Geist isnt bad vs fae either, they have very few ways to profitably interact with him, and no, double blocks from tokens arent one of it, you are still giving 2 life and 2 turns worth of tokens for that, and keep in mind that uwr still runs eiganjo, or bolt effects.
I think this is a key point...If Fae turn 1 fetch, shock thoughseizes and then turn 2 bitterblossoms, they essentially start the game at 14 life...having fae double block a geist and letting that 4/4 flyer through means they are at 10...
There is a really solid chance that you can burn them out from there, or let bitterblossom kill them...
Geist isnt bad vs fae either, they have very few ways to profitably interact with him, and no, double blocks from tokens arent one of it, you are still giving 2 life and 2 turns worth of tokens for that, and keep in mind that uwr still runs eiganjo, or bolt effects.
I think this is a key point...If Fae turn 1 fetch, shock thoughseizes and then turn 2 bitterblossoms, they essentially start the game at 14 life...having fae double block a geist and letting that 4/4 flyer through means they are at 10...
There is a really solid chance that you can burn them out from there, or let bitterblossom kill them...
Only Grixis or BUG Fae run shocks/fetches. Straight UB has enough in-color duals that they don't need/ don't want to run fetches and shocks, which I think is a good call given the reach most of the meta has with burn spells. I think Grixis Fae lists still look pretty similar to what they were pre-B&R, which was never a bad matchup for UWR.
Eyron, thank you for posting your thoughts on the RWU vs UB Faeries matchup that is sure to be popular over the next PTQ season. A question: since you consider Electrolyze a poor choice in the upcoming meta (I agree it is generally poor against Zoo, I'll have to see it in action against Fae to form an opinion there) do you think it possible that RWU Control will be better off dropping the red for a different color in the future? Electrolyze is the real reason to run red in my opinion. Exchanging it for something like black would allow the use of various tools like actual removal spells (Doom Blade, Smother, etc.) as well as discard of its own. It also would gain access to new tools, such as Esper Charm (a main deck able answer to BB) and potentially even Mystical Teachings.
Edit: ugh, the new forum format is horrendous for posting with a Galaxy.
I don't think so. Lightning Bolt/Helx are both very powerful right now. Thundermaw Hellkite should be suuuuuuper good as well, with an increase in fliers being pretty likely. It also has boardwipe options at 3 mana that are better than anything the other 4 colors have, so I would think red is still king.
I think it is important to remember, that against zoo if you don't run Geist, they can also easily remove plenty of your threats...they do run 4xPtE for man lands and resto angel, and bolt/helix will take care of snapcaster and vendillion clique...
Also, while I believe the faeries matchup is not great for UWR midrange, I also don't think UB faeries will NOT be able to handle most of current tier 1 modern and will be in the realm of bogles as an annoying deck to deal with, but not top tier...
Huh. Go figure, can't talk about matchups in a thread. Good to know Conquistas.
Ignore them. Thanks for the input man I really appreciate it, its welcome to hear. I think its hard to judge, b/c although Electolyze may be bad against Fae it seems pretty good against a lot of other stuff that is pretty popular in the format, plus there is always the burn to your face route vs Fae, which seems more legit as Fae dealing themselves 6-8 over the course of the game isnt so far fetched. I'm running lots of hate that can hit BB in the side, 2 clestial purge, 2 Explosives, 1 disenchant. From what your saying BB is just a gigantic threat that needs to be dealt with. Its almost in a way like cranial plating for affinity, but more resilient.
Regarding Geist I think its worth keeping in. It does a massive amount of work vs so much of the format, and can easily be boarded out for a more control route.
Geist seems crucial to beating Bitterblossom, in some strange ways. They can hold up two guys and block the Geist coming in and risk Electrolyze/Bolt/Path taking out their advantage. They can race and lose. Geist is the only thing that presents two threats each turn. I like it a lot since you can just jam it and make the opponent either solve it or lose. It reminds me of playing Platinum Angel in Tron - it's not great on its own but once it's in play, all you have to do is protect it and the opponent's plan is irrelevant. Faeries feels like you want to maximize all your 2-for-1s (which are few in number) because they don't have any. I also suspect I'd be siding out Cryptics against Faeries.
If you really fear Bitterblossom, then Celestial Purge is probably better off the board than Spell Snare is (since you can rip it off the top).
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Geist seems crucial to beating Bitterblossom, in some strange ways. They can hold up two guys and block the Geist coming in and risk Electrolyze/Bolt/Path taking out their advantage. They can race and lose. Geist is the only thing that presents two threats each turn. I like it a lot since you can just jam it and make the opponent either solve it or lose. It reminds me of playing Platinum Angel in Tron - it's not great on its own but once it's in play, all you have to do is protect it and the opponent's plan is irrelevant. Faeries feels like you want to maximize all your 2-for-1s (which are few in number) because they don't have any. I also suspect I'd be siding out Cryptics against Faeries.
If you really fear Bitterblossom, then Celestial Purge is probably better off the board than Spell Snare is (since you can rip it off the top).
I agree on the cryptics. Getting into a CC war agaisnt faeries is not really where i want to be at, to be honest.
And seriously guys, by this time, everybody should understand that spell snare is a maindeck card, not a SB one.
I think you may be undervaluing Vendillion Clique. You are right that he draws removal, but that isn't always a bad thing. Against zoo, for example, he takes the best non-land card from their hand and either draws a bolt away from your face, starts the clock on them, or blocks a nacatl.
FWIW I don't expect Affinity to be too popular very far into the new Modern format. Before Deathrite Shaman was printed and Nacatl was legal, Zoo ruled the aggro decks. In fact, the specific reason that Nacatl was banned was that it oppressed all of the other aggro decks by dominating all of their 1 drops. If you were playing aggro, but not Wild Nacatl, you were playing at a disadvantage. This, coupled with the rise of Jund in popularity, stifled the other aggro decks in the format (midrange decks like Jund and Junk tend to be very good against most aggro decks - burn and affinity are exceptions due to their very fast speed and evasion). I suspect that once people start ironing out their Zoo lists this will become the norm again. I don't know how good Tron will be. If Fae and Zoo wind up being popular, it may get much worse. It has difficulty with counterspells and 3 toughness creatures in fast decks. If that is the case, Stony Silence may wind up being unnecessary.
So, I've been playing the deck lately and I side out Geist quite frequently (second only to Remand). Do you guys do the same or am I doing something wrong? I seldom side out all the copies, but usually will take out 1 or 2 for more removal against decks with lots of potential blockers.
I play the same list that won GP Prague and even with just 1 Resto, it wins a lot of games to me. It's a very resilient and efficient beater, even if you don't get extra value from the blink ability.
played in a small lgs fnm like modern event and went 4-0. Deck played fantastically, but did have some tough games.
vs Rock
G1 bolt/helix/path his finks out of the way of geist. Tech edge keeping him at 4 lands off game winners. Geist + collonade did the rest.
G2 similar to game one but with more counter backup. Pithing needle turning off Garruk helped tremendously.
2-0
vs Goblins
G1 took massive amounts of burn to the face but stabilized around 5 life with plenty of counter protection. Geist for the win.
G2 total red deck blow-out. Miss played by not playing around bloodmoon by fetching for shocks instead of basics. GG
G3 Torpor orb shutting of some of his deck slowed his pace. Burn + Geist win.
2-1
vs Affinity
G1 over before it even started. Spell snare + peirce keeping him off plating for the game. His only clock was etched. Easily won the race with Geist.
G2 even more of a blowout with sideboard. 2 for 1 with electrolyze + thundermaw was a killer.
2-0
vs Meliera Pod
G1 he never got pod up and running as path did a good job at keeping from going off. Stabilized at 2 life with snap + cryptic. Geist again for the win.
G2 Drew into lots of burn but no paths, fairly quick game after he landed Sigarda.
G3 another close game, much more of a typical tempo match with pithing needle shutting off pod. Burn + Geist win.
2-1
overall a great day. Pod was by far the hardest match as all the games were really close. They just have so many major threats to land each turn + Gavony Township doing soo much work for them.
Geist was absolutely key, although in some matchups where I was playing the control role, i.e. affinity and goblins I would side out 2-3 Geist in favor of sweepers and specific hate. Remand also came out a bunch, particularly against decks with a really low curve. Remand is a timewalk against Rock, but barely does anything vs Goblins.
Also as a side note, this was the first time I was playing with fetches as I just got 4 tarns. Holy cow! Its like my deck doubled in its power just from 4 cards. Awesome.
played in a small lgs fnm like modern event and went 4-0. Deck played fantastically, but did have some tough games.
Interresting, can I see your list? You mentioned Spell Snare and Spell Pierce maindeck, so it sounds like a lower curve than the GPT Prague winner deck.
back from my modern event.
went very badly and i cannot really find a reason why.
we where over 100 players and i am not exaggerating when i say 80% of them played URW (slightly different lists going from midrange to control).
the rest of the metagame was pod, zoo, and jund plus random decks.
i make a final change to the SB taking the mono mind censor out for an anger of the gods.
turn 1: Mirror 0-2
G1 i keep and hand with 2 helix, 1 electrolyze and 1 snap caster with no red mana. it will come on 4th turn (sulfur falls, comes in tapped because i had 2 colonnades and a tectonic edge) and becomes destroyed by the opponent tectonic. i die slowly by a snap caster.
G2 i get double tectonic edged on turn 4 remaining with no blue (1 sacred foundry, 1 tectonic edge). i die again without being able to resolve a spell.
turn 2: boom/bust land/hand disruption 1-1
the guy played a random deck with lingering souls, lightning helix, liliana, elspeth, and ajani, using inquisition of kozilek and boom bust to make hard for me to play. G1 lasts long, he resolves 2 lilianas and 2 lingering, i handle them all but a liliana being able to get to the ultimate (-6) but i have 8 lands on board, and finally win by colonnade and clique.
G2 i am in control until he top decks in late game a boom bust which destroys ALL lands, leaving him at 4 life points (with me at 24!) but with elspeth on board hitting me for 4 a turn. i resolve snap caster and take him to 2 (drawing a bolt next turn) but i die from the flying token. time is over to play again.
turn3: merfolks 0-2
usually is not a bad MU for me, so i cannot say what happened. i died from Mutavault without being able to draw a sweeper and tectonic edge came only when he had the second mutavault on the board already.
turn4: dredgevine
the guy concedes, then we play for fun and i lose again. turn 2 he resolves a lloleth troll and o turn 3 there were 2 dredgevines, 2 other zombies and that 5/4 guy attacking me. i handled them a couple of turns, then came the third dredge vine.
g2 i can't see a single SB card.
turn5: URW control 1-2
g1 i lose by missing land drops, g2 is a very tight game with him resisting 4 turns at 3 life points to my colonnade attacks, and finally dying.
g3 i concede after a double tectonic edge leaves me with no red. i remand the guy who blocks me from using instant speed spells, but he top deck a thunder maw. i have a path to exile in hand, dispel, and a snap caster, but i have 4 lands and if i decide to path the dragon he'll resolve venser and i would have had to snapcaster-path in my turn without being able to use my dispel on his snare+counterflux. so i concede.
than i dropped.
i was (and still am) very surprised since i really can't say what happened.
seems i had a lot of troubles with lands.
the mono-restoration angel is horrible and not at all game-winning like ajani was (or a dragon could be). it will come out for sure. i just don't know what should i play in replacement.
i am very very sad about how it went.
Ahh i dont know how to say this without sounding mean, so i will just say it, and hope you dont take it the wrong way:
NEVER keep a hand with no red sources. How long have you been playing this deck? You should already know that. Specially when you have 2 red spells.
Restoration angel doesnt seem solid as a singleton, and as it was said before, playing him just for value isnt good at all, you need to play her whenever a an opening presents itself. even if it eats a path, thats one less path for your colonnades, trust me, that matters.
From what i get from your list posted before, your deck seems really weak to the mirror, no wonder you lost 2 games vs uwr. Also, double tectonic is a pretty common way of winning the uwr mirror by cutting red, thats the main reason i play 3 of them.
played in a small lgs fnm like modern event and went 4-0. Deck played fantastically, but did have some tough games.
Interresting, can I see your list? You mentioned Spell Snare and Spell Pierce maindeck, so it sounds like a lower curve than the GPT Prague winner deck.
Probably +1 cryptic, but I'm not sure. There were a lot of games where I didn't see it where I would have liked to.
Supreme Verdict instead of DoJ
and either batterskull or hellkite in the board. I have another hellkite and just actually picked up the batterskull from my winnings yesterday, the LGS does either packs or a gift card equal to the $ of the packs. Haven't decided yet, but will probably go with the batterskull given my aggro heavy meta.
Then if u have two slots on main deck, what u prefer to play in a unknow meta? Vendilion or Blade Splicer? I have a tournament in... 4 hours and idk what to do
Geist is essential to this deck, Resto Angel is great but slower than GoST. I think putting pressure one turn earlier is important. Presently I play 3 Geist and 1 Resto and it's ok.
I have a question for all of you. Could we consider running less Celestial Colonnades. Maybe running a little more burn/removal/counterspells. Maybe it's just me but by the time I can use Celestial I'm always a little behind and Celestial doesn't cut it because usually it means I have to tap out to use it when I'd rather have some other card to help me out. And having it enter the battlefield tapped screws me most of the time. I know it's an auto 4 in UWr builds but I am pretty disappointed about it because the downsides of the card are greater than the advantages for me right now. How has this land been for you, how do you use it?
Another thing I'd like to know is if you often get land flooded when running 26 lands. I often draw 2 or 3 lands in a row and this kills me almost every time. How do you coop with it?
I've not been playing the deck for very long (1 month) and I have a pretty hard time learning to, so maybe it's my fault but I'd like some insight on this.
Geist is essential to this deck, Resto Angel is great but slower than GoST. I think putting pressure one turn earlier is important. Presently I play 3 Geist and 1 Resto and it's ok.
I have a question for all of you. Could we consider running less Celestial Colonnades. Maybe running a little more burn/removal/counterspells. Maybe it's just me but by the time I can use Celestial I'm always a little behind and Celestial doesn't cut it because usually it means I have to tap out to use it when I'd rather have some other card to help me out. And having it enter the battlefield tapped screws me most of the time. I know it's an auto 4 in UWr builds but I am pretty disappointed about it because the downsides of the card are greater than the advantages for me right now. How has this land been for you, how do you use it?
Another thing I'd like to know is if you often get land flooded when running 26 lands. I often draw 2 or 3 lands in a row and this kills me almost every time. How do you coop with it?
I've not been playing the deck for very long (1 month) and I have a pretty hard time learning to, so maybe it's my fault but I'd like some insight on this.
If you intend to win much faster, then 4 Colonnades is a lot. Especially if you adhere to the new meta and play more burn spells, you'll burn them out a lot more and the Colonnade becomes somewhat worse. You generally don't have turn 1 plays which is where you want to play Colonnade, and generally don't have to hit land drops outside of the first 4. So as long as only 1 of your first 4 lands is Colonnade, it's not too bad. Between Bolt, Path, and Spell Snare, you have a lot of plays that only need one mana. So you can get away with the Colonnade even on turn 2. Your deck is quite flexible to allow you to play Colonnade, except on 3 because you have to slam Geist almost always.
26 lands seems like a lot. It's what I play in control decks. I definitely think it's wrong for this deck. I'd go 24-25, you'll have to test and see what works for you. It also depends heavily on where your deck curves out, as playing fewer Cryptic/Resto/Thundermaw means you get away with fewer lands.
I think this is a key point...If Fae turn 1 fetch, shock thoughseizes and then turn 2 bitterblossoms, they essentially start the game at 14 life...having fae double block a geist and letting that 4/4 flyer through means they are at 10...
There is a really solid chance that you can burn them out from there, or let bitterblossom kill them...
Only Grixis or BUG Fae run shocks/fetches. Straight UB has enough in-color duals that they don't need/ don't want to run fetches and shocks, which I think is a good call given the reach most of the meta has with burn spells. I think Grixis Fae lists still look pretty similar to what they were pre-B&R, which was never a bad matchup for UWR.
I don't think so. Lightning Bolt/Helx are both very powerful right now. Thundermaw Hellkite should be suuuuuuper good as well, with an increase in fliers being pretty likely. It also has boardwipe options at 3 mana that are better than anything the other 4 colors have, so I would think red is still king.
UB Faeries GP Record - 22/9/2, 1 Top 64
Also, while I believe the faeries matchup is not great for UWR midrange, I also don't think UB faeries will NOT be able to handle most of current tier 1 modern and will be in the realm of bogles as an annoying deck to deal with, but not top tier...
Ignore them. Thanks for the input man I really appreciate it, its welcome to hear. I think its hard to judge, b/c although Electolyze may be bad against Fae it seems pretty good against a lot of other stuff that is pretty popular in the format, plus there is always the burn to your face route vs Fae, which seems more legit as Fae dealing themselves 6-8 over the course of the game isnt so far fetched. I'm running lots of hate that can hit BB in the side, 2 clestial purge, 2 Explosives, 1 disenchant. From what your saying BB is just a gigantic threat that needs to be dealt with. Its almost in a way like cranial plating for affinity, but more resilient.
Regarding Geist I think its worth keeping in. It does a massive amount of work vs so much of the format, and can easily be boarded out for a more control route.
UWRMiraclesRWU
Modern
UWRControlRWU
Standard
Ummm no...
Trade Thread
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
If you really fear Bitterblossom, then Celestial Purge is probably better off the board than Spell Snare is (since you can rip it off the top).
I agree on the cryptics. Getting into a CC war agaisnt faeries is not really where i want to be at, to be honest.
And seriously guys, by this time, everybody should understand that spell snare is a maindeck card, not a SB one.
4x Remand
3x Mana Leak
Now I'm thinking about running:
3x Remand
2x Mana Leak
2x Spell Snare
Although I might start siding them out against Pod, but I need more practice against that deck.
vs Rock
G1 bolt/helix/path his finks out of the way of geist. Tech edge keeping him at 4 lands off game winners. Geist + collonade did the rest.
G2 similar to game one but with more counter backup. Pithing needle turning off Garruk helped tremendously.
2-0
vs Goblins
G1 took massive amounts of burn to the face but stabilized around 5 life with plenty of counter protection. Geist for the win.
G2 total red deck blow-out. Miss played by not playing around bloodmoon by fetching for shocks instead of basics. GG
G3 Torpor orb shutting of some of his deck slowed his pace. Burn + Geist win.
2-1
vs Affinity
G1 over before it even started. Spell snare + peirce keeping him off plating for the game. His only clock was etched. Easily won the race with Geist.
G2 even more of a blowout with sideboard. 2 for 1 with electrolyze + thundermaw was a killer.
2-0
vs Meliera Pod
G1 he never got pod up and running as path did a good job at keeping from going off. Stabilized at 2 life with snap + cryptic. Geist again for the win.
G2 Drew into lots of burn but no paths, fairly quick game after he landed Sigarda.
G3 another close game, much more of a typical tempo match with pithing needle shutting off pod. Burn + Geist win.
2-1
overall a great day. Pod was by far the hardest match as all the games were really close. They just have so many major threats to land each turn + Gavony Township doing soo much work for them.
Geist was absolutely key, although in some matchups where I was playing the control role, i.e. affinity and goblins I would side out 2-3 Geist in favor of sweepers and specific hate. Remand also came out a bunch, particularly against decks with a really low curve. Remand is a timewalk against Rock, but barely does anything vs Goblins.
Also as a side note, this was the first time I was playing with fetches as I just got 4 tarns. Holy cow! Its like my deck doubled in its power just from 4 cards. Awesome.
UWRMiraclesRWU
Modern
UWRControlRWU
Standard
Ummm no...
Trade Thread
Interresting, can I see your list? You mentioned Spell Snare and Spell Pierce maindeck, so it sounds like a lower curve than the GPT Prague winner deck.
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
Ahh i dont know how to say this without sounding mean, so i will just say it, and hope you dont take it the wrong way:
NEVER keep a hand with no red sources. How long have you been playing this deck? You should already know that. Specially when you have 2 red spells.
Restoration angel doesnt seem solid as a singleton, and as it was said before, playing him just for value isnt good at all, you need to play her whenever a an opening presents itself. even if it eats a path, thats one less path for your colonnades, trust me, that matters.
From what i get from your list posted before, your deck seems really weak to the mirror, no wonder you lost 2 games vs uwr. Also, double tectonic is a pretty common way of winning the uwr mirror by cutting red, thats the main reason i play 3 of them.
Here is my list.
4 path to exile
4 lightning bolt
3 remand
3 mana leak
3 lightning helix
3 electrolyze
2 spell pierce
2 cryptic command
1 spell snare
11 Creatures
4 geist of saint traft
4 snapcaster mage
2 restoration angel
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
4 Scalding Tarn
4 celestial colonnade
3 steam vents
2 Tectonic Edge
3 hallowed fountain
1 sulfur falls
1 sacred foundry
1 plains
1 mountain
1 island
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 clifftop retreat
2 celestial purge
2 engineered explosives
2 counterflux
2 disenchant
1 molten rain
1 Rest In Peace
1 torpor orb
1 pithing needle
1 timely reinforcements
1 day of judgment
1 Stony Silence
Changes that I'll eventually make are:
Probably +1 cryptic, but I'm not sure. There were a lot of games where I didn't see it where I would have liked to.
Supreme Verdict instead of DoJ
and either batterskull or hellkite in the board. I have another hellkite and just actually picked up the batterskull from my winnings yesterday, the LGS does either packs or a gift card equal to the $ of the packs. Haven't decided yet, but will probably go with the batterskull given my aggro heavy meta.
UWRMiraclesRWU
Modern
UWRControlRWU
Standard
Ummm no...
Trade Thread
Clique. Every. Single. Time.
I have a question for all of you. Could we consider running less Celestial Colonnades. Maybe running a little more burn/removal/counterspells. Maybe it's just me but by the time I can use Celestial I'm always a little behind and Celestial doesn't cut it because usually it means I have to tap out to use it when I'd rather have some other card to help me out. And having it enter the battlefield tapped screws me most of the time. I know it's an auto 4 in UWr builds but I am pretty disappointed about it because the downsides of the card are greater than the advantages for me right now. How has this land been for you, how do you use it?
Another thing I'd like to know is if you often get land flooded when running 26 lands. I often draw 2 or 3 lands in a row and this kills me almost every time. How do you coop with it?
I've not been playing the deck for very long (1 month) and I have a pretty hard time learning to, so maybe it's my fault but I'd like some insight on this.
If you intend to win much faster, then 4 Colonnades is a lot. Especially if you adhere to the new meta and play more burn spells, you'll burn them out a lot more and the Colonnade becomes somewhat worse. You generally don't have turn 1 plays which is where you want to play Colonnade, and generally don't have to hit land drops outside of the first 4. So as long as only 1 of your first 4 lands is Colonnade, it's not too bad. Between Bolt, Path, and Spell Snare, you have a lot of plays that only need one mana. So you can get away with the Colonnade even on turn 2. Your deck is quite flexible to allow you to play Colonnade, except on 3 because you have to slam Geist almost always.
26 lands seems like a lot. It's what I play in control decks. I definitely think it's wrong for this deck. I'd go 24-25, you'll have to test and see what works for you. It also depends heavily on where your deck curves out, as playing fewer Cryptic/Resto/Thundermaw means you get away with fewer lands.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer