image is a fine card, id be lying if i said image never won me a game.
my deal with image is that i only wanted it for when i go to combo off with the 1 drop + 2drop with pod and that's investing a lot of life and board to it, the main reason why image was played in old lists was to kill legendary creatures which it no longer does so its not as versatile as it once was.
often its best to go for beat down with value creatures like resto, voice, scooze and go for the combo with kiki jiki if you're 100% safe to do so or if its you're only out to win.
but i lose most my games forcing the combo when i don't need too and image forces it. at least that's my experience so far with kiki pod and image.
kiki pod atm usually has a stock list of roughly 70 cards then the other 5 are personal choices depending on you're play style i guess.
Maybe if the temptation to go for it when it's wrong to do so is too strong, then it might be right to cut the image. However, a main part about this deck is knowing when it's right to go for it. Image is usually a card that just let's you win out of no where. I see image as the "oh *****" button when I am dead on board and have to go off with it or use it in an unconventional manner.
I played a few sets vs. Bogles and UR twin last night. My results were kind of skewed since there was a few unfortunate draws on their part. However, Image was an all star vs. bogles, being able to copy a Finks and persist a few times forced him to slow down and deal with my board. Being able to copy a harmonic sliver as well and blowing up all his enchantments would swing the game in my favor.
I'm putting a Kiki Pod deck together in paper, and I've got everything I need except for the Groves of the Burnwillows. Until I get those, would you guys recommend putting in a playset of Copperline Gorges or maybe some Rootbound Crags for the time being? Or some more shocks?
If I was going to play that version, I would just play the UWR Twin deck.
I think it comes down to whether you feel that Cryptic Command or Birthing Pod is the better card at this point.
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I don't see how you guys are cutting image, the things that you can do with it are just insane and can get you out of so many jams. I have been able to copy restos to untap zealous to pod to kiki for the win. I have been able to copy redcaps to just win on the spot with pod, copying voice, to podding it for witness to get back image. That card can just do so much if you are creative with it. I never end up siding it out. It is such a bullet that does crazy things. I feel like you almost always have an out if you are playing image
+1^
my experience with image has been a lot of value....however like the Brian's list from the winning GP didn't have it, so I think its looked as like 'training wheels' card....but I must like training wheels then!lol as 8/10 times I play it is creates a play my opponent either can't deal with or puts me in a better position or just flat out wins..I don't think I've sided it out but once or twice in total.
If I was going to play that version, I would just play the UWR Twin deck.
I think it comes down to whether you feel that Cryptic Command or Birthing Pod is the better card at this point.
And whether you want UWR Twin's decent mana base or our crappy one... I've gotta side with Koopa here. Once you're playing Twin and Wall of Omens as 4-ofs, why not just play UWR Twin?
The deck I linked to doesn't play Splinter Twin. And look, I'm not being a tireless advocate for that Sea Gate Oracle deck, so let's clear that up right off the bat.
An intelligent player should be lining up what the two decks can do, and lining up the Sea Gate deck vs a regular Kiki Pod deck. So you're going to ask whether you want to:
Play Remands over creatures
Play Splinter Twin and Deceiver Exarch together, both of which require the other to be good - or - play an array of creatures that might be the wrong thing at the wrong time (like drawing Spellskite against Affinity or Linvala against Burn)
Play clunkers like Deceiver Exarch that can also combo or play Kitchen Finks, which is better outside of combo but also often powerless
Play Remand or Voice of Resurgence or Wall of Omens, comparing all three decks
Play Cryptic plus Snapcaster or play Birthing Pod plus an array of searchable, good hate cards
Remember that the same arguments apply to Twin - why would you want to play UWR when you can play UR, why would you play Tarmogoyf when you can be straight UR, why would you put Kiki-Jiki into a general UWR Tempo deck, etc.
I don't have definitive answers on any of this. All I can say is that it's the height of foolishness to dismiss a deck that comes in 1st and 2nd in two recent Modern Premier events. That's arch armchair-general behavior.
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Koopa's comment was in response to my saying "Why not play Twin because it has a ton of synergy with so many of those cards."
Your comments about Twin are largely incorrect. Splinter Twin is by no means a bad card on its own, neither is Deceiver Exarch. I've run them as 3-ofs in Kiki Pod in the past, and I've had a lot of success with them. As a Twin player, Deceiver Exarch is arguably one of the best cards in the deck. But that's beside the point.
I'm not dismissing the deck or its finishes, I'm saying that I wouldn't make the changes, but if he made them and had those finishes, good for him. In fact, the guy who piloted the deck to those finishes is a former GP champion and Rookie of the Year, and he's been coming up with awesome Kiki Pod variants for months if not years. I just think this particular list is sacrificing some of our reactive elements to dig more, and I don't really agree with that.
the image is really not that necessary. sure it can be great a couple of times, but its a card which usually gets boarded out 80% of the time, it's so easily dealt with. plus if im boarding a card out 80% of the time its better just to part ways with it.
I disagree, and I think we board very differently, because I don't board out image that often.. It's not always good, but the possibilities it opens up are many, and it sometimes saves you when nothing else can.
I agree with this statement. Don't fall for the "it's bad in game 2, so it must be bad in game 1" trap. It's one of the most common pitfalls for competitive players.
Forge-Tender is decent, but I feel like an extra Spellskite would just be better, reason being that it protects against nonred spells, has 4 toughness, and can be Podded for.
Yeah, the main weakness of Forge Tender is that it can't be podded for. It's a great card no doubt, and is fantastic vs. Anger, but it's much harder for us to run than Melira Pod since we lack Ranger of Eos. I find that Negate and Spellskite together do what she can well enough. Running Ranger for value is not a terrible idea though - at worst, it searches up two Hierarchs and swings for 5. I might look into that.
I'm putting a Kiki Pod deck together in paper, and I've got everything I need except for the Groves of the Burnwillows. Until I get those, would you guys recommend putting in a playset of Copperline Gorges or maybe some Rootbound Crags for the time being? Or some more shocks?
I would go for Copperlines over Rootbound. Turn 1 dork is required for most hands.
Agreed, copperlines are probably the best alternative. I still run them when I can't borrow my friend's Groves and they work fine. Much better to come in untapped turn 1 than lategame.
Local 52 man $500 event:
I’ll recount the games I lost, since I can’t really remember the games I win.
R1: RUG Twin 2-1
G1 I failed to assess the game state. I had both Linvala and Spellskite out, but not a whole lot else going on with an active Pod. I didn’t apply enough pressure (durdling with value instead of trying to combo him) which resulted in him bouncing my skite and double bolting the Linvala EOT.
*I typically play Melira Pod, but one thing I’ve found with Kiki Pod is that it doesn’t beat down very well (Groves gaining them life, fewer Gavony, Finks, Higher overall curve etc).
R2: UWR Geist 1-0 (Opponent had a game loss)
I think he was pretty tilted by the game loss (deck list error) and gave me infinite Voice tokens throughout the game. All he had was a Geist, and I had an army of blockers.
R3: UWR Flash 2-1
G1 he just got mad value off Path/Snaps/Resto/CC. I drew Pod way too late and Rev sealed the game. G2 I had Pod T2. G3 I bait out his wrath, then got there with Obstinate Baloth/Glen-Elendra/Gavony beats.
R4: Affinity 2-0
G1 opponent misplays by not instant speed equipping a plating to put me on 1, which gave me time to use the two Chords in my hand. G2 he keeps a real loose hand with Blood moons, but my BoP/WoR easily gets around it.
*Blood Moon is pretty average against this deck unless you have inf Bolt/Electrolyze
R5: Melira Pod 1-2
G1 we both just playing out our hand. He was the first to draw Pod, but I had one turn before he can go off. I’ve bagging a Conscript in my hand with a Redcap in play. The problem is he had a Spellskite in play! I untap, drew and played it with lightning speed and went to grab the Pod, but he was one of the best players around, so obviously didn’t fall for it.
G2 he kept a one lander BOP, I had Staticaster. G3 he pontiffs me early, leaving me with 3 lands, but he was stuck on 2 lands and a WoR as well after I Fiery Justiced his dorks. I had a Pod that got Slivered for no value. He had some VoRs and a Finks, while I just had an Exarch holding the fort. The only thing keeping me in the game was a Mindcensor (he had 3-4 cards in hand and didn’t play anything, so I assumed it was a combination of Pod/Chords/4+ drops). I drew a Witness getting back the Pod, but he drew a Seer which let him Pontiff (was haunting a VoR) basically my board and it was game from there.
*The overall higher curve here really screwed me (Had a couple of Restos and a Redcap in hand).
R6: UWR Control I.D
Top 8: RUG Twin 2-1
G1 I was constricted by my mana, but I did draw the one of Path (only 1 white source). On T5, I had to Path the exarch upkeep to get around Remand. I drew a Witness which was sick, but it wasn’t enough since he had Pestermite EOT, into Remand and Twin.
It can be podded for if you have an elemental token in play from a dead Voice of Resurgence. You can also chord for it relatively easy as well, which seems pretty good.
Ranger seems pretty bad in this deck. At least with Melira they can search for a combo piece with him. Here you just get dorks and it's not worth it. There's nothing I would want to cut for it either.
I've found Kiki to have a great pounder back up if you don't get your mana accelerator after a mulligan
I guess it's all dependent on the rare interchangeable (Ranger of Eos, Phantasmal Image, etc)creature in each deck.
That's when Gavony Township combined with Voice, S. Ooze and Restoration Angel become great big beaters on the ground and in the air.
You're given either time to beat them over the head or stall with big blockers to get the combo
@BlackMist: The way I see it, Obstinate Baloth, Thragtusk and Loxodon Hierarch all compete for the same sideboard slot. For me, most of the match-ups where they come in are against red decks where Anger of the Gods is live. Obstinate blanks Raven's Crime and Liliana, but those decks typically lead with a Thoughtseize or IoK which immediately gives up the play.
Our curve is already really high so that makes me shy away from Thrag. If I'm podding into a 5 mana creature, I generally want to win on the spot, not get a 2 for 1.
I really like Thragtusk but I currently am playing O. Baloth for it's interactivity against Liliana and the fact that being a 4 drop vs a 5 drop against Burn can be relevant.
my deal with image is that i only wanted it for when i go to combo off with the 1 drop + 2drop with pod and that's investing a lot of life and board to it, the main reason why image was played in old lists was to kill legendary creatures which it no longer does so its not as versatile as it once was.
often its best to go for beat down with value creatures like resto, voice, scooze and go for the combo with kiki jiki if you're 100% safe to do so or if its you're only out to win.
but i lose most my games forcing the combo when i don't need too and image forces it. at least that's my experience so far with kiki pod and image.
kiki pod atm usually has a stock list of roughly 70 cards then the other 5 are personal choices depending on you're play style i guess.
Rest in peace my one true love: Kikipod
I think it comes down to whether you feel that Cryptic Command or Birthing Pod is the better card at this point.
+1^
my experience with image has been a lot of value....however like the Brian's list from the winning GP didn't have it, so I think its looked as like 'training wheels' card....but I must like training wheels then!lol as 8/10 times I play it is creates a play my opponent either can't deal with or puts me in a better position or just flat out wins..I don't think I've sided it out but once or twice in total.
And whether you want UWR Twin's decent mana base or our crappy one... I've gotta side with Koopa here. Once you're playing Twin and Wall of Omens as 4-ofs, why not just play UWR Twin?
An intelligent player should be lining up what the two decks can do, and lining up the Sea Gate deck vs a regular Kiki Pod deck. So you're going to ask whether you want to:
Play Remands over creatures
Play Splinter Twin and Deceiver Exarch together, both of which require the other to be good - or - play an array of creatures that might be the wrong thing at the wrong time (like drawing Spellskite against Affinity or Linvala against Burn)
Play clunkers like Deceiver Exarch that can also combo or play Kitchen Finks, which is better outside of combo but also often powerless
Play Remand or Voice of Resurgence or Wall of Omens, comparing all three decks
Play Cryptic plus Snapcaster or play Birthing Pod plus an array of searchable, good hate cards
Remember that the same arguments apply to Twin - why would you want to play UWR when you can play UR, why would you play Tarmogoyf when you can be straight UR, why would you put Kiki-Jiki into a general UWR Tempo deck, etc.
I don't have definitive answers on any of this. All I can say is that it's the height of foolishness to dismiss a deck that comes in 1st and 2nd in two recent Modern Premier events. That's arch armchair-general behavior.
Your comments about Twin are largely incorrect. Splinter Twin is by no means a bad card on its own, neither is Deceiver Exarch. I've run them as 3-ofs in Kiki Pod in the past, and I've had a lot of success with them. As a Twin player, Deceiver Exarch is arguably one of the best cards in the deck. But that's beside the point.
I'm not dismissing the deck or its finishes, I'm saying that I wouldn't make the changes, but if he made them and had those finishes, good for him. In fact, the guy who piloted the deck to those finishes is a former GP champion and Rookie of the Year, and he's been coming up with awesome Kiki Pod variants for months if not years. I just think this particular list is sacrificing some of our reactive elements to dig more, and I don't really agree with that.
