I was the guy playing the deck, if you guys have any questions. I faced the UWR geist deck twice, and found the matchup extremely favourable actually. I was on the draw all 4 games and still felt like I had my opponent on the backfoot the entire time. Faced affinity twice, which is obviously heavily in our favour. Also faced jund twice, winning in 3 both matches. Matchup depends heavily on them getting a few cards (finks, inquisition).
Also faced a few durdly do-nothing decks, all of which seemed heavily in my favour as well. Only match loss was against twin, the deck just seems to have so much redundancy. In the second game against him I killed two sets worth of combo, and he just had the third to win. Was pretty brutal.
I really liked the maindeck, it seems that you have so many cards that (will on average at least) do 4 damage (Charm, Vexing Devil, Goblin Guide, Lavamancer) that it's just extremely easy to burn people out. I might make a few changes to the sideboard, maybe having a couple extra cards for the jund matchup. The Back to Natures were for the enchantment deck, which I knew at least one person would be playing and is normally our worst matchup.
Revel, how did you like leaving Skullcrack in the board? When/if you cast Skullcrack post-board, did you tend to hold it up and throw other burn at EOT or did you slam down your 2-drop creatures first?
Also, how was Ash Zealot? I've been testing against Jund and Pod lately, and even Hellspark Elemental is starting to look disgustingly bad against those decks (given the hands they keep, it deals 3 damage at best the majority of the time). I haven't tested against UWR Midrange yet, though, and I suspect Ash Zealot is significantly better against them.
Revel, how did you like leaving Skullcrack in the board? When/if you cast Skullcrack post-board, did you tend to hold it up and throw other burn at EOT or did you slam down your 2-drop creatures first?
Skullcrack was fine in the board, I didn't actually ever get to cast it in response to any lifegain unfortunately. I did get to hold it up against jund twice during the day, but they didn't have the finks anyways. If I was worried that my opponent might have a finks I would hold up skullcrack, but I don't think it's worth it to leave up skullcrack and miss playing a two drop to counter the lifegain from lightning helix. It was essentially a Lava Spike with an upside most of the time.
Ash Zealot was awesome, it's everything you want and more against the UWR decks, it punishes snapcaster while also killing all of their creatures outside of Resto Angel in combat. Against jund it is obviously not as good, but I also killed a number of goyfs by searing blaze or lightning bolt after first strike. All in all I was really happy with her.
I faced a UWR control deck in the finals, outside of helix they don't really have anything you actually care a whole lot about. Even if they kill all of your creatures, you will still usually get at least 4 or so damage in and then you can just burn them out from there.
Haste is a huge part of why Zealot is amazing, sure they can kill her, but then they aren't killing your 1 drops. And if they don't have removal she is still relevant later on in the game, something that cannot be said about other creatures.
I liked RW over BR mostly because I saw boros charm and helix complimenting mono-r more than bump/shaman. Charm being 4 damage is huge, and helix allows you to play extremely greedy vs other faster decks (zoo, affinity, other burn decks, etc).
I used the indestructibilty on Charm once, to try to keep my lavamancer around against jund. He had another removal spell, but if it had worked it wouldve been excellent. Mostly its just a really efficient burn spell.
I liked the maindeck for the most part, searing blaze is an incredible card, but one that you rarely if ever want to draw in multiples. I'm happy with running 3. I definitely would keep the zealots around.
PTE are good against a fair number of decks, most notably against twin. It is also excellent against afinity, and gives you a reasonable answer against finks. It's not an incredibly exciting card, but it's very effective.
Relic only got sided in once, but I felt that I needed at least a couple of cards to fight any sort of reanimator/eggs deck. Once again not very exciting, but neccessary to keep your sideboard balanced.
Is this deck even worth trying without the fetchlands/duals?
It looks like a lot of fun, particularly the RW version and I have about half of the burns already, I just can't stomach the cost of both Arid Mesa and Scalding Tarn at the moment.
Suddenshock also does other things, both in other mathups and that same matchup. It stops kiki/finks blowouts, it kills an EOT pestermite with only 2 open mana (if you were on rakdos charm they could just tap you out.) It hits the dome for 2 if it not needed.
Pod also doesn't have to go too deep with restoration angels to make it lethal, so rakdos charm may not always be lethal.
Im jut saying that I find kiki-pod to be a difficult matchup, relying on a single card to win it seems it pretty bad.
No, it's not bad but what makes you think Sudden shock is an answer? Exarch + Twin says hi.
4 Rakdos Charm and 2 torpor orb work best if Splinter Twin combo is worrying you.
Takes care of nearly every deck that has a game against us.
