I usually bring in all copies of Nature's Claim, since most Storm decks bring in Blood Moon. I like keeping in Emrakul and siding out Wurmcoil Engine. I find that the lifegain usually doesn't matter much, whereas Emrakul closes the game definitively, even though it's difficult to cast. I don't have Slaughter Games in my sideboard, but I imagine Grapeshot is indeed the more dangerous card.
I'm very dubious about Emrakul against Storm. I've been testing a fair amount against it, and the game is pretty much *always* decided one way or the other by the time I can cast Emrakul. Sure he seals up the game, but if you're able to cast him, then the game is almost certainly already sealed up for you, and the card is completely useless prior to that point. You can't cast him any earlier than turn 6 (and even turn 6 requires everything to line up perfectly), and against Storm the game is already decided by that point because if they haven't killed you yet, you're going to win.
Boarding out Wurmcoil Engine isn't a bad idea, though I don't think I'd want to board them all out, because it's still a bit relevant and leaving Emrakul as the sole win condition seems iffy.
Perhaps I'm wrong, but against most combo decks (Storm, Twin, Scapeshift, etc.) I find Wurmcoil to be very low impact. The lifegain tends not to matter, and it can't race their combo. Therefore, Wurmcoil Engine is only useful in conjunction with hate as a clock, and, especially in the case of Twin and Scapeshift, an unreliable one. Emrakul, by contrast, comes online much later but closes the game more quickly and reliably. I haven't had much trouble having Emrakul as my sole win condition against combo decks. It's true that you only have time to cast him if you've stabilized, but I'd argue the same is often true of Wurmcoil, except Wurmcoil is easier to answer and takes up more deck space.
Are people still seriously dense enough to say that enemy fetches won't be in the set? We were explicitly told that Wizards will not be doing half-cycles of lands in block sets. We got the allied fetches in Khans, couple Wizards' statement with other hints, the enemy fetches will be in Dragons. You have to be a complete idiot to believe otherwise.
This is why I like Sundering Titan. It's a clock that impacts the board. You can drop it on turn 4, or turn 5 if you have to search it up. It will usually win you the game against Storm if you've survived to that point. It also helps against Scapeshift, Twin, etc. It lets you board out Wurmcoils and still have a very resilient, impactful threat.
This is why I like Sundering Titan. It's a clock that impacts the board. You can drop it on turn 4, or turn 5 if you have to search it up. It will usually win you the game against Storm if you've survived to that point. It also helps against Scapeshift, Twin, etc. It lets you board out Wurmcoils and still have a very resilient, impactful threat.
Sundering Titan is always at least a 1-of in the main or side because of Shockland value to the format. So much so that I'm surprised Lord Seth's not running at least 1. It at least helps against combo because killing lands interacts with Combo decks about the only place we can without splashing heavier black for Duress.
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
Perhaps I'm wrong, but against most combo decks (Storm, Twin, Scapeshift, etc.) I find Wurmcoil to be very low impact. The lifegain tends not to matter, and it can't race their combo. Therefore, Wurmcoil Engine is only useful in conjunction with hate as a clock, and, especially in the case of Twin and Scapeshift, an unreliable one. Emrakul, by contrast, comes online much later but closes the game more quickly and reliably. I haven't had much trouble having Emrakul as my sole win condition against combo decks. It's true that you only have time to cast him if you've stabilized, but I'd argue the same is often true of Wurmcoil, except Wurmcoil is easier to answer and takes up more deck space.
I wasn't talking about Twin and Scapeshift, though. In my view, the only decks you want Emrakul against are decks where the following two criteria can simultaneously be true:
1) You have access to 15 or more mana.
2) You have a reasonable chance of losing the game.
Against Storm, that very rarely happens. If you have 15 mana, that means the Storm player either tried to go off and fizzled, or you prevented them from going off at all. In other words: You've already won. You say that's true of Wurmcoil Engine, but Wurmcoil Engine can sometimes be relevant earlier in the game, whereas Emrakul can never be cast until later on, at which point the game is already decided.
