And it has been wonderful. Also helps against Tron since I turn into a straight up Burn deck in that situation (and to a lesser extent Scapeshift)
I'm currently on 1 more Lightning Helix and 1 less Electrolyze since gaining 3 life matters in so many match-ups and so many situations that I often find myself going "I'm either going to see a(nother) Helix soon or I'm probably gonna lose this one" in my head.
Helix saved my bacon against a burn deck last week. I also am mainboarding Batterskull over Keranos right now. Helix also saved me against a Deadguy Ale deck in the finals.
And it has been wonderful. Also helps against Tron since I turn into a straight up Burn deck in that situation (and to a lesser extent Scapeshift)
I'm currently on 1 more Lightning Helix and 1 less Electrolyze since gaining 3 life matters in so many match-ups and so many situations that I often find myself going "I'm either going to see a(nother) Helix soon or I'm probably gonna lose this one" in my head.
Helix saved my bacon against a burn deck last week. I also am mainboarding Batterskull over Keranos right now. Helix also saved me against a Deadguy Ale deck in the finals.
Interesting, I didn't even know Deadguy Ale was really "a thing" in Modern (which is why I love this format so much, btw., it's still so wide open).
How do you (and of course, everyone else in this thread) see the Jeskai Ascendancy match-up ? I currently made some very painful cuts in my sideboard to run 2 Annuls (at least they're also decent against Affinity) and I "naturally" run 2 Wear // Tear anyway, so I see myself favored post board - am I right in that assessment ?
I think we are one of the few decks that are positioned well against Jeskai Combo (the others being Burn and Twin). Spell Snare is a house, as it catches their scariest card (Caryatid). Negate and Counterflux are great obviously (wait until they wish for the Blood (I think, could be wrong)). Bolt the birds and the Heirarchs, don't tap out. I picked up two Ethersworn Canonist the other day. If Jeskai Combo starts showing up in my meta I will bring both of those into my SB.
Is it not more "burn" than control based? I am confused with the name, it runs piles of burn cards and no creatures to deal damage with.
I've had success playing the average version as a heavy control deck. Burn their first creature, burn their second creature, use other creature removal on whatever else didn't get removed, counter stuff along the way, draw a bunch of cards, eventually get Celestial Colonnade with Cryptic Command back-up and smack them 4 damage at a time. (Yup, you'll get a lot of lands in play in most of your wins--at least 10 lands.)
...Ideally, that's how things should work out.
Sometimes, you burn their head instead of their stuff, mainly because they have nothing worth burning off (most combo decks, Tron, the mirror).
Great, now I've got to try that deck. It reminds me a lot of my 20-land UWR counterburn deck I posted in the KTK in Modern thread. I'll be glad if Cruise/Dig enable low-land midrange/control strategies.
Gosh, I'm praying it has enough burn to have an outside shot of dealing with combo in Game 1, though.
I had some more time to think about the deck, and alchemy does have things going for it. It's cheaper than steam augury, thought flare, careful consideration, and mystical teachings. And it also helps you not flood out with the flashback.
I wonder if you could play thirst for knowledge instead and main deck some disruptive artifacts. I think one of the problems with these cruise decks is flooding, and thirst let's you make use of extra lands without playing bad cards like alchemy. At least in legacy you get to brainstorm away extra lands. Is thirst a good way to mitigate flood? But then playing artifacts weakens snapcaster and pyromancer. I'm not sure there are that many good ones you can main deck. And it opens you up to people's affinity hate cards. But it's an interesting take on a treasure cruise deck.
It is hilarious against Emrakul. Yes Annihilator still triggers, but assuming you have bolted the Tron player a couple times that would be game. Also, from what I can tell, this covers all of the Valakut triggers on Scapeshift, does it not?
'The next time a source of your choice would deal damage to you this turn'. So it isn't just one trigger, it would be each trigger, since it is all done during one turn. So if you play it in response to the first trigger, the Scapeshift player has to stop the triggers basically right?
I had some more time to think about the deck, and alchemy does have things going for it. It's cheaper than steam augury, thought flare, careful consideration, and mystical teachings. And it also helps you not flood out with the flashback.
I wonder if you could play thirst for knowledge instead and main deck some disruptive artifacts. I think one of the problems with these cruise decks is flooding, and thirst let's you make use of extra lands without playing bad cards like alchemy. At least in legacy you get to brainstorm away extra lands. Is thirst a good way to mitigate flood? But then playing artifacts weakens snapcaster and pyromancer. I'm not sure there are that many good ones you can main deck. And it opens you up to people's affinity hate cards. But it's an interesting take on a treasure cruise deck.
I had some more time to think about the deck, and alchemy does have things going for it. It's cheaper than steam augury, thought flare, careful consideration, and mystical teachings. And it also helps you not flood out with the flashback.
I wonder if you could play thirst for knowledge instead and main deck some disruptive artifacts. I think one of the problems with these cruise decks is flooding, and thirst let's you make use of extra lands without playing bad cards like alchemy. At least in legacy you get to brainstorm away extra lands. Is thirst a good way to mitigate flood? But then playing artifacts weakens snapcaster and pyromancer. I'm not sure there are that many good ones you can main deck. And it opens you up to people's affinity hate cards. But it's an interesting take on a treasure cruise deck.
To be fair, Alchemy puts 1 more card in the graveyard, digs 1 card deeper, and has a nonzero chance of being flashed back by its own Flashback cost.
But T4K does let you ditch all those dead Game 1 PtE's...hmmmmm...
I think Alchemy/T4K is necessary in a 4 Cruise, 4 Tiago deck with 1-ofs and 2-ofs in the sideboard. The increased Delve matters a lot when I effectively play 6 Delve cards (assuming Tiago counts as half a Delve card because he pickily wants counterspells/removal/Cruise in some matchups). And milling sideboard cards with Thought Scour is feel-bad time.
It is hilarious against Emrakul. Yes Annihilator still triggers, but assuming you have bolted the Tron player a couple times that would be game. Also, from what I can tell, this covers all of the Valakut triggers on Scapeshift, does it not?
'The next time a source of your choice would deal damage to you this turn'. So it isn't just one trigger, it would be each trigger, since it is all done during one turn. So if you play it in response to the first trigger, the Scapeshift player has to stop the triggers basically right?
I could be mistaken on that one.
But it is also good against Grapeshot...hmm...
Deflecting Palm will only stop one Valakut trigger or one Grapeshot copy. If it stopped them all then it would probably see a lot more play than it does now. As for Emrakul, there is the surprise factor but the Tron player could play around it by leaving up Oblivion Stone. Parallectric Feedback or Essence Backlash on the other hand, is much harder to interact with if you are looking for that kind of effect.
I had some more time to think about the deck, and alchemy does have things going for it. It's cheaper than steam augury, thought flare, careful consideration, and mystical teachings. And it also helps you not flood out with the flashback.
I wonder if you could play thirst for knowledge instead and main deck some disruptive artifacts. I think one of the problems with these cruise decks is flooding, and thirst let's you make use of extra lands without playing bad cards like alchemy. At least in legacy you get to brainstorm away extra lands. Is thirst a good way to mitigate flood? But then playing artifacts weakens snapcaster and pyromancer. I'm not sure there are that many good ones you can main deck. And it opens you up to people's affinity hate cards. But it's an interesting take on a treasure cruise deck.
To be fair, Alchemy puts 1 more card in the graveyard, digs 1 card deeper, and has a nonzero chance of being flashed back by its own Flashback cost.
But T4K does let you ditch all those dead Game 1 PtE's...hmmmmm...
I think Alchemy/T4K is necessary in a 4 Cruise, 4 Tiago deck with 1-ofs and 2-ofs in the sideboard. The increased Delve matters a lot when I effectively play 6 Delve cards (assuming Tiago counts as half a Delve card because he pickily wants counterspells/removal/Cruise in some matchups). And milling sideboard cards with Thought Scour is feel-bad time.