Here's a tip for game 2 against combo and some other decks. Don't be afraid to take it slow. I know it goes against our whole method, but if you're packing an answer in hand, waste your sorcery speed things on turns 1 and 2 where they're not going to combo out. Then pocket your bolts and charms for the end of their turn. For every turn past 3, it gets more and more dangerous to tap out on their main phase.
And if you have no clue what's going on (for instance, you flattened them game 1 before they got a key identifying spell off), don't be afraid to swap in rakdos charm. It handles so many decks, particularly the combo decks that will durdle or concede a downhill game 1 so you don't know what's up.
Worse comes to worst against wur tempo that durdled and you thought it was combo... at some point, they'll plop a couple critters and you can get some value for your card by picking the burn mode.
Here's what I'm thinking: I'm a little wary of Grim Lavamancer to begin with - I feel like it's too slow for my taste. (It also doesn't help that I need those fetches, heh.)
So I drop the Lavamancers and slot in 3 Magma Jet - to help ensure the lands keep rolling out for Searing Blaze.
Here's what I'm thinking: I'm a little wary of Grim Lavamancer to begin with - I feel like it's too slow for my taste. (It also doesn't help that I need those fetches, heh.)
So I drop the Lavamancers and slot in 3 Magma Jet - to help ensure the lands keep rolling out for Searing Blaze.
Magma Jet helps you have however many lands you need. cast it turn 2 and you're pretty likely to see a third land turn 3.
You cast magma get turn 2 and your behind 4 damage :S
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Standard: pft, i love to see my cards depreciate in value once they rotate :S
Mordern: Melira, UR Storm, RDW, Infect, W life/control, UW Tron
Legacy: RDW, Pox
Vintage: Dark Depths, R Grey Orge
The probability of getting 2 lands for top decks if you are only running 19/18 is extremely low. Look at the deck list on page 7 that won a PTQ did not run magma jet. Magma jet is a slow card for burn 2 mana for 2 damage sucks, you shouldn't need to filter anything on average, even mulling is better than running magma jet. But i play the math with burn, because that is basically what it is.
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Standard: pft, i love to see my cards depreciate in value once they rotate :S
Mordern: Melira, UR Storm, RDW, Infect, W life/control, UW Tron
Legacy: RDW, Pox
Vintage: Dark Depths, R Grey Orge
You have literally no idea how the math of burn works if you think Magma Jet is hurting us. Just because a deck wins without them doesn't mean they're bad; it means that deck could have been better with their inclusion.
Yes it could have done better than first :S I wonder where you have learnt your math. We want as many 1 for 3 spells as possible, followed by cards that give us advantage i.e. Hellspark elemental, searing blaze. 2 for 2 is really bad.
Edit; for a T3 win none of this T4 slowness
T1 GG = 6 damage
T2 Bolt + VD = 3 + 4 = 7
T3 Bolt, Bolt, Bolt = 9 damage (or bolt equivalent)
That's 22 damage by Turn 3 with 9 cards (3 land) (Which is plenty if they run sac/shock lands) which gives you 1 mull if u need to, If they do use a shock/sac you can kill them with only 7 cards!!! (2 land)
You want 3 lands out of 9/10 cards, so you should run between 18/20 lands out of 60 to get 3 land by Turn 3, no filtering needed
Standard: pft, i love to see my cards depreciate in value once they rotate :S
Mordern: Melira, UR Storm, RDW, Infect, W life/control, UW Tron
Legacy: RDW, Pox
Vintage: Dark Depths, R Grey Orge
I really don't think Magma Jet is as bad as you think it is. The RW deck that just won that PTQ (on page 7) ran 7 2cc cards that would net him 2 damage at least. Ash Zealot will get you 2 damage most of the time, and depending on the matchup, will get you more off of the ability it has. The same goes for Keldon Marauders. It will alway be 2 damage for 2 mana, but can get you more if it sticks around. Magma Jet is the same way, but it's advantage is that it will let us bottom 2 insignificant cards. For example, you cast Magma Jet, see you have 2 lands, bottom them both, you've made sure that you're not drawing dead for the next 2 turns. Now lets say you casted Magma Jetand found you have 2 burns spells, you keep both. Now you know what you're going to draw and can plan your next 2 turns around that information. It might not seem like much, but that information helps a lot.
I'm not saying that Magma Jet is better than Ash ZealotKeldon Marauders but when putting those cards in your deck you need to assume that you're going to get them at face value and that you might get the "extras" on the card.