Against Scapeshift and Twin (especially Twin), there's a much higher chance of those two criteria existing simultaneously. Thus you want Emrakul against them.
However, I disagree with your assessment that Wurmcoil Engine is bad against Twin. Well, it is... and it isn't. It tends to either be extremely useful or extremely useless, and you don't really know before the game itself which it will be. If they win with the combo, it does nothing, but if they don't, Wurmcoil Engine is a godsend for stopping them from just killing you off with their creatures. A couple of Pestermites attacking for 4 damage each turn is a lot less impressive when you're gaining 6 life per turn, and Wurmcoil Engine is able to tangle with Tarmogoyf and survive. Against Scapeshift it's less impressive, though if you can connect with it once, then Spellskite will save you from the normal 36-damage Scapeshift by letting you pay 24 life to redirect it all to Spellskite.
This is why I like Sundering Titan. It's a clock that impacts the board. You can drop it on turn 4, or turn 5 if you have to search it up. It will usually win you the game against Storm if you've survived to that point. It also helps against Scapeshift, Twin, etc. It lets you board out Wurmcoils and still have a very resilient, impactful threat.
Sundering Titan is always at least a 1-of in the main or side because of Shockland value to the format. So much so that I'm surprised Lord Seth's not running at least 1. It at least helps against combo because killing lands interacts with Combo decks about the only place we can without splashing heavier black for Duress.
Well, first, the claim that it's "always at least a 1-of" is false. For example, the most recent big finish for a Tron deck, GP Antwerp, didn't play any copies of it. But if you want more recent information (Antwerp was a while ago), MTG Goldfish reports that only 54% of successful Tron lists on MTGO play Sundering Titan.
Personally, I don't like Sundering Titan. I tried it out and didn't really think it was that great. Now, against Scapeshift it's amazing (especially when backed up with Cavern of Souls) but otherwise I've not been impressed by it. It's always felt like it just won me games I was already going to win while not helping me at all in the games I lost.
Have you ever tryed boil in sb? If it never resolve against twin/basicly any blue based decks, it should be gamer maker on it's own, and since it's instant you can always lure some counter to it on their end which will clear route on your main phase karn/wurmcoil/sundering titan. Personally I'm eager to test how it will work in sb and here is my current build.
Any thoughts? I'm not a fan of slaugter games and I'm not expecting facing storm decks overral in my current meta so my hate against it is pretty minimal.
Have you ever tryed boil in sb? If it never resolve against twin/basicly any blue based decks, it should be gamer maker on it's own, and since it's instant you can always lure some counter to it on their end which will clear route on your main phase karn/wurmcoil/sundering titan. Personally I'm eager to test how it will work in sb and here is my current build.
Any thoughts? I'm not a fan of slaugter games and I'm not expecting facing storm decks overral in my current meta so my hate against it is pretty minimal.
Slaughter games is able to just win you the game, or near enough right on the spot. I k ow I've considered boil but decided defense grid was a better option since it came down a turn sooner and I can get it off of an ancient stirrings.
So for all of you who play on MTGO and those that have a Splinter Twin/ Combo heavy meta; What's your decklist and how well does it work?
To be perfectly honest I'm just tired of the turn 4 oh look I happen have these 2 cards, good game that I seem to be going against mainly. I've been trying to come up with a way to deal with it and it seems when I draw my hate for the combo they can just go to their beat down option and vice-versa, it really seems to be an uphill battle. I'm just curious about other people's experiences and what works for them.
I've been considering Thorn of Amethyst to help slow down everyone.
I haven't played it so this is pure theorycrafting, but the issue I have with Thorn of Amethyst is that it slows you down just as much, if not more, than the opponent. Except for Emrakul and Wurmcoil Engine, every card in our deck is a noncreature spell. So for it to be good, it has to hurt our opponent more than it hurts us, and the only decks that really applies to is Storm and Eggs variants (it's good against decks like Scapeshift, but as I noted it penalizes us about as hard as it penalizes them). If Storm was a much bigger portion of the meta I might consider running it, though.
My matchup against splintertwin on MTGO is 45%/50%...
The first match is very hard, and usually i never win it.
But we have good sideboard option: I use torpor orb x3 or x4, nature claim, choke x2 or x3, with defense grid you can buy one turn...I use pithing needle too, but it's more risky, you can name exarch and pestersmite and lose thanks to kiki...but i win a couple of match with needle. (sorry for my English!)
Spellskite is my favorite versatile SB out. It's great against Twin, Burn, Bogles, Infect, and D&T, and functionally useful in many others.
You can dig for it with Ancient Stirrings, and fetch it with Eye of Ugin, so it's always been an all-star for the sideboard. I'd never run fewer than three in the SB against an open field.
Skite can steal Splinter Twin directly, or redirect the tap/untap triggers of Pestermite. It also blocks well against TarmoTwin. I usually side out my four Pyroclasms and three Relics for four Skites and three Torpor Orbs in that match.
Between Torpor Orb, Nature's Claim, and Skite, you end up with a very solid Twin matchup. I keep Slaughter Games as the last card in my board just in case some other combo deck or mirror match shows up, and it's also good when you slow down your opponent with the other SB cards I listed to completely take them out of the game.
Personally I found Nature's Claim to be kinda lackluster against Splinter Twin because of how easily they can tap down your Green source with their end-of-turn Pestermite/Exarch, then cast Splinter Twin next turn without you able to cast the Claim. Plus if they have a Spellskite they can just redirect it to that instead.
That's part of the reason I run four Spellskites in my sideboard. It's a card I want in multiples, and as soon as possible, in matches where I'd bring it in.
It hitting the board means they have to Exarch/Kiki the combo off properly, so being able to push them to turn 5 at the earliest means my Karns, Torpor Orbs, O-Stones, and even Claims and SGs are much more capable by then. It steals both Pestermite and Exarch targeting if they are trying to tap down your stuff as well, so it really gums them up.
Combust is good against them, but the other cards we could bring in are much stronger overall against several other decks. If I know there are UWR variants along with a solid Twin presence, Combusts could come into my SB slots. As is, I don't really feel like I'm terribly threatened enough through three games in a single round against those enough to specialize with it over the cards that could be better in more matches that are more uphill for us.
I think Combust has enough relevance to merit inclusion; it's of course good against Twin, but it's also good against Kiki-Pod, every single UWR deck I can think of, and some more fringe decks like Merfolk or Soul Sisters. Also, one thing I like about it versus Twin is they rarely have an actual way to stop it; they have Ancient Grudge to 2-for-1 your artifact hate (Torpor Orb, Spellskite) but Combust just kills off their creature with them having no real way to stop it.
Then again, I always have trouble figuring out how to sideboard against Twin. I have tons of stuff to bring in (2x Combust 1x Defense Grid 1x Firespout 4x Nature's Claim 1x Relic of Progenitus 3x Slaughter Games 2x Torpor Orb 1x Wurmcoil Engine is my sideboard... have 2 Spellskites and 2 Relics maindeck), but there's so much it's tough to board it all in. My usual plan is -2 Relic of Progenitus -4 Pyroclasm -1 Wurmcoil Engine -1 Karn Liberated +2 Combust +1 Defense Grid +3 Slaughter Games +2 Torpor Orb.
Tec Edge is best but ghost quarter works too, especially in stopping tron from forming. Toss in a Crucible of worlds and you can just destroy the lands. It's effective.
Q2 Is Tectonic edge, Ghost Quarter AND encroaching wastes going to work?
They will buy you time, but Tron can reassemble itself quickly. You either need to hit it constantly with land destruction (Crucible of Worlds helps), or kill the opponent before it can rebuild the combo.
I am playing slowish white.
It seems quite good.
And I cant beat Tron.
"Slowish White" is vague as all heck. What deck is it actually? "Slowish White" tells me nothing.
Q1 What White, Modern card is best against Tron?
Probably Stony Silence, though without knowing better what "Slowish White" means I can't comment fully.
Q2 Is Tectonic edge, Ghost Quarter AND encroaching wastes going to work?
Well again, without knowing what your deck actually is I can't comment much. But I will say that Encroaching Wastes is utter garbage and you shouldn't bother using it ever in Modern.
And... Given some time, how would Stony Silence do anything?
These seem to be the standard artifacts listed....
1 Spellskite
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Chromatic Star
4 Expedition Map
4 Oblivion Stone
3 Relic of Progenitus
The Relic will just disappear in repsonce.
So..17 cards are locked.
And, Sphere & Star may well get used before stoney Silence even hits, if Tron is on the play
Same with E-Map too I spoze.
But the Oblivion Stone and SpellSkite are going to be stopped.
Thing is, All is Dust & Karn are still going to win the game if they get cast.
All they are going to have enough time if I am playing solutions in White.
Slowing the Tron just doesn't seem enough. Tron has this relentless, overpowering strength to it. Trying to outlast Tron just doesn't seem to work. Story circle and damage prevention is laughable against 'Sac 6 permanents'
I think the cards I am looking for are along the lines of 'Cataclysm' or 'Armageddon', and yes, I know they are not in Modern, but those two would be real answers to Tron.
Stoney Silence Looks like it would work in a faster aggro deck against Tron.
I think I am likely to use a couple in sideboard anyway since they work against Affinity.
I think I may try out the Crucible of Worlds approach.
RG Tron no longer meets the Proven requirements at this time. Although the deck remains a force on MTGO (making up about 3.5% of the metagame there), it has taken a huge dive in other scenes. Tron has seen no T8/T16 appearances at GP/Worlds/PT style events since the ban update in January, and sees only minimal play at large paper events. This deck has been Proven for a long time so I bet it will be coming back soon.
Just a qestions for you guys about sideboarding.
Do you ever side out Karn Liberated at all?
Because against really aggressive decks I tend to do that along with Emrakul, the Aeons Torn to make room for an additional Wurmcoil Engine, Oblivion Stone, Spellskite because I find that these dont do enough there and cutting the digging seems contro productive since you do want to find you haymakers in the matchup as fast as possible.
Also is it normal for you guys to basically side in Nature's Claim in every matchup? I feel like almost any deck is running some kind of enchantment or artifact to hose us.
Just checking if my thought process is right or not.
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Boarding out Wurmcoil Engine isn't a bad idea, though I don't think I'd want to board them all out, because it's still a bit relevant and leaving Emrakul as the sole win condition seems iffy.
Wiser than the average monkey.
Omnath, Locus of Mana | RG Tron
Sundering Titan is always at least a 1-of in the main or side because of Shockland value to the format. So much so that I'm surprised Lord Seth's not running at least 1. It at least helps against combo because killing lands interacts with Combo decks about the only place we can without splashing heavier black for Duress.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
1) You have access to 15 or more mana.
2) You have a reasonable chance of losing the game.
Against Storm, that very rarely happens. If you have 15 mana, that means the Storm player either tried to go off and fizzled, or you prevented them from going off at all. In other words: You've already won. You say that's true of Wurmcoil Engine, but Wurmcoil Engine can sometimes be relevant earlier in the game, whereas Emrakul can never be cast until later on, at which point the game is already decided.
Against Scapeshift and Twin (especially Twin), there's a much higher chance of those two criteria existing simultaneously. Thus you want Emrakul against them.
However, I disagree with your assessment that Wurmcoil Engine is bad against Twin. Well, it is... and it isn't. It tends to either be extremely useful or extremely useless, and you don't really know before the game itself which it will be. If they win with the combo, it does nothing, but if they don't, Wurmcoil Engine is a godsend for stopping them from just killing you off with their creatures. A couple of Pestermites attacking for 4 damage each turn is a lot less impressive when you're gaining 6 life per turn, and Wurmcoil Engine is able to tangle with Tarmogoyf and survive. Against Scapeshift it's less impressive, though if you can connect with it once, then Spellskite will save you from the normal 36-damage Scapeshift by letting you pay 24 life to redirect it all to Spellskite.
Well, first, the claim that it's "always at least a 1-of" is false. For example, the most recent big finish for a Tron deck, GP Antwerp, didn't play any copies of it. But if you want more recent information (Antwerp was a while ago), MTG Goldfish reports that only 54% of successful Tron lists on MTGO play Sundering Titan.
Personally, I don't like Sundering Titan. I tried it out and didn't really think it was that great. Now, against Scapeshift it's amazing (especially when backed up with Cavern of Souls) but otherwise I've not been impressed by it. It's always felt like it just won me games I was already going to win while not helping me at all in the games I lost.
Slaughter games is able to just win you the game, or near enough right on the spot. I k ow I've considered boil but decided defense grid was a better option since it came down a turn sooner and I can get it off of an ancient stirrings.
UWR MiraclesUWR
Veteran WalkerBUG
Lands RUG
Karn
To be perfectly honest I'm just tired of the turn 4 oh look I happen have these 2 cards, good game that I seem to be going against mainly. I've been trying to come up with a way to deal with it and it seems when I draw my hate for the combo they can just go to their beat down option and vice-versa, it really seems to be an uphill battle. I'm just curious about other people's experiences and what works for them.
I've been considering Thorn of Amethyst to help slow down everyone.
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Llanowar Wastes
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Forest
Sorcery (11)
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Sylvan Scrying
2 Firespout
1 All Is Dust
4 Expedition Map
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Chromatic Star
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Oblivion Stone
1 Staff of Nin
Creature(6)
2 Spellskite
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Planeswalker(4)
4 Karn Liberated
2 Vandalblast
2 Combust
3 Nature's Claim
2 Slaughter Games
1 Firespout
2 Defense Grid
2 Torpor Orb
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
UWR MiraclesUWR
Veteran WalkerBUG
Lands RUG
Karn
The first match is very hard, and usually i never win it.
But we have good sideboard option: I use torpor orb x3 or x4, nature claim, choke x2 or x3, with defense grid you can buy one turn...I use pithing needle too, but it's more risky, you can name exarch and pestersmite and lose thanks to kiki...but i win a couple of match with needle. (sorry for my English!)
You can dig for it with Ancient Stirrings, and fetch it with Eye of Ugin, so it's always been an all-star for the sideboard. I'd never run fewer than three in the SB against an open field.
Skite can steal Splinter Twin directly, or redirect the tap/untap triggers of Pestermite. It also blocks well against TarmoTwin. I usually side out my four Pyroclasms and three Relics for four Skites and three Torpor Orbs in that match.
Between Torpor Orb, Nature's Claim, and Skite, you end up with a very solid Twin matchup. I keep Slaughter Games as the last card in my board just in case some other combo deck or mirror match shows up, and it's also good when you slow down your opponent with the other SB cards I listed to completely take them out of the game.
Combust is quite good against them, though.
It hitting the board means they have to Exarch/Kiki the combo off properly, so being able to push them to turn 5 at the earliest means my Karns, Torpor Orbs, O-Stones, and even Claims and SGs are much more capable by then. It steals both Pestermite and Exarch targeting if they are trying to tap down your stuff as well, so it really gums them up.
Combust is good against them, but the other cards we could bring in are much stronger overall against several other decks. If I know there are UWR variants along with a solid Twin presence, Combusts could come into my SB slots. As is, I don't really feel like I'm terribly threatened enough through three games in a single round against those enough to specialize with it over the cards that could be better in more matches that are more uphill for us.