I disagree, and I think we board very differently, because I don't board out image that often.. It's not always good, but the possibilities it opens up are many, and it sometimes saves you when nothing else can.
Also this.
on another note has anyone tried forge tender in the sideboard?
Regarding running a 4-color deck without fetchlands:
MostlyLost on Cockatrice.
I would go for Copperlines over Rootbound. Turn 1 dork is required for most hands.
Regarding running a 4-color deck without fetchlands:
MostlyLost on Cockatrice.
1 Breeding Pool
2 Gavony Township
1 Fire-lit Thicket
1 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Deceiver Exarch
1 Eternal Witness
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Murderous Redcap
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Restoration Angel
2 Voice of Resurgence
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Spellskite
2 Wall of Roots
1 Zealous Conscripts
4 Birthing Pod
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Chord of Calling
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Avalanche Riders
1 Combust
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Fiery Justice
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Negate
2 Path to Exile
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
Local 52 man $500 event:
I’ll recount the games I lost, since I can’t really remember the games I win.
R1: RUG Twin 2-1
G1 I failed to assess the game state. I had both Linvala and Spellskite out, but not a whole lot else going on with an active Pod. I didn’t apply enough pressure (durdling with value instead of trying to combo him) which resulted in him bouncing my skite and double bolting the Linvala EOT.
*I typically play Melira Pod, but one thing I’ve found with Kiki Pod is that it doesn’t beat down very well (Groves gaining them life, fewer Gavony, Finks, Higher overall curve etc).
R2: UWR Geist 1-0 (Opponent had a game loss)
I think he was pretty tilted by the game loss (deck list error) and gave me infinite Voice tokens throughout the game. All he had was a Geist, and I had an army of blockers.
R3: UWR Flash 2-1
G1 he just got mad value off Path/Snaps/Resto/CC. I drew Pod way too late and Rev sealed the game. G2 I had Pod T2. G3 I bait out his wrath, then got there with Obstinate Baloth/Glen-Elendra/Gavony beats.
R4: Affinity 2-0
G1 opponent misplays by not instant speed equipping a plating to put me on 1, which gave me time to use the two Chords in my hand. G2 he keeps a real loose hand with Blood moons, but my BoP/WoR easily gets around it.
*Blood Moon is pretty average against this deck unless you have inf Bolt/Electrolyze
R5: Melira Pod 1-2
G1 we both just playing out our hand. He was the first to draw Pod, but I had one turn before he can go off. I’ve bagging a Conscript in my hand with a Redcap in play. The problem is he had a Spellskite in play! I untap, drew and played it with lightning speed and went to grab the Pod, but he was one of the best players around, so obviously didn’t fall for it.
G2 he kept a one lander BOP, I had Staticaster. G3 he pontiffs me early, leaving me with 3 lands, but he was stuck on 2 lands and a WoR as well after I Fiery Justiced his dorks. I had a Pod that got Slivered for no value. He had some VoRs and a Finks, while I just had an Exarch holding the fort. The only thing keeping me in the game was a Mindcensor (he had 3-4 cards in hand and didn’t play anything, so I assumed it was a combination of Pod/Chords/4+ drops). I drew a Witness getting back the Pod, but he drew a Seer which let him Pontiff (was haunting a VoR) basically my board and it was game from there.
*The overall higher curve here really screwed me (Had a couple of Restos and a Redcap in hand).
R6: UWR Control I.D
Top 8: RUG Twin 2-1
G1 I was constricted by my mana, but I did draw the one of Path (only 1 white source). On T5, I had to Path the exarch upkeep to get around Remand. I drew a Witness which was sick, but it wasn’t enough since he had Pestermite EOT, into Remand and Twin.
Top 4: Split
Ranger seems pretty bad in this deck. At least with Melira they can search for a combo piece with him. Here you just get dorks and it's not worth it. There's nothing I would want to cut for it either.
RG Xenagos, God of Revels
BG Meren of the Clan Nel Toth
GW Arahbo, Roar of the World
I guess it's all dependent on the rare interchangeable (Ranger of Eos, Phantasmal Image, etc)creature in each deck.
That's when Gavony Township combined with Voice, S. Ooze and Restoration Angel become great big beaters on the ground and in the air.
You're given either time to beat them over the head or stall with big blockers to get the combo
Our curve is already really high so that makes me shy away from Thrag. If I'm podding into a 5 mana creature, I generally want to win on the spot, not get a 2 for 1.
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
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