I'd play Magma jet before I would touch Marauders or Hellspark Elemental. Both were good creatures, but nowadays, they do not much except feeding opponents Deathrite Shamans. I am also not a big fan of Lavamancer anymore, he is just slow, and he doesn't make any MUs realy "better" than they already are. he is also the worst 1st turn drop in the deck, and you don't really want to play him later.
OTOH I am a huge fan of Ash Zealot. She punishes the random remaining combo players, punishes players with Snapcaster Mages, and she can block! This seems like an stupid argument in an all-in-ish deck like Burn, but being able to block or swing into a Geist is quite relevant, IMO.
Magma Jet helps you have however many lands you need. cast it turn 2 and you're pretty likely to see a third land turn 3.
Firstly, counting on Magma Jet for that is extremely narrow. As well as "forcing" your turn2 play instead of leaving you open options(those things you want).
But more importantly, a lot of people(like me), stopped using magma jet a while ago as it's too slow. And with high enough threat density from running a lower land count, scry starts becoming less and less relevant. I haven't missed it.
Hi revel, i was wondering what kind of affinity decks you faced. In my local store there is a guy using a Tezzeret Version of afinnity and it seems just super hard to beat him. Do you try to run more than they? Or you choose to behave more in a controlish way killing their creatures? I dont know but it seems like when they play 1 thopter +1 signal+ flying lifelinker you really seem in trouble since your searing blaze will take care of the lifelinker but then next turn maybe they drop Arcbound Ravager which makes ALL your removal almost useless, really, and then they will have even more stuff next turn, like master of etherium, cranial, tezzeret....
I ve tested pre-sbing against this affinity and lost around 10/10 games. Arcbound ravager+disciple+flying lifelinker+master of etherium+cranial plating+tezzeret... all these cards are just too much for burn. When we usually have around 1 searing blaze+ 2 bolts to take care of things.
Both decks I faced had ravager, and yeah he's a major pain in the ass. Thankfully by the time they had gotten him out in the second games I managed to get my ensaring bridge out. The card is absolutely bonkers gainst affinity. And yeah mono red has always played a more control style against affinity, the majority of their threats die to our removal, and we will eventually kill them with burn. Path helps a lot with ravager as well. And you can always burn what they attempt to move their counters onto as well.
Hi Revel, thank you for answering all my questions! I have a couple more if you don't mind
1) How did Keldon Marauders work for you? It's just that the card seems really bad to me vs. a lot of decks and isn't a great topdeck either. Could you, and anyone else for that matter, elaborate a bit on this?
2) How did playing 15 two-mana spells work, as in did it significantly influence the number of possible turn three or four kills? Does it ever happen that you have way too many two-mana spells in hand, especially given that you play only nineteen lands?
3) Can I get your opinion on Vexing Devil? I am still not completely sold on him but would like to try him out.
4) Is there a specific reason why you did not play a set of Shard Volleys? I have a really hard time cutting these from my deck.
Thanks!
Marauders has always been just something you had to run in mono red, he's not incredibly exciting but gets the job done. Even if he eats a lightning bolt/ path youre still shocking them which is pretty sweet. I was happy running 3.
I didn't get any turn 3 kills if I can remember, but I had plenty of games where my opponent was more than dead to the burn I had in hand at that point. The deck has absurd reach.
Vexing devil is insane in modern. People are doing so much damage to themselves off of manabases that he is super awkward to deal with. The hands where you get multiple of him also feel super unfair as well .
As you said earlier, I'm running a large number of two drops, so shard volley is kinda awkward
I was the guy playing the deck, if you guys have any questions. I faced the UWR geist deck twice, and found the matchup extremely favourable actually. I was on the draw all 4 games and still felt like I had my opponent on the backfoot the entire time. Faced affinity twice, which is obviously heavily in our favour. Also faced jund twice, winning in 3 both matches. Matchup depends heavily on them getting a few cards (finks, inquisition).
Also faced a few durdly do-nothing decks, all of which seemed heavily in my favour as well. Only match loss was against twin, the deck just seems to have so much redundancy. In the second game against him I killed two sets worth of combo, and he just had the third to win. Was pretty brutal.
I really liked the maindeck, it seems that you have so many cards that (will on average at least) do 4 damage (Charm, Vexing Devil, Goblin Guide, Lavamancer) that it's just extremely easy to burn people out. I might make a few changes to the sideboard, maybe having a couple extra cards for the jund matchup. The Back to Natures were for the enchantment deck, which I knew at least one person would be playing and is normally our worst matchup.
-What are your thoughts on RBW burn? especially for Bump as an additional bolt. and access to Rakdos charm and maybe surgical extraction Post SB?
