That's interesting you had success with it. Mine always seemed to die to removal before it could make any substantial impact.
It helps if they have to use their removal on Goblin Guide, Swiftspear or Eidolon first. I ran Lavamancer as a 3 of when I played it. It was fine in many match ups.
I'll definetely be watching the lists and reports back for cruise and swiftspear though so when you have tournament results please do drop a line as lots of us are interested in how they do!
I just posted 5 results from a tournament this last weekend, and Treasure Cruise was in 4 of the 5 lists. Swiftspear was in all 5.
I'm glad someone brought this up; I've thought about the 1-of Faithless Looting before too. I think that when we get a good hand, we probably are a huge favorite against almost any match-up. If we get this good draw with a Faithless Looting, it is still pretty much a perfect mulligan to 6 with an upside. Then, when we draw it if we're flooded or stuck on a single land or draw too many 2-mana costing spells, it fixes our draw. However, I don't know if it's worth it anymore because I realized that mulliganing is also one of our main hindrances, and the Faithless Looting will get much worse as we mulligan. Also not really sure it's needed anymore now that we have Treasure Cruise (which I'm still not using).
I could see using Faithless Looting as a way to dig for more burn, while powering Treasure Cruise at the same time. I think my biggest issue is that we don't have a ton of cards that we want to pitch outside of extra lands. Hellspark Elemental is not good enough to make room for, and there isn't much else that can do something from our grave.
Well if we're mana flooded we pitch the extra lands, but if we're mana screwed we pitch spells that are much more mana intensive to cast, such as Shard Volley, Skullcrack, or unwanted multiples of Searing Blaze or Eidolon of the Great Revel. If we have nothing good to pitch it usually means we have a very good hand, in which case we probably have the upper hand anyway. However, again, I still don't think it's worth it because of how much worse it gets when we mulligan.
Ah. If WUR Control is giving you issues, than Blood Moon or 4 copies of Molten Rain are the best ways to fight them. Beyond that, it's a cat and mouse game of when to Skullcrack. Play around counterspells whenever possible and cast every instant during their endstep (baiting first with the non-Crack card, then responding with Crack if necessary). Having a few extra sorceries in our deck with Cruise doesn't help, so those might actually get sided out (if you're playing it) for the LD plan postboard. But if you're playing UWR BURN, you have access to just as many instants as them and they are generally on the backfoot. Eidolon shines here, but you still need to try and get in there with your Guides and Spears whenever possible. Just don't all in on Prowess activations when you can save the damage for later, assuming they are representing removal. One last card you could try if this matchup is really giving you fits is Shrine of Burning Rage. It's slow but they generally won't have an answer for it, and it can easily accrue enough damage to simply take them out after a few turns of sitting in play. Once again, try and always leave up the activation mana once you can to play around Cryptic or possibly Wear/Tear type cards.
Faithless Looting is interesting, but I think not necessary. It's only going to help you when you open up with too many lands, or happen to draw them back-to-back-to-back, but you're still down a card so it's not great. Powering Cruise is fine, but we do that so fast anyway that I don't think it's incentive enough. And what do you cut? This deck officially now has too many good options, assuming you splash. Even without Cruise, there are easily 40 other cards that I'd rather play over Faithless Looting.
I do think Volcanic Fallout is very well positioned right now, and can probably just straight up replace Searing Blood in most Boards.
I'm focusing on Legacy for the next couple weeks, but I'll be back to Cruise Burn in Modern shortly thereafter. I will definitely be sleeving up a "Jeskai" flavored list when that time comes.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
I could never warm up to Faithless Looting but Dangerous Wager was a personal favorite when it was standard legal. Pitching an empty hand was never a draw back.
I´ve played versions with shrine of burning rage as a one of, and another one on the board agaisnt UWR before, the shrine generates inevitability, either they counter it or they have to spend a cryptic command to bounce it, or else the shrine will just finish them off. The thing is, this deck is not trying to play a grindy game, we want to be proactive and always threaten lethal damage, I prefer molten rain over any of those options, but if you had to pick between those two (shrine and moon), blood moon is definitely the more powerful card as it can shut them out completely.
Yeah that advice seems good. I still don't feel like molten rain is enough though; I've hit two of them and still lost (though I think I got hit by two helices that game and didn't have any skullcracks). Also, if they play helices right you can't even get to skullcrack them. They shouldn't have to play one until either you are tapped out or they are about to die.
I like shrine of the burning rage but haven't had a chance to get it on the board against UWR yet. I'm thinking two shrines and two blood moons should be pretty strong against them though.
The matchup is a cat-mouse kind of game it can lead to fun interactions, but any deck that runs 4 helix main, is gonna be somewhat advantaged against us. It´s never enough hate against them, but the tools to slow them down certainly are there. If someone resolves two helixes against you, the burn deck is most likely two cards down virtually, in a shell that looks for a critical mass of spells that is never optimal.
How do we deal with geist of saint traft other than outrace it vs UWR?
Also, I've seen a few cruise burn decks with geist in their sideboard, when do they side it in and is it worth the sb slots?
How do we deal with geist of saint traft other than outrace it vs UWR?
Also, I've seen a few cruise burn decks with geist in their sideboard, when do they side it in and is it worth the sb slots?
Looking for some constructive criticism on this 5-colour creatureless burn deck. I know it's off the wall but I used to play a similar deck online before mana confluence and treasure cruise were around to mixed results. I think both those cards make it better. Probe is a new addition too. Is it viable, probably not but I'm going to give it a try and see how it does.
If you are going the creatureless burn rout, i would advise Searing Blaze and Searing Blood. Especially since you use Forbidden Orchid. So you give them a 1/1 dude, now you have a target with the Searing cards.
Goblin Guide, Monestary Swiftspear and Eidolon are what makes Burn tier 1 right now. Having any of those creatures on the field means that your opponent is under pressure. Eidolon especially is a huge threat if they dont kill it.
You should take the Gitaxian Probes out though, without Swiftspear, they have no damage output. Replace Slagstorm with Volcanic Fallout. And since you are playing 5 coloured Burn, use that Tribal Flames (whatever its called) card.
To me Lavamancer helps me grind out against Affinity which remains one of my weaker match up's. I've thought about putting a third on side to pull in. He is golden value for grindy games and you can simply outlast them. I'm just not sold on the Cruise to add it to my list, plus 3 colors is scary enough to me and 4 just seems almost ludicrous. I still have matchups with what I feel is an excellent balance of fetch/shock/fast lands and there are times where a black or white casting cost card will go unplayed because I didn't have the colors. Thankfully it hasn't actually costed me a game yet.
I'll definetely be watching the lists and reports back for cruise and swiftspear though so when you have tournament results please do drop a line as lots of us are interested in how they do!
I find Lavamancer to be a good sideboarding card for me, as 80% of my match-ups have always had an answer for him/his board presence didn't last long enough. It seems most of the decklists now are utilizing him as such, where he shines in affinity match-ups yet won't be a dead card against burn which will just kill him instantly.
http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/92162 is more similar to what I'm running, save for the Hellspark Elementals. In fact, it's exactly the list except I'm splashing black for Bump in the Night in place of the Hellspark and a Skullcrack in exchange for the Magma Jet he is running. I really want to run Blood Moon, but it would affect my own mana base by denying me access to White/Black. It's worth a consideration.
If you are going the creatureless burn rout, i would advise Searing Blaze and Searing Blood. Especially since you use Forbidden Orchid. So you give them a 1/1 dude, now you have a target with the Searing cards.
Goblin Guide, Monestary Swiftspear and Eidolon are what makes Burn tier 1 right now. Having any of those creatures on the field means that your opponent is under pressure. Eidolon especially is a huge threat if they dont kill it.
You should take the Gitaxian Probes out though, without Swiftspear, they have no damage output. Replace Slagstorm with Volcanic Fallout. And since you are playing 5 coloured Burn, use that Tribal Flames (whatever its called) card.
Good point about the searing bloods/blazes. Same with fallout. The probe gives info and helps fuel treasure cruise. tribal flames counts the basic land types so at best it would do 1 damage here (mountains are the only basic land type in the list).
" Rulings
2/1/2009 To determine the number of basic land types among lands you control, look at the lands you have on the battlefield and ask yourself whether the subtypes Plains, Island, Swamp, Mountain, and Forest appear within that group. The number of times you say yes (topping out at five) tells you how powerful your domain abilities will be.
2/1/2009 How many lands you control of a particular basic land type is irrelevant to a domain ability, as long as that number is greater than zero. As far as domain is concerned, ten Forests is the same as one Forest.
2/1/2009 A number of nonbasic lands have basic land types. Domain abilities don't count the number of lands you control -- they count the number of basic land types among lands you control, even if that means checking the same land twice. For example, if you control a Tundra, an Overgrown Tomb, and a Madblind Mountain, you'll have a Plains, Island, Swamp, Mountain, and Forest among the lands you control. Your domain abilities will be maxed out."
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I think the creatureless burn route or just eidolon route is super interesting but haven't tested it. In theory, I like it because it makes all your opponents creature removal spells dead if they don't know what you are playing, and they won't side them out (they'll assume you have creatures). Furthermore, you generally don't care about their board unless it gains them life as burn, in fact to some extent you essentially brick their creatures too because usually a lot of their creatures simply function as blockers in the matchup.
The big advantages to creatures I see though are:
1)They eat your opponents mana to kill
2)They can potentially 4+ damage
3)They can serve as blockers in longer games
4)They eat kill spells that might otherwise have hit an eidolon
I've been looking at the GW Hatebears deck, and it seems to just destroy the current burn deck. Granted, I performed okay in my one test against it, but there are some problematic cards: The Ghost Quarter/Leonin Arbiter combo is devestating, Loxodon cannot be killed with one burn spell, Aven Mindcensor hinders searching for vital mana (not to mention, Spellskite prevents the destruction of key creatures by redirecting burn spells.) I wonder if GW will be the approach people take to combating the Treasure burn. If Treasure Cruise gets banned and GW is running around modern wrecking burn decks, I fear the fate of this deck may be sealed. Premature anxiety?
It helps if they have to use their removal on Goblin Guide, Swiftspear or Eidolon first. I ran Lavamancer as a 3 of when I played it. It was fine in many match ups.
I just posted 5 results from a tournament this last weekend, and Treasure Cruise was in 4 of the 5 lists. Swiftspear was in all 5.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
Ah. If WUR Control is giving you issues, than Blood Moon or 4 copies of Molten Rain are the best ways to fight them. Beyond that, it's a cat and mouse game of when to Skullcrack. Play around counterspells whenever possible and cast every instant during their endstep (baiting first with the non-Crack card, then responding with Crack if necessary). Having a few extra sorceries in our deck with Cruise doesn't help, so those might actually get sided out (if you're playing it) for the LD plan postboard. But if you're playing UWR BURN, you have access to just as many instants as them and they are generally on the backfoot. Eidolon shines here, but you still need to try and get in there with your Guides and Spears whenever possible. Just don't all in on Prowess activations when you can save the damage for later, assuming they are representing removal. One last card you could try if this matchup is really giving you fits is Shrine of Burning Rage. It's slow but they generally won't have an answer for it, and it can easily accrue enough damage to simply take them out after a few turns of sitting in play. Once again, try and always leave up the activation mana once you can to play around Cryptic or possibly Wear/Tear type cards.
Faithless Looting is interesting, but I think not necessary. It's only going to help you when you open up with too many lands, or happen to draw them back-to-back-to-back, but you're still down a card so it's not great. Powering Cruise is fine, but we do that so fast anyway that I don't think it's incentive enough. And what do you cut? This deck officially now has too many good options, assuming you splash. Even without Cruise, there are easily 40 other cards that I'd rather play over Faithless Looting.
I do think Volcanic Fallout is very well positioned right now, and can probably just straight up replace Searing Blood in most Boards.
I'm focusing on Legacy for the next couple weeks, but I'll be back to Cruise Burn in Modern shortly thereafter. I will definitely be sleeving up a "Jeskai" flavored list when that time comes.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I like shrine of the burning rage but haven't had a chance to get it on the board against UWR yet. I'm thinking two shrines and two blood moons should be pretty strong against them though.
Legacy: Maverick
Also, I've seen a few cruise burn decks with geist in their sideboard, when do they side it in and is it worth the sb slots?
Volcanic Fallout.
RRRAshling, the PilgrimRRR
UUUThadda Adel, AcquisitorUUU
4 Bump in the Night
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Glittering Wish
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
3 Shard Volley
4 Skullcrack
4 Slagstorm
4 Treasure Cruise
4 City of Brass
3 Forbidden Orchard
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
2 Mountain
3 Reflecting Pool
3 Destructive Revelry
1 Golgari Charm
1 Jund Charm
3 Molten Rain
3 Rakdos Charm
1 Selesnya Charm
My sales thread: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/1651-ktk-for-sale
If you are going the creatureless burn rout, i would advise Searing Blaze and Searing Blood. Especially since you use Forbidden Orchid. So you give them a 1/1 dude, now you have a target with the Searing cards.
Goblin Guide, Monestary Swiftspear and Eidolon are what makes Burn tier 1 right now. Having any of those creatures on the field means that your opponent is under pressure. Eidolon especially is a huge threat if they dont kill it.
You should take the Gitaxian Probes out though, without Swiftspear, they have no damage output. Replace Slagstorm with Volcanic Fallout. And since you are playing 5 coloured Burn, use that Tribal Flames (whatever its called) card.
I find Lavamancer to be a good sideboarding card for me, as 80% of my match-ups have always had an answer for him/his board presence didn't last long enough. It seems most of the decklists now are utilizing him as such, where he shines in affinity match-ups yet won't be a dead card against burn which will just kill him instantly.
http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/92162 is more similar to what I'm running, save for the Hellspark Elementals. In fact, it's exactly the list except I'm splashing black for Bump in the Night in place of the Hellspark and a Skullcrack in exchange for the Magma Jet he is running. I really want to run Blood Moon, but it would affect my own mana base by denying me access to White/Black. It's worth a consideration.
My current list:
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Eidolon of the Great Revel
3 Keldon Marauders
Spells:
3 Searing Blaze
4 lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Bump in the Night
3 Lightning Helix
4 Boros Charm
1 Skullcrack
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Stomping Ground
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Blood Crypt
6 Mountain
2 Smash to Smithereens
3 Destructive Revelry
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Rain of Gore
3 Dragon's Claw
2 Volcanic Fallout
Good point about the searing bloods/blazes. Same with fallout. The probe gives info and helps fuel treasure cruise. tribal flames counts the basic land types so at best it would do 1 damage here (mountains are the only basic land type in the list).
My sales thread: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/1651-ktk-for-sale
" Rulings
2/1/2009 To determine the number of basic land types among lands you control, look at the lands you have on the battlefield and ask yourself whether the subtypes Plains, Island, Swamp, Mountain, and Forest appear within that group. The number of times you say yes (topping out at five) tells you how powerful your domain abilities will be.
2/1/2009 How many lands you control of a particular basic land type is irrelevant to a domain ability, as long as that number is greater than zero. As far as domain is concerned, ten Forests is the same as one Forest.
2/1/2009 A number of nonbasic lands have basic land types. Domain abilities don't count the number of lands you control -- they count the number of basic land types among lands you control, even if that means checking the same land twice. For example, if you control a Tundra, an Overgrown Tomb, and a Madblind Mountain, you'll have a Plains, Island, Swamp, Mountain, and Forest among the lands you control. Your domain abilities will be maxed out."
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
The big advantages to creatures I see though are:
1)They eat your opponents mana to kill
2)They can potentially 4+ damage
3)They can serve as blockers in longer games
4)They eat kill spells that might otherwise have hit an eidolon
Legacy: Maverick
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
Instants (16)
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Searing Blaze
2 Shard Volley
4 Skullcrack
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Treasure Cruise
Lands (20)
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Sacred Foundry
3 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
4 Mountain
3 Destructive Revelry
4 Lightning Helix
2 Searing Blood
2 Smash to Smithereens
4 Volcanic Fallout
Can anyone help me with my mana base? I'm not sure if it's correct. I don't have access to Zendikar fetches. Thanks!