Interesting, thanks for the upload. Looks like he's trying out a second CtM in the board?
BTW, the GW Land-Death deck is tough. I played it in the DE I 3-1'd, and the games were very tense. That deck is very well suited to completely destroy us, and I was very lucky to get there.
The deck is def interesting, I played in the ptq, and caught a few of his(wafo's) replays after the event, thank you rickster for finding and posting those vids!
Certainly its pure control, I will give it that. Esper charm+Izzet charm just do work. So people saying control isn't possible in modern just haven't looked/tried hard enough.
Why no wurmcoil? If your going to durdle from one turn to the next atleast drop a finisher. If you dont drop a game winning threat, tron will. This deck is bad
Are you trolling or dumb? Did you even look at the decklist? Is there a way to block individual people on this forum? Because I need to. Can't have my IQ dropping.
Mana Leak is terrible in actual control decks. It's nice in tempo decks that seek to end the game quickly. In actual control decks, you get to turn ten- which you often do- and Mana Leak is now a dead card in hand.
There's some chance that Mana Leak is worse than Remand in the early turns, but if there is a difference, it's a marginal one at best.
Now that Izzet Charm serves as a Mana Leak in many places, you definitely have some chance of overloading on the effect.
At least Remand does something when you both have ten mana. It actually has a chance of keeping something off the board for a turn in the lategame, because doubling the cost of a spell (which is what Remand does, essentially) does scale.
I've been very unimpressed by Path in the modern format in general. It has major issues with how it plays in the early game- you can't really kill mana dorks, and killing (or not killing) a Dark Confidant on turn two is lose/lose. Except for the corner case of Wurmcoil, it's worse than Terminate / Dismember. I wouldn't add Path to the deck. If more creature kill was necessary (and I truly doubt it is, considering the decklist) than Terminate is certainly a better option.
You're worried about a set of cards that aren't really a large part of the meta. Sure, Tarmogoyf is a major player and Angel sees some play, but I don't think you should concern yourself with the Colonnade mirror and Mistbind. It's impossible to meta against every possible deck. I imagine that the current ways to deal with a resolved threat / just countering the threat are sufficient. You don't really need many ways to kill a creature to find one of them in this deck, due to your card draw. Two ways to deal with these creatures once they're resolved might be enough, especially with Snapcaster.
Are you trolling or dumb? Did you even look at the decklist? Is there a way to block individual people on this forum? Because I need to. Can't have my IQ dropping.
One of the ways is to click on their profile and add them to your ignore list. Sadly if someone quotes the blocked person it still shows their text.
I've been very unimpressed by Path in the modern format in general. It has major issues with how it plays in the early game- you can't really kill mana dorks, and killing (or not killing) a Dark Confidant on turn two is lose/lose. Except for the corner case of Wurmcoil, it's worse than Terminate / Dismember. I wouldn't add Path to the deck. If more creature kill was necessary (and I truly doubt it is, considering the decklist) than Terminate is certainly a better option.
Yeah it's really bad vs jund. It ramps them and fixes their mana. It's also not that great against pod decks for the same reasons as jund, and you don't need path to stop them from comboing off, all of the removal spells kill kiki and melira.
Like the deck. I think that most of the suggestions made by people here would make the deck worse.
Are you trolling or dumb? Did you even look at the decklist? Is there a way to block individual people on this forum? Because I need to. Can't have my IQ dropping.
I disagree completely!
Mana Leak is terrible in actual control decks. It's nice in tempo decks that seek to end the game quickly. In actual control decks, you get to turn ten- which you often do- and Mana Leak is now a dead card in hand.
There's some chance that Mana Leak is worse than Remand in the early turns, but if there is a difference, it's a marginal one at best.
Now that Izzet Charm serves as a Mana Leak in many places, you definitely have some chance of overloading on the effect.
At least Remand does something when you both have ten mana. It actually has a chance of keeping something off the board for a turn in the lategame, because doubling the cost of a spell (which is what Remand does, essentially) does scale.
I've been very unimpressed by Path in the modern format in general. It has major issues with how it plays in the early game- you can't really kill mana dorks, and killing (or not killing) a Dark Confidant on turn two is lose/lose. Except for the corner case of Wurmcoil, it's worse than Terminate / Dismember. I wouldn't add Path to the deck. If more creature kill was necessary (and I truly doubt it is, considering the decklist) than Terminate is certainly a better option.
You're worried about a set of cards that aren't really a large part of the meta. Sure, Tarmogoyf is a major player and Angel sees some play, but I don't think you should concern yourself with the Colonnade mirror and Mistbind. It's impossible to meta against every possible deck. I imagine that the current ways to deal with a resolved threat / just countering the threat are sufficient. You don't really need many ways to kill a creature to find one of them in this deck, due to your card draw. Two ways to deal with these creatures once they're resolved might be enough, especially with Snapcaster.
I wouldn't say mana leak is bad in control. Sure, it becomes dead after your opponent has 10 lands in play, but at that point you should be doing more powerful things anyway. Mana leaks gets you to the late-game without dying, and I think people would be surprised how often it's relevant even when your opponent has lots of mana in play.
That being said, I think every modern control deck should be playing Izzet charm right now. It's just so much more relevant in the format right now. Ever since I've been playing Izzet charm, I've started counting the times where I would hate if it was simply a mana leak, and it's amazing how often that comes up. And as others have said, it's a much more relevant late-game card than leak is since you can use it as removal, or to trade in useless cards that you've topdecked late-game.
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I have really liked Izzet Charm as well. It's a card that I had as a 1-of in my 5C Mystical Teachings deck and never saw it that much, but now that I see it a lot, I'm very happy with it.
With all that said, I feel as though it's one of the cards I cut in the fair matchups the most, because against most fair decks, it's a bad shock. But it's so good G1 because of it's versatility. Realistically, the Careful Study ability is what puts it over the top, as it ensures it's never a dead card late, when you might not need the shock, and the Spell Pierce option doesn't do anything. Love it.
Round 1 I beat a bad mono white control deck. Countered all his/her relevant spells, and drew my tec edge for his/her emeria. Won with lethal cats.
Beat a bad burn deck round 2, the ones that play more than 8 creatures are so easy. I really think there should be 1 cheap instant speed life gain spell so you can teachings for it. I'm playing 1 helix over the 4th electrolyze.
Round 3 lost to twin.
Round 4 beat affinity without consume the meek in my 75. Electrolyze is a house. His draws weren't very impressive though. I don't even know if he had ravager.
Quote from Kastlet »
I was also considering Threads of Disloyalty, Terminus, Pyroclasm, Lightning Helix, or even Augur of Bolas ( blocks 2 power creatures all day long, draws you an extra card, filters the deck ).
I feel like some sort of lifegain wouldn't hurt, especially since this deck usually wins while at low life.
I was thinking about augur and miracle cards. You draw so many cards on your opponent's which helps to miracle more often. But if you can't miracle them they're so bad. Yeah you can discard them to izzet charm, but you want to be using the other 2 modes on izzet charm in the first 2-5 turns. If someone does well with terminus or temporal mastery i might be inclined to try them.
If you play Augur you have to cut spells to play him. What are you cutting? I think Wall of Omens is probably better if you want a value blocker. But I don't think you want to play many sorcery speed cards.
Helix was pretty good in the tournament I just played. The only issue is that it can be hard to get the mana to work if you want to play it turn 2. Though I'm still trying to figure out land sequencing.
I did like the switch of 1 steam vents to 1 sulfur falls. Don't know if I want to change out a fetch land. I've been keeping starting hands without red sources, and I really need a fetch to bail me out of a marginal keep. I'm fine with fetches not doing anything late game, more cards to bluff with.
I Realy think going heavier White over Black is good and am even considering running a set of Leyline of Sanctity in the Sideboard. Im sorry but the mana in his original list is just dreadful 8 fetch with 2 basics?! You just take soo much damage for a deck that wants to hit 10 lands not to mention just wiffing on fetches! It seems he is tweaking mana still...
5-6 "M10" Lands are awesome all you need is one of 12 Turn 1 Islands then all the rest EtB untaped! My land mix may not be perfect yet however, and I think 2-3 spell slots could change as well (May want +1 Helix, Dismember, and Cryptic).
I really want to try 2-3 Wall of Omens and maybe a Resto Angel. Wall is just so great with all our spot removal and Wafo did use them in some previous version of the deck. Playing wall and helix would be a good meta call if you think there will lots of attackers and burn. I also dont think Thoughtseize is needed especially at the cost of drastically warping our mana. Its obviously just for combo match ups, but we can play one card that just makes them scoop in Slaughter games! It is a bit dubious but still helpful vs Twin/Pod but flat out wins vs Scapeshift and Grapeshot (with pyroclasm for goblins) and can make tron a lot easier hitting Karn or Emrakul. Perhaps Leyline is just as good vs the 2 combo decks and amazing vs discard and burn, again its a meta call.
I did like the switch of 1 steam vents to 1 sulfur falls. Don't know if I want to change out a fetch land. I've been keeping starting hands without red sources, and I really need a fetch to bail me out of a marginal keep. I'm fine with fetches not doing anything late game, more cards to bluff with.
That shouldn't be a relevant reason to keep the fetches in. There has got to be a better way to go with the mana base than to bluff with your remaining 2 fetches or something.
There has got to be a better way to go with the mana base than to bluff with your remaining 2 fetches or something.
Wafo played in the mtgo ptq today going 1-2 drop. He had a vivid creek!
Round 1 he beat a the BR burn deck that plays 14+ creatures. These burn decks that play more than 8 creatures seem really bad. I really think the best burn deck is the one that plays 4 guides and 4 lavamancers. These 2 creatures offer the most value. The other red creatures cost too much or get blocked or killed. And you don't want to play many creatures when people are playing deathrite shaman.
Round 2 he lost to twin with main deck Jace AoT.
His 3rd round loss was to melira pod. Opponent played turn 2 pod on the play. This deck can't beat a resolved birthing pod at least not in game one. Game 2 he lost to multiple finks + township.
PV and Cuneo briefly talked about this deck on the streamers championship coverage. They didn't really like it. PV said it should probably have a path to exile in the main deck. Cuneo hates WSZ, but says he understands this deck needs it to win the game.
So, greedy mana base, needs a Path mb, lifegains spells, clunky win-con and sucks against Tron.
Keep in mind they haven't tested the deck. So the things they said could be incorrect. And the list by Wafo Tapa is no way the 100% correct list either. People in this thread are trying to improve it (for the online meta).
The mana base is greedy but same can said for other decks. Path and life gain could make the deck better. The deck has multiple win cons, Cuneo likes Blue Sun's zenith and that style of deck is just as clunky. Cuneo hasn't played the deck so he has no idea if the RG tron match up is bad. I don't think he's played a single game with izzet charm either outside of draft.
I want to try to get Cuneo to stream this deck, but he's pretty stubborn and I don't think he wants to play with izzet charm or white sun's zenith.
this deck has major problems with the G/W aura deck that has been popping up lately
the matchup is so bad i have basically decided to switch decks because its all over the dailys and 8 man queues
http://www.youtube.com/user/mundanehaiku/videos?view=1
Also I didn't feel like doing commentary or trying to figure out the music copyright laws. So you'll have to make your own audio.
BTW, the GW Land-Death deck is tough. I played it in the DE I 3-1'd, and the games were very tense. That deck is very well suited to completely destroy us, and I was very lucky to get there.
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PV wrote an article about what makes a good deck. It is an informative read.
http://www.channelfireball.com/home/pv/
It makes me want to play more consistent cards.
The GW taxes deck is such an inconsistent deck, it's so bad.
Wafo is also playing marsh flats, sulfur falls and disenchant. And that replay was from 15 hours ago.
Are you trolling or dumb? Did you even look at the decklist? Is there a way to block individual people on this forum? Because I need to. Can't have my IQ dropping.
I disagree completely!
Mana Leak is terrible in actual control decks. It's nice in tempo decks that seek to end the game quickly. In actual control decks, you get to turn ten- which you often do- and Mana Leak is now a dead card in hand.
There's some chance that Mana Leak is worse than Remand in the early turns, but if there is a difference, it's a marginal one at best.
Now that Izzet Charm serves as a Mana Leak in many places, you definitely have some chance of overloading on the effect.
At least Remand does something when you both have ten mana. It actually has a chance of keeping something off the board for a turn in the lategame, because doubling the cost of a spell (which is what Remand does, essentially) does scale.
I would probably add a couple of Paths, or an extra Terminate, for that matter.
I've been very unimpressed by Path in the modern format in general. It has major issues with how it plays in the early game- you can't really kill mana dorks, and killing (or not killing) a Dark Confidant on turn two is lose/lose. Except for the corner case of Wurmcoil, it's worse than Terminate / Dismember. I wouldn't add Path to the deck. If more creature kill was necessary (and I truly doubt it is, considering the decklist) than Terminate is certainly a better option.
You're worried about a set of cards that aren't really a large part of the meta. Sure, Tarmogoyf is a major player and Angel sees some play, but I don't think you should concern yourself with the Colonnade mirror and Mistbind. It's impossible to meta against every possible deck. I imagine that the current ways to deal with a resolved threat / just countering the threat are sufficient. You don't really need many ways to kill a creature to find one of them in this deck, due to your card draw. Two ways to deal with these creatures once they're resolved might be enough, especially with Snapcaster.
One of the ways is to click on their profile and add them to your ignore list. Sadly if someone quotes the blocked person it still shows their text.
Yeah it's really bad vs jund. It ramps them and fixes their mana. It's also not that great against pod decks for the same reasons as jund, and you don't need path to stop them from comboing off, all of the removal spells kill kiki and melira.
I wouldn't say mana leak is bad in control. Sure, it becomes dead after your opponent has 10 lands in play, but at that point you should be doing more powerful things anyway. Mana leaks gets you to the late-game without dying, and I think people would be surprised how often it's relevant even when your opponent has lots of mana in play.
That being said, I think every modern control deck should be playing Izzet charm right now. It's just so much more relevant in the format right now. Ever since I've been playing Izzet charm, I've started counting the times where I would hate if it was simply a mana leak, and it's amazing how often that comes up. And as others have said, it's a much more relevant late-game card than leak is since you can use it as removal, or to trade in useless cards that you've topdecked late-game.
With all that said, I feel as though it's one of the cards I cut in the fair matchups the most, because against most fair decks, it's a bad shock. But it's so good G1 because of it's versatility. Realistically, the Careful Study ability is what puts it over the top, as it ensures it's never a dead card late, when you might not need the shock, and the Spell Pierce option doesn't do anything. Love it.
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http://www.gatherling.com/eventreport.php?event=Where%20Angels%20Fear%20To%20Tread%201.38
Round 1 I beat a bad mono white control deck. Countered all his/her relevant spells, and drew my tec edge for his/her emeria. Won with lethal cats.
Beat a bad burn deck round 2, the ones that play more than 8 creatures are so easy. I really think there should be 1 cheap instant speed life gain spell so you can teachings for it. I'm playing 1 helix over the 4th electrolyze.
Round 3 lost to twin.
Round 4 beat affinity without consume the meek in my 75. Electrolyze is a house. His draws weren't very impressive though. I don't even know if he had ravager.
I was thinking about augur and miracle cards. You draw so many cards on your opponent's which helps to miracle more often. But if you can't miracle them they're so bad. Yeah you can discard them to izzet charm, but you want to be using the other 2 modes on izzet charm in the first 2-5 turns. If someone does well with terminus or temporal mastery i might be inclined to try them.
If you play Augur you have to cut spells to play him. What are you cutting? I think Wall of Omens is probably better if you want a value blocker. But I don't think you want to play many sorcery speed cards.
I did like the switch of 1 steam vents to 1 sulfur falls. Don't know if I want to change out a fetch land. I've been keeping starting hands without red sources, and I really need a fetch to bail me out of a marginal keep. I'm fine with fetches not doing anything late game, more cards to bluff with.
5-6 "M10" Lands are awesome all you need is one of 12 Turn 1 Islands then all the rest EtB untaped! My land mix may not be perfect yet however, and I think 2-3 spell slots could change as well (May want +1 Helix, Dismember, and Cryptic).
3 Arid Mesa
1 Blood Crypt
2 Celestial Colonnade
2 Drowned Catacomb
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Mystic Gate
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Watery Grave
26 Land
1 Counterflux
3 Cryptic Command
4 Electrolyze
3 Esper Charm
3 Izzet Charm
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Lightning Helix
2 Mystical Teachings
2 Path to Exile
4 Remand
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Volcanic Fallout
1 White Sun's Zenith
1 Celestial Purge
1 Hide // Seek
1 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroclasm
3 Slaughter Games
2 Spellskite
2 Stony Silence
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Timely Reinforcements
I really want to try 2-3 Wall of Omens and maybe a Resto Angel. Wall is just so great with all our spot removal and Wafo did use them in some previous version of the deck. Playing wall and helix would be a good meta call if you think there will lots of attackers and burn. I also dont think Thoughtseize is needed especially at the cost of drastically warping our mana. Its obviously just for combo match ups, but we can play one card that just makes them scoop in Slaughter games! It is a bit dubious but still helpful vs Twin/Pod but flat out wins vs Scapeshift and Grapeshot (with pyroclasm for goblins) and can make tron a lot easier hitting Karn or Emrakul. Perhaps Leyline is just as good vs the 2 combo decks and amazing vs discard and burn, again its a meta call.
Yeah, this still gets me sometimes as well, tricky when your fetches basically all get the same lands, with some slight differences.
That shouldn't be a relevant reason to keep the fetches in. There has got to be a better way to go with the mana base than to bluff with your remaining 2 fetches or something.
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Wafo played in the mtgo ptq today going 1-2 drop. He had a vivid creek!
Round 1 he beat a the BR burn deck that plays 14+ creatures. These burn decks that play more than 8 creatures seem really bad. I really think the best burn deck is the one that plays 4 guides and 4 lavamancers. These 2 creatures offer the most value. The other red creatures cost too much or get blocked or killed. And you don't want to play many creatures when people are playing deathrite shaman.
Round 2 he lost to twin with main deck Jace AoT.
His 3rd round loss was to melira pod. Opponent played turn 2 pod on the play. This deck can't beat a resolved birthing pod at least not in game one. Game 2 he lost to multiple finks + township.
PV and Cuneo briefly talked about this deck on the streamers championship coverage. They didn't really like it. PV said it should probably have a path to exile in the main deck. Cuneo hates WSZ, but says he understands this deck needs it to win the game.
1:45:00- 1:48:48
http://www.twitch.tv/foundomega/b/352599510
Keep in mind they haven't tested the deck. So the things they said could be incorrect. And the list by Wafo Tapa is no way the 100% correct list either. People in this thread are trying to improve it (for the online meta).
The mana base is greedy but same can said for other decks. Path and life gain could make the deck better. The deck has multiple win cons, Cuneo likes Blue Sun's zenith and that style of deck is just as clunky. Cuneo hasn't played the deck so he has no idea if the RG tron match up is bad. I don't think he's played a single game with izzet charm either outside of draft.
I want to try to get Cuneo to stream this deck, but he's pretty stubborn and I don't think he wants to play with izzet charm or white sun's zenith.
the matchup is so bad i have basically decided to switch decks because its all over the dailys and 8 man queues
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2 people top 8'd with it and another in the top 16 of the latest mtgo ptq
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/4776138
Yeah looks like this control deck isn't that good of a choice either.
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