With a deck that has so much suicide to it, it seems running filter lands and reflecting pool as the best choice! Of course you would pack 4 Verdant Catacombs with possible one of each shockland (aka: Overgrown Tomb, Stomping Grounds and Blood Crypt.
Why has nobody considered it????? Apart from being a better mana base, its also much cheaper! With cards like Dark Confidant "pinging" you every turn, it seem necessary to even have an even game against zoo.
That's just my 2 cents.
if your running reflecting pool you cannot run any basics. I would try running fetches, basics, 3 shocks and some M10 lands.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
if your running reflecting pool you cannot run any basics. I would try running fetches, basics, 3 shocks and some M10 lands.
hmmm....why couldn't you just run 1 Forest and 1 Swamp? Please elaborate? You could fetch for them if you didn't want to pain and reflecting pool runs off any of your lands.
hmmm....why couldn't you just run 1 Forest and 1 Swamp? Please elaborate? You could fetch for them if you didn't want to pain and reflecting pool runs off any of your lands.
I suppose you could, but you'll make yourself weaker to blood moon and ghost quarters. Also you will increase the amount you mulligan because you will get hands with 1-2 reflecting pool and basics without any other land. There is no reason to using reflecting pool in 3 color mana bases. If you want you can post your list here and I will post a good mana base for you to start testing.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
As I mentioned in the OP, you don't need to be playing more than 3-5 total shocklands in the deck. Jund Isn't a deck that requires anything aside from turn 1 black mana, and considering Grove of the Burnwillows is already a dual land that doesn't hurt your life, the manabase is very easy to not make suicidal.
As for phyrexian arena, it's just a bit slower and more controlling than you really want in Jund. Bob just does what Arena does better as well as quicker.
I think Anathemancer has potential for sure. It really depends on the matchup. The one thing I really like about Mancer, is it's a great tool against control due to it's raw inevitability.
As for the dual Jund threads, the other Jund thread was littered with Junk, didn't have a properly written primer, and was mostly people trying to play Jund as it was in standard, not as it would be played in Modern. I just figured it would be proper to give it a fresh start.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find me online - I'm on Cockatrice * Tag - Badd B - Or on MTGO - Tag - Cbus05
I honestly feel that Jund is going to be one of the best decks in the format. I for one prefer Sprouting Thrinax because the only way to deal with it efficiently with is a Path to Exile. Anything it just replaces itself and in a deck with no really "draw" we really need to use our resources effectively to gain card advantage.
FWIW, I'm starting to think Magus of the Moon is the best hate card against 12post. My main issue with blood moon, is if it'll randomly stop you from casting your threats, and sometimes they'll just resolve all is dust via signets & land regardless. Magus at the very worst can be burned off by fire if you need to cast something in an emergency, and also can get some damage in during the meantime.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find me online - I'm on Cockatrice * Tag - Badd B - Or on MTGO - Tag - Cbus05
you could easily run enough spot land hate to avoid running blood moon effects.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
You already have 8 2 drop creatures, so playing an additional 4 floods the curve at the 2 mana slot, which isn't really where you want to be for Jund.
Actually, the correct use of Dark Confidant is to run almost exclusively 2cmc spells because in combination with land and 1cmc spells, you are averaging only -1 life per turn while still getting your extra card. The standard curve on the play is 12 one-drops, 21 two-drops, 4 three-drops, 2 four-drops, 21 land. And on the draw is 11 one-drops, 21 two-drops, 4 three-drops, 3 four-drops, 21 land. Or some variation thereof. More 4 drops, less 2 drops is acceptable in Modern as we almost need to play 4 BBE. Choosing the play/draw curve is up to which one you think you're on more often. Jund might not want to be at the 2cmc slot, but Bob does, and that makes me think if Modern Jund wants him.
I love Blood Moon because it is such an awesome single-handed answer to 12post and other decks. It can be a pain to play against, though, but if you're running it you should be able to play properly (cracking fetches for basics) in order not to get manascrewed. I think running LD is an interesting option too - Fulminator Mage is on my test list - but I just love Moon. However, Magus of the Moon might be better than it; really depends. I'll need to try things out.
The funny thing, is even without moon effects or land destruction, I still find myself winning a good portion of my matches against post style decks.