- Ive always run 3 paths SB LOL... gets rid of Iona, Kiki, protection from red critters, overgrown goyfs... its like a super pesticide lol. Plus i love the look of terror when i cast a pte from what my opponent expected to be mono red...:cool2:
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I was the guy playing the deck, if you guys have any questions. I faced the UWR geist deck twice, and found the matchup extremely favourable actually. I was on the draw all 4 games and still felt like I had my opponent on the backfoot the entire time. Faced affinity twice, which is obviously heavily in our favour. Also faced jund twice, winning in 3 both matches. Matchup depends heavily on them getting a few cards (finks, inquisition).
Also faced a few durdly do-nothing decks, all of which seemed heavily in my favour as well. Only match loss was against twin, the deck just seems to have so much redundancy. In the second game against him I killed two sets worth of combo, and he just had the third to win. Was pretty brutal.
I really liked the maindeck, it seems that you have so many cards that (will on average at least) do 4 damage (Charm, Vexing Devil, Goblin Guide, Lavamancer) that it's just extremely easy to burn people out. I might make a few changes to the sideboard, maybe having a couple extra cards for the jund matchup. The Back to Natures were for the enchantment deck, which I knew at least one person would be playing and is normally our worst matchup.
Also, how was Ash Zealot? I've been testing against Jund and Pod lately, and even Hellspark Elemental is starting to look disgustingly bad against those decks (given the hands they keep, it deals 3 damage at best the majority of the time). I haven't tested against UWR Midrange yet, though, and I suspect Ash Zealot is significantly better against them.
Skullcrack was fine in the board, I didn't actually ever get to cast it in response to any lifegain unfortunately. I did get to hold it up against jund twice during the day, but they didn't have the finks anyways. If I was worried that my opponent might have a finks I would hold up skullcrack, but I don't think it's worth it to leave up skullcrack and miss playing a two drop to counter the lifegain from lightning helix. It was essentially a Lava Spike with an upside most of the time.
Ash Zealot was awesome, it's everything you want and more against the UWR decks, it punishes snapcaster while also killing all of their creatures outside of Resto Angel in combat. Against jund it is obviously not as good, but I also killed a number of goyfs by searing blaze or lightning bolt after first strike. All in all I was really happy with her.
Haste is a huge part of why Zealot is amazing, sure they can kill her, but then they aren't killing your 1 drops. And if they don't have removal she is still relevant later on in the game, something that cannot be said about other creatures.
I liked RW over BR mostly because I saw boros charm and helix complimenting mono-r more than bump/shaman. Charm being 4 damage is huge, and helix allows you to play extremely greedy vs other faster decks (zoo, affinity, other burn decks, etc).
I used the indestructibilty on Charm once, to try to keep my lavamancer around against jund. He had another removal spell, but if it had worked it wouldve been excellent. Mostly its just a really efficient burn spell.
I liked the maindeck for the most part, searing blaze is an incredible card, but one that you rarely if ever want to draw in multiples. I'm happy with running 3. I definitely would keep the zealots around.
PTE are good against a fair number of decks, most notably against twin. It is also excellent against afinity, and gives you a reasonable answer against finks. It's not an incredibly exciting card, but it's very effective.
Relic only got sided in once, but I felt that I needed at least a couple of cards to fight any sort of reanimator/eggs deck. Once again not very exciting, but neccessary to keep your sideboard balanced.
It looks like a lot of fun, particularly the RW version and I have about half of the burns already, I just can't stomach the cost of both Arid Mesa and Scalding Tarn at the moment.
If I play 4 Gemstone Mine and 4 City of Brass would I have a reliable enough manabase?
I never expect to hit a third land drop running only 16-18 lands...
No, it's not bad but what makes you think Sudden shock is an answer? Exarch + Twin says hi.
4 Rakdos Charm and 2 torpor orb work best if Splinter Twin combo is worrying you.
Here's my sideboard:
4 Rakdos Charm
3 Blood Moon
2 Torpor Orb
3 Skullcrack
3 Volcanic Fallout
Takes care of nearly every deck that has a game against us.
Here's a tip for game 2 against combo and some other decks. Don't be afraid to take it slow. I know it goes against our whole method, but if you're packing an answer in hand, waste your sorcery speed things on turns 1 and 2 where they're not going to combo out. Then pocket your bolts and charms for the end of their turn. For every turn past 3, it gets more and more dangerous to tap out on their main phase.
And if you have no clue what's going on (for instance, you flattened them game 1 before they got a key identifying spell off), don't be afraid to swap in rakdos charm. It handles so many decks, particularly the combo decks that will durdle or concede a downhill game 1 so you don't know what's up.
