How differently does RUG play than UR? Obviously adding the goyfs and green gives you more option, and I feel like Only win maybe 20% of my games of the combo anyways...and since I recently got my hands n some goyfs, I might want to try it for GP boston. However, I've been with UR tempo for about half a year now, and absolutely 0 experience with RUG....that said, the splash doesn't really add so much in terms of lines of play...i think. Should I go with what I know or try RUG? I feel like RUG would be better as it has more redundancy and ways to victory in a wide meta like a GP, considering I have no byes.
The difference is huge, actually. Your plan switches from majority combo or about 50/50 to plan A tempo with the goyfs, snapcasters and cryptics backed up by the plan B and threat of the combo. The difference seems slight but the way in which both decks are played is intricate and nuanced surprisngly large. I would reccomend sticking to straight UR if thats what your more familiar with.
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Currently Playing:
Modern: RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy: UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander: UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
Had a horrible time last night at a 60-person weekly event. Played against no less than 20 discard spells in 4 rounds, granted one opponent was 8-rack with Raven's crime , but still. Pod and Junk ripped me apart. I played like *****e too, but learned a few valuable lessons anyway:
1) Huntmaster was fun, and did well against Pod and 8-rack, but I probably wouldn't play him this weekend. Too fragile with all the midrange running around. Most likely 1 Thrun main is ideal, plus flex spot. Thundermaw is also a consideration, but is still weak to All of Junk's removal. It's actually possible we want a 2nd Electrolyze main. Inferno Titan is also a helluva card for you Izzet pilots out there.
2) Keranos is good but very slow. I almost want to go 2 Thrun 3 Batterskull for the Grindy matches. Prob overkill though. In any case, Thoughtseize is still a problem. Top deck well friends!
3) I'm far too new to Twin to play it this weekend. I can do fine against half the decks, but vs the grindier harder matchups I struggle too much with lines if play and Sideboarding to have an edge. To all you asking, I recommend playing what you know this weekend, rather than making major changes based on what might be "good." Half the battle is getting good matchups and strong draws, so it's best to be familiar with you deck inside and out to capitalize on the winners and scrape by in bad times.
I do think Twin will have its work cut out for it at GP Boston, but I expect at least a couple folks will Top 16. I personally am going back to the dark side and playing BGw Souls. I think it will be heavily represented at the GP and Id rather be the bad guy than lose to him. I will certainly play RUG again after next week, but in this case experience and power are too great to ignore. Good luck to you all this weekend, and may you never be paired against Thoughtseize until the finals.
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MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
2) Keranos is good but very slow. I almost want to go 2 Thrun 3 Batterskull for the Grindy matches. Prob overkill though. In any case, Thoughtseize is still a problem. Top deck well friends!
I got the same issue with Keranos. It seems to me Keranos is great when I'm ahead on the board state or there is a stalemate. It's not great when I was behind and needed a blocker/lifegain to get back into the game. I've taken out Keranos and thinking about adding a 2nd batteskull.
Yes Ive found that 3 batterskull is better than 2 and 1 keranos. hes just not good unless your playing SLOW decks. and while bg rock is slow its also got goyfs/lili/ thoughtsieze/ treetop village which ruin our day very fast. Ive been playing against rock exclusively just to find out how to beat it and im finding that 4 pestermites 2 deciever and 2 clique like dickmans older tempo twin list from last year is the way to go now (race over the top). And when they run lingering souls...well....blood moon and engineered explosives will pull alot of wieght also grim lavamancer is really good against bg/x decks and even pod (but not as good as anger of the gods against pod). that's my 2 cents on the match ups so far in play testing.
bg/x decks will be a very huge presence at the GP just as much as before deathrite was banned. either build to beat it or play it yourself.....or play gr tron
Though I like UR against Jund and BG, TarmoTwin is better against Junk, because Anger and Tarmogoyf are pretty important at fighting back against Lingering Souls. I'll likely be sticking with UR anyway, but I'm hoping to dodge Junk.
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Quote from Cyan »
...the lack of power of Divining Top is similarly obvious.
Keranos is much better than Batterskull against GB/x decks.
Uh, disagree. While I would say that Keranos is still very good against BG, he is not necessarily better.
Batterskull is worse against exactly Maelstrom Pulse (and similar effects like Rakdos Charm). So the "dies to removal" argument does apply to 'Skull, but likely not to Keranos. However, Keranos does absolutely nothing to help you stabilize against an opposing Thrun, Goyf, Scooze, or similar huge threat on their side. Assuming you are even or ahead, Keranos is probably a bit better. But when you are behind, he's not going to do much to get you back in the game unless your opponent is really low on life.
Keranos I think is still fine as a 1-of this weekend, as his effect is very unique and he performs well in specific corner cases, but I would still recommend Batterskull at the moment. They only have so many Pulse type effects, and the lifegain and threat of equipping is much more powerful when you need to turn the game around quickly. Keranos will eventually kill them too, but only given enough time. Jund decks are very good at NOT giving Twin decks much time in the lategame.
RE: Huntmaster. I understand the reasons why Huntmaster is attractive, and there are definitely cases where he is strictly better than something like Thrun, but unfortunately with the amount of removal everyone has, he's not that great in practice. Pod can Decay his flip side and generally still overcome the value you gain with their own engine. Affinity can ignore him or blast him if it's necessary. Snapcaster decks will Bolt or Path him without losing much value, and Jund decks will just run him over with removal. I understand that getting 2 life and a 2/2 is still valuable in some cases, but the truth is he's just a little to underpowered in the meta right now. Attracting removal away from your Exarch plan sounds good in theory, but in reality it's generally too late by the time you resolve Huntmaster to still attempt a combo win, and after boarding you often side out Twins in matchups where Huntmaster is good.
Thrun guarantees you a threat and is more consistent. Huntmaster has a lot more upside, but unfortunately he's not going to be sticking around in most cases to achieve his full potential.
As I said earlier, I'd recommend 2 Thrun and 3 Batterskull for GP Boston this weekend. In a meta with less BG/x, UWR, and other grindy matchups, it might be different, but that 2-card combo is the best way to overcome those decks post-board right now in my opinion.
So basically I'm a bit in doubt on what (UR)build I should play the upcoming event.
I expect quite a bit of BG/Jund/Junk/ like decks. Last event I played half of the top8 was BG/Junk/Jund/BW-discard-LSouls.
Main S.Seas? Playing Grim Lava? V.Shackles?
Any thoughts?
Currently I have 2 S.Seas and a V.Shackles. No Grim Lavamancers.
1 Kiki, 1 spellskite. Not to sure on those last two aswell.
The Jund/Junk/Rock decks are actually a BAD matchup for all Splinter Twin decks. Between their efficient hand disruption, removal and creatures, it's really hard to assemble the combo and they're far better setup for an attrition battle.
Unfortunately, the more you try to warp your Twin deck around the midrange green decks, the worse your other matchups get.
Your best bet is to simply continue to practice the match up and have a good sideboard plan. In my experience, Twin actually wins the games in which they draw a lot of discard with no pressure, as they then can't beat the top of your deck and winning with the combo becomes a very real thing. The games in which they have discards + pressure (Dark Confidant or Tarmogoyf) are the actual hard games to win. You really have to hope they're stupid enough to tap out for Liliana or Lingering Souls on their turn three so you have a window to combo. Be wary, however, Slaughter Pact is a real card.
Keranos, Threads of Disloyalty, Blood Moon, Vedalken Shackles and Batterskull all go a long way to winnings games two and three. If you're smart in how you deploy it, they basically can't beat Blood Moon.
If you have green for Tarmogoyf's of your own and therefore either Scavenging Ooze or Huntmaster of the Fells, the match up is SLIGHTLY easier, but not much.
I'm going to give huntermaster tarmotwin a try tonight for a local modern event. It is certainly worse against Scapeshift, but I'm not expecting much of that for PTQs anyway. Will try to make up my mind in time for this weekend's PTQ.
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Quote from Cyan »
...the lack of power of Divining Top is similarly obvious.
How does one approach the affinity matchup with RUG Twin? Game 1 feels like a throw away game and game 2 is sideboard peice? or no sideboard peice? or I lose. Its interesting as RUG twin I have heard is generally favored but the matchup feels awful. I may be playing the matchup wrong but I have played against a ton of affinity with lots of different decks (UWr, scapeshift, zoo, UR twin) and this deck has the worst matchup it seems out of all of those.
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Currently Playing:
Modern: RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy: UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander: UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
How does one approach the affinity matchup with RUG Twin? Game 1 feels like a throw away game and game 2 is sideboard peice? or no sideboard peice? or I lose. Its interesting as RUG twin I have heard is generally favored but the matchup feels awful. I may be playing the matchup wrong but I have played against a ton of affinity with lots of different decks (UWr, scapeshift, zoo, UR twin) and this deck has the worst matchup it seems out of all of those.
Really? I haven't had TOO much trouble with affinity game 1. Game 1 I always go for combo as affinity is too fast for beat down often times (unless they stumble and have slow starts which has happened and I've won with beatdown). I try to also be pretty smart with what I lighting bolt and what I let live. I don't fret too much about affinity game one because if they have the nut draw they have it and there's not much you can do I'm of the opinion that affinity has the best game 1 of any deck in the format. I get the feeling it is just your experience as mine hasn't been so bad but I have been wrong before.
Other then that post board it gets even better for us. Lots of lists have 2 ancient grudge, one natures claim, EE, 2 anger of the gods, spellskite (if you run those I don't) and you have a solid amount of hate for them. The plan is the same: combo off there is really not too much they can do about it.
Let me begin with the creature suite. 4 Mages and 6 combo pieces are very standard. Grim Lavamancer has proven a house lately - I have been playing against a lot of Merfolk, Affinity and Pod. He is obviously excellent against all three, with the added bonus that all these decks have problems removing him pre-board. I have gone back to two Vendillion Cliques because, well, I just feel that the card is very powerful. It also, subtly, combos nicely with the Blood Moons from the sideboard, allowing you to sculpt a window where you can resolve it. There is no Kiki-Jiki, which I will explain in a moment. No maindeck Spellskite is due to this version being rather far away from being over-reliant on the combo.
The spells: The issue again is power. Apart from the standard four-ofs, the two-ofs are all extremely powerful cards. Vedalken Shackles has strongly convinced me in testing. It also serves as an ersatz for other cards that are not in the maindeck, or in the 75, among them Spreading Seas, Threads of Disloyalty and Dismember. Spell Snare, on the other hand, deals with several problematic cards (Voice of Resurgence, Tarmogoyf, Cranial Plating, etc.) and is rarely a dead card.
The sideboard is fairly standard I think. One Dismember is plenty as you never want to draw two (and you have 4 Mages anyway). One Spellskite needs to be there because it is kind of a catch-all against a variety of decks. The Ancient Grudge/Vandalblast split is based on an insight given to me by poster Zemanjaski, who argued that there are several match-ups where you want to only bring in one Grudge anyway; Vandalblast on the other hand is supremely powerful, making it possible to pick off an early Plating or Similar or serving as a blowout if you get to five mana. The Batterskull/Keranos split has convinced me in every version of the deck so far, and with Vedalken Shackles acting as a "similar" card in the maindeck, I do not feel that more are needed. The two-ofs (Dispel, Blood Moon, Relic, EE) are again just powerful cards in the right matchups. Having cheap countermagic is indispensable against control when you are both casting Cryptic Commands; Engineered Explosives has really convinced me in testing and is good against a variety of decks.
Finally, some commentary on the cards I am not playing:
- Threads of Disloyalty: I have found this card very underwhelming, and really only want it vs. Tarmogoyf/Voice of Resurgence anyway. The Spell Snares and Shackles should help with that, even though Shackles of course still dies to Decay.
- Peek: I actually think Peek is a great card, mostly because it allows steal wins and because it cantrips early. However, I feel that it is less necessary in this version.
- Kiki-Jiki: No can do when fetching for basic islands (Shackles), and I do not really like the card anyway. I feel that trying to fit Kiki and Shackles into the same deck is too greedy.
- Counterflux: I like this card, but I do not feel that it is necessary and have come to prefer the cheaper and easier to cast Negate.
- Twisted Image/Flame Slash: Twisted Image has yet to convince me. The cantrip, when you can get it, is nice, but otherwise it is just awkward. Flame Slash is closer, especially because it kills Restos and Spellskite, so I can't help but wonder whether there should be one in the deck.
- Anger of the Gods: I have found that the aggro decks are starting to play around it, so it is really hard to get value from it. The increased presence of Merfolk (Cursecatcher) makes it even worse. Finally, as Patrick Dickmann has pointed out, this card is much stronger when you can have a Goyf on board after all is said and done.
- Combust: I feel that this is too narrow and unnecessary, given that the mirror match will side out the combo anyway. So basically a card that mainly kills Celestial Colonnade. I'd rather stick with Dismember.
- Izzet Charm: This is nice, and I would like to test one copy.
Two final thoughts: It may be the case that this deck should play 23 land, meaning an additional island. Also, it really has trouble with Thrun - but who doesn't....:-)
Anyway, thanks for reading. That's my take on UR Twin at the moment.