Thoughtseize & Blightning are very important cards in the matchup, as are your spot removal spells.
The worst card you can see vs. 12post is Wurmcoil Engine, since just about any other creature or artifact can be dealt with via removal spells. Ancient grudge is also a decent sideboard card here.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find me online - I'm on Cockatrice * Tag - Badd B - Or on MTGO - Tag - Cbus05
Was playing a few more matches trying to get a proper idea on Rise // Fall vs. Blightning. I think i'll be sticking to Rise // Fall. If played intelligently, it's a Hymn to Tourach at least 8/10 times. It can be downright gross at times. I would recommend playtesting with Rise // Fall before coming to the conclusion that Blightning is Better. Even with it's drawbacks, it's VERY debilitating at times.
I updated the primer with a section on matchups. Given, the matchups are what i've noticed in playing the deck so far, so it's not by any means a lock for how a given matchup will or won't be. But it's a good place to start for sure.
Was playing a few more matches trying to get a proper idea on Rise // Fall vs. Blightning. I think i'll be sticking to Rise // Fall. If played intelligently, it's a Hymn to Tourach at least 8/10 times. It can be downright gross at times. I would recommend playtesting with Rise // Fall before coming to the conclusion that Blightning is Better. Even with it's drawbacks, it's VERY debilitating at times.
I updated the primer with a section on matchups. Given, the matchups are what i've noticed in playing the deck so far, so it's not by any means a lock for how a given matchup will or won't be. But it's a good place to start for sure.
you could also run one or the other in the sideboard if you have the space. thats a lot of discard lol.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Another good reason to play magus over blood moon is that many 12post lists sideboard in nature's claim for game 2 as well as game 3. So magus is actually more difficult for them to deal with.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find me online - I'm on Cockatrice * Tag - Badd B - Or on MTGO - Tag - Cbus05
Another good reason to play magus over blood moon is that many 12post lists sideboard in nature's claim for game 2 as well as game 3. So magus is actually more difficult for them to deal with.
for sure. all they can do is bounce it if playing blue. If its a mono green build as far as I know they only have beast within to deal with it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
I'm definitely going to playtest Rise/Fall. But how do you "play it intelligently", exactly? Any tips?
Well, your biggest asset to Rise // Fall, is that you want to ideally hit a thoughtseize first, to see the land count they have.
If they're running low on lands, you wait for them to drop their 2nd land, then then chances are, you'll hit 2 cards at random.
If not, you wait a bit longer for them to play 3-4 lands potentially (more likely vs. control) then hit them when it's more likely they're only holding 2-3 money cards.
Vs. aggro decks like zoo, Affinity, etc, that typically drop their hand very early it's an easy turn 2 play since it's unlikely they'll be flooded with lots of lands, and their most "important" spells come after turn 1 & 2. The good thing, is if decks like these ARE landflooded, you're already winning anyway. If not, having them discard 2 money cards is going to set them back really really far, and put them into a war of card advantage they simply can't win.
Basically, you try to maximize rise // fall 's value by doing whatever you can to NOT hit any lands. Sometimes you will hit a land, it's inevitable, but if you play the odds, and play it right, you'll come out on the profitable side much more often than not. Another really beneficial part of rise // fall is that it can be played turn 2 potentially, which is crucial when playing vs. combo decks (much stronger than blightning here).
I'm considering splashing a singleton watery grave exclusively for the purpose of being able to hardcast rise when i want to make use of it. Not sure if it's worth it, but we'll see.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find me online - I'm on Cockatrice * Tag - Badd B - Or on MTGO - Tag - Cbus05
Ok - I need a little help here. I own most of these cards in my deck list that is below. I do NOT want to spend $$ on BOB, Goyf or the overpriced dual lands at the moment. What would you do with this deck list?
if your running reflecting pool you cannot run any basics. I would try running fetches, basics, 3 shocks and some M10 lands.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
hmmm....why couldn't you just run 1 Forest and 1 Swamp? Please elaborate? You could fetch for them if you didn't want to pain and reflecting pool runs off any of your lands.
I suppose you could, but you'll make yourself weaker to blood moon and ghost quarters. Also you will increase the amount you mulligan because you will get hands with 1-2 reflecting pool and basics without any other land. There is no reason to using reflecting pool in 3 color mana bases. If you want you can post your list here and I will post a good mana base for you to start testing.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
As for phyrexian arena, it's just a bit slower and more controlling than you really want in Jund. Bob just does what Arena does better as well as quicker.
I think Anathemancer has potential for sure. It really depends on the matchup. The one thing I really like about Mancer, is it's a great tool against control due to it's raw inevitability.
As for the dual Jund threads, the other Jund thread was littered with Junk, didn't have a properly written primer, and was mostly people trying to play Jund as it was in standard, not as it would be played in Modern. I just figured it would be proper to give it a fresh start.
I honestly feel that Jund is going to be one of the best decks in the format. I for one prefer Sprouting Thrinax because the only way to deal with it efficiently with is a Path to Exile. Anything it just replaces itself and in a deck with no really "draw" we really need to use our resources effectively to gain card advantage.
Also, Extirpate or Surgical Extraction is going to be necessary in the SB for combo decks.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=8122582#post8122582
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=8122582#post8122582
you could easily run enough spot land hate to avoid running blood moon effects.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Actually, the correct use of Dark Confidant is to run almost exclusively 2cmc spells because in combination with land and 1cmc spells, you are averaging only -1 life per turn while still getting your extra card. The standard curve on the play is 12 one-drops, 21 two-drops, 4 three-drops, 2 four-drops, 21 land. And on the draw is 11 one-drops, 21 two-drops, 4 three-drops, 3 four-drops, 21 land. Or some variation thereof. More 4 drops, less 2 drops is acceptable in Modern as we almost need to play 4 BBE. Choosing the play/draw curve is up to which one you think you're on more often. Jund might not want to be at the 2cmc slot, but Bob does, and that makes me think if Modern Jund wants him.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Thoughtseize & Blightning are very important cards in the matchup, as are your spot removal spells.
The worst card you can see vs. 12post is Wurmcoil Engine, since just about any other creature or artifact can be dealt with via removal spells. Ancient grudge is also a decent sideboard card here.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=8122582#post8122582
I updated the primer with a section on matchups. Given, the matchups are what i've noticed in playing the deck so far, so it's not by any means a lock for how a given matchup will or won't be. But it's a good place to start for sure.
you could also run one or the other in the sideboard if you have the space. thats a lot of discard lol.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
for sure. all they can do is bounce it if playing blue. If its a mono green build as far as I know they only have beast within to deal with it.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Well, your biggest asset to Rise // Fall, is that you want to ideally hit a thoughtseize first, to see the land count they have.
If they're running low on lands, you wait for them to drop their 2nd land, then then chances are, you'll hit 2 cards at random.
If not, you wait a bit longer for them to play 3-4 lands potentially (more likely vs. control) then hit them when it's more likely they're only holding 2-3 money cards.
Vs. aggro decks like zoo, Affinity, etc, that typically drop their hand very early it's an easy turn 2 play since it's unlikely they'll be flooded with lots of lands, and their most "important" spells come after turn 1 & 2. The good thing, is if decks like these ARE landflooded, you're already winning anyway. If not, having them discard 2 money cards is going to set them back really really far, and put them into a war of card advantage they simply can't win.
Basically, you try to maximize rise // fall 's value by doing whatever you can to NOT hit any lands. Sometimes you will hit a land, it's inevitable, but if you play the odds, and play it right, you'll come out on the profitable side much more often than not. Another really beneficial part of rise // fall is that it can be played turn 2 potentially, which is crucial when playing vs. combo decks (much stronger than blightning here).
I'm considering splashing a singleton watery grave exclusively for the purpose of being able to hardcast rise when i want to make use of it. Not sure if it's worth it, but we'll see.
2 Anathemancer
4 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Demigod of Revenge
2 Eternal Witness
3 Fauna Shaman
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Vampire Nighthawk
Planeswalkers [2]
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Sarkhan Vol
Spells [17]
3 Blightning
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Punishing Fire
1 Putrefy
2 Terminate
3 Thoughtseize
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Copperline Gorge
2 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Graven Cairns
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
2 Raging Ravine
1 Reflecting Pool
3 Savage Lands
1 Treetop Village
2 Twilight Mire
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Boggart Ram-Gang
3 Dismember
1 Extirpate
1 Jund Charm
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Molten Rain
1 Slagstorm
3 Surgical Extraction