Worse comes to worst against wur tempo that durdled and you thought it was combo... at some point, they'll plop a couple critters and you can get some value for your card by picking the burn mode.
So I drop the Lavamancers and slot in 3 Magma Jet - to help ensure the lands keep rolling out for Searing Blaze.
4 Goblin Guide
4 Vexing Devil
4 Ash Zealot
Instants (21)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Boros Charm
3 Magma Jet
3 Searing Blaze
3 Volcanic Fallout
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
Lands (19)
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
8 Mountain
3 Plains
3 Path to Exile
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Skullcrack
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Torpor Orb
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Molten Rain
I'm worried most about lands, but I think this should be pretty solid. Any thoughts?
EDIT: Hmm, forgot about Blood Moon, which I love. Might drop Molten Rain and Relic for 3 Moons and another Skullcrack.
I'd cut the plains for Foundries. It is my opinion that in a burn deck every land should be able to tap for red, with the sole exception of fetches.
You cast magma get turn 2 and your behind 4 damage :S
Mordern: Melira, UR Storm, RDW, Infect, W life/control, UW Tron
Legacy: RDW, Pox
Vintage: Dark Depths, R Grey Orge
Hah! After you draw the 2 lands on top of your deck, you're behind 4 damage as well.
Card filtering is a good thing.
Watch my Twitch.tv stream.
Take the Ham Challenge.
Mordern: Melira, UR Storm, RDW, Infect, W life/control, UW Tron
Legacy: RDW, Pox
Vintage: Dark Depths, R Grey Orge
Yes it could have done better than first :S I wonder where you have learnt your math. We want as many 1 for 3 spells as possible, followed by cards that give us advantage i.e. Hellspark elemental, searing blaze. 2 for 2 is really bad.
Edit; for a T3 win none of this T4 slowness
T1 GG = 6 damage
T2 Bolt + VD = 3 + 4 = 7
T3 Bolt, Bolt, Bolt = 9 damage (or bolt equivalent)
That's 22 damage by Turn 3 with 9 cards (3 land) (Which is plenty if they run sac/shock lands) which gives you 1 mull if u need to, If they do use a shock/sac you can kill them with only 7 cards!!! (2 land)
You want 3 lands out of 9/10 cards, so you should run between 18/20 lands out of 60 to get 3 land by Turn 3, no filtering needed
Mordern: Melira, UR Storm, RDW, Infect, W life/control, UW Tron
Legacy: RDW, Pox
Vintage: Dark Depths, R Grey Orge
I'm not saying that Magma Jet is better than Ash Zealot Keldon Marauders but when putting those cards in your deck you need to assume that you're going to get them at face value and that you might get the "extras" on the card.
OTOH I am a huge fan of Ash Zealot. She punishes the random remaining combo players, punishes players with Snapcaster Mages, and she can block! This seems like an stupid argument in an all-in-ish deck like Burn, but being able to block or swing into a Geist is quite relevant, IMO.
Firstly, counting on Magma Jet for that is extremely narrow. As well as "forcing" your turn2 play instead of leaving you open options(those things you want).
But more importantly, a lot of people(like me), stopped using magma jet a while ago as it's too slow. And with high enough threat density from running a lower land count, scry starts becoming less and less relevant. I haven't missed it.
Both decks I faced had ravager, and yeah he's a major pain in the ass. Thankfully by the time they had gotten him out in the second games I managed to get my ensaring bridge out. The card is absolutely bonkers gainst affinity. And yeah mono red has always played a more control style against affinity, the majority of their threats die to our removal, and we will eventually kill them with burn. Path helps a lot with ravager as well. And you can always burn what they attempt to move their counters onto as well.
Marauders has always been just something you had to run in mono red, he's not incredibly exciting but gets the job done. Even if he eats a lightning bolt/ path youre still shocking them which is pretty sweet. I was happy running 3.
I didn't get any turn 3 kills if I can remember, but I had plenty of games where my opponent was more than dead to the burn I had in hand at that point. The deck has absurd reach.
Vexing devil is insane in modern. People are doing so much damage to themselves off of manabases that he is super awkward to deal with. The hands where you get multiple of him also feel super unfair as well
As you said earlier, I'm running a large number of two drops, so shard volley is kinda awkward
-What are your thoughts on RBW burn? especially for Bump as an additional bolt. and access to Rakdos charm and maybe surgical extraction Post SB?
- Ive always run 3 paths SB LOL... gets rid of Iona, Kiki, protection from red critters, overgrown goyfs... its like a super pesticide lol. Plus i love the look of terror when i cast a pte from what my opponent expected to be mono red...:cool2: