champions, and Kor Firewalkers. You also don't have to jump through hoops to fix your mana to play Skullcrack when you're on the backfoot against the Burn mirror (yeah, people also tend to forget that Burn makes up a nice chunk of the metagame).
Nice sarcasm, buddy. A gloried Zoo deck and some Burn decks that have used Commands to have SUPPLEMENTAL Skullcracks. Only one deck played the full four commands to actually replace Skullcrack. One deck. It's not enough to convince me.
The ole "there were some Top 8 at States" argument.
Some decks still do okay despite having weaker cards. The field may have been soft. The pilot may have dodged the right matchups.
Can anyone actually tell me WHY Command is better than Skullcrack? Can anyone tell me why I should be playing it over Skullcrack in the main? Do I really need more than 4 'crack effects?
And can anybody do that without pointing to the 3 or four decks that didn't win any States tournaments?
Also, hours of goldfishing and playing on something as loose as cockatrice does not make for solid testing.
I an not telling that i made long complex testing, just talking my thoughts for now. For real conclusions about AC we need few weeks, bigger tournaments and more data.
@Khaospawn
you are talking about providing data, but you didnt provide it too, and like me talking about that card. You can write why you hate it, i can write why i love it, i am not forcing anyone to play it, magic is fun not netdecking, play what you love, but we can discuss anyway.
I also want to be convinced why is this card worse than skullcrack, and "Skullcrack always does what it's supposed to do - it deals 3 damage and turns off protection" not convince me. Command also deals always 3 damage and do other things. No one want to play Command in Skullcrack place, but with it.
Which cards i want to swap for commands? i moved 2 skullcracks to sideboard and removed Shard Volleys. Yes deck is little slower, but i honestly hate shard volley. Skullcracks can be brought back in 2 or 3 game.
Only real problem i see is mirror match where RWg has advantage with their manabase and only 2 colours.
And i want to repeat, i am not forcing anyone to play it, not hating ang arguing with anyone, just trying to discuss, maybe after few real tournaments i will drop AC, who knows. But i want to try it.
Wait, so I can't ask for data without providing some first? What kind of gorilla logic is that?
For the record, I thought that Anthreion brought up the best points and nobody else has been successfully been able to argue against them in the last page or two. The guantlet testing I have done in paper for the last 2 weeks and the 15-20 matches I've played on MTGO with Command support his points.
Some decks still do okay despite having weaker cards. The field may have been soft. The pilot may have dodged the right matchups.
Can anyone actually tell me WHY Command is better than Skullcrack? Can anyone tell me why I should be playing it over Skullcrack in the main? Do I really need more than 4 'crack effects?
And can anybody do that without pointing to the 3 or four decks that didn't win any States tournaments?
Last time I checked no one had a gun to your head and a playset of Atarka's Command in the other hand forcing you to play them.
If you don't like it, don't play it. It's worked well for me so far.
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“Modern has provided us a non-rotating format that is far more accessible than Legacy or Vintage, but still retains many of the qualities that people enjoy in those formats—such as a more stable metagame, the ability to play and tweak the same deck week after week, and simply a much more powerful card pool than Standard.”
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
Even so there are two main scenarios that we will run into with a 3 color mainboard build. Extra damage and color screw. However the additional situations introduced by three colors are fairly limited, coming down to a couple very specific scenarios (other situations like 0-1 land hands, or multiple basics is a problem regardless of your splash setup.
Additional damage:
Scenario 1:
(All conditions must be met)
Color screw:
Scenario 2:
(All conditions must be met)
I could work out the math on it, but simple goldfishing tends to show that these issues do not come up all that often. There are plenty of situations where any of the following will be true and allows us to make our land drops and fetches in such a way which mitigates the damage without necessarily slowing us down. For example.
Scenarios 3-5
(Any condition may be me to qualify)
Furthermore, how we manage our mana and the extra damage from shocklands is highly dependant on the matchup. Not all or even a majority of the matchups will be effected by an extra 2 damage per game from our manabase. In these matchups, slowing down slightly to fetch for tapped lands is likely the preferred strategy regardless of build.
TL;DR A 3 color build at most is taking an extra 2 damage a game. The actual additional damage per game is less than that because the scenarios requiring multiple fetch+shock are limited and there are a number of other possible scenarios which allows for sequencing that deals no additional damage. Sequencing is also matchup specific, and many matchups the extra 2 damage is inconsequential.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Atarka's Command on the other hand is always a good card. It is generally going to be just as efficient as Boros Charm (sometimes better) in the matchups we do not need Skullcrack. Yet, it still fills the role of Antilifegain in the matchups we do want that effect. The cost is a slightly more damaging manabase. In the aggro matchups where that extra damage becomes relevant, games hinge on racing and sideboard hosers. Regarding racing, we generally do not care about the antilifegain portion of command. Instead the pump+spike mode is better, and it allows us to race faster. I think faster even in the mirror against a traditional RWg once we take into consideration land sequencing.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
agree with nevel about the command and skullcrack posts. while it does make mana tighter it also is super good.
-MH
Modern
BUGLantern ControlBUG
In my opinion too, Atarka's Command is slightly better than Skullcrack, but that is way too marginal to mess up the manabase. 4 Skullcrack in the MB is fine. I can live with 2 Atarka's Command in the SB in place of Molten Rain, although I'm still running them at the moment for the Tron decks I'm facing.
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
2 Zurgo Bellstriker
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Searing Blood
4 Skullcrack
2 Shard Volley
1 Flames of the Blood Hand
20 Mountain
The Zurgos were just an idea to get more 1-drops, personally I would play Vexing Devil over that and Shard Volley but they're expensive for some reason. You could try Figure of Destiny as another cheap 1-drop option. Other than that the only thing people would likely point out is Keldon Marauders, but they do a fine job in my experience and I have won 1st at a small local event playing them while I was still trading for the lands I needed for splash colors. Searing Blood is usually played when you don't have fetches but you could play Blaze if you want.
It was not delight, not wonder that arose among us, it was the peace of heaven. He who has thought most deeply loves what is most alive. - Friedrich Holderlin
1907 Constructed Rating on Magic Online.
Keeping a 1 land hand is feasible in RWg but RWG with Atarka's main is just asking to be color screwed in 2/10 games at the least. Doesn't seem like a high percentage but it is. Atarka's usually gets an extra 1-2 damage over skullcrack which I would argue isn't enough to warrant the risk of being color screwed. Burn runs 19-20 lands so winning on ~2 lands is pretty common. This can't really be done effectively with green in the main. I feel like the traditional RWg builds with Atarka's in the side for added lifegain hate is perfectly fine.
RWG Burn
GW Abzan Company
I wish more people would listen to this.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Also, hours of goldfishing and playing on something as loose as cockatrice does not make for solid testing.
+1 to this.
people here confuse outliers with facts too often.
From States:
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1235061
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1234542
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1235052
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1235017
need more?
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck_search_result.asp?Format=Modern
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I want to be convinced. And I've yet to be convinced that Atarka's Command is better than Skullcrack (hint: it's not) or why it should even be ran in the main. Can it be supplemental Skullcracks? Sure.
Command is a pretty high variance card for Burn, as Burn only ever has a handful of creatures out at a time. Want to reliably hit for a bunch of extra damage with your creatures? Add more creatures. And then ask yourself why you are not playing Zoo, Goblins, or any deck that wants to spread wide.
People seem to forget that Burn's strengths are in its consistency. Skullcrack always does what it's supposed to do - it deals 3 damage and turns off protection, which is incredibly valuable when your dudes are getting blocked by Etched Champions, Master of Waves, Auriok Champions, and Kor Firewalkers. You also don't have to jump through hoops to fix your mana to play Skullcrack when you're on the backfoot against the Burn mirror (yeah, people also tend to forget that Burn makes up a nice chunk of the metagame).
Nice sarcasm, buddy. A gloried Zoo deck and some Burn decks that have used Commands to have SUPPLEMENTAL Skullcracks. Only one deck played the full four commands to actually replace Skullcrack. One deck. It's not enough to convince me.
The ole "there were some Top 8 at States" argument.
Can anyone actually tell me WHY Command is better than Skullcrack? Can anyone tell me why I should be playing it over Skullcrack in the main? Do I really need more than 4 'crack effects?
And can anybody do that without pointing to the 3 or four decks that didn't win any States tournaments?
Wait, so I can't ask for data without providing some first? What kind of gorilla logic is that?
If you don't like it, don't play it. It's worked well for me so far.
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
How to Use Spoiler Tags
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3 Caves of Koilos
3 Eldrazi Temple
2 Fetid Heath
3 Godless Shrine
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Plains
3 Shambling Vent
2 Tectonic Edge
Artifacts (4):
4 Æther Vial
4 Path to Exile
Creatures (29):
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thought-Knot Seer
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2 Dismember
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6 Island
3 Polluted Delta
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4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stormchaser Mage
2 Gut Shot
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3 Mutagenic Growth
3 Spell Pierce
3 Twisted Image
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Sorceries (8):
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Blood Moon
2 Dispel
1 Forked Bolt
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Repeal
2 Roast
1 Spell Snare
2 Spellskite
1 Vapor Snag
4 Bloodstained Mire
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5 Mountain
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Creatures (14):
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
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4 Atarka's Command
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Searing Blaze
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2 Rending Volley
3 Skullcrack
19 Forest
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4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Dryad Militant
2 Dungrove Elder
4 Experiment One
4 Leatherback Baloth
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Rancor
Instants (10):
3 Aspect of Hydra
4 Vines of Vastwood
3 Dismember
2 Choke
2 Gut Shot
2 Deglamer
2 Feed the Clan
2 Oxidize
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Skylasher
1 Unravel the Æther