How does one approach the affinity matchup with RUG Twin? Game 1 feels like a throw away game and game 2 is sideboard peice? or no sideboard peice? or I lose. Its interesting as RUG twin I have heard is generally favored but the matchup feels awful. I may be playing the matchup wrong but I have played against a ton of affinity with lots of different decks (UWr, scapeshift, zoo, UR twin) and this deck has the worst matchup it seems out of all of those.
Really? I haven't had TOO much trouble with affinity game 1. Game 1 I always go for combo as affinity is too fast for beat down often times (unless they stumble and have slow starts which has happened and I've won with beatdown). I try to also be pretty smart with what I lighting bolt and what I let live. I don't fret too much about affinity game one because if they have the nut draw they have it and there's not much you can do I'm of the opinion that affinity has the best game 1 of any deck in the format. I get the feeling it is just your experience as mine hasn't been so bad but I have been wrong before.
Other then that post board it gets even better for us. Lots of lists have 2 ancient grudge, one natures claim, EE, 2 anger of the gods, spellskite (if you run those I don't) and you have a solid amount of hate for them. The plan is the same: combo off there is really not too much they can do about it.
Doesn't spellskite, illness in the ranks, thoughtseize and dismember make life a little more difficult?
That's overkill. Cut the vandalblasts and you still have an excellent affinity matchup. Illness in the ranks is absolutely the worst hate card I've ever seen btw. Postboard you're far more beatdown even in this matchup.
The difference is huge, actually. Your plan switches from majority combo or about 50/50 to plan A tempo with the goyfs, snapcasters and cryptics backed up by the plan B and threat of the combo. The difference seems slight but the way in which both decks are played is intricate and nuanced surprisngly large. I would reccomend sticking to straight UR if thats what your more familiar with.
Modern:
RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs
RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy:
UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander:
UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
1) Huntmaster was fun, and did well against Pod and 8-rack, but I probably wouldn't play him this weekend. Too fragile with all the midrange running around. Most likely 1 Thrun main is ideal, plus flex spot. Thundermaw is also a consideration, but is still weak to All of Junk's removal. It's actually possible we want a 2nd Electrolyze main. Inferno Titan is also a helluva card for you Izzet pilots out there.
2) Keranos is good but very slow. I almost want to go 2 Thrun 3 Batterskull for the Grindy matches. Prob overkill though. In any case, Thoughtseize is still a problem. Top deck well friends!
3) I'm far too new to Twin to play it this weekend. I can do fine against half the decks, but vs the grindier harder matchups I struggle too much with lines if play and Sideboarding to have an edge. To all you asking, I recommend playing what you know this weekend, rather than making major changes based on what might be "good." Half the battle is getting good matchups and strong draws, so it's best to be familiar with you deck inside and out to capitalize on the winners and scrape by in bad times.
I do think Twin will have its work cut out for it at GP Boston, but I expect at least a couple folks will Top 16. I personally am going back to the dark side and playing BGw Souls. I think it will be heavily represented at the GP and Id rather be the bad guy than lose to him. I will certainly play RUG again after next week, but in this case experience and power are too great to ignore. Good luck to you all this weekend, and may you never be paired against Thoughtseize until the finals.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
I got the same issue with Keranos. It seems to me Keranos is great when I'm ahead on the board state or there is a stalemate. It's not great when I was behind and needed a blocker/lifegain to get back into the game. I've taken out Keranos and thinking about adding a 2nd batteskull.
bg/x decks will be a very huge presence at the GP just as much as before deathrite was banned. either build to beat it or play it yourself.....or play gr tron
decks playing:
none
Uh, disagree. While I would say that Keranos is still very good against BG, he is not necessarily better.
Batterskull is worse against exactly Maelstrom Pulse (and similar effects like Rakdos Charm). So the "dies to removal" argument does apply to 'Skull, but likely not to Keranos. However, Keranos does absolutely nothing to help you stabilize against an opposing Thrun, Goyf, Scooze, or similar huge threat on their side. Assuming you are even or ahead, Keranos is probably a bit better. But when you are behind, he's not going to do much to get you back in the game unless your opponent is really low on life.
Keranos I think is still fine as a 1-of this weekend, as his effect is very unique and he performs well in specific corner cases, but I would still recommend Batterskull at the moment. They only have so many Pulse type effects, and the lifegain and threat of equipping is much more powerful when you need to turn the game around quickly. Keranos will eventually kill them too, but only given enough time. Jund decks are very good at NOT giving Twin decks much time in the lategame.
RE: Huntmaster. I understand the reasons why Huntmaster is attractive, and there are definitely cases where he is strictly better than something like Thrun, but unfortunately with the amount of removal everyone has, he's not that great in practice. Pod can Decay his flip side and generally still overcome the value you gain with their own engine. Affinity can ignore him or blast him if it's necessary. Snapcaster decks will Bolt or Path him without losing much value, and Jund decks will just run him over with removal. I understand that getting 2 life and a 2/2 is still valuable in some cases, but the truth is he's just a little to underpowered in the meta right now. Attracting removal away from your Exarch plan sounds good in theory, but in reality it's generally too late by the time you resolve Huntmaster to still attempt a combo win, and after boarding you often side out Twins in matchups where Huntmaster is good.
Thrun guarantees you a threat and is more consistent. Huntmaster has a lot more upside, but unfortunately he's not going to be sticking around in most cases to achieve his full potential.
As I said earlier, I'd recommend 2 Thrun and 3 Batterskull for GP Boston this weekend. In a meta with less BG/x, UWR, and other grindy matchups, it might be different, but that 2-card combo is the best way to overcome those decks post-board right now in my opinion.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
I expect quite a bit of BG/Jund/Junk/ like decks. Last event I played half of the top8 was BG/Junk/Jund/BW-discard-LSouls.
Main S.Seas? Playing Grim Lava? V.Shackles?
Any thoughts?
Currently I have 2 S.Seas and a V.Shackles. No Grim Lavamancers.
1 Kiki, 1 spellskite. Not to sure on those last two aswell.
Unfortunately, the more you try to warp your Twin deck around the midrange green decks, the worse your other matchups get.
Your best bet is to simply continue to practice the match up and have a good sideboard plan. In my experience, Twin actually wins the games in which they draw a lot of discard with no pressure, as they then can't beat the top of your deck and winning with the combo becomes a very real thing. The games in which they have discards + pressure (Dark Confidant or Tarmogoyf) are the actual hard games to win. You really have to hope they're stupid enough to tap out for Liliana or Lingering Souls on their turn three so you have a window to combo. Be wary, however, Slaughter Pact is a real card.
Keranos, Threads of Disloyalty, Blood Moon, Vedalken Shackles and Batterskull all go a long way to winnings games two and three. If you're smart in how you deploy it, they basically can't beat Blood Moon.
If you have green for Tarmogoyf's of your own and therefore either Scavenging Ooze or Huntmaster of the Fells, the match up is SLIGHTLY easier, but not much.
Modern:
RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs
RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy:
UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander:
UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
Really? I haven't had TOO much trouble with affinity game 1. Game 1 I always go for combo as affinity is too fast for beat down often times (unless they stumble and have slow starts which has happened and I've won with beatdown). I try to also be pretty smart with what I lighting bolt and what I let live. I don't fret too much about affinity game one because if they have the nut draw they have it and there's not much you can do I'm of the opinion that affinity has the best game 1 of any deck in the format. I get the feeling it is just your experience as mine hasn't been so bad but I have been wrong before.
Other then that post board it gets even better for us. Lots of lists have 2 ancient grudge, one natures claim, EE, 2 anger of the gods, spellskite (if you run those I don't) and you have a solid amount of hate for them. The plan is the same: combo off there is really not too much they can do about it.
Without Flame Slash, your ways to deal with Linvala, Keeper of Silence, Spellskite and troublesome card like Eidolon of Rhetoric are through Cryptic Command, Vedalken Shackles or Grim Lavamancer + Lightning Bolt as well as Snapcaster Mage + Lightning Bolt. I think the options are either too mana intensive, or too slow since some requires two cards to execute which is vulnerable to counterspell wars in my opinion. I think Flame Slash is vital to combat hate cards efficiently for just one mana.
Doesn't spellskite, illness in the ranks, thoughtseize and dismember make life a little more difficult?
Sure, but not as much as 2 Vandalblast, 2 Ancient Grudge, 1 EE, 1 Dispel, and 2 Anger of the Gods. I have a special kind of hatred for that deck.
5 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
4 Sulfur Falls
4 Deceiver Exarch
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 Pestermite
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Cryptic Command
2 Dispel
1 Electrolyze
2 Flame Slash
1 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Peek
4 Remand
4 Serum Visions
4 Splinter Twin
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Batterskull
3 Blood Moon
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Negate
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Vendilion Clique
vs normal meleria pod i go -11 combo -2 dispel +everything but 1 moon and and negate
vs kiki pod i have been doing the same but i don't side in as many moons and bring in the negate.
my question is should I be SB out the combo vs kiki? I'm just not 100% sure on the board plans and would love to get some input on the matter.