Then again, I always have trouble figuring out how to sideboard against Twin. I have tons of stuff to bring in (2x Combust 1x Defense Grid 1x Firespout 4x Nature's Claim 1x Relic of Progenitus 3x Slaughter Games 2x Torpor Orb 1x Wurmcoil Engine is my sideboard... have 2 Spellskites and 2 Relics maindeck), but there's so much it's tough to board it all in. My usual plan is -2 Relic of Progenitus -4 Pyroclasm -1 Wurmcoil Engine -1 Karn Liberated +2 Combust +1 Defense Grid +3 Slaughter Games +2 Torpor Orb.
I cant beat Tron.
I am playing slowish white.
It seems quite good.
And I cant beat Tron.
Q1 What White, Modern card is best against Tron?
Q2 Is Tectonic edge, Ghost Quarter AND encroaching wastes going to work?
Stony Silence
Tec Edge is best but ghost quarter works too, especially in stopping tron from forming. Toss in a Crucible of worlds and you can just destroy the lands. It's effective.
UWR MiraclesUWR
Veteran WalkerBUG
Lands RUG
Karn
Stony Silence IMO, but you either need it very early (Turn 2 if possible), or you need to combine it with land destruction.
They will buy you time, but Tron can reassemble itself quickly. You either need to hit it constantly with land destruction (Crucible of Worlds helps), or kill the opponent before it can rebuild the combo.
Probably Stony Silence, though without knowing better what "Slowish White" means I can't comment fully.
Well again, without knowing what your deck actually is I can't comment much. But I will say that Encroaching Wastes is utter garbage and you shouldn't bother using it ever in Modern.
But, .. Why is Stony Silence going to stop Tron?
I took a reasonable list from last page...
1 Spellskite
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Karn Liberated
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Chromatic Star
4 Expedition Map
4 Oblivion Stone
1 Firespout
2 Pyroclasm
1 All is Dust
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Sylvan Scrying
1 Forest
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
And... Given some time, how would Stony Silence do anything?
These seem to be the standard artifacts listed....
1 Spellskite
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Chromatic Star
4 Expedition Map
4 Oblivion Stone
3 Relic of Progenitus
The Relic will just disappear in repsonce.
So..17 cards are locked.
And, Sphere & Star may well get used before stoney Silence even hits, if Tron is on the play
Same with E-Map too I spoze.
But the Oblivion Stone and SpellSkite are going to be stopped.
Thing is, All is Dust & Karn are still going to win the game if they get cast.
All they are going to have enough time if I am playing solutions in White.
Slowing the Tron just doesn't seem enough. Tron has this relentless, overpowering strength to it. Trying to outlast Tron just doesn't seem to work. Story circle and damage prevention is laughable against 'Sac 6 permanents'
I think the cards I am looking for are along the lines of 'Cataclysm' or 'Armageddon', and yes, I know they are not in Modern, but those two would be real answers to Tron.
Stoney Silence Looks like it would work in a faster aggro deck against Tron.
I think I am likely to use a couple in sideboard anyway since they work against Affinity.
I think I may try out the Crucible of Worlds approach.
(I am playing an Oddball Martyr/Proc deck)
Thank you all for your help.
RG Tron no longer meets the Proven requirements at this time. Although the deck remains a force on MTGO (making up about 3.5% of the metagame there), it has taken a huge dive in other scenes. Tron has seen no T8/T16 appearances at GP/Worlds/PT style events since the ban update in January, and sees only minimal play at large paper events. This deck has been Proven for a long time so I bet it will be coming back soon.
Do you ever side out Karn Liberated at all?
Because against really aggressive decks I tend to do that along with Emrakul, the Aeons Torn to make room for an additional Wurmcoil Engine, Oblivion Stone, Spellskite because I find that these dont do enough there and cutting the digging seems contro productive since you do want to find you haymakers in the matchup as fast as possible.
Also is it normal for you guys to basically side in Nature's Claim in every matchup? I feel like almost any deck is running some kind of enchantment or artifact to hose us.
Just checking if my thought process is right or not.