Well that's too bad. Thanks for the pointer. Guess I'll be testing a Bow of Nylea or two after all.:p
The trick is that you can't pay "non-existant" costs. The cost of Living End is non-existant. Things that would work are things that care about the CMC of a card, like Isochron Scepter or Elite Arcanist. I'm not immediately aware of any that care about CMC and are playable though, just wanted to show you the type of templating to look for if you wanted to use that trick.
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Well I guess it is a very subtle rule difference between Living End having a lesser casting cost for Cascade purpose,and not having a defined 0 casting cost for Flashback purposes. Obviously Im no judge. Good to know before bringing it to a real tourney. Sorry if I cheated anyone in casual play.
Are you being aggressive with Beast Within by hitting their land base? That is something I have not been doing, and sound like a great way to bait counter spells as well. Im going to play with Sin Collector a few times in place of Slaughter Games to see if it works better in my meta if not Ill give SG a chance again.
I have tried playing aggressively with Beast Within, and experienced some moderate success with it. The trick is to do it on the opponent's upkeep, for a couple of reasons:
Doing it on their upkeep will allow them to to untap their mana first, but will force them to decide between keeping a land and tapping out before they even draw a card, or letting it go and be a turn behind on mana for the rest of the game.
Less experienced players (or those who kept a hand with a low land count) will often snap counter it, which leaves you free to cascade into LE on your turn.
More experienced players who know your deck (or people who have a lot of land in their hand) might let it rock, which can occasionally be an issue since they now have a 3/3 beast in play to your empty board. The good news is that doing it on their upkeep means that they can't attack with it at least until the next turn. The other good news is that you now have a target for all of the Demonic Dreads that are likely sitting in your hand. The bad news is that they have a 3/3 on board, and you probably won't be hard casting your dudes for another couple of turns.
I have been taking this route when the opportunity presents itself since I don't actually have Fulminator Mages (they're pricey!), and it can certainly work. Control decks usually play very few permanents anyway though, so there's not a lot else to do with your Beast Withins before then anyway.
I always aim for Colonnade too if I can. It takes out one of their win conditions.
Well, I personally run a manabase with a low amount of damage potential. Personally, I've found that usually I can take a hit or two from a beast token very safely
Im pretty new to magic (3 months maybe), and pretty new to modern, and living end - since that is my first deck. About two months.
I enjoy Living End - went to couple of tournaments - had fun all the time and won some great matches and suffered some nasty losses.
Okay here is the question of all questions - perfect deck. Please have a look at it and review my choices, is is ok? What to change or what to adjust? Any ideas? Thank you
This is what I came to:
Note: no fetches (still thinking if Ill keep the deck so no further investments at the moment)
My thoughts to my sideboard:
- I can deal with affinity (or artefact graveyard hate) with Ingot Chewers
- Kor Firewalker helps me with BURN (I replace the living ends and cascade into two Kors) than win by hardcasting
- Ricochet trap 3x - no explenation needed
- 2x Dismember is for Splinter Twin - instant speed with 1 mana cost?
- Two additional Faerie Macabres for some graveyard cleanups ...
I dunno man, that list looks pretty solid. Apart from the fetchland investment, I wouldn't change a thing. Maybe cut an Avalanche Riders for a 4th Beast Within, but that's being really nitpicky.
I know someone else in this thread is a fan of the Kor Firewalker tech, so I won't knock that. Have you tried other lifegain cards in that slot yet? (Gnaw to the Bone, Brindle Boar, etc.)
Leyline is sooo crispy against pod decks. I could seriously draw all 4 and I wouldn't have a care in the world. If they can't answer it, they have to outclass our big guys, which is pretty difficult. Not to mention they can't just dump dudes into viscera seer and invert their board too. You get the same value from boarding it in against affinity and it makes storm have to play around it, which they likely can't before you run em over.
This deck is about binning creatures for value. Whether that value is in the form of card draw, land tutoring, graveyard hate, artifact hate, lifegain, etc., everything in our deck gives us value.
If you want to run a reanimator deck where you get Grislebrand/Sire of Insanity/whatever out, you get none of that value. It's a valid archetype, but it doesn't fit what Living End does.
IMO, wasting slots on Trespasser il-Vec (or another 3+ CMC discard outlet) & fatties just dilutes the true power of this deck: Card Advantage.
Also, Platinum Emperion is pretty weak in Modern, and Emerakul shuffles the graveyard into your deck when he hits the graveyard. If you're looking for a Modern deck that reanimates one fatty and just wins, I'd recommend Glass-Cannon Griselbrand--but that's not what this deck wants to be doing.
Thanx for the answer yep I tried Gnaw to the Bone and Brindle Boar - I have both. But this was my thinking process:
I never needed "healing" prior round 3 - okay, by that round I have at least 3 creatures in the graveyard - and in that case Gnaw to the Bone seems quite better, even becasue its a instant speed.. Where boar isnt, and it also has flashback. So my thoughts were: Gnaw to the Bone is just better than Brindle Boar.
Ok and I need lifegain - only against some burn because other decks either kill me or I kill them, there is not space for healing that much, if affinity, tron, merfolk or others are killing me, they will do even if I gain some HP... so I was like ... ok I dont want healing that much - I just want to survive against BURN that is my biggest wakpoint and the best answer to that is Kor Firewalker...
And yeah the fetchlands ... Meybe in the future - and I will definitely consider the 4th Beast Within!
Im not sure about the Sloughter games... I ended up with 13slot side and needed to fill something that was "missing" - not sure if this is the best way... I wanted Slaughter Games because of some "special" cards that could surprise me
I have Goblins and Burn in my meta and I run both Gnaw to the Bone and Brindle Boar. I can't say they are more effective than Kor Firewalker but I am fairly confident they are. Each of the two cards has a different function during different phases of the game. Brindle Boar is relevant at all stages of the game, be it hardcast and blocking a creature to prevent damage and then sacrificed to gain 4 life. Brindle Boar does double duty as a source of damage often contributing to a lethal swing. It also recurrs with Living End. Gnaw to the Bone works particularly well if you are not afraid of graveyard hate. It is really good in the mirror as well to stall time but it is only good if you have dudes in the yard. Overall, Gnaw to the Bone nets you more life in a shorter amount of time, particularly if you can flash it back for a lesser mana expenditure. So it is really personal preference, but I do like how Brindle Boar can just slide into a flex spot in the main board whereas Gnaw to the Bone is strictly a sideboard option.
As to the matter of fetches, without fetches your Dryad Arbor is not as effective as it could be, also you'll likely want more Land Cycling creatures to smooth out your land draws. Verdant Catacombs is a fine long term investment whether you want to continue playing Living End or not because they can even be played in Legacy no problems. Land Cycling creatures only reduce your maximum creatures in the yard, but is a small price to pay to get off a timely Living End. They are also offset a bunch because they have a little better power and toughness and better abilities like Reach and Regeneration.
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My Modern decks: B/R/G Living End G/R/B G/R Tron R/G U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R
Another vote to Verdant Catacombs - even having just 2 of them makes the Dryad Arbor better. I'm pretty sure I've been running my list with -1 Catacombs, +1 Blackcleave Cliffs because I'm REALLY lazy and don't want to un-double-sleeve my extra Catacombs (which is in my Legacy Lands deck). I haven't noticed a difference. So even if you only end up acquiring them one at a time over a long period of time, they can work very well.
If money is no issue, Grove for sure. We take life out in such big chunks that the life gained off of Grove is unlikely to decrease our clock. Always coming in untapped is a bigger benefit than the life is a drawback.
That said, I personally feel like upgrading from Copperline to Grove isn't worth the money. The difference is pretty small since our primary game plan only needs three mana.
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Grove if you don't mind their price tag. We don't win by small enough margins for the life gain to be an issue and coming into play untapped all the time is worth it. That said, I DO mind the price tag and therefore don't play them myself, but they're amazing in the deck.
On the topic of flashback that i missed out on before, some of you may have been on the right track mentally but I don't think the reason it doesn't work was clearly articulated. It boils down to the fact that cascade allows you to play the spell without paying it's cost and flashback does not. LE has a non-existent mana cost which cannot be payed, so of an effect lets you play it, that effect has to specify that you're playing it without paying it's mana cost. The CMC only matters to us because cascade specifically cares, but it has nothing to do with why flashback doesn't work. For instance, someone could play spells with CMC ranging from LE all the way up to Time Stretch out of their opponent's yard with Memory Plunder because it says any instant or sorcery without paying it's mana cost, but you could not cast LE if you ripped it off of your opponent's library with Daxos of Meletis because you have to pay for cards he lets you play. Neither of those cards care about CMC, though.
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On the matter of Grove of the Burnwillows, if price were not an issue I would opt for them, and they are only really bad against Soul Sisters/Martyr-Proc.
Since price is a huge issue (I already have a set pre-Modern codify) I would say run the Scars lands
It only takes a little forethought to make them work just as well.
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My Modern decks: B/R/G Living End G/R/B G/R Tron R/G U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R
the mana base seems to be pretty forgiving in this deck. I've taken to running a 2/2 split of verdant catacombs and city of brass for budget reasons and it has been performing well. I still run 1-of dryad arbor but I don't find myself needing to search it up often, although there are times that the ability to search it up opens up lines of play for me.
That said I wouldn't play dryad arbor if I wasn't running verdant catacombs. Forbidden orchard fills arbor's slot nicely in this scenario but I wouldn't run it as more than a 1-2 of.
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the mana base seems to be pretty forgiving in this deck. I've taken to running a 2/2 split of verdant catacombs and city of brass for budget reasons and it has been performing well. I still run 1-of dryad arbor but I don't find myself needing to search it up often, although there are times that the ability to search it up opens up lines of play for me.
That said I wouldn't play dryad arbor if I wasn't running verdant catacombs. Forbidden orchard fills arbor's slot nicely in this scenario but I wouldn't run it as more than a 1-2 of.
only downside to arbor if your sometimes in a situation where your only at 3 lands and arbor is one of them, that 3rd land to replace dryad sometimes doesn't show up. but compared to orchard you figuratively have 5 or more arbors in the deck if your only running one of 4 fetches, where as orchard is an untutorable 1 of, which i don't like.
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the mana base seems to be pretty forgiving in this deck. I've taken to running a 2/2 split of verdant catacombs and city of brass for budget reasons and it has been performing well. I still run 1-of dryad arbor but I don't find myself needing to search it up often, although there are times that the ability to search it up opens up lines of play for me.
That said I wouldn't play dryad arbor if I wasn't running verdant catacombs. Forbidden orchard fills arbor's slot nicely in this scenario but I wouldn't run it as more than a 1-2 of.
only downside to arbor if your sometimes in a situation where your only at 3 lands and arbor is one of them, that 3rd land to replace dryad sometimes doesn't show up. but compared to orchard you figuratively have 5 or more arbors in the deck if your only running one of 4 fetches, where as orchard is an untutorable 1 of, which i don't like.
the situations where you actually want to tutor for dryad arbor are pretty slim really. It's nice to have the option with the fetches but I don't think I've ever actually wanted to search it up with landcycling. If you're not running fetches in your deck then personally I'd rather just play the orchard, since it taps for more than just G and you're basically just naturally drawing into both.
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Keep in mind, most people don't run dryad arbor as a land. Dryad arbor is a free spell that may give mana. Don't take out land to fit it in. My opinion.
is wear/tear converted mana cost 3? We can't cascade into this right?
Edit:
nvm
In every zone except the stack, split cards have two sets of characteristics and two converted mana costs. If anything needs information about a split card not on the stack, it will get two values.
I'm fairly certain that you would hit it with cascade.
The reason why is that you essentially get two answers back from "what is the CMC of this" (1 and 2) and if *either* answer is yes the total answer is yes. It's similar to how you can trick split cards with Isochron Scepter.
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The trick is that you can't pay "non-existant" costs. The cost of Living End is non-existant. Things that would work are things that care about the CMC of a card, like Isochron Scepter or Elite Arcanist. I'm not immediately aware of any that care about CMC and are playable though, just wanted to show you the type of templating to look for if you wanted to use that trick.
My Modern decks:
B/R/G Living End G/R/B
G/R Tron R/G
U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U
R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R
I have tried playing aggressively with Beast Within, and experienced some moderate success with it. The trick is to do it on the opponent's upkeep, for a couple of reasons:
Doing it on their upkeep will allow them to to untap their mana first, but will force them to decide between keeping a land and tapping out before they even draw a card, or letting it go and be a turn behind on mana for the rest of the game.
Less experienced players (or those who kept a hand with a low land count) will often snap counter it, which leaves you free to cascade into LE on your turn.
More experienced players who know your deck (or people who have a lot of land in their hand) might let it rock, which can occasionally be an issue since they now have a 3/3 beast in play to your empty board. The good news is that doing it on their upkeep means that they can't attack with it at least until the next turn. The other good news is that you now have a target for all of the Demonic Dreads that are likely sitting in your hand. The bad news is that they have a 3/3 on board, and you probably won't be hard casting your dudes for another couple of turns.
I have been taking this route when the opportunity presents itself since I don't actually have Fulminator Mages (they're pricey!), and it can certainly work. Control decks usually play very few permanents anyway though, so there's not a lot else to do with your Beast Withins before then anyway.
I always aim for Colonnade too if I can. It takes out one of their win conditions.
My Modern decks:
B/R/G Living End G/R/B
G/R Tron R/G
U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U
R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R
I dunno man, that list looks pretty solid. Apart from the fetchland investment, I wouldn't change a thing. Maybe cut an Avalanche Riders for a 4th Beast Within, but that's being really nitpicky.
I know someone else in this thread is a fan of the Kor Firewalker tech, so I won't knock that. Have you tried other lifegain cards in that slot yet? (Gnaw to the Bone, Brindle Boar, etc.)
:symb::symr::symg: Living End
Also, Platinum Emperion is pretty weak in Modern, and Emerakul shuffles the graveyard into your deck when he hits the graveyard. If you're looking for a Modern deck that reanimates one fatty and just wins, I'd recommend Glass-Cannon Griselbrand--but that's not what this deck wants to be doing.
I have Goblins and Burn in my meta and I run both Gnaw to the Bone and Brindle Boar. I can't say they are more effective than Kor Firewalker but I am fairly confident they are. Each of the two cards has a different function during different phases of the game. Brindle Boar is relevant at all stages of the game, be it hardcast and blocking a creature to prevent damage and then sacrificed to gain 4 life. Brindle Boar does double duty as a source of damage often contributing to a lethal swing. It also recurrs with Living End. Gnaw to the Bone works particularly well if you are not afraid of graveyard hate. It is really good in the mirror as well to stall time but it is only good if you have dudes in the yard. Overall, Gnaw to the Bone nets you more life in a shorter amount of time, particularly if you can flash it back for a lesser mana expenditure. So it is really personal preference, but I do like how Brindle Boar can just slide into a flex spot in the main board whereas Gnaw to the Bone is strictly a sideboard option.
As to the matter of fetches, without fetches your Dryad Arbor is not as effective as it could be, also you'll likely want more Land Cycling creatures to smooth out your land draws. Verdant Catacombs is a fine long term investment whether you want to continue playing Living End or not because they can even be played in Legacy no problems. Land Cycling creatures only reduce your maximum creatures in the yard, but is a small price to pay to get off a timely Living End. They are also offset a bunch because they have a little better power and toughness and better abilities like Reach and Regeneration.
My Modern decks:
B/R/G Living End G/R/B
G/R Tron R/G
U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U
R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R
More to Spitle's point, I would recommend shaving a Jungle Weaver or the 3rd Avalanche Riders for another landcycler in the meantime; Twisted Abomination is a fine choice, or you could add the 4th Pale Recluse as another means of fetching that Dryad Arbor.
If money is no issue, Grove for sure. We take life out in such big chunks that the life gained off of Grove is unlikely to decrease our clock. Always coming in untapped is a bigger benefit than the life is a drawback.
That said, I personally feel like upgrading from Copperline to Grove isn't worth the money. The difference is pretty small since our primary game plan only needs three mana.
On the topic of flashback that i missed out on before, some of you may have been on the right track mentally but I don't think the reason it doesn't work was clearly articulated. It boils down to the fact that cascade allows you to play the spell without paying it's cost and flashback does not. LE has a non-existent mana cost which cannot be payed, so of an effect lets you play it, that effect has to specify that you're playing it without paying it's mana cost. The CMC only matters to us because cascade specifically cares, but it has nothing to do with why flashback doesn't work. For instance, someone could play spells with CMC ranging from LE all the way up to Time Stretch out of their opponent's yard with Memory Plunder because it says any instant or sorcery without paying it's mana cost, but you could not cast LE if you ripped it off of your opponent's library with Daxos of Meletis because you have to pay for cards he lets you play. Neither of those cards care about CMC, though.
Modern
BGR Living End RGB
G Nykthos Wave G
Since price is a huge issue (I already have a set pre-Modern codify) I would say run the Scars lands
It only takes a little forethought to make them work just as well.
My Modern decks:
B/R/G Living End G/R/B
G/R Tron R/G
U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U
R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R
That said I wouldn't play dryad arbor if I wasn't running verdant catacombs. Forbidden orchard fills arbor's slot nicely in this scenario but I wouldn't run it as more than a 1-2 of.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
only downside to arbor if your sometimes in a situation where your only at 3 lands and arbor is one of them, that 3rd land to replace dryad sometimes doesn't show up. but compared to orchard you figuratively have 5 or more arbors in the deck if your only running one of 4 fetches, where as orchard is an untutorable 1 of, which i don't like.
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the situations where you actually want to tutor for dryad arbor are pretty slim really. It's nice to have the option with the fetches but I don't think I've ever actually wanted to search it up with landcycling. If you're not running fetches in your deck then personally I'd rather just play the orchard, since it taps for more than just G and you're basically just naturally drawing into both.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
Edit:
nvm
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
The reason why is that you essentially get two answers back from "what is the CMC of this" (1 and 2) and if *either* answer is yes the total answer is yes. It's similar to how you can trick split cards with Isochron Scepter.