I actually did not pull a cryptic in the few matches i logged. Thinking back though I can not think of a situation last night where I would have used them. I thinking of replacing those with Spell Pierce.
I actually did not pull a cryptic in the few matches i logged. Thinking back though I can not think of a situation last night where I would have used them. I thinking of replacing those with Spell Pierce.
Replacing it with something you have a chance of casting seems correct.
I'm fairly new to this archetype, and I wasn't playing magic at all when standard delver was a thing, but I've had a lot of success in the past with tempo/disruption decks that get there with smaller dudes (mainly UG Madness) So I'm still learning what it takes to be able to pilot a deck like this in the modern format, as even though it's tempo, protecting your creatures early isn't as simple as just having a daze or circular logic with a discard outlet on the table.
This is the list I'm currently running, but I'm still in the early phases of testing.
It kind of feels like the deck needs more tempo plays, like bounce spells (vapor snag, into the roil, echoing truth etc) but I think at the same time that would favor a build with goblin guide in it - since then you'd be able to bounce EoT then swing back. Pyromancer seems really good just because he can help stall the ground game in a similar way to how lingering souls stalls games for control decks, buying you time so you can get cards and stick a threat that can take over the game - and pyromancer can do that himself sometimes. I want to try electrolyze out soon, but I think 3 of is a little sketchy as it's a lot harder to cast than magma jet. Love that it can hit two targets and replace itself though.
Overall I like how it plays, and will probably be sticking with this for a while since I'm a little bored with mono U tron in my metagame.
Try the Guides before you knock them. They're insane.
I almost always hit 4 lands for Cryptic, and the games I don't it's not even relevant (I don't draw it/Burst Lightning wins me the game). All the cantrips definitely help. The Probes were very underwhelming so I made the following adjustments:
The weakest matchups, predictably, are ones in which you're staring down 4/4 Elephants. Everything else is pretty manageable. Thinking about a Skite or two in the board for Twin and Bogle, but those matchups haven't proven particularly troublesome so far.
And before anyone mentions Steam Augury, it costs too much. Not a bad card, but it just doesn't do what we need it to. Seems better suited for control than for tempo, where we want our curve low; I can't think of an instance where Cryptic Command wouldn't just be better to have.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I am somewhat new to modern, so please excuse me if this has been discussed. But has anyone tried out Guttersnipe? Or is this just a bad Young Pyromancer?
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Try the Guides before you knock them. They're insane.
absolutely, I've played mono red in legacy for long enough to know how good the little guide can be!
I kind of like what telling time can do for the deck. I don't know if I like cryptic command's 4cc, and with a triple blue requirement, with 18 lands I don't think you can get to 4 quick enough for it to matter that much. The option to draw a card and counter a spell is obviously awesome, like remand.
I still have a lot of testing to do, but will take your suggestions into consideration for sure.
I haven't been following the archetype to be honest, but it's pretty different from the last lists posted here, and I have to admit I'm a little in love with it. Spellstutter works really well in this deck with mutavaults and Cliques. The swords look a little odd to me though.
Spellstutter and Vendilion Clique. Spellstutter is the nuts in Modern, where the key cards are mostly 1 mana (Lightning Bolt, Deathrite Shaman, Path to Exile, and Thoughtseize). You effectively 2 for 1 every time you play it. Occasionally, you also get to count the 2 mana drops with a Mutavault with play, which is ridiculously because you also get a 1/1 flying body, which is awesome because of the evasion.
Grim Lavamancer is great! But not as good at dealing with early mana dorks. I just don't see the power of Young Pyromancer yet and don't think this is the right shell to play him.
Spellstutter and Vendilion Clique. Spellstutter is the nuts in Modern, where the key cards are mostly 1 mana (Lightning Bolt, Deathrite Shaman, Path to Exile, and Thoughtseize). You effectively 2 for 1 every time you play it. Occasionally, you also get to count the 2 mana drops with a Mutavault with play, which is ridiculously because you also get a 1/1 flying body, which is awesome because of the evasion.
Grim Lavamancer is great! But not as good at dealing with early mana dorks. I just don't see the power of Young Pyromancer yet and don't think this is the right shell to play him.
You're in Christmas land scenario where your opponent for whatever reason declares no blocks before removal? That seems like a weird line of play.
I know Jeff tested out Ninja once and it seems more cute than good. If you want recurring Snapcaster or other triggers, Sword of Light and Shadow is a card and it helps against one of our worst match ups, Junk with Loxodon Smiter and Lingering Souls.
The Sideboard is already quite jammed packed so I really can't see Annul making it into the 75.
Jeff seems convinced that Scion of Oona is better then Delver of Secrets past the 2nd turn, but the cc value for Scion of Oona seem to hefty to me. (its much easier to cast Delver and leave mana open to protect him then it is for Scion)
What are your thoughts on this guys? what about the Magma Jet vs Telling Time issue as well, I'm leaning more towards Telling Time since I like drawing cards but in a meta where you can see heaps of Pod decks I can understand why people are taking Magma Jet .
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I think having access to something like shattering blow for wurmcoils and stuff is better than annul, since some of those decks will be trying to recur it somehow. Combust I think is better against splinter twin, as once the player knows what you're up to, they won't be going for the combo until they can win the counter war.
Magma jet is just really good. Two damage to the dome or using it as removal and digging for what you need next can't be underestimated. So far in my testing it's never been a bad card to have.
Spirit jund and junk seem like bad matchups, but what do people think about dismember and electrickery in the board to help deal with these decks?
I think having access to something like shattering blow for wurmcoils and stuff is better than annul, since some of those decks will be trying to recur it somehow. Combust I think is better against splinter twin, as once the player knows what you're up to, they won't be going for the combo until they can win the counter war.
Magma jet is just really good. Two damage to the dome or using it as removal and digging for what you need next can't be underestimated. So far in my testing it's never been a bad card to have.
Spirit jund and junk seem like bad matchups, but what do people think about dismember and electrickery in the board to help deal with these decks?
Shattering Blow is too narrow and we already aptly deal with Affinity by having so many main deck burns plus sideboard Magma Spray. Wurmcoil Engine is one card, and we can still win after it resolves by blocking and burning our own guys to finish the race. Jeff's advocated adding Stone Rain and Spreading Seas on the sideboard to REALLY mess up Tron, as well as affect other decks with manlands like Jund, UWR, and I think this is a better way of dealing with multiple match ups that aren't great.
If you really want, you can add some Turn // Burn on the sideboard to 1 for 1 Wurmcoil Engine along with other harder to kill creatures.
we're certainly not going to be winning any races by blocking wurmcoils. we're not going to win races against batterskulls either. I'd at least rather consider the option of exiling a wurmcoil than worrying if someone is going to recur it with academy ruins or something silly like that.
I do think turn//burn is a good card for this deck, but in some instances it may be better to exile an artifact, which shattering blow at least gives the option to do.
we're certainly not going to be winning any races by blocking wurmcoils. we're not going to win races against batterskulls either. I'd at least rather consider the option of exiling a wurmcoil than worrying if someone is going to recur it with academy ruins or something silly like that.
I do think turn//burn is a good card for this deck, but in some instances it may be better to exile an artifact, which shattering blow at least gives the option to do.
you haven't watched Jeff's streams. I've seen him race Wurmcoil Engines effectively multiple times by throwing his Snapcasters under the bus and burning it before combat damage. it's basically a really expensive Fog, but still one card.
you don't want to bring in sideboard cards that only hit 3-4 cards in an opponent's deck unless you absolutely lose when that card resolves. that's just not the case with Wurmcoil, which you can race. of course, it's a totally different story if two of them resolves, that's probably game then. with Spreading Seas and Stone Rains, it's pretty hard to resolve a an early Tron, and even then you have counter magic backup the likes of Remand and Mana Leak on the draw.
Could someone give me the most recently updated shell for a delver deck?
I've been wanting to make one but am missing alot of the money cards like Mutavault, Vendillion, and fetchs. I have delvers, a spellshutter, some of the good burn, 2 farie conclaves, a set of snaps, and some other junk, I just don't know if it's worth trying to build and work on yet or if I still need more for it to even work.
Could someone give me the most recently updated shell for a delver deck?
I've been wanting to make one but am missing alot of the money cards like Mutavault, Vendillion, and fetchs. I have delvers, a spellshutter, some of the good burn, 2 farie conclaves, a set of snaps, and some other junk, I just don't know if it's worth trying to build and work on yet or if I still need more for it to even work.
Just saw on the Theros Spoiler that Annul is getting reprinted. Then I checked and saw that it was Modern-legal before anyway. Could it be worth playing this? Seems all right against Wurmcoil/Splinter Twin/Affinitiy...Or is it just too narrow?
Annul was played in sideboards back when UW was a deck. I think it was mostly for ascension, splinter twin, and cranial plating back then.
I think with the red cards you don't need annul anymore.
What are your thoughts on this guys? what about the Magma Jet vs Telling Time issue as well, I'm leaning more towards Telling Time since I like drawing cards but in a meta where you can see heaps of Pod decks I can understand why people are taking Magma Jet .
Since you have 4 snapcasters I wouldn't fault you for playing a split of magma jet and telling time.
Telling time is a really bad magic card though, so I would not play more than 2.
we're certainly not going to be winning any races by blocking wurmcoils. we're not going to win races against batterskulls either. I'd at least rather consider the option of exiling a wurmcoil than worrying if someone is going to recur it with academy ruins or something silly like that.
You can win against big lifelinking creatures, though it's pretty rare, you need exceptional draws.
Does anyone have any experience with RUG Delver in Modern? I. e., a deck along the lines of Hoogland's, but with Tarmogoyfs instead of Spellstutter Sprites?
Though this makes the mana more difficult, it seems like it could be a strong addition. Goyf is both a good threat and a creature which can, incidentally, battle one of this deck's most problematic cards - other Tarmogoyfs.
Moreover, it is also a good threat if games go longer. Of course, this would probably entail removing the Mutavaults.
Any opinions?
3 colors means no manlands and no blood moons. I don't have any experience with RUG delver in modern, but I do know that.
We don't know. We just know that the last time he updated his TappedOut on I believe Thursday, he had a URx variant without a black splash by siding in Turn // Burn and Sword of Light and Shadow.
Hoogland said on twitter Sword of Light and Shadow won him a game. SoLaS is bad with scion. That means he's on delver. And I would guess he's playing the black splash as that was his most recent list 2 days ago.
Replacing it with something you have a chance of casting seems correct.
Legacy: UBRG Czech Pile, WWW Death & Taxes, many other things
Modern: UBR Grixis, RWG Burn, UR UR Storm, BBB 8 Rack, whatever other control deck I can force
Multiplayer EDH: RR Norin the Wary, UU Barrin, Master Wizard, UB Wrexial, the Risen Deep, GR Borborygmos, Enraged
This is the list I'm currently running, but I'm still in the early phases of testing.
4 snapcaster mage
3 grim lavamancer
4 young pyromancer
4 gitaxian probe
4 serum visions
4 lightning bolt
2 burst lightning
2 spell pierce
4 remand
4 mana leak
3 magma jet
4 scalding tarn
3 arid mesa
3 island
2 mountain
4 steam vents
2 blood moon
2 pyroclasm
1 spell snare
2 dismember
1 relic of progenitus
1 grafdigger's cage
2 shattering spree
2 vendilion clique
2 surgical extraction
It kind of feels like the deck needs more tempo plays, like bounce spells (vapor snag, into the roil, echoing truth etc) but I think at the same time that would favor a build with goblin guide in it - since then you'd be able to bounce EoT then swing back. Pyromancer seems really good just because he can help stall the ground game in a similar way to how lingering souls stalls games for control decks, buying you time so you can get cards and stick a threat that can take over the game - and pyromancer can do that himself sometimes. I want to try electrolyze out soon, but I think 3 of is a little sketchy as it's a lot harder to cast than magma jet. Love that it can hit two targets and replace itself though.
Overall I like how it plays, and will probably be sticking with this for a while since I'm a little bored with mono U tron in my metagame.
I almost always hit 4 lands for Cryptic, and the games I don't it's not even relevant (I don't draw it/Burst Lightning wins me the game). All the cantrips definitely help. The Probes were very underwhelming so I made the following adjustments:
-2 Gitaxian Probe
-1 Mana Leak
+1 Spell Snare
+1 Vendilion Clique
+1 Telling Time
Telling Time is stellar too, I always want it.
The weakest matchups, predictably, are ones in which you're staring down 4/4 Elephants. Everything else is pretty manageable. Thinking about a Skite or two in the board for Twin and Bogle, but those matchups haven't proven particularly troublesome so far.
And before anyone mentions Steam Augury, it costs too much. Not a bad card, but it just doesn't do what we need it to. Seems better suited for control than for tempo, where we want our curve low; I can't think of an instance where Cryptic Command wouldn't just be better to have.
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RGOmnath, Locus of ManaRG
URThe Locust godUR
Modern
UWMiraclesUW
Legacy
BGIce Station Zebra (Living Fins)BG
UBRGrixis ControlUBR
RGLandsRG
absolutely, I've played mono red in legacy for long enough to know how good the little guide can be!
I kind of like what telling time can do for the deck. I don't know if I like cryptic command's 4cc, and with a triple blue requirement, with 18 lands I don't think you can get to 4 quick enough for it to matter that much. The option to draw a card and counter a spell is obviously awesome, like remand.
I still have a lot of testing to do, but will take your suggestions into consideration for sure.
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Magma Jet
4x Mana Leak
4x Remand
3x Spell Pierce
2x Spell Snare
Creature (14)
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Spellstutter Sprite
2x Vendilion Clique
5x Island
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Mountain
4x Mutavault
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Steam Vents
1x Sulfur Falls
Sorcery (2)
2x Pillar of Flame
3x Magma Spray
2x Blood Moon
1x Negate
2x Spellskite
3x Stone Rain
2x Sword of Light and Shadow
2x Turn / Burn
I haven't been following the archetype to be honest, but it's pretty different from the last lists posted here, and I have to admit I'm a little in love with it. Spellstutter works really well in this deck with mutavaults and Cliques. The swords look a little odd to me though.
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Spellstutter and Vendilion Clique. Spellstutter is the nuts in Modern, where the key cards are mostly 1 mana (Lightning Bolt, Deathrite Shaman, Path to Exile, and Thoughtseize). You effectively 2 for 1 every time you play it. Occasionally, you also get to count the 2 mana drops with a Mutavault with play, which is ridiculously because you also get a 1/1 flying body, which is awesome because of the evasion.
Grim Lavamancer is great! But not as good at dealing with early mana dorks. I just don't see the power of Young Pyromancer yet and don't think this is the right shell to play him.
See Jeff's Primer here: http://brainstormbrewery.com/jeff-hoogland-delvers-scions-and-lightning-bolts-oh-my/
After reading the primer, what are your thoughts on replacing Delver of Secrets for Ninja Of The Deep Hours?
He can save your cards from removal during the attack phase, help you draw cards and re-trigger Snapcaster Mage, Spellstutter Sprite + Vendilion Clique.
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You're in Christmas land scenario where your opponent for whatever reason declares no blocks before removal? That seems like a weird line of play.
I know Jeff tested out Ninja once and it seems more cute than good. If you want recurring Snapcaster or other triggers, Sword of Light and Shadow is a card and it helps against one of our worst match ups, Junk with Loxodon Smiter and Lingering Souls.
Jeff seems convinced that Scion of Oona is better then Delver of Secrets past the 2nd turn, but the cc value for Scion of Oona seem to hefty to me. (its much easier to cast Delver and leave mana open to protect him then it is for Scion)
What are your thoughts on this guys? what about the Magma Jet vs Telling Time issue as well, I'm leaning more towards Telling Time since I like drawing cards but in a meta where you can see heaps of Pod decks I can understand why people are taking Magma Jet .
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Magma jet is just really good. Two damage to the dome or using it as removal and digging for what you need next can't be underestimated. So far in my testing it's never been a bad card to have.
Spirit jund and junk seem like bad matchups, but what do people think about dismember and electrickery in the board to help deal with these decks?
Shattering Blow is too narrow and we already aptly deal with Affinity by having so many main deck burns plus sideboard Magma Spray. Wurmcoil Engine is one card, and we can still win after it resolves by blocking and burning our own guys to finish the race. Jeff's advocated adding Stone Rain and Spreading Seas on the sideboard to REALLY mess up Tron, as well as affect other decks with manlands like Jund, UWR, and I think this is a better way of dealing with multiple match ups that aren't great.
If you really want, you can add some Turn // Burn on the sideboard to 1 for 1 Wurmcoil Engine along with other harder to kill creatures.
I do think turn//burn is a good card for this deck, but in some instances it may be better to exile an artifact, which shattering blow at least gives the option to do.
you haven't watched Jeff's streams. I've seen him race Wurmcoil Engines effectively multiple times by throwing his Snapcasters under the bus and burning it before combat damage. it's basically a really expensive Fog, but still one card.
you don't want to bring in sideboard cards that only hit 3-4 cards in an opponent's deck unless you absolutely lose when that card resolves. that's just not the case with Wurmcoil, which you can race. of course, it's a totally different story if two of them resolves, that's probably game then. with Spreading Seas and Stone Rains, it's pretty hard to resolve a an early Tron, and even then you have counter magic backup the likes of Remand and Mana Leak on the draw.
I've been wanting to make one but am missing alot of the money cards like Mutavault, Vendillion, and fetchs. I have delvers, a spellshutter, some of the good burn, 2 farie conclaves, a set of snaps, and some other junk, I just don't know if it's worth trying to build and work on yet or if I still need more for it to even work.
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Remand
4 Mana Leak
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Pillar of Flame
1 Electrolyze, Telling Time, Burst Lightning, etc.
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Arid Mesa
4 Mutavault
3 Steam Vent
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Sulfur Falls
4 Island
1 Mountain
The above deck is based on the premise of a black splash. The only difference without the black splash is that the lands would look as follows:
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Mutavault
4 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
5 Islands
1 Mountain
Annul was played in sideboards back when UW was a deck. I think it was mostly for ascension, splinter twin, and cranial plating back then.
I think with the red cards you don't need annul anymore.
Since you have 4 snapcasters I wouldn't fault you for playing a split of magma jet and telling time.
Telling time is a really bad magic card though, so I would not play more than 2.
You can win against big lifelinking creatures, though it's pretty rare, you need exceptional draws.
3 colors means no manlands and no blood moons. I don't have any experience with RUG delver in modern, but I do know that.
We don't know. We just know that the last time he updated his TappedOut on I believe Thursday, he had a URx variant without a black splash by siding in Turn // Burn and Sword of Light and Shadow.