I'm currently firmly on the Dig Through Time plan, even in a build with 2 main deck Sphinx's Revelation (which makes drawing additional lands always at least ok-ish). Instant speed and digging for specific answers (specially counters to something that really shouldn't resolve) just won out over mana efficiency and raw card draw for me, at least for the time being.
But then again, I'm currently only running 2 copies of Dig Through Time alongside 4 Snapcaster Mages in a very ordinary Jeskai list without any dedicated self-milling. Things might, of course, be totally different if you go for a self-milling "Cruise Control" build.
Yeah, I'm on the 2 Dig plan with my stock enough UWR Control list. I like being able to cast it sooner with less Delve without opening myself up. Is being on 3 Think Twice and 3 Tiago and going down to 1 Sphinx's Rev (with 1 Lightning Helix) dicey, though?
My points were about the Caleb Durward 4 Cruise 4 Tiago brew, which he 3-1'd a Daily with (a modified build since rickster_ posted it):
Last week I tried DTT and I like it, but I am wondering if Treasure Cruise could be just as good. With a deck full of answers, is it better to dig through 7 for 2 specific cards? In a deck like Twin I believe it is.
Is that the case in this one? Or do we just want raw cards?
In my opinion, you should only play 2 delve spells in the deck if you are running 3-4x Snapcaster Mage, otherwise the cards would contradict each other. I would inclined to play Dig Through Time rather than Treasure Cruise in Jeskai Control. I still believe maintaining the draw go principle of the deck is the key of control, sure you could delve and cast Treasure Cruise on your turn for more draws, but a simple Remand from your opponent will set you back and to force the counter spell war at your turn. Playing proactively in a control deck like this is important.
In my opinion, you should only play 2 delve spells in the deck if you are running 3-4x Snapcaster Mage, otherwise the cards would contradict each other.
Have you played 4 DTT and 4 snapcaster together? Do you speak from experience or theory?
From experience. Decks like Jeskai Control doesn't utilize cantrip cards like Gitaxian Probe and Serum Visions. There will be less cards to delve away in the graveyard, and mostly targeting fetch lands. Snapcaster Mage will have less value if you insist of delving away cards like Lightning Bolt, Spell Snare, Path to Exile etc. Yes, it's true that DDT can find the answers to deal with the correct threat but only after 3 turns, thus two copies of them are suffice if Sphinx's Revelation is in the mix.
In my opinion, you should only play 2 delve spells in the deck if you are running 3-4x Snapcaster Mage, otherwise the cards would contradict each other.
Have you played 4 DTT and 4 snapcaster together? Do you speak from experience or theory?
I tried running a full set of delve spells and 4 snaps without any delve enablers and it was miserable. When it was 4 cruise I rarely, if ever, had enough mana to deploy the spells that I was drawing because I had to leave a few spells in the yard for the snaps to bring back. And when I tried the same thing with 4 digs instead I always wished that they were sphinx's revelation instead due to the mana cost and not being able to delve everything away.
However once I cut down on the snaps and added in 1-2 spells to enable the delve it was incredibly easy to make 4 delve spells work. The full delve plus snapcaster plan is completely doable, but it DOES need some support to make it work. If not then one or the other will be significantly weaker and not worth running. However if you're just playing with only 1-2 digs than it's fine to run 4 snapcaster since you'll often be hitting them later or already have a very stocked yard to fuel the delve spells once you're ready to cast them.
My current set up is 4 DTT, 2 snapcaster, 2 enablers and I have yet to have a problem with the delve cost or had to spend so much mana on them to make a revelation strictly better.
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A couple of weeks ago I was playing Jeskai control against Devlver. The delver player had Dig Through Time and wrecked me. He completely out drew me. If I had Dig Through Time instead of Sphinx's Revelation or Think Twice I might have been able to keep up.
There are several considerations that I am contemplating about Treasure Cruise vs Dig Through Time. First is that instant speed > sorcery speed. I would rather cast DDT at the end of their turn even it if I only delve for 4. Casting sorcery speed draw spells seems like a bit of a risk.
I consider Treasure Cruise a bit of a risk because you need to delve 7 to cast if for U. What happens if you draw it early? What happens if you draw it in multiples and early? You have cards cluttering your hand that you need to tap out to cast. Not good. This situation is compounded game 2 and 3 because most decks will board in grave yard hate against Jeskai control to disrupt the Snapcaster Mage. The graveyard hate is now making the sorcery speed card even worse.
Also I consider the interaction between Snapcaster Mage and Dig Through Time better; especially in longer match ups. I can Snapcaster and target DDT at the end of the turn and if I choose to I can pay all of the mana cost if I don't have much of a graveyard left. Then I untap. Just the sequence control wants.
Just dump Revelation, already. It's going to happen so why fight it. The rise of blue tempo decks just makes running the card even more ludicrous. I love it in Esper, but that deck has instant-speed Mind Rots and a ridiculous draw engine.
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Helix saved my bacon against a burn deck last week. I also am mainboarding Batterskull over Keranos right now. Helix also saved me against a Deadguy Ale deck in the finals.
I think we are one of the few decks that are positioned well against Jeskai Combo (the others being Burn and Twin). Spell Snare is a house, as it catches their scariest card (Caryatid). Negate and Counterflux are great obviously (wait until they wish for the Blood (I think, could be wrong)). Bolt the birds and the Heirarchs, don't tap out. I picked up two Ethersworn Canonist the other day. If Jeskai Combo starts showing up in my meta I will bring both of those into my SB.
I've had success playing the average version as a heavy control deck. Burn their first creature, burn their second creature, use other creature removal on whatever else didn't get removed, counter stuff along the way, draw a bunch of cards, eventually get Celestial Colonnade with Cryptic Command back-up and smack them 4 damage at a time. (Yup, you'll get a lot of lands in play in most of your wins--at least 10 lands.)
...Ideally, that's how things should work out.
Sometimes, you burn their head instead of their stuff, mainly because they have nothing worth burning off (most combo decks, Tron, the mirror).
He's streaming as I post this
http://www.twitch.tv/calebdmtg
Great, now I've got to try that deck. It reminds me a lot of my 20-land UWR counterburn deck I posted in the KTK in Modern thread. I'll be glad if Cruise/Dig enable low-land midrange/control strategies.
Gosh, I'm praying it has enough burn to have an outside shot of dealing with combo in Game 1, though.
I also don't like 2 basic mountains. I'd rather play 2 basic plains just to have a better chance to beat blood moon.
I wonder if you could play thirst for knowledge instead and main deck some disruptive artifacts. I think one of the problems with these cruise decks is flooding, and thirst let's you make use of extra lands without playing bad cards like alchemy. At least in legacy you get to brainstorm away extra lands. Is thirst a good way to mitigate flood? But then playing artifacts weakens snapcaster and pyromancer. I'm not sure there are that many good ones you can main deck. And it opens you up to people's affinity hate cards. But it's an interesting take on a treasure cruise deck.
It is hilarious against Emrakul. Yes Annihilator still triggers, but assuming you have bolted the Tron player a couple times that would be game. Also, from what I can tell, this covers all of the Valakut triggers on Scapeshift, does it not?
'The next time a source of your choice would deal damage to you this turn'. So it isn't just one trigger, it would be each trigger, since it is all done during one turn. So if you play it in response to the first trigger, the Scapeshift player has to stop the triggers basically right?
I could be mistaken on that one.
But it is also good against Grapeshot...hmm...
You could run Thirst for Knowledge with no artifacts and it would still beat Forbidden Alchemy. It's like Brainstorm v. Ponder.
To be fair, Alchemy puts 1 more card in the graveyard, digs 1 card deeper, and has a nonzero chance of being flashed back by its own Flashback cost.
But T4K does let you ditch all those dead Game 1 PtE's...hmmmmm...
I think Alchemy/T4K is necessary in a 4 Cruise, 4 Tiago deck with 1-ofs and 2-ofs in the sideboard. The increased Delve matters a lot when I effectively play 6 Delve cards (assuming Tiago counts as half a Delve card because he pickily wants counterspells/removal/Cruise in some matchups). And milling sideboard cards with Thought Scour is feel-bad time.
Deflecting Palm will only stop one Valakut trigger or one Grapeshot copy. If it stopped them all then it would probably see a lot more play than it does now. As for Emrakul, there is the surprise factor but the Tron player could play around it by leaving up Oblivion Stone. Parallectric Feedback or Essence Backlash on the other hand, is much harder to interact with if you are looking for that kind of effect.
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Yeah, I'm on the 2 Dig plan with my stock enough UWR Control list. I like being able to cast it sooner with less Delve without opening myself up. Is being on 3 Think Twice and 3 Tiago and going down to 1 Sphinx's Rev (with 1 Lightning Helix) dicey, though?
My points were about the Caleb Durward 4 Cruise 4 Tiago brew, which he 3-1'd a Daily with (a modified build since rickster_ posted it):
3 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
3 Island
2 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Young Pyromancer
Spells
1 Batterskull
1 Darkblast
3 Electrolyze
3 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Path to Exile
4 Serum Visions
2 Spell Snare
2 Terminate
4 Treasure Cruise
1 Celestial Purge
3 Dispel
2 Dragon's Claw
3 Negate
4 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Tectonic Edge
I'm still not convinced that throwing Game 1 away against Scapeshift, Ad Nauseam, and UR Storm is the right call, though.
Is that the case in this one? Or do we just want raw cards?
Have you played 4 DTT and 4 snapcaster together? Do you speak from experience or theory?
I tried running a full set of delve spells and 4 snaps without any delve enablers and it was miserable. When it was 4 cruise I rarely, if ever, had enough mana to deploy the spells that I was drawing because I had to leave a few spells in the yard for the snaps to bring back. And when I tried the same thing with 4 digs instead I always wished that they were sphinx's revelation instead due to the mana cost and not being able to delve everything away.
However once I cut down on the snaps and added in 1-2 spells to enable the delve it was incredibly easy to make 4 delve spells work. The full delve plus snapcaster plan is completely doable, but it DOES need some support to make it work. If not then one or the other will be significantly weaker and not worth running. However if you're just playing with only 1-2 digs than it's fine to run 4 snapcaster since you'll often be hitting them later or already have a very stocked yard to fuel the delve spells once you're ready to cast them.
My current set up is 4 DTT, 2 snapcaster, 2 enablers and I have yet to have a problem with the delve cost or had to spend so much mana on them to make a revelation strictly better.
There are several considerations that I am contemplating about Treasure Cruise vs Dig Through Time. First is that instant speed > sorcery speed. I would rather cast DDT at the end of their turn even it if I only delve for 4. Casting sorcery speed draw spells seems like a bit of a risk.
I consider Treasure Cruise a bit of a risk because you need to delve 7 to cast if for U. What happens if you draw it early? What happens if you draw it in multiples and early? You have cards cluttering your hand that you need to tap out to cast. Not good. This situation is compounded game 2 and 3 because most decks will board in grave yard hate against Jeskai control to disrupt the Snapcaster Mage. The graveyard hate is now making the sorcery speed card even worse.
Also I consider the interaction between Snapcaster Mage and Dig Through Time better; especially in longer match ups. I can Snapcaster and target DDT at the end of the turn and if I choose to I can pay all of the mana cost if I don't have much of a graveyard left. Then I untap. Just the sequence control wants.
I plan on running 2 x Dig Through Time. I will be replacing 1 if not both Sphinx's